Lady Stoneheart: Why bring Cat back?

[TheReal_Rebel]

I was just writing in the "Controversial Chapter" thread that it seems inevitable that Catelyn--Lady Stoneheart--would meet up with one or more of her children. Given what's left of the Tully's converging together, the BWOB and the proximity to the Vale, it seems Sansa is the most likely to meet up with her.

If not, why bring her back at all?

We know how one of GRRM's themes is how the effects of War and personal catastrophe's can change people: Jaime; Septon Meribald; the Hound; Tyrion; Jon are all changed significantly by the physical, personal conflicts they're in.

But why kill off then bring back the grieving Stark/Tully matriarch?

What purpose does she serve?

We know from Thoros of Myr, LS has changed the Brothers Without Banners mission from one of protecting, feeding and aiding the Small Folks, to one of exacting and unyielding vengeance from anyone even associated with the Frys.

So what?

And if GRRM doesn't mean to have Catelyn meet up in some way, whether in disguise as LS or not, trying to convince a disbelieving Stark child she is their mutilated mother, what then?

[Tywin Manderly]

Perhaps to annoy the Cat-haters? ;)

[sarah.jenice]

I think she needs to come across one of her children, too, and agree that Sansa is the most likely candidate.

I could see LS giving her life force to save one her children the same way that Beric passes it on to her.

[TheReal_Rebel]

I think she needs to come across one of her children, too, and agree that Sansa is the most likely candidate.

I could see LS giving her life force to save one her children the same way that Beric passes it on to her.

That is an excellent point! Hadn't at all thought of that. Wouldn't it be ironic if she was the one to breathe life back into Jon Snow!

[WeaselPie]

Cat didn't like Jon. Can didn't feel at home near weirwoods. Cat thinks Bran and Rickon are dead. She may think Sansa is alive. She is not sure if Arya is alive.

She was brought back

1). To reunite with one of her kids

2). To hold Brienne and Jaime to their vows, then see above

3). To resolve her aversion to Jon

4). To resolve her aversion to the Weirwoods/Heart Trees which are now associated with her son Bran

5). To speak a truth that she knew, but suppressed, regarding Jon's background

[TheReal_Rebel]

Cat didn't like Jon. Can didn't feel at home near weirwoods. Cat thinks Bran and Rickon are dead. She may think Sansa is alive. She is not sure if Arya is alive.

She was brought back

1). To reunite with one of her kids

2). To hold Brienne and Jaime to their vows, then see above

3). To resolve her aversion to Jon

4). To resolve her aversion to the Weirwoods/Heart Trees which are now associated with her son Bran

5). To speak a truth that she knew, but suppressed, regarding Jon's background

Wow! Great answers. These are again, things I hadn't thought of. But 5) I don't remembering it even being inferred that she had knowledge of Jon's true parentage. Is there anywhere in the books I should look?

Also depending on what child she meets, would they even believe she is so she says she is? She might frighten Sansa so much, all Sansa could feel is repelled.

So LS/Catelyn is on a subconscious Redemption Quest. To somehow get back to who she once was. From LS back to Cat.

Might she try to seek out Bran?

[David Selig]

Wow! Great answers. These are again, things I hadn't thought of. But 5) I don't remembering it even being inferred that she had knowledge of Jon's true parentage. Is there anywhere in the books I should look?

No. There's absolutely nothing like that.

That is an excellent point! Hadn't at all thought of that. Wouldn't it be ironic if she was the one to breathe life back into Jon Snow!

"Ironic" isn't the word I'd use. More like "sickening" and "terrible writing". But that's just me. :cool4:

[Ser Moose Daigle]

So she can kill LF...

[TheReal_Rebel]

So she can kill LF...

Who doesn't want to kill LF? ;D

[Annara Snow]

Wow! Great answers. These are again, things I hadn't thought of. But 5) I don't remembering it even being inferred that she had knowledge of Jon's true parentage. Is there anywhere in the books I should look?

