How Difficult to Take Lannisport?

[Gneisenau]

Even though Robb killed Steffon Lannister, I always got the impression that a good part of his host is still alive, so they would still have contend with the remnants of Steffon's army.

[Trigger Warning]

Quite easy, based on the defensive structures. Cities are in no way comparable to castles there.

Is this specifically about the defensive structures of Lannisport (of which I know little and therefore concede the point if you have more knowledge) or a blanket statement about the defensive capabilities of cities when compared to castles?

Storming Antioch certainly wouldn't be an easy feat along with many walled cities in the past.

[Pod The Impaler]

Even though Robb killed Steffon Lannister, I always got the impression that a good part of his host is still alive, so they would still have contend with the remnants of Steffon's army.

Stafford.

Anyway, the account said they slaughtered 5 or more Lannisters for every casualty of their own. Those that survived were utterly routed and fled. And that army was the "sweepings" of Lannisport.

Seems like until Devan Lannister (much later) was able to reorganize the remnants of Jaime and Stafford's hosts to help besiege Riverrun, they were nullified as any sort of coherent fighting force.

As I said, if someone had intended to put Lannisport to the sword, what were left of them would likely have just retreated into Casterly Rock with as much supplies as they could get their hands on, and for the other host (Tywin's) to come and break the siege..

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Is this specifically about the defensive structures of Lannisport (of which I know little and therefore concede the point if you have more knowledge) or a blanket statement about the defensive capabilities of cities when compared to castles?

Storming Antioch certainly wouldn't be an easy feat along with many walled cities in the past.

Blanket statement. And Antioch was way easier to take than the Krak des Chevaliers, for example. The fortifications of a city built for living there coud never compare to those of a castle built for defense.

If they played in the same league, that is. Lannisport's defenses would beat the ones of the Drearfort, LF's castle on the FIngers, no questions asked.

Stafford.

Anyway, the account said they slaughtered 5 or more Lannisters for every casualty of their own. Those that survived were utterly routed and fled. And that army was the "sweepings" of Lannisport.

Seems like until Devan Lannister (much later) was able to reorganize the remnants of Jaime and Stafford's hosts to help besiege Riverrun, they were nullified as any sort of coherent fighting force.

As I said, if someone had intended to put Lannisport to the sword, what were left of them would likely have just retreated into Casterly Rock with as much supplies as they could get their hands on, and for the other host (Tywin's) to come and break the siege..

And Daven's force much later numbered only ~1,000 men.

[Gurkhal]

If Theon had successfully convinced Balon to be Robb's ally, this is likely what would have happened. Lannisport and other key coastal towns of the Westerlands would have been ravaged by the fleet Balon had assembled, and all those Ironborn invading would have cost Tywin the war. Casterly Rock could have survived a long siege with few men, but with almost all their defenders gone, Lannisport and other major towns would be sacked without mercy. I do not think Robb would have considered taking and holding the Lannister's main city capital important, but it would have forced Tywin into a losing position overall.

Possibly but thing is that Balon wanted to rule a great kingdom and not just plunder and then await a returned classic when the next king on the Iron Throne wins hearts and minds in the Westerlands by throwing the weight of Westeros upon the Iron Islands.

But to say that it would've cost Tywin the war is a bold statement. What could've cost Tywin the war was for the Tyrells to not ally with him. That's the central thing that determined the war and I doubt that Littlefinger and Mace would per necessity be drawn away from their objectives by this, even while it would've been a blow to Tywin and demanded that he'd invade the Iron Islands as well. It could of course, possibly, make the Tyrells think that House Lannister was a losing team.

[khal cium]

It's about 2 to 3 dragons hard.

[Trigger Warning]

Blanket statement. And Antioch was way easier to take than the Krak des Chevaliers, for example. The fortifications of a city built for living there coud never compare to those of a castle built for defense.

If they played in the same league, that is. Lannisport's defenses would beat the ones of the Drearfort, LF's castle on the FIngers, no questions asked.

And Daven's force much later numbered only ~1,000 men.

