What, exactly, is wrong with Lysa?

[The Fallen]

By his father and sister yes but what stranger mistreated him pre-Dance?

I was referring more to the sniggers and looks he gets due to being a dwarf and ugly.

[mambru]

Yes, I'm referring to the forced abortion. I don't think it was the right thing to do, but it came about because of her getting impregnated by LF. So she has to hold some of the blame.

Lysa got pregnant because she was fourteen, in love, horny and with a severe case of teenage stupidity. Tyrion married Tysha because he was fourteen, in love, horny, and with a severe case of teenage stupidity. So would you say that the rape of Tysha "came about" because of Tyrion's marriage....that this bad thing just "happened to him" because of his "ill-advised behavior" and that he "holds some of the blame" for it "happening to him?" I, myself, would say that in BOTH cases the "bad thing" did not just "happen" to Tyrion and Lysa because of their "ill-advised behavior" - it was in both cases deliberately brought on by a parent who abused his power over his powerless child to cause them harm far in excess of the petty sin either of them had committed, and in both cases the excessive harm was caused without any real need beyond pride.

If you still differentiate those two cases, please explain to me why.

[WeddinGuest]

Yes, I'm referring to the forced abortion. I don't think it was the right thing to do, but it came about because of her getting impregnated by LF. So she has to hold some of the blame.

So I guess Tyrion has to hold some of the blame for what Tywin did? After all, it wasn't the right thing to do, but it came about because of him marrying Tysha. Now, I realize the analogy doesn't quite apply because Tyrion did himself rape Tysha, but let's say the TV version of the story happened and Tyrion was only forced to watch others rape her -- does he hold the blame for that part of it?

I'm not sure what you mean by marital rape. Are you saying that Lysa and Jon Arryn should not have had sex? What kind of marriage is that? And is it marital rape because it was an arranged marriage? Had she married someone desirable like Jaime would it still be marital rape?

I don't think it was "marital rape because it was an arranged marriage". But would you say "Are you saying that Sansa and Tyrion should not have had sex? What kind of marriage is that?" Not all sex within arranged marriage is rape. But it can be. I also think Drogo raped Dany, and his treatment of her actually made her want to kill herself. I don't know if Jon's treatment ever made Lysa feel that way. But see, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you meant the marriage to Jon was the "bad thing", just not as bad as women being raped and abused in wartime.

Now that we know you ARE blaming Lysa for the abortion; well, then, what IS worse? Having some strange soldier, who you can easily demonize as "the enemy", grab you and rape you, perhaps beat you a bit, but eventually let you go? And likely run off, never to be seen again. Or have someone you love, and know per the mores of your society than you should respect and obey, essentially murder your child in front of you? Because that is Lysa's perception of what happened. She sees Hoster as guilty of the murder of her child. That certainly doesn't excuse all of her actions. But at least she didn't actually become a kinslayer herself and kill Hoster (granted, she may have if she had the opportunity). Most people here seem to give Tyrion a pass for actually personally murdering Tywin. Hmm...

Edited to add: mambru, you beat me to it. It's also interesting that in both cases, Tywin and Hoster's actions have the ultimate effect of permanently estranging their children and eventually having their children actively work against the interests of their Houses. Hmm, I guess according to the logic here, Tywin and Hoster "hold some of the blame for that", right? Since this came about because of their actions?

[LordStoneheart]

Edited to add: mambru, you beat me to it. It's also interesting that in both cases, Tywin and Hoster's actions have the ultimate effect of permanently estranging their children and eventually having their children actively work against the interests of their Houses. Hmm, I guess according to the logic here, Tywin and Hoster "hold some of the blame for that", right? Since this came about because of their actions?

Catelyn and Edmure were never estranged from him and though their actions were failures in the end, it wasn't to work against the interest of House Tully.