Also depending on what child she meets, would they even believe she is so she says she is? She might frighten Sansa so much, all Sansa could feel is repelled.

So LS/Catelyn is on a subconscious Redemption Quest.

Might she try to seek out Bran?

Sansa is not a child anymore, and is not that weak or frightened as some people think - I would in fact argue that she was always stronger than people give her credit for, as seen in the moment when her compassion won over the fear and she was able to comfort others (we saw it with the Hound early on in AGOT, and again at the end of ACOK, as well as when she was giving motivational speeches to the frightened women during the Blackwater battle). I see Sansa as just the right person to overcome her shock and revulsion due to pity and love for her mother.

On the other hand, it would be interesting to see a meeting between LS and Arya, because Arya was particularly affected by her mother's death, because she's IMO more similar to Cat in personality (especially with her anger and fixation on revenge), because the fact she called herself "Cat" hints at the deeper connection between the two, and because there is more unfinished business between Cat and Arya than between Cat and Sansa. (Arya wasn't aware that her mother really loved her, because Cat was trying to teach her to be a 'lady' and Arya felt that she was a disappointment.)

I feel that Arya's journey and identity is more strongly connected to her relationship with her mother. Sansa's is more strongly connected to Ned and the Stark identity ("You are not my father. My father is Eddard Stark of Winterfell") and that's consistent with who I think the girls resemble the most, personality-wise.

I'm not sure what WeaselPie is referring to re; Jon. Catelyn never had any idea about Jon's parentage, other than what Ned had told her ("He is my blood, don't ask me, I can't tell you anything else") and the rumours she had heard (Ashara Dayne).

[RoamingRonin]

It's not so much bringing Cat back but continuing Catelyn Stark's character arc. Catelyn was always going to become Lady Stoneheart. The foreshadowing was there. I guess GRRM wanted her character to be the embodiment of grief and revenge. Her story-line is very meta: Catelyn is killed unjustly like so many other characters have been but she gets to come back and have her revenge. But it's not perfect - she isn't Catelyn Stark reborn, its not as pretty as Beric Dondarrion, and her vengeance is almost cruel.

People assume she'll meet one of her children but it's more likely she'll meet the Blackfish or Edmure. The Blackfish is on the run and it's possible she'll stage an ambush of Edmure's caravan to Casterly Rock. I'd rather her meet her uncle and brother than Sansa or Arya.

[ladytiger]

Cat didn't like Jon. Can didn't feel at home near weirwoods. Cat thinks Bran and Rickon are dead. She may think Sansa is alive. She is not sure if Arya is alive.

She was brought back

1). To reunite with one of her kids

2). To hold Brienne and Jaime to their vows, then see above

3). To resolve her aversion to Jon

4). To resolve her aversion to the Weirwoods/Heart Trees which are now associated with her son Bran

5). To speak a truth that she knew, but suppressed, regarding Jon's background

I agree. :agree:

[WeaselPie]

Wow! Great answers. These are again, things I hadn't thought of. But 5) I don't remembering it even being inferred that she had knowledge of Jon's true parentage. Is there anywhere in the books I should look?

Also depending on what child she meets, would they even believe she is so she says she is? She might frighten Sansa so much, all Sansa could feel is repelled.

So LS/Catelyn is on a subconscious Redemption Quest. To somehow get back to who she once was. From LS back to Cat.

Might she try to seek out Bran?

She talks quite a bit about protecting her children's inheritance. Not a stretch to think she demanded Robb have an age-advantage over Jon. Even if she didn't know Jon's true parentage, she could certainly have agreed to fudge his birth-date.

[TheReal_Rebel]

Sansa is not a child anymore, and is not that weak or frightened as some people think - I would in fact argue that she was always stronger than people give her credit for, as seen in the moment when her compassion won over the fear and she was able to comfort others (we saw it with the Hound early on in AGOT, and again at the end of ACOK, as well as when she was giving motivational speeches to the frightened women during the Blackwater battle). I see Sansa as just the right person to overcome her shock and revulsion due to pity and love for her mother.

