What, exactly, is wrong with Lysa?

[DaarioKnowsBest]

I'm pretty sure the point made against Lysa is that she murdered her husband and let her family die on the orders of a sociopath she was obsessed with. Yes, she had a hard life, that much is certain, but it doesn't excuse her behavior. Almost every character in these books endure incredible hardships, yet almost none become bonkers as a result.

Also, you'd have to excuse Ramsay, Gregor, and all the other scumbags of the series.

They're all products of traumatic environments too.

[Winter's Knight]

The OP asked "what's wrong with Lysa" and people are answeing that a shitty father, a cold marriage and years of miscarriages have taken their toll on her-how is that excusing or condoning her?

[WeddinGuest]

Lysa is a horrible person who murders people, is full of prejudice, and engages in victim-blaming. Lysa was also victimized as a teenage girl and had an awful thing done to her by her father.

The two are not mutually exclusive. (See also: Cersei.)

Quoting this for truth. I'm not saying Lysa's past excuses her own crimes. It also seems she hated and resented Catelyn long before LFGate, and I wonder if she'd have wanted LF as much as she did if he HADN'T been interested in Cat. Also, while she herself wanted to marry Petyr (and did) no matter what, she's also happy to deny Sansa any sexual agency of her own and force her to marry her cousin SweetRobin. Much like Cersei, she seems to have the attitude, not that "the rules are unfair and should be changed", but "the rules shouldn't apply to ME because I'm a special snowflake -- they're fine for other women, though!"

I also don't think her murder of Jon Arryn was justified. I doubt his having sex with Lysa was anywhere as traumatic as Ramsay/Jeyne P. I'm sure that most of the time Lysa just lay back and thought of River -- well, maybe not Riverrun if she was angry at Hoster. Maybe she thought of Petyr. She also seems to have likely kept Petyr as a lover during her marriage, in light of her talk about how she plans to scream during their wedding night after having to keep quiet for so long; I think she literally meant having to keep quiet during sex because obviously being caught having sex with Petyr while still married would be a Very Bad Thing. (Though I know some readers think she was just talking about having to keep her feelings for him a secret -- either way, it seems Hoster never told Jon that it was LF who had impregnated Lysa. Since Jon doesn't seem to have been a complete idiot, and he would have been to give LF the time of day if he knew he was his wife's old lover.)

Also, it is curious as to why the Conventional Wisdom seems to be that Sybell Spicer was an evil bitch for tricking her daughter into drinking moon tea, but Hoster was just doing what any man in his position would have? Even though (and I doubt this parallel was accidental by GRRM) both of them have daughters who "comfort" unsuitable wounded boys? Is that based on the Stark/Tully filter, that Sybell acted against the Stark/Tully interests so she is evil, while Hoster acted to support Stark/Tully interests? Or is it because Sybell is a woman, and Hoster a man? I think what Hoster did is considered excessive even per Westerosi morals, and that he himself realizes he messed up. (And while Jon didn't deserve to die, he must have been aware of what Hoster did; if he'd believed Lysa merely had a convenient miscarriage, then he very well might have refused to marry her saying "who's to say she won't miscarry MY babies" -- and hence, you could argue at the very least "deserved" to be cuckolded by Lysa.)

It's also interesting that the Blackfish chooses to go the Vale after his argument with Hoster. Was it just the closest place to go? Did he leave only because he got tired of Hoster pressuring him to marry? Or did he know of what Hoster had done to Lysa, and decided that was the last straw, that he couldn't serve such a man in good conscience? If so, that gives more proof that what Hoster did was considered excessive even by his contemporaries. (You can argue then that BF was a hypocrite in pressuring Edmure to marry Roslin, but he doesn't pressure him nearly as much in the book as he does on TV, and I think BF really did believe what he was saying to Edmure about his failures. He might have been biased, and WANTED to believe what he's saying to justify himself, but I don't think he was deliberately lying).

I think GRRM shows us "Westerosi values" but certainly doesn't expect us to embrace them, and IMHO, if the only way to enjoy the books is to accept "Westerosi values" without question, and adopt sexist, classist worldviews for my own, I wouldn't bother. He also shows us many characters who challenge the status quo, and would actually be in the wrong if they were judged strictly by "Westerosi values" -- yet few do so.