[The Fallen]

Lysa got pregnant because she was fourteen, in love, horny and with a severe case of teenage stupidity. Tyrion married Tysha because he was fourteen, in love, horny, and with a severe case of teenage stupidity. So would you say that the rape of Tysha "came about" because of Tyrion's marriage....that this bad thing just "happened to him" because of his "ill-advised behavior" and that he "holds some of the blame" for it "happening to him?" I, myself, would say that in BOTH cases the "bad thing" did not just "happen" to Tyrion and Lysa because of their "ill-advised behavior" - it was in both cases deliberately brought on by a parent who abused his power over his powerless child to cause them harm far in excess of the petty sin either of them had committed, and in both cases the excessive harm was caused without any real need beyond pride.

If you still differentiate those two cases, please explain to me why.

OK. Westeros has traditions. When nobles defy that tradition, it usually doesn't end well. They either get sent away or they're kept home, or they become an add-on to a deal with another family, or they're disowned, etc...

Both Tyrion and Lysa defied tradition. Their fathers went to extreme measures to either teach a lesson or undo the damage. But neither is an innocent victim (Tysha was the only innocent victim). Westeros is tough, you won't vet an argument from me on that point.

Tyrion having to watch while a whole garrison rapes his wife? Horrible. He knew that Tywin wouldn't allow it to stand (again, poor Tysha. And it just reinforces Tywin's place in hell.) Lysa also knew that LF was beneath her station. I feel bad for the forced abortion. Again, horrible. But we can't absolve her completely. The rest though - the loveless marriage and all the other stuff, that's par-for-the-course. I'm sure Ned never forgot Ashara Dayne and Cat never forgot Brandon. Barbra Ryswell never forgot Brandon. Robert never forgot Lyanna and Cersei never forgot Rhaegar. Should we feel sorry for all of them?

In conclusion, Lysa defied tradition, was victimized herself, but landed nicely on her feet when compared to even her fellow nobles.

[Annara Snow]

Both Tyrion and Lysa defied tradition. Their fathers went to extreme measures to either teach a lesson or undo the damage. But neither is an innocent victim (Tysha was the only innocent victim).

By the logic you're using, she wasn't. She knew that she was a commoner and he was a noble and that she was marrying far above her station, something that goes against the Westerosi tradition and just isn't done in her society. She defied tradition, too.

The rest though - the loveless marriage and all the other stuff, that's par-for-the-course. I'm sure Ned never forgot Ashara Dayne and Cat never forgot Brandon. Barbra Ryswell never forgot Brandon. Robert never forgot Lyanna and Cersei never forgot Rhaegar. Should we feel sorry for all of them?

Ned's and Cat's marriage wasn't loveless, or unhappy.

Robert and Cersei's marriage, on the other hand, was an absolute disaster.

Neither of those is really the average arranged marriage in Westeros; what's par the course is probably something between the two extremes, like Jorah's first marriage, tolerable but with no love or passion.

Lysa and Jon's marriage may not have been as bad as Robert and Cersei's, but it was far closer to that end of the scale.

Your examples are apples and oranges. There is no textual support for the idea that Catelyn was still in love with Brandon or that Ned was still pining after long dead Ashara. In fact, Cat is the only one who thinks about Ashara - because she's jealous of her over Ned. Ned doesn't think of Ashara even once in all his POV chapters - he thinks about her brother, about the Tower of Joy, about Lyanna, about Robert, about Rhaegar, but never about Ashara - which is completely different from, say, the way that Tyrion keeps thinking about Tysha and can't let go. And there's ample evidence in Cat's POV chapters that she came to love Ned and stopped wishing he was more like his brother. I don't even think she was in love with Brandon - she didn't seem to be devastated by his death - I think she was just attracted to him and liked him.

Robert and Cersei are to be pitied (Ned certainly thought so), but not because they lost some great love of their lives, but because they were in an unhappy, terribly mismatched marriage. Robert was probably incapable of a real relationship, so he clung to an idealized image of a girl he never really even knew as a person. Cersei's crush on Rhaegar was a childish infatuation with a prince she didn't even really know and never had any kind of relationship with him, similar to Sansa's crush on Loras, and it would have evaporated just as the latter did, if Cersei hadn't been in a terribly unhappy marriage that made her go back to 'what could have been'.

Maybe Lysa would have let go off her obsession with LF if she had been in a happier marriage, or if she hadn't relived her forced abortion so many times. Or maybe she wouldn't have. We will never know. She seemed to be an obsessive, stalkery type just like LF himself. LF himself had had lots of opportunities to meet and fall in love and marry or have a serious relationship with a woman, but he clung to his Cat obsession instead.

In conclusion, Lysa defied tradition, was victimized herself, but landed nicely on her feet when compared to even her fellow nobles.

If you call going through multiple traumatizing miscarriages and abortions, having a deeply unhappy marriage, and going batshit crazy, "landing on her feet".

[The Fallen]

So I guess Tyrion has to hold some of the blame for what Tywin did? After all, it wasn't the right thing to do, but it came about because of him marrying Tysha. Now, I realize the analogy doesn't quite apply because Tyrion did himself rape Tysha, but let's say the TV version of the story happened and Tyrion was only forced to watch others rape her -- does he hold the blame for that part of it?

Yes, yes he did.

I don't think it was "marital rape because it was an arranged marriage". But would you say "Are you saying that Sansa and Tyrion should not have had sex? What kind of marriage is that?" Not all sex within arranged marriage is rape. But it can be. I also think Drogo raped Dany, and his treatment of her actually made her want to kill herself. I don't know if Jon's treatment ever made Lysa feel that way. But see, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you meant the marriage to Jon was the "bad thing", just not as bad as women being raped and abused in wartime.

Now that we know you ARE blaming Lysa for the abortion; well, then, what IS worse? Having some strange soldier, who you can easily demonize as "the enemy", grab you and rape you, perhaps beat you a bit, but eventually let you go? And likely run off, never to be seen again. Or have someone you love, and know per the mores of your society than you should respect and obey, essentially murder your child in front of you? Because that is Lysa's perception of what happened. She sees Hoster as guilty of the murder of her child. That certainly doesn't excuse all of her actions. But at least she didn't actually become a kinslayer herself and kill Hoster (granted, she may have if she had the opportunity). Most people here seem to give Tyrion a pass for actually personally murdering Tywin. Hmm...

Edited to add: mambru, you beat me to it. It's also interesting that in both cases, Tywin and Hoster's actions have the ultimate effect of permanently estranging their children and eventually having their children actively work against the interests of their Houses. Hmm, I guess according to the logic here, Tywin and Hoster "hold some of the blame for that", right? Since this came about because of their actions?

Lysa has to hold some responsibility, after all, had she not gotten impregnated then there's no abortion. It's not his I or most Westerosi fathers would have handled it, but she played her part.

I'm going to end this because we're getting away from the point. I never said Lysa is solely responsible for the abortion. Just that her own actions played a role. You don't feel that way that's fine. As I stated earlier, the marriage and the other stuff is normal, and I've used other examples which you conveniently ignore. Lysa wasn't the only individual in a less than ideal marriage. Lysa is horrible because she's horrible, not because of any hardships she's suffered. She was always petty, jealous and delusional. This isn't personal and I don't mean to be insensitive. But it's how her story reads to me.

ETA:

In my previous post I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to imply that Ned and Cat had a loveless marriage. Simply that they had other individuals that they were fond of, but it never came to be. Similar to Lysa.

And miscarriages are tough. I don't know how she can be blamed for that though. Therefore, I don't bring it up. Especially, since other women have suffered the same. I guess some can deal with the pain of losing a child and others come unhinged. I guess Lysa falls in the latter group. Alright, it's time to go.

[WeddinGuest]

DenysJelmazmo, I didn't mean that ALL of Tywin or Hoster's children actively worked against the interests of their Houses. Just that some of them did. Where Tywin is concerned, while Tyrion certainly abandons him and Jaime eventually does as well, Cersei IS still trying to promote the interests of House Lannister; doing a terrible job of it, but she is trying. Same for Hoster, though he only has Lysa turn against him, he does keep Cat and Edmure's loyalties. But I was using the plural "children" because even if we just refer to Tyrion and Lysa, that is two children.