But easier doesn't always mean easy.

Antioch's fortifications were formidable.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

But easier doesn't always mean easy.

Antioch's fortifications were formidable.

Definitely. But Lannisport is still in no way comparable to Casterly Rock, Storms End, Winterfell, Harrenhal, Riverrun and all the other great castles.

[Mr Fixit]

I would have liked if Robb could have razed Lannisport to the ground, even if he could not hold it.

Which begs the question: why didn't he? There's one part of Robb's strategy that I could never quite understand. Why didn't he reunite his armies after Riverrun and Green Fork? Edmure and the riverlords would defend the river crossings (as they did) against Tywin, while Robb's combined force some 16-18000 strong could raze the Westerlands to the ground.

Look at what happened instead. Although Tywin only had 15-20k available (probably the lower number after all the battles) he's the one that had the initiative and kept his force busy. He sent Gregor to pillage and burn, he tried punching through to the West and he finally turned east and smashed Stannis.

On the other hand, once you add up Robb's forces, Bolton's army and Edmure's riverlords guarding the fords, Robb had a potential army 30k strong. However, of those 30k, only 5-6k were actively engaging the enemy, while the other 25k were chilling out, letting Tywin dictate if and when battle would be fought.

Seems like a disastrous military blunder to me.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Which begs the question: why didn't he? There's one part of Robb's strategy that I could never quite understand. Why didn't he reunite his armies after Riverrun and Green Fork? Edmure and the riverlords would defend the river crossings (as they did) against Tywin, while Robb's combined force some 16-18000 strong could raze the Westerlands to the ground.

Look at what happened instead. Although Tywin only had 15-20k available (probably the lower number after all the battles) he's the one that had the initiative and kept his force busy. He sent Gregor to pillage and burn, he tried punching through to the West and he finally turned east and smashed Stannis.

On the other hand, once you add up Robb's forces, Bolton's army and Edmure's riverlords guarding the fords, Robb had a potential army 30k strong. However, of those 30k, only 5-6k were actively engaging the enemy, while the other 25k were chilling out, letting Tywin dictate if and when battle would be fought.

Seems like a disastrous military blunder to me.

Roose's host couldn't reunite with Robb's without having to face Tywin. And the only reason Robb was able to enter the West at all was because he found a secret passage that bypassed the Gold Tooth but would have been too small for a 18,000 man army.

Edmure's plan of trapping Tywin between Riverrun and Harrenhal (which Roose took after Tywin left) was actually a good one, but was nullified by the Tyrells joining up with Tywin

[Mr Fixit]

Roose's host couldn't reunite with Robb's without having to face Tywin. And the only reason Robb was able to enter the West at all was because he found a secret passage that bypassed the Gold Tooth but would have been too small for a 18,000 man army.

I was proposing a plan that was to take place after that. Once Robb's cavalry smashed Stafford's host, the Bolton army could have marched over to the West as well via the Twins, bypassing Tywin completely. The only way for Tywin to head back would be across the fords where Edmure would be waiting, denying him passage. Seems quite workable to me.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I was proposing a plan that was to take place after that. Once Robb's cavalry smashed Stafford's host, the Bolton army could have marched over to the West as well via the Twins, bypassing Tywin completely. The only way for Tywin to head back would be across the fords where Edmure would be waiting, denying him passage. Seems quite workable to me.

Oh I see. Good point. Sacking Lannisport would have been a huge victory for Robb, but a costly one (both to his army and his morals - we all know what happens when a city is sacked)

[Mr Fixit]

Oh I see. Good point. Sacking Lannisport would have been a huge victory for Robb, but a costly one (both to his army and his morals - we all know what happens when a city is sacked)

Not only Lannisport would be vulnerable. Robb would be free to march up and down Westerlands at will, seizing one castle after another. How long before Tywin's power base breaks down completely?

It always seemed so strange that Robb has 25,000 additional men at his disposal doing nothing while he was doing all the heavy lifting with his paltry 5-6,000.