On the other hand, it would be interesting to see a meeting between LS and Arya, because Arya was particularly affected by her mother's death, because she's IMO more similar to Cat in personality (especially with her anger and fixation on revenge), because the fact she called herself "Cat" hints at the deeper connection between the two, and because there is more unfinished business between Cat and Arya than between Cat and Sansa. (Arya wasn't aware that her mother really loved her, because Cat was trying to teach her to be a 'lady' and Arya felt that she was a disappointment.)

I feel that Arya's journey and identity is more strongly connected to her relationship with her mother. Sansa's is more strongly connected to Ned and the Stark identity ("You are not my father. My father is Eddard Stark of Winterfell") and that's consistent with who I think the girls resemble the most, personality-wise.

I'm not sure what WeaselPie is referring to re; Jon. Catelyn never had any idea about Jon's parentage, other than what Ned had told her ("He is my blood, don't ask me, I can't tell you anything else") and the rumours she had heard (Ashara Dayne).

Ha! More things I hadn't realized!

You're right about Cat being reflected in Arya's anger and desire for revenge.

That gives another purpose to Cat being brought back, as a cautionary tale to us & to Arya of what she might become. A waste of the gift Beric gave her.

I didn't mean that Sansa is a child, just that she is a child of Cat's. "Offspring" is too...clinical.

[WeaselPie]

I'm not sure what WeaselPie is referring to re; Jon. Catelyn never had any idea about Jon's parentage, other than what Ned had told her ("He is my blood, don't ask me, I can't tell you anything else") and the rumours she had heard (Ashara Dayne).

I give Cat more credit than that. She pushed the issue regarding rumors she heard, and Ned shot them down and forbid them. That doesn't mean Cat lost her questions about who Jon is. No, I don't think Cat knows for sure who Jon's parents are, but I don't think she ever stopped wondering.

And I could easily see Cat, when confronted with "Ned's bastard" insisting they fudge his birth date, to protect Robb. And Ned would agree.

[Annara Snow]

I give Cat more credit than that. She pushed the issue regarding rumors she heard, and Ned shot them down and forbid them. That doesn't mean Cat lost her questions about who Jon is. No, I don't think Cat knows for sure who Jon's parents are, but I don't think she ever stopped wondering.

And I could easily see Cat, when confronted with "Ned's bastard" insisting they fudge his birth date, to protect Robb. And Ned would agree.

I'm not sure what you mean? You're suggesting Jon is older than Robb? Why would you think so?

And why would Jon be a danger to Robb's inheritance? Unless he's a trueborn son of Ned, which he certainly is not, he doesn't have the right to inheritance over any of Cat's kids, anyway.

[Beorn Snow]

Reverse Batman:

She´s not the hero Westeros needs but the one it deserves.

[Annara Snow]

I didn't mean that Sansa is a child, just that she is a child of Cat's. "Offspring" is too...clinical.

Oh, I didn't think you were calling her a child, I was just trying to stress that she's matured and would be more able to deal with frightening situations.

[GinesthoiOfIce]

I would definitely really like to see a Stoneheart/Sansa reunion. I think Sansa would actually cope with it : She has already seen her father die, his head preserved in tar, has been with Sandor Clegane and got past his facial scars. Unless Stoneheart shows any sign of craziness that might remind Sansa of Lysa Arryn and her attempt to kill her, I really think Sansa will do fine. Her "death encounters" have been so linked with people she cared about (or used to care about in Joffrey's case) that she would accept Stoneheart (Who is still recognizable as Catelyn Stark, as Brienne did recognize her).

[David Selig]

I give Cat more credit than that. She pushed the issue regarding rumors she heard, and Ned shot them down and forbid them. That doesn't mean Cat lost her questions about who Jon is. No, I don't think Cat knows for sure who Jon's parents are, but I don't think she ever stopped wondering. .

Wondering is one thing, but there's no more than that. There's no indication that Cat knew but suppressed the truth about Jon's parents.