The Fallen, while I totally disagree with you about both Lysa and Tyrion's cases, I will say that at least you are mostly consistent in your victim-blaming. I say *mostly*, because I agree with Annara Snow that if you were really being 100% consistent, you would also hold Tysha partly responsible for her rape as well; indeed, I suspect that in Westeros, many folk, both high and lowborn, WOULD think she got what she deserved for daring to marry so high above her station. To me, a person can only be "responsible" for the consequences of their actions that are reasonably foreseeable. If you're being consistent, then I'd say that Robb is culpable for the RW as well and is not an "innocent victim" either. And you may very well say "of course he's not"!

I actually agree with your assessment that Lysa "was always petty, jealous, and delusional". The issue I have is when people assume that just because someone is unpleasant or unlikeable, that they MUST be responsible for everything bad that happens to them. I also wonder, did you think Tysha was an innocent victim before you found out she wasn't actually a paid whore? There are posters here who still suspect Tysha was just after Lannister gold and didn't really love Tyrion for himself. To me, Tysha would have been an innocent victim even IF she was a whore. But it seems many people wouldn't see it that way.

[The Fallen]

` Ha ha, victim blaming.

I don't consider it victim blaming. Firstly, let me say that I don't hold Tysha responsible for what befell her. What girl wouldn't want to marry into the nobility? (And it doesn't matter whether she was a whore or not. I was horrified the first time I read it.)

The difference in our opinion is that I feel Lysa only had one horrible thing happen to her; the forced abortion. Whereas you feel that being forced to marry and everything after that is horrible. Maybe it's because you have a female p.o.v. and I a male's. Or maybe your personalizing it. (I agree with you that the miscarriages were also horrible. I just don't know that we can attribute that other than to bad luck or a bad reproductive system. And the author didn't ascribe it to this or that, from my recollection.)

I've also kept the argument of consequences arising out of particular actions very narrow or direct. As an example, what I consider to be the consequences of Lysa's actions is the forced abortion (which I consider overkill) and a less-desirable match-up. Now, let's say Jon Arryn started abusing Lysa, physically and mentally? I would not consider that to also be part of the consequences for her actions.

I hope that clears up my position.

[Greywind84]

landed nicely on her feet

Im guessing she didnt

[mambru]

I don't consider it victim blaming. Firstly, let me say that I don't hold Tysha responsible for what befell her. What girl wouldn't want to marry into the nobility?

Well, if you put it that way, what young girl wouldn't want to marry the boy she loves even if he IS a lower rank than her? What young boy wouldn't have wanted to marry the girl he loved who really did love him (unlike almost everyone else he knew) even if that girl was a commoner when he was a noble? All three of those kids committed "ill-advised" acts by the standards of their own society. Why does Tysha's social-climbing desire to marry into the nobility (as you think - I don't believe that was her motive) exonerate her of blame, while Lysa and Tyrion's desire for love condemn them? I just don't get your reasoning.

Is it because she suffered more than either Lysa or Tyrion did? I agree she did suffer more than either, but if you think it's reasonable to blame any of those children for the cruel punishments Tywin and Hoster chose to visit on them needlessly, that were all horribly disproportionate to the understandable childish mistakes they made, then it's not logical to conclude that the suffering of any of them retroactively cancels the 'blame' of what 'happened to them' for their 'ill-advised' acts.

And miscarriages are tough. I don't know how she can be blamed for that though. Therefore, I don't bring it up. Especially, since other women have suffered the same. I guess some can deal with the pain of losing a child and others come unhinged. I guess Lysa falls in the latter group.

Even women of our society and time can "come unhinged" - as you so elegantly put it - by multiple miscarriages. When the pregnancies are wanted, each loss is a bereavement like the loss of a child. Each loss leads to feelings of guilt and inadequacy. Also, losing a pregnancy can cause hormonal changes that can lead to postpartum depression and psychosis, even though they did not give birth.

In Lysa's case, in addition to the above factors, every miscarriage (which as I mentioned previously, are terribly painful, last for hours, and are life-endangering) forces her to re-live in detail the trauma of her first - in which she not only had to witness the death of her baby in hours of blood, pain, fear, and guilt, but had to do it because her father murdered it out of no other need but sheer pride (as she saw it, not unreasonably). I'd say that's a hell of a lot to go through.

[KyleLitke]

First, let me say that this type of society absolutely sucked for women. It was bullshit.

Second, while I agree on the forced abortion being terrible, a lot of the other stuff...it's how things were then. By todays standards, forcing her to marry Jon Arryn would be messed up. By the standards of her society, that's 100% normal and not at all out of the ordinary. It doesn't mean she'd like it just because society says so (in fact, we know she didn't), but I think it's difficult to point at that and say "It screwed her up" when looking at it from a modern perspective. We've been brought up knowing something like that is messed up...she was brought up knowing she WILL be forced to marry by her parents, just like most highborn women. Suck for her? Absolutely. Enough to cause the problems she has? I'm less sure about that.

Third, for those saying "No, she has no psychological problems, she's messed up because X Y and Z!"...X, Y, and Z would, in that case, be CAUSES of her psychological problems. If nothing else, she's clearly paranoid, especially when it comes to her son. Cat simply offering to take Robert if Lysa wanted caused her to flip out on Cat, beyond a normal reaction to an innocent gesture (it's not like Cat grabbed Robert and tried to run off with him or something).

And of course, as someone else pointed out earlier, it really should go without saying that just because there weren't DIAGNOSED psychological disorders in the story (or in the time period it's based on in real world history) doesn't mean said disorders don't exist.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

I agree with everything about the notion that Lysa was victimized as well as every other noble woman sold into unhappy marriages or not.

What I don't agree is with the perceived notion that male peasants, excluding the luxury, comfortable life and everything, have it better than any noble woman in every other aspect because they have autonomy over their bodies and can have properties and make a life of their own. First off when there is war, male peasants have to fight for their lord, they have no choice. That is not having control over their own bodies because their lives in this case belong to the nobles and they should die for causes they don't even understand and for people who oppress they daily. Female peasants, of course, are victims of rape and other acts of brutality committed by soldiers but noblewoman are mostly safe behind walls.

Another thing: while they are bond with matrimony the noblewomen indeed don't have anywhere to go and hold no property except what is given by their husbands but the situation changes drastically if such husbands die. In this case the woman inherits the lordship/ ladyship, like Lysa Arryn did: she is the ultimate authority in the Vale after Jon died. Until Sweetrobin grows to rule the Vale everything is hers, she holds all the power, comfort and people have to obey to her whims. A better example would be Barbrey Dustin who, unlike Lysa, is never manipulated or condescended to and still don't have any son to carry on the family legacy. She is virtually as much powerful as any other Stark vassal in the North, and can get away with a lot, like cutting someone's tongue if they displease her. People fear and respect her, she is powerful, rich, and lives a comfortable life, and that has much more to do with her high born status than her personality. Sure her love life was a shitstorm and she was subjected to plenty of injustices as any other noblewoman but which male peasant have a possibility to ascend to such position? Compare her with Gendry. After all injustices he suffered what he gained? Justified bitterness and a chance to join an outlaw band hunted by all the nobility. What Lady Dustin gained? Justified bitterness and all the power and comfort to enjoy her bitterness.I think Cersei also counts as an example, being queen regent.

And there's the point addressed by RandSedai that yes, Lysa and other noblewoman have no prospect if they run away from an unhappy marriage they were sold into, but likewise people like Pate are in the same condition. His choice to live as a maester even though he had no talent for such role mirrors the possible decision taken by a noble woman to live as a septa. Other option male peasants would have is the Wall which everyone can agree is hardly a good scenario. As RandSedai said:

Oh sure she can do some of these things. She would rather just live her life in Riverrun though with its comforts and wealth. Running away is a dice roll that Lysa could have done.

And not all men can just become hedge knights.

You have to have money/armor and a horse and you know...be knighted.

Then what was the point of writing.

"She cannot leave for Oldtown like Pate, join or cross the narrow sea, a wandering singer."

Do you think these people aren't alone and defenseless, without money and nowhere to go?

No, I believe Shae ran away from her household in these conditions as well.

My point is, Lysa did have the same choices. I'm not saying she deserves abuse.

.................................................................................................

Jesus Christ people.

I never said Lysa should have run away and become a prostitute. I only gave Shae as an example that women can run away as well and usually its not safe.

What WK is saying is apparently high born women have shit lives in some ways compared to peasant men because the latter can just run off and become knights and singers.

My point was, that was untrue.

WK responded that if Lysa ran away she would be alone and defenseless. My point is that its the same for peasant men. Not all of them have skills and very few of them can fight. Running away in Westeros is shitty situation for everyone.

What about that is so hard to understand?

And a question: what cissexual means? Is it the opposite of transsexual or the name we gave to people who are comfortable with the societal stereotypes defined for their gender? Because Sam's self-perception of his gender matches the sex he was assigned at birth, he is perfectly comfortable with being a male. What he, and myself for that matter, isn't comfortable with is the gender normativity society tries to introject into him. Liking poetry and dancing, not being assertive or confident, not having physical prowess and being shy with the opposite sex (and sometimes being mocked for it by men and women alike) don't make any man less 'male' id est less happy with the physiological implications of being born with such identity. And all the opposing characteristics used to define a male in a patriarchal society are what makes many men to live unfulfilled and sometimes sexually and affectively deprived lives (hence the suicide statistics among men that surpass women's) and that is a form of oppression in my opinion.

Obs: I was not implying that Lady Dustin's tragedy equates to Lysa's forced miscarriage or Cersei's abuse. I only used her as an example because she is a noble woman who doesn't have to answer to any man inside her house and that I can compare her status with Gendry because they are both very bitter characters.

[Winter's Knight]

Cissexual does mean that you're comfortable with the sex you were born with.

And I wasn't trying to say that a peasant man is all-round better off than a noblewman, but that in some respects he has priveliges she doesn't, just like she has some he doesn't.

[Chance Snow]

Ill probably get a lot of heat for this......but.... People need to stop getting upset because your already shaky ultra-progressive ideas dont get placated to IN A WORK OF FICTION!!!!!!!! Nobody victim blamed a girl who doesnt freaking exist. Care about rape and poor respect for your new-age feminist ideals in an area that actually matters. Were discussing a book here....yet, it always spirals down this way. I quit the board. Have a nice time.

[Queen Alienor]

I think Lysa was very much a product of her environment. In the beginning, it was probably just sibling rivalry with Catelyn. Lysa felt as if she was the lesser sister next to the golden girl Catelyn. She is in a very similar position to Arya here, who feels like the lesser sister, too. The difference between the two is that while Lysa tries to copy Catelyn, Arya decides to become the complete opposite of Sansa. Then, when it became clear that LF loved Cat, Lysa was probably really jealous, as she probably never had a man loving her like that. She wanted to steal him from Cat, maybe to prove to herself that at least this once, she had something Cat did not. That, as we all know, ended with the forced abortion and the loveless marriage plus LF always near and with probably quite big influence on her. She wasn't innocent, but she wasn't guilty of what she'd become, either.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

Cissexual does mean that you're comfortable with the sex you were born with.

Thank you. My point is that Sam is male, noble, straight and cissexual and nevertheless he is IMO the most oppressed noble character I can think of right now in the series, with the exception of Lollys and Daenerys (the latter is an exceptional case because she was exiled). Maybe I'm being prickly but considering that you mentioned Sam previously in your post I wanted to point that.