[jarl the climber]

Possibly but thing is that Balon wanted to rule a great kingdom and not just plunder and then await a returned classic when the next king on the Iron Throne wins hearts and minds in the Westerlands by throwing the weight of Westeros upon the Iron Islands.

But to say that it would've cost Tywin the war is a bold statement. What could've cost Tywin the war was for the Tyrells to not ally with him. That's the central thing that determined the war and I doubt that Littlefinger and Mace would per necessity be drawn away from their objectives by this, even while it would've been a blow to Tywin and demanded that he'd invade the Iron Islands as well. It could of course, possibly, make the Tyrells think that House Lannister was a losing team.

One thing people forget is that Redwyne Fleet was at the Arbor and that Lord Redwyne did not join the rebellion because his sons were held hostage.While the Redwynes might not be willing to fight against their relations in the Reach, Tywin could have probaly gotten them to fight the Ironborn without a larger alliance with the Reach. Probaly Balons assesment was correct and the Ironborn could never hold Lannisport for long under any realistic circumstances.

[Mr Fixit]

One thing people forget is that Redwyne Fleet was at the Arbor and that Lord Redwyne did not join the rebellion because his sons were held hostage.While the Redwynes might not be willing to fight against their relations in the Reach, Tywin could have probaly gotten them to fight the Ironborn without a larger alliance with the Reach. Probaly Balons assesment was correct and the Ironborn could never hold Lannisport for long under any realistic circumstances.

I seriously doubt lord Redwyne would unilaterally support Tywin against Balon. Why would he do it? Why would he risk his entire fleet for Tywin? And no, his sons aren't reason enough.

[jarl the climber]

I seriously doubt lord Redwyne would unilaterally support Tywin against Balon. Why would he do it? Why would he risk his entire fleet for Tywin? And no, his sons aren't reason enough.

Stafford Lannister was arranging a marriage between his son and Redwynes daughter around this time so I think its entirely plausible. It allows him to show his loyalty and perhaps win the freedom of at least one of his sons. Still Redwyne was hot for the Ironborn alliance when it was discussed in Council in ASOS, relations between him and Balon were probaly freindly. I do not think Balon was going to do anything that could have risked putting him against the Redwyne Fleet, the one force in the West capable of opposing him on the Seas. The threat alone was enough to dissuade him.

[Trigger Warning]

Not only Lannisport would be vulnerable. Robb would be free to march up and down Westerlands at will, seizing one castle after another. How long before Tywin's power base breaks down completely?

It always seemed so strange that Robb has 25,000 additional men at his disposal doing nothing while he was doing all the heavy lifting with his paltry 5-6,000.

The Lannisters and Tyrells would probably take that opportunity to trap him in the West and annihilate his entire host.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Not only Lannisport would be vulnerable. Robb would be free to march up and down Westerlands at will, seizing one castle after another. How long before Tywin's power base breaks down completely?

It always seemed so strange that Robb has 25,000 additional men at his disposal doing nothing while he was doing all the heavy lifting with his paltry 5-6,000.

I agree that Robb's overall strategic vision was very flawed. The thinking might have been that Roose's host was needed to defend the Riverlands, since Robb and the Blackfish clearly didn't hold Edmure's capabilities in much esteem. And their whole strategy was waiting for time until the "death blow" was dealt by Renly or Stannis at King's Landing. Not to mention Robb was expecting Greyjoy support - he likely didn't want to try for Lannisport without the Iron Fleet's help. In other words, Robb had no intention or plan to win the war on his own after he was crowned.

[Mr Fixit]

I agree that Robb's overall strategic vision was very flawed. The thinking might have been that Roose's host was needed to defend the Riverlands, since Robb and the Blackfish clearly didn't hold Edmure's capabilities in much esteem. And their whole strategy was waiting for time until the "death blow" was dealt by Renly or Stannis at King's Landing. Not to mention Robb was expecting Greyjoy support - he likely didn't want to try for Lannisport without the Iron Fleet's help. In other words, Robb had no intention or plan to win the war on his own after he was crowned.

Quite possible. A bad plