What, exactly, is wrong with Lysa?

[WeddinGuest]

I'm glad we seem to at least have a consenus that "the forced abortion is the one thing that can't be justified". To me, Hoster's greatest sin isn't even that he "forced" Lysa to have an abortion, it's that he tricked her into drinking the moon tea. It's the same thing Sybell Spicer did to Jeyne Westerling. Though, okay, Hoster didn't actually go as far as plotting to kill Petyr. I can actually see other lords such as Tywin Lannister doing that, but I don't think Hoster is meant to be as dark a character or as bad a father as Tywin. (Of course, ironically, if Hoster HAD killed Petyr, he would have been doing many people a favor!) I think it's meant to count in Hoster's favor that Cat and Edmure still love him, while it seems none of Tywin's kids actually love him. (I also doubt that Hoster would have ordered Edmure's bride gang-raped if he married against his wishes to a lower-status woman.)

And speaking of Jeyne Westerling, we can say, certainly as some do about Lysa, that she "damaged her own prospects" by sleeping with a man she wasn't married to, and that "she made bad decisions and had to suffer the consequences". Actually, we can even say that Robb made "bad decisions and had to suffer the consequences". Blaming someone for easily foreseen consequences of their actions is one thing, but if you blame someone for "everything that follows", then you'd have to say Robb is to blame for the RW. But it seems most people here, while blaming Robb for losing the Freys, do not actually blame him for the RW itself. (The same logic would argue that Sansa is primarily to blame for Ned's death, and that reading is popular around here, but I don't agree with that either because Sansa had NO IDEA Ned was in danger of death).

(And yes, it turns out Sybelle wanted Jeyne to sleep with Robb to set up her grand scheme to bring him down and get into the Lannister's good graces, but there's no sign Jeyne was aware of this when she "comforted" Robb. Now only does Robb himself think Jeyne acted out of her own free will, if she was just an obedient tool of her mother's, then I don't see any reason why she'd later openly defy her in front of Jaime.)

I guess we again get to the point of whether Lysa could have easily foreseen Hoster's actions, and how typical they were. From the in-universe examples mambru gave us, it seems Lysa could have been expected to be shipped off to marry a lower level marriage prospect than usual, but should NOT have expected to be tricked into aborting her son. It seems that even if Hoster didn't grant LF permission to marry Lysa, and matched her up with someone else, the equivalent of the "younger son of a junior branch of the Royce family", such a lower-tier husband might actually have been kinder to her, because at least he'd be happy that he landed a woman of such high status (and likely a good dowry), not resent her the way Jon Arryn likely did.

And BTW, thanks Annara for your support! I usually just lurk around here, but the vitriol directed at Lysa by some posters just seemed unbalanced to me. I don't think Lysa's a saint by any means, she is guilty of many sins, but it seems some people here just hate her and therefore judge her in ways they don't judge other characters, male or female.

[The Fallen]

How does that make things better?

It's not about making things better. It's the reality in this fictional world.

[Annara Snow]

It's not about making things better. It's the reality in this fictional world.

So is all the murder, rape, burning and pillaging that goes on during the wars in Westeros. Or all the murder and treachery that goes on in politics. I sure hope nobody is going to argue that this means that these things are not really that bad, and that characters really shouldn't be complaining about them.

[James Arryn]

So is all the murder, rape, burning and pillaging that goes on during the wars in Westeros. Or all the murder and treachery that goes on in politics. I sure hope nobody is going to argue that this means that these things are not really that bad, and that characters really shouldn't be complaining about them.

Generalized violence without a sexual actually seems to get a pretty consistent 'sign o' the times' pass, actually. I've never figured out how the sexual aspect completely alters our willingness to turn a contextual eye.

Unless it's that rep Europeans have about American television: gunfights, several violent deaths, 2 buses explode in flames, a helicopter unleashes a rocket attack on a government building, 3 vampires and a serial killer.

Good stuff, high ratings, this is going we-HOLD EVERYTHING! I THINK I SAW A NIPPLE!!!

[The Fallen]

And speaking of Jeyne Westerling, we can say, certainly as some do about Lysa, that she "damaged her own prospects" by sleeping with a man she wasn't married to, and that "she made bad decisions and had to suffer the consequences". Actually, we can even say that Robb made "bad decisions and had to suffer the consequences". Blaming someone for easily foreseen consequences of their actions is one thing, but if you blame someone for "everything that follows", then you'd have to say Robb is to blame for the RW. But it seems most people here, while blaming Robb for losing the Freys, do not actually blame him for the RW itself. (The same logic would argue that Sansa is primarily to blame for Ned's death, and that reading is popular around here, but I don't agree with that either because Sansa had NO IDEA Ned was in danger of death).

I don't think marrying a Lord Paramount/King in the North is damaging your prospects.

And I don't think your "butterfly effect"is valid. You could apply it to Robb's "rebellion" and even to the Trey's being upset with him.

I'm not arguing that Lysa deserves bad things to happen to her because she slept with LF. On the contrary, I'm arguing that she had a charmed life compared to 99% of the population of Westeros. She had a husband which treated her kindly. Was he ideal? Probably not. But she could have done worse. Was she happy? Obviously not. But nothing other than LF would have made her happy. All in all, I don't feel sorry for her. She should have tried to make the best of the situation. Jon Arryn was old, but he wasn't bad.

[BitsOfBrains]

I always thought it was possible little finger gave her syphilis.

LF loves the hookers, and I think we can assume LF and Lysa carry on in secret at Kings Landing.

It would also explain why she is "painted" (to cover up the skin nasts) and why she can't carry children to term.

Of course that doesn't explain why LF hasn't died from it, but I think sometimes people can just be carriers of certain diseases and not show symptoms for years.

[mambru]

On the contrary, I'm arguing that she had a charmed life compared to 99% of the population of Westeros.

So did Tyrion. Yet most people - even the people who dislike him - have no problem with the concept that his family treated him a lot worse than they should have even by Westerosi standards, and many feel that this mistreatment mitigates and explains to some extent the undeniably bad things Tyrion did, even if it does not fully excuse them. Don't see why the same should not apply to Lysa.

[The Fallen]

So is all the murder, rape, burning and pillaging that goes on during the wars in Westeros. Or all the murder and treachery that goes on in politics. I sure hope nobody is going to argue that this means that these things are not really that bad, and that characters really shouldn't be complaining about them.

You're comparing arranged marriages to war. Or individuals not being free to do as they please to atrocities committed during war.

Lysa had one bad thing happen to her because of ill-advised behavior. It doesn't equate to the women that are raped during war.

[The Fallen]

So did Tyrion. Yet most people - even the people who dislike him - have no problem with the concept that his family treated him a lot worse than they should have even by Westerosi standards, and many feel that this mistreatment mitigates and explains to some extent the undeniably bad things Tyrion did, even if it does not fully excuse them. Don't see why the same should not apply to Lysa.

Tyrion was actually treated a lot worse than Lysa was. By his father and sister and strangers. But I don't agree that it mitigates anything bad that Tyrion may have done. (Except maybe killing his father.)

[Winter's Knight]

Generalized violence without a sexual actually seems to get a pretty consistent 'sign o' the times' pass, actually. I've never figured out how the sexual aspect completely alters our willingness to turn a contextual eye.

Unless it's that rep Europeans have about American television: gunfights, several violent deaths, 2 buses explode in flames, a helicopter unleashes a rocket attack on a government building, 3 vampires and a serial killer.

Good stuff, high ratings, this is going we-HOLD EVERYTHING! I THINK I SAW A NIPPLE!!!

I think it's because there's an added sense of violation when the violence is sexual or invasive.

Also, everyone agrees that murder et al is bad-you don't have people arguing that Gregor's or Rajmsey's atrocities is understandable given the times or Cersei's handing people to her creepy maester who's name escapes me was her right as queen.

[WeddinGuest]

"Lysa had one bad thing happen to her because of ill-advised behavior. It doesn't equate to the women that are raped during war. "

One bad thing? Are you referring to the forced abortion? But I thought we'd clarified that was NOT a justified action by Hoster, and hence, NOT something we can blame Lysa for at all. Or are we talking about her marriage to Jon? Are you claiming (as many do around here) that "marital rape isn't real rape"or "marital rape doesn't exist in Westeros"? Marital rape isn't illegal in Westeros. Doesn't mean it (and the associated trauma) doesn't exist. IMHO, if I had to choose between being raped once (or even multiple times) in war, or being raped every night by my own husband, well...I don't know which I'd choose, but I don't think it's so clear-cut that one fate is worse than another.

Also, are we now blaming Lysa for all her miscarriages now? Because I think those helped to destabilize Lysa just as much as the original LFGate did.

[Winter's Knight]

Tyrion was actually treated a lot worse than Lysa was. By his father and sister and strangers, but I don't agree that it mitigates anything bad that Tyrion may have done. (Except maybe killing his father.)

By his father and sister yes but what stranger mistreated him pre-Dance?

[mambru]

Lysa had one bad thing happen to her because of ill-advised behavior.

You make it sound like that "bad thing" just "happened" to her without other human intervention, that it was something that she brought on herself completely with no assistance from anyone else. Her father - who's supposed to love her - decided to DO IT TO HER when he didn't have to. He decided to cause an abortion of a pregnancy of a fourteen year old girl - a pregnancy she wanted, a pregnancy that she already thought of as a baby, so that he could marry her off to a man who didn't want her, who was blackmailed into marrying her so he could get her father's army, who'd always resent her because she wasn't the untainted young bride he felt he really deserved, and because she was the instrument of her father's blackmail. Hoster chose to do those "bad things" for his family prestige, not because he could seriously think that killing the baby his daughter wanted so that he could marry her off to a guy who didn't want to marry her and would resent her for it was really calculated to make his daughter happy. It was for himself he did them, which is why he regretted it and was tortured by the memory to his deathbed.

[Dryhtscipe]

This thread makes me feel stabby.

[Petyr Patter]

A bit of conversation between Sansa and Lysa...

And [Robert Arryn] likes to play hopfrog and spin-the-sword and come-into-my-castle, but you must always let him win. That’s only proper, don’t you think? He is the Lord of the Eyrie, after all, you must never forget that. You are well born, and the Starks of Winterfell were always proud, but Winterfell has fallen and you are really just a beggar now, so put that pride aside. Gratitude will better become you, in your present circumstances. Yes, and obedience. My son will have a grateful and obedient wife.

Lysa clearly suffers from some sort of narcissism and lack of empathy.

The thing is, the only reason Lysa isn't in a situation similar to Sansa's is because Hoster Tully took care of his daughter. Alternatively, he could have wed Lysa to Petyr and sent them both back to the Fingers. I'm sure that would have been oh so happy for both parties. He also probably could have worked out a marriage to Tyrion Lannister. Ditto on the lack of happiness.

Sansa comes to Lysa after being forced into a marriage she didn't want, having most of her family killed (in due in large part of Lysa's lies and inaction), and looking for someplace to call home. Lysa turns around and arranges another marriage to her and makes it clear that the Eyrie is not her home.

[ARYa_Nym]

I also think the parallels between "Sansa vs Arya" and "Cat vs Lysa" are deliberate and bring up one of the interesting themes of the series is, are we doomed to keep repeating the mistakes of our parents, or not? Will attempts to avoid our parents' mistakes just lead us to worse mistakes (like Robb's)? While many anti-Sansa posters seem to relish the idea of an Arya-Sansa conflict, even postulate scenarios in which Arya takes a contract to assassinate "Alayne Stone", I think we might wind up with Arya and Sansa managing to avoid a repeat of Lysa and Catelyn's sad story.

I think a more apt comparison would be those who like the idea of Sansa and Gendry together so that Arya will get pissed off Lysa style and be heartbroken.

I think it's faulty because first of all at the most Arya and Gendry one interpretation is that they have a potential romance which isn't the same as an actual romance being present. The other is that their relationship is platonic.

There's no desire, romantic feelings, abortion baggage (obviously), on Arya's end like there was with Lysa for LF. Arya barely thinks of Gendry now so I don't see those wishes coming true.

As for the Alayne theory I think it's more so that with many of the who will Arya being sent to kill theories they don't factor in the most important detail. A very big point that is often missing is the fact that a person has to make a sacrifice for a FM contract. A person isn't going to sacrifice their child for Alayne Stone for example when they could just kill her themselves or they could have someone else do it where the price isn't so high.

Not many characters are worth a FM contract.

The series does have a theme of stories repeating themselves so I see it just possibly doing so on a basic level in that they won't be close either.

[mambru]

Tyrion was actually treated a lot worse than Lysa was.

Say what you will about Tywin - and indeed, a great many awful things can be said - he never physically harmed Tyrion, nor did he kill someone he loved in front of him. Which is not to say I think Tywin is a better man than Hoster - he is far worse, of course, because he did a great many more evil things in his life and repented of none of them, while Hoster repented of the evil thing he did.

However, that doesn't change the fact that it was an evil act - one that her own father performed against her at age fourteen, which makes it worse because it's a betrayal by someone who's supposed to love you - which makes it a parallel for the rape of Tysha that Tywin ordered when Tyrion was fourteen. One could also say that Tyrion being forced to watch Tysha being raped was "a bad thing" that "happened to him" because of Tyrion's "ill-advised behavior." One could say that - if one were an asshole.

And I do agree that the rape of Tysha was a worse act than Hoster forcing a miscarriage on Lysa. But it still has its own particular dimensions that make it uniquely traumatizing to Lysa in a way that the rape was not for Tyrion. It's a physical violation of her body, an invasion and a causing of harm - miscarriages are dangerous, painful, and go on for hours. It's ending a pregnancy that she wanted, that she thought of as a baby, so it was making her witness the prolonged death of her longed-for child. Even grown women in our world often have bereavement and even severe depression after a miscarriage. On top of that, to realize that it was her father who deliberately did this to her by deception adds a horror to it that I think would be unimaginably scarring to even grown women - and she was fourteen.

[WeddinGuest]

Lysa being cruelly treated herself by her family, certainly doesn't absolve her of treating Sansa cruelly, which I agree she does. But I'd also say (to return to the OP) that Sansa is Cat 2.0 to Lysa almost as much as she is to Petyr Baelish himself. Lysa's always felt "lesser than" compared to Cat; she loved having power over Cat when she brings Tyrion to the Eyrie, and she also seems to love having Sansa in the position of "just a beggar", as I'm sure she's fantasized having Cat reduced to as well. Was Lysa really, in her mind, trying to kill Sansa as she opened the Moon Door? Or was she trying to kill Cat?

Also, the main impression I get of Lysa is that she's very immature, speaking and acting more like a teenager than a thirty-something woman with a child. The pre-wedding scene with LF, when Sansa notes she actually "stamped a foot" after she demanded LF marry her immediately, cemented that impression for me. It's like she's forever stuck as the 14 year old she was at the point of LFGate. While I'm not going to venture a guess as to what other psych diagnoses Lysa might qualify for, she definitely seems to have some elements of PTSD. The many miscarriages she had, I'm sure didn't help. If she wasn't already having psychological flashbacks to the forced abortion already (she may have even have done so with regular periods for all we know), this would certainly do it.

...it was an evil act - one that her own father performed against her at age fourteen, which makes it worse because it's a betrayal by someone who's supposed to love you - which makes it a parallel for the rape of Tysha that Tywin ordered when Tyrion was fourteen. One could also say that Tyrion being forced to watch Tysha being raped was "a bad thing" that "happened to him" because of Tyrion's "ill-advised behavior." One could say that - if one were an asshole.

mambru, to nitpick, Tyrion was actually 13, not 14. I also think that Tywin DID violate Tyrion's body, as well as Tysha's, because he not only forced Tyrion to watch Tysha be raped, he made him rape Tysha himself. Otherwise, I think the parallels are quite apt because pretty much no one in-universe thinks Tywin's response was proportional or justified; Bronn outright tells Tyrion that "I'd have killed the man who did that to me". Tyrion might have anticipated that Tywin would eventually force him to annul the marriage to Tysha, pay her off and send her far away, perhaps to Essos somewhere. I can certainly see other lords doing that, or even just arranging for Tysha to have a convenient "accident", but I certainly don't see most high lords in Westeros going to the extent Tywin did with Tysha and Tyrion.

Another parallel between what Tywin does to Tyrion, and what Hoster does to Lysa, is that they force their children to participate in the evil acts themselves. Tywin orders Tyrion to rape Tysha. Hoster tricks Lysa into drinking the moon tea. I'm sure Lysa beat herself up over it afterwards, wondering how she could have been so stupid, that if she just hadn't had that drink, her baby might still be alive. Is it a proportional response for Lysa to disown her whole family, not just Hoster? No, I think not. But Lysa sees Hoster as, essentially, a kinslayer, and we know that is one of the Big No-Nos in Westerosi culture. The abortion may very well have occurred after the child had already "quickened" and Lysa could feel it moving. Traditionally in medieval culture, this was the moment when a child was considered alive, and any termination of the pregnancy an abortion -- terminations before that point were technically considered late contraception, not abortion, though still immoral. So, Lysa's perception that Hoster murdered her baby may very well be backed up by Westerosi mores. Hoster also ran the risk of killing Lysa herself, and I'm sure Lysa wonders in her darkest moments of Hoster cared even if she lived or died. So, why should SHE care if he lives or dies?

[The Fallen]

"Lysa had one bad thing happen to her because of ill-advised behavior. It doesn't equate to the women that are raped during war. "

One bad thing? Are you referring to the forced abortion? But I thought we'd clarified that was NOT a justified action by Hoster, and hence, NOT something we can blame Lysa for at all. Or are we talking about her marriage to Jon? Are you claiming (as many do around here) that "marital rape isn't real rape"or "marital rape doesn't exist in Westeros"? Marital rape isn't illegal in Westeros. Doesn't mean it (and the associated trauma) doesn't exist. IMHO, if I had to choose between being raped once (or even multiple times) in war, or being raped every night by my own husband, well...I don't know which I'd choose, but I don't think it's so clear-cut that one fate is worse than another.

Also, are we now blaming Lysa for all her miscarriages now? Because I think those helped to destabilize Lysa just as much as the original LFGate did.

Yes, I'm referring to the forced abortion. I don't think it was the right thing to do, but it came about because of her getting impregnated by LF. So she has to hold some of the blame.

I'm not sure what you mean by marital rape. Are you saying that Lysa and Jon Arryn should not have had sex? What kind of marriage is that? And is it marital rape because it was an arranged marriage? Had she married someone desirable like Jaime would it still be marital rape?

There are plenty of innocent victims in Westeros. I wouldn't put Lysa in that category.

[The Fallen]

You make it sound like that "bad thing" just "happened" to her without other human intervention, that it was something that she brought on herself completely with no assistance from anyone else. Her father - who's supposed to love her - decided to DO IT TO HER when he didn't have to. He decided to cause an abortion of a pregnancy of a fourteen year old girl - a pregnancy she wanted, a pregnancy that she already thought of as a baby, so that he could marry her off to a man who didn't want her, who was blackmailed into marrying her so he could get her father's army, who'd always resent her because she wasn't the untainted young bride he felt he really deserved, and because she was the instrument of her father's blackmail. Hoster chose to do those "bad things" for his family prestige, not because he could seriously think that killing the baby his daughter wanted so that he could marry her off to a guy who didn't want to marry her and would resent her for it was really calculated to make his daughter happy. It was for himself he did them, which is why he regretted it and was tortured by the memory to his deathbed.

You make it sound like she was completely innocent.

And Hoster really forced her to get an abortion with the foresight that a war was coming and Jon Arryn would need an heir and he'd be able to force him to take Lysa off his hands. A bit dramatic.