[EstEst]

Ah, the old "21st century morals vs Westeros morals" debate. While I certainly am not in the "harshly judge the Westerosi with no regard at all for culural differences" camp, I think the idea some posters seem to embrace, that per "Westerosi morals", Lysa should have just accepted the status quo and resigned herself to being a piece of chattel and a brood mare with no sexual agency, is going too far, especially if the conclusion is that Lysa's ultimate sin was not (1) murdering her husband or (2) abandoning the Tullys/Starks, but her rejecting the status quo in ANY way.

Okay, to those who think it's cheating to bring in RL examples of women being abused and being denied agency. All right, how about using in-world examples, then? I think that if you're going to judge Lysa by "Westerosi morals", and accept that women in Westeros have no agency, and that any woman who claims any control over her life is an evil "witch", then you must judge EVERY woman by "Westerosi morals" in order to remain consistent. If that's the case, then you have to agree with Sybell Spicer (who, much like Hoster, tricked her child into drinking moon tea) that Jeyne Westerling was being a disobedient "willful child" when she refused to give up her crown and dared to proclaim her love for Robb in public. You have to say Sansa should have just had sex with Tyrion, had his babies, and dutifully gone to the executioner's block instead of daring to escape her forced marriage. That Dany should have dutifully gone to Vaes Dothrak and faded into obscurity as one of the dosh khaleen,

<snip> Now, you can certainly disagree with the MEANS Lysa uses to assert her own agency, but to say she had no right to assert her agency AT ALL <snip>... just because she's a "crazy bitch"? Do I have to point out how biased this is?

Also, Hoster Tully himself comes to regret his actions. <snip> Hoster himself seems to disagree with you.

I wouldn't say that anybody on this board embrace the idea that Lysa should have resigned herself to being a brood mare. Or that she had no right to assert her agency at all. That's an exaggeration. The point is that she trapped herself in unwanted marriage first of all because of her own mistake, namely, because she got (1) obsessed and (2) pregnant. (sorry about stating that so cold and matter-of-factly but that is the fact.) After that Hoster had little choice in choosing a groom. I personally don't see anything cruel on his side in the marriage itself. Provided Lysa was not exactly forced to; she still could refuse to give the marriage vows and live peacefully in her father's house, unmarried. That would be psychologically difficult, sure, but if her marriage is seen by someone as everyday raping, then perhaps this choice would be more merciful. (at least physically).

I understand it that what Hoster came to regret in his last days was giving Lysa the moon tea, not marrying her to Jon Arryn. I never defended him regarding that abortion, so I cannot see how would he disagree with me.

By the way (sorry again but I cannot change the way I feel) I would be glad if Sansa gave Tyrion a bit of credit and tried to find something positive in him. Perhaps they would make a good couple eventually. A marriage based on mutual respect and good humors is not a worst thing you could expect of a marriage with a dwarf.

Also, you'd have to excuse Ramsay, Gregor, and all the other scumbags of the series.

They're all products of traumatic environments too.

I have to disagree with you here. Ramsey and Gregor are in a different league compared to Lysa. She only murdered once (well, almost twice), and there's no indications from the text she would find especial enjoyment in that, or in torturing her victims-to-be.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

I have to disagree with you here. Ramsey and Gregor are in a different league compared to Lysa. She only murdered once (well, almost twice), and there's no indications from the text she would find especial enjoyment in that, or in torturing her victims-to-be.

I only said it with the assumption that someone was defending her actions, I'm not sure now if anybody was.

I'm not really swayed by any she's not as bad as them argument.

Who knows how many innocent ppl she may have tossed out the moon door in a rage, and with her child abuse, IMO there's enough there for me to consider her a scumbag not worth defending.

That's if anybody was trying to defend her, but I don't think anybody was trying to do that

[Princess_of_Sunspear]

I don't think Lysa was that stable to begin with- then again she was only 14. But what she did to Littlefinger was pretty creepy for a 14 year old girl- she had sex with him when he was drunk, injured and delusional. She practically raped him and was obsessed with him ever since. :ack:

[WeddinGuest]

EstEst, I realize that you personally don't support Hoster forcing Lysa to abort her baby. However, other posters have NOT made that disclaimer, or suggest that Lysa is to blame for Hoster's decisions by getting pregnant in the first place. As for the idea that :

Lysa was not exactly forced to; she still could refuse to give the marriage vows and live peacefully in her father's house, unmarried.