And I wasn't trying to say that a peasant man is all-round better off than a noblewman, but that in some respects he has priveliges she doesn't, just like she has some he doesn't.

I get it. What I said was that I still think class privileges play a much larger part in the power spectrum than gender issues in this case. I know that you agreed with the fact that, in some aspects, like comfort, safety and luxury, the noblewoman has it better than the peasant man but you said that in other aspects, like having bodily agency, having legal control over property and place of residence, the male peasant is in a better position and I still disagree with that and supported my view with the examples I gave: in war and at the Wall the male peasant has no control over his own body, his life is at the mercy of his liege lord all the time, if they run away they have just as much chance as a noblewoman, the noblewoman can inherit an entire household and have ultimate power within her lands if her husband dies, the peasant man will never acquire such power and wealth - in the end peasant men have nothing they can truly call their own and I think in the end they have very few privileges compared to noble woman: their sexuality and children (and in many cases not even that). Of course, within their own classes the men are often much more privileged compared to the women, but there's still cases like Sam's. I thought that RandSedai made good points when he said:

"And not all men can just become hedge knights.

You have to have money/armor and a horse and you know...be knighted."

"What WK is saying is apparently high born women have shit lives in some ways compared to peasant men because the latter can just run off and become knights and singers.

My point was, that was untrue.

WK responded that if Lysa ran away she would be alone and defenseless. My point is that its the same for peasant men. Not all of them have skills and very few of them can fight. Running away in Westeros is shitty situation for everyone."

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

Ill probably get a lot of heat for this......but.... People need to stop getting upset because your already shaky ultra-progressive ideas dont get placated to IN A WORK OF FICTION!!!!!!!! Nobody victim blamed a girl who doesnt freaking exist. Care about rape and poor respect for your new-age feminist ideals in an area that actually matters. Were discussing a book here....yet, it always spirals down this way. I quit the board. Have a nice time.

What proof do you have that the feminists in this forum don't care for this issue in real life? A fictional world is a social and cultural construction that reflects and affects worldviews, hence the effort they have to tackle these themes while discussing a fictional book.

[Petite Psycophant]

"if they run away they have just as much chance as a noblewoman, the noblewoman can inherit an entire household and have ultimate power within her lands if her husband dies"

I disagree with this. First of all there are many, many, many "ifs" that need to happen before this noblewoman acquire such power. In the case of Lysa Arryn, she was married to the lord of the Vale. The other noblewomen that are sworn to the Vale don't have the same amount of power, liberties, privileges that she has no matter how many male members of their family or husband die.

If Lysa decides to go to war than the nobles are expected to call their banners. They may have more of a choice than the peasants but they too are bound under the lord/lady of their kingdom and they again by their king/queen. I'm sure that a lord who decides to abandon the higher lord he's bound to, is a lot more likely to be hunted down and punished than a peasant.

When it comes to noblewomen gaining power through death, well poor lady Hornwood was not better of after husband died now was she? Neither was the Karstark girl who had to flee to The Wall. Even in lady Lysa's case she was pressured on all sides to marry quickly again which meant she would pass over all that power to her husband. Queen and King don't have the same power. Even though like in the case of Dany all the power came from her in the first place, the King would be considered to be the supreme ruler int he eyes of the people.

So the distinction is definitely sexual discrimination then class, because even if both man and women belong tot he same class and have the same opportunities and privileges, the women are always worse off and have less power and status. so, yes a noblewomen and a peasant girl are a lot closer in fate and status than a nobleman and a male peasant.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

"if they run away they have just as much chance as a noblewoman, the noblewoman can inherit an entire household and have ultimate power within her lands if her husband dies"

I disagree with this. First of all there are many, many, many "ifs" that need to happen before this noblewoman acquire such power. In the case of Lysa Arryn, she was married to the lord of the Vale. The other noblewomen that are sworn to the Vale don't have the same amount of power, liberties, privileges that she has no matter how many male members of their family or husband die.

Barbrey Dustin was married to a man who was sworn to the Starks. Now she is the most powerful person behind House Dustin. I agree this is a rare case but it's not like becoming a hedge knight or a singer is a piece of cake for anyone and a hedge knight has to risk his life constantly so it's not a very good life. There's also marriages that work very well for the women, like Catelyn and Eddard, Tywin and Joanna, Genna and Emmon, Ami and Lancel, Walda and Roose, Olenna and Luthor and Kevan and Dorna. All these women have much more power and wealth compared to the peasants. Compared to the men within their classes they don't have equality but I wasn't discussing that. Even if you want to take Jorah and the Dustin woman as the marriage paradigm in Westeros, a boring, insipid life is exactly what many male peasants have (when they're lucky). Everyone who is not her husband or a grown up son obeys the noblewoman's orders so she can exert privilege.

If Lysa decides to go to war than the nobles are expected to call their banners. They may have more of a choice than the peasants but they too are bound under the lord/lady of their kingdom and they again by their king/queen. I'm sure that a lord who decides to abandon the higher lord he's bound to, is a lot more likely to be hunted down and punished than a peasant.

In almost every case, during war, the peasant men who run away become broken men. Not a good fate. The lords who decide to abandon his higher lord are more likely to be hunted down and executed, I agree, but that is because they have social privilege in the first place and are in much more evidence than the peasant men, who are maintained in the condition of cattle or maneuver mass, which is much worse. The banner men will belong to the war council, a powerful position, and have a much better chance to survive the war. The noblewomen will stay at home worried and will have no calling in the course of war but they will be much safer than the male peasant.

When it comes to noblewomen gaining power through death, well poor lady Hornwood was not better of after husband died now was she? Neither was the Karstark girl who had to flee to The Wall. Even in lady Lysa's case she was pressured on all sides to marry quickly again which meant she would pass over all that power to her husband. Queen and King don't have the same power. Even though like in the case of Dany all the power came from her in the first place, the King would be considered to be the supreme ruler int he eyes of the people.

In Lady Hornwood's case Ramsay Snow, the spawn of the devil, happened and that is as much "if" as you get. How many noblewomen shared Lady Hornwood's fate? People are still horrified by what happened to her so that kind of thing is not common. If you are referring to the possibility of a neighbor lord conspire to have the noblewoman's lands taken and forcibly married the fact remains that lawfully they can't do that. The noblewoman can use an army or resort to her liege lord or his castellan to protect her interests, like Lady Hornwood did seeking help with Rodrick Cassel. It didn't work out but, again, Ramsay Snow happened. Plus everyone agreed that she should marry again but she still had the right to deny the suitors she didn't want, like Wymann Manderly, and no one could force her to marry him, only suggest. I'm not saying that is a great privilege; by any means it should be an unalienable right for any woman, but liberty, equal rights and opportunities and social justice are also unalienable rights and the male peasants don't have that. Again, the noblewoman don't have access to these rights as well but only compared to the nobleman, who are less than 1% of the population. My point is: compared to the peasant men they have it better. There's also the fact noblewoman can have an indolent life. Male peasants have to work to survive, sometimes in bad conditions.

In Alys Karstark's case she would be forced to be married and Harrion would be murdered sooner or later, so that had a lot to do with the political intrigue inside the family and the Karstark allegiance with the Bolton after one of the worst convoluted social turmoils the North had ever faced. So neither Alys or Harrion had a good prospect in this scenario.

Queen and King don't have the same amount of power. Never claimed that.

So the distinction is definitely sexual discrimination then class, because even if both man and women belong tot he same class and have the same opportunities and privileges, the women are always worse off and have less power and status. so, yes a noblewomen and a peasant girl are a lot closer in fate and status than a nobleman and a male peasant.

I still don't agree. I think it is class and then sexual discrimination. A noblewoman is oppressed by many forms in their feudal society but nowhere near as the peasants, male or female. And in rarer cases sexual discrimination cuts both ways, like in Sam's example.