This is certainly a possibility, however, Lysa herself seems to believe that if she didn't marry Jon Arryn, Hoster would have kicked her out of Riverrun, and while technically she had the choice to accept that, I think saying "Lysa had the choice to marry Jon or be disowned, so she wasn't a victim in the situation" is as fair as saying "Jeyne Poole had the choice to pretend to be Arya and marry Ramsay, or be a whore who gets whipped for her customers' sick jollies" and claim this means Jeyne wasn't a victim of the Boltons and their lackeys, either.

I would be glad if Sansa gave Tyrion a bit of credit and tried to find something positive in him. Perhaps they would make a good couple eventually. A marriage based on mutual respect and good humors is not a worst thing you could expect of a marriage with a dwarf.

But Sansa DOES give "Tyrion a bit of credit"; she exercises the limited power she has in her marriage by choosing him over Lancel because he is "not as bad as the rest" of the Lannisters, recalls him as being "kind" even after she leaves him, and comes very close to telling Lysa that Tyrion chose not to have sex with her for good reasons. Also, her main issue with Tyrion isn't that he was a dwarf, it was that he was a Lannister; otherwise, she could have chosen Lancel...well, IMO, Tywin would likely have over-ridden that, since he's trying to assert control not only over Sansa, but over Tyrion as well. But Tyrion DID offer her that choice. Now, if your point is that, IF Sansa had wound up stuck with Tyrion for life, that trying to actually form a relationship with him might not have been a bad idea, I'd agree with that. However, I DO disagree with the argument that she somehow owed Tyrion affection, sex, or babies, or that she was actually doing wrong by not providing that.

Some posters also seem to confuse what's "legal" in Westeros (which is often simply "what you can get away with if you have more power than the person you hurt") with what's seen as moral and acceptable. Abusing your wife, either by forcing sex on her, hitting her or whatever, doesn't seem to be the kind of thing a man will get arrested, tried, and thrown in jail or sent to the Wall for. Same with physically abusing your kids and threatening to kill them, (like Randall Tarly does). That doesn't mean everyone in Westeros finds such abusive behavior as socially acceptable. Cersei actually hides the worst of Robert's actions from Jaime out of fear Jaime will kill Robert for them. Jon is appalled by how Tarly treated Sam, and even Bronn (in a bit of foreshadowing) says, after hearing Tyrion's tale of the rape of Tysha, that "I would kill the man who did that to me". (And he says this believing Tysha was a whore).

Also, when Jaime questions why the KG is standing by letting Aerys rape and abuse his wife, the KG party line is not "a man has the right to do that to his wife". They admit they have a duty to protect Rhaella from being hurt, just "not from him". Which makes me think that if, for example, a KG was guarding a princess who married out of the family, and found her non-royal husband abusing her, they very well might have stepped in to defend the princess from her husband. If, say, Arys Oakheart had found Trystane beating Myrcella, I suspect he would NOT have stood idly by.

Ramsey and Gregor are in a different league compared to Lysa.

I also totally agree that Ramsay and Gregor are in a different league. There's no sign Lysa actually enjoys murdering people or gets kicks out of it; well, the book version of her, anyway. (TV!Lysa, on the other hand, seemed giddy at the thought of making Tyrion "fly".) However, it does seem that many posters around here find being a "bitch" the worst possible sin anyone can commit (and quite interesting that only women can be guilty of it).

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Child abuse, murder, and intentionally causing your relatives harm goes beyond being a "bitch" IMO.

Nothing is sexist about my condemnation of Lysa

[W. Frey - Wedding Planner]

She was "inpregnable"?! (So going to hell)

At least for most of her life, you know, after her love child was murdered, she was used as a brood sow (to a very old bull) to gain support in a war, and oh yeah; she wasn't ever stable to begin with.

[Otho Bracken]

If you're going to be the catspaw for the guy who generates the Stark/Lannister conflict that consumes the first three books by killing your husband and lying to your sister about who did it, you're gonna need a bleak backstory.

[EstEst]

I only said it with the assumption that someone was defending her actions, I'm not sure now if anybody was.

I'm not really swayed by any she's not as bad as them argument.

Who knows how many innocent ppl she may have tossed out the moon door in a rage, and with her child abuse, IMO there's enough there for me to consider her a scumbag not worth defending.

That's if anybody was trying to defend her, but I don't think anybody was trying to do that

Understood. I'm a very sympathetic person, but still I cannot bring myself to defending her actions. Let's say that she ended as a victim of an avalanche that she herself started.

I agree with everyone who says that Lysa was not very stable to start with. Seducing Petyr pretending she was Cat was not a normal thing. But I don't think it's a family trait, most probably it's personal.

WeddinGuest, thanks for understanding. Regarding not marrying Jon, I think that Lysa was too weak a personality to really try anything non-conventional. (unlike Cat). But if she wanted to claim independence, she could start with that. New paths are never easy, what do you want.

[WeddinGuest]

I think the whole point of this topic is to ask why/how Lysa wound up the way she was, which is not the same as saying "therefore she gets an automatic pass for all her actions". I think the main driving factor in her choices was not actually her "love" for LF, but her jealousy, resentment, and perhaps even downright hatred of her older sister Catelyn. Interestingly, Cat and Lysa are two years apart, which is the same age gap as Sansa and Arya, who also have a heated rivalry. I think that much like Arya often fears her parents love and value Sansa more, to the point she innocently wonders if she is a bastard like Jon, Lysa always felt her parents loved/valued Cat more than she. Probably, somewhere in her mind she thinks "if Perfect Cat had been the one pregnant with Petyr's baby, Father wouldn't have murdered HER baby, or made HER marry an old man with stinking breath"!

Now, I can't ever imagine Arya pretending to be Sansa and seducing, say, LF (though that would certainly be controversial!) Arya rejects Sansa's way of life and decides to forge her own path. However, it seems Lysa doesn't reject Cat's way of life. Instead, she acts like she wants to BE Catelyn in a way; somewhat like how Lancel wanted to be Jaime, and I can see how a parallel with Lysa sleeping with LF (who uses her for his own purposes) and Lancel sleeping with Cersei (who uses him for her own purposes). (BTW, I'm almost 99% sure that Cersei called out Jaime's name at least once, likely more, while having sex with Lancel.)

I also think that one of the reasons Lysa insisted on Tyrion being judged in the Vale, despite Cat's protests, because she relished being in a position of power to decide what happens to Tyrion, basically finishing what Cat had started. I also think that when Lysa saw Petyr kissing Sansa, all of her earlier issues with Cat rose to the surface, and when she tried to kill Sansa, she was psychologically trying to "kill" Cat too. I really wonder if Lysa would have pursued Petyr at all, if she didn't realize he was in love with Cat. While I think Lysa was definitely a victim of her father, obviously having less power in that relationship, I'm not quite as sure when it comes to LF. It seems that, despite her delusions of true love, Lysa was using Petyr just as much as he was using her.

It also seems that, unlike Cat, Lysa doesn't seem to have been provided with any education in how to rule wisely. Which is interesting, because Hoster at first meant to wed Lysa to Jaime, a much more conventional match than one to a man thrice her age, and at the time he contemplated this, Jaime was the heir to Casterly Rock; indeed, he joins the KG at least partly to avoid that marriage. So you'd think Hoster would have given Lysa more of an education in how to be the Lady of a Great House.

I also think the parallels between "Sansa vs Arya" and "Cat vs Lysa" are deliberate and bring up one of the interesting themes of the series is, are we doomed to keep repeating the mistakes of our parents, or not? Will attempts to avoid our parents' mistakes just lead us to worse mistakes (like Robb's)? While many anti-Sansa posters seem to relish the idea of an Arya-Sansa conflict, even postulate scenarios in which Arya takes a contract to assassinate "Alayne Stone", I think we might wind up with Arya and Sansa managing to avoid a repeat of Lysa and Catelyn's sad story.

[Rorrkim]

What is actually wrong with her is that she is dead...

[Clariana]

I don't blame Lysa, what she went through would have broken anybody and her actions towards the end... I am pretty sure she doo-lally, living in some fantasy world where what she did didn't seem very real anymore, Martin hints as much when she turns up with her entourage ready to seduce LF.

Interesting to contrast her Dany who actually goes through much the same but who, so far, has refused to break.

[Lord Damian]

Lysa strikes me as immature as a youth. Petyr was adventurous and cunning but uninterested in her and naturally a competition in her own mind got the best of her and she compromised herself. She was a good catch until she lost her innocense. Alliances needed to be made and Cat reflects that Jon Arryn may have taken Lysa because he needed their father, Hoster's swords. Hoster was greatfull to get Lysa married to someone highborn as Jon Arryn and told her to be greatful but she missed her child and Petyr and never, ever got over it. Petyr used her to gain power and influence and admitted, in the end, that he loved cat always and not her.

So, in a nutshell, what is / was wrong with Lysa tully, Petyr Baelish, AKA "Littlefinger" used her and abused her and made her what she was.

[Dany Girl]

What is actually wrong with her is that she is dead...

:lmao: can't get truer than that.

Laughed so suddenly I scared my dog!

[mambru]

I wouldn't say that anybody on this board embrace the idea that Lysa should have resigned herself to being a brood mare. Or that she had no right to assert her agency at all.... I personally don't see anything cruel on his side in the marriage itself.

The thread is about discussing 'what's wrong with Lysa,' and I think the forced abortion of a pregnancy she wanted was as traumatic and as character-influencing for her as her unhappy marriage was (if not more so.) So they're both legitimate reasons to explain the things she's done in her life. They're linked, the marriage couldn't have happened without the abortion - and they were both forced on her by Hoster. And IMO, they were both cruel wrongs done to her by Hoster, not just by our modern standards, but by Westerosi standards also. I shall explain:

The point is that she trapped herself in unwanted marriage first of all because of her own mistake, namely, because she got (1) obsessed and (2) pregnant. (sorry about stating that so cold and matter-of-factly but that is the fact.) After that Hoster had little choice in choosing a groom.

Begging your pardon, but that just ain't so. There are cases in the books where highborn maidens were indiscreet and caught at it by pregnancy, and the families owned the embarrassment and dealt with it in a far more humane way than Hoster managed. Cersei, for example, gossiped about a highborn woman who married a man far beneath her in rank, and giggled that it must be because she had a full belly. So dealing with an inopportune pregnancy by a less-than-optimal-marriage IS an option for Hoster. He could have put up with some embarrassment, married off Lysa to Petyr, and either given him an administrative job to prove his worth or packed the couple off to Sheepshit Island if he felt mean about it. He CHOSE not to. He CHOSE to abort her pregnancy and marry her to Arryn when he didn't have to. Why?

From Catelyn:

If she had lost a child before, that might explain Father's words, and much else besides...Lysa's marriage with Lord Arryn had been hastily arranged, and Jon was an old man even then, older than their father. An old man without an heir...He needed a young wife if House Arryn was to continue...a young wife known to be fertile....

"Father," she said, "Father, I know what you did."..."You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

Small wonder her sister's marriage had been so loveless. The Arryns were proud, and prickly of their honor. Lord Jon might wed Lysa to bind the Tullys to the cause of rebellion, and in hopes of a son, but it would have been hard for him to love a woman who came to his bed soiled and unwilling. He would have been kind, no doubt; dutiful, yes; but Lysa needed warmth.

I think we have our explanation here. Catelyn (who, unlike Lysa, still loves her father and is likelier to judge him kindly) thinks Hoster blackmailed Jon Arryn into marrying Lysa to get the Riverlands' support in the Rebellion. Hoster Tully's eldest daughter was already betrothed to the Stark heir - he had a family obligation toward the Starks, and should have lent the North his support in the rebellion on the strength of that alone. But he got greedy. One marriage in his family to a Lord Paramount wasn't good enough - he wanted two. So he forced Arryn to marry Lysa - a woman he would have preferred not to marry due to her stained reputation - by threatening to stay out of the rebellion unless Jon agreed.

Of course, such a marriage would have necessarily been miserable. A proud old man like Jon Arryn would have always felt resentment toward the "slutty" bride that had been forced on him unwanted, and he could never have loved her because of it - and Lysa could only have been miserable with a husband who cared nothing for her. Catelyn saw that - and Hoster, being Lysa's father, knew her just as well and has no excuse for not seeing that too. He didn't care. He aborted Lysa's child and forced unwilling Arryn and unwilling Lysa together into a hellish marriage for his own pride and prestige. Even by the standards of Westeros, he didn't have to do it, he chose to...and so even by Westerosi standards, he did some pretty damn shitty things to his own daughter. It IS a credit to him that he realized just how shitty they were and repented of them before he died.

[The Fallen]

` I'm not one to argue "that's their custom". Not for honor killings, female circumcision, or any other horrors faced by women and people in general.

And my argument has been that in Westeros even some men don't have the freedom to do as they please. Sam Tarly surely didn't. And Jaime was disowned when he defied his father. Also, having your marriage arranged isn't exactly a death sentence.

In Lysa's case, she was dealt a good hand and played it badly. She knew, just like Cat, that her husband would be selected for her. But she damaged her own prospects by sleeping with LF. Everything that followed was a direct result of that. Do you think Cat was happy that she had to marry Ned? How about Glenna Lannister?

Lysa made bad decisions and had to suffer the consequences. That's not victim-blaming.

The forced abortion is the one thing that can't be justified

[Annara Snow]

Don't forget, their mother is a Whent - cursed somehow by Harrenhall. Generally the Whent women are not particularly fertile (even when married to Freys). How Minissa Whent Tully got around this is anyone's guess, although she did miscarry several times after Lysa was born and before bringing Edmure to term. Perhaps the ultimate instability of Catelyn and Lysa was inherited...by genes (physical) or by curse (metaphysical). Do we have future instabilities from the surviving children to look forward to? There is crazy Robert Arryn, of course, as well as murderous Arya, sociopathic Sansa, and wild untamable Rickon to consider.

LOL

I love it when people throw around words like "sociopathic" in absurd ways like this.

Ye gods. BECAUSETHEPATRIARCHY!!!1! isn't a diagnosis; it's a polemic. Even if Lysa had convinced her father to let her keep the Littlefetus, who's to say Petyr wanted to marry HER?

We can go all 21st century on her tale of woe, or look at it this way: Lysa was married off to the Lord of the Vale, by all accounts a lovely place, who later became Hand of the King. Cat had to take the second son of Winterfell, a cold, remote outpost where they didn't even worship the gods she did.

Yes, because that's all that matter.s as seen in how incredibly happy Lysa was in her marriage, and how unhappy Cat was in her marriage... oh, wait...

By the way (sorry again but I cannot change the way I feel) I would be glad if Sansa gave Tyrion a bit of credit and tried to find something positive in him. Perhaps they would make a good couple eventually. A marriage based on mutual respect and good humors is not a worst thing you could expect of a marriage with a dwarf.

As already pointed out by WeddinGuest, Sansa did find positive things about Tyrion - she even prayed for him during the Blackwater battle, and continues to appreciate his relative kindness during and after the forced marriage - although I wouldn't blame her if she didn't, since he was one of the Lannisters and was supporting his family's actions and actively working against her family, and had accepted, albeit reluctantly, to marry her against her will in order to seize her family's lands (as opposed to marrying Lollys, an alterntive that was so repugnant to him that he colorfully expressed it with "I'd rather cut it off and give it to the goats").

However, as incredible as it may sound to some people, it's actually possible to appreciate someone's positive points and be grateful for some kindness they've shown you, without felling any sort of romantic or sexual attraction to them.And the fact that someone has been a bit nice to you,,, say, hasn't raped you when he was given the legal right to - does not mean you owe them sex or love. Crazy, I know.

I'm baffled by the idea that Sansa and Tyrion "could have made a good couple". Please tell me, based on what? And more importantly, why should anyone, especially Sansa, even want to give it a try? Why would or should she want to be a part of a "couple" with a man that she was forced to marry as a hostage by the family that has been waging a war against her own family, the family that has murdered her father and went on to murder her mother and brother, a marriage that was in itself an act of war, an attempt to use Sansa, without any regard for her as a person, to seize the lands of her family? What is it that makes them a potentially good couple? Is it the fact that they have no romantic compatibility? That she feels no romantic or sexual attraction to him whatsoever - in fact, that she's physically repulsed by him (like Tyrion is by Lollys, but I don't see anyone arguing that he needed to be mature and give it a try and that he and Lollys may have been a good couple!)? That he doesn't love her or like her as a person - beyond basic human decency - or even know her or understand her as a person - and that his only attraction to her is to her body and her claim to Winterfell, even though he thinks of her as a "child" and believes she's as stupid and shallow to the point that he thinks she may still be into Joffrey (!!!)? Or do you just believe so strongly in Tywin Lannister's matchmaking ability, and what Tywin joins, no man shall put asunder?

Any respect and friendship Sansa and Tyrion may have developed was ruined by the forced marriage.

I find it really ironic that so many people bash Sansa for two things, being "weak" and "betraying her family" (even though she didn't really, since she had no idea there was a conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters at the time), but then when she actually does show spine and does not agree to be a "dutiful hostage wife", people want her to accept her fate, putting aside both all her personal desires and all feelings of loyalty to her family. And for what? The noble goal of making Tyrion feel a bit better about himself? The advancement of the Lannister interests?

WeddinGuest, great posts! If there as a like button, I would be liking all of them!

[Annara Snow]

And my argument has been that in Westeros even some men don't have the freedom to do as they please. Sam Tarly surely didn't. And Jaime was disowned when he defied his father.

How does that make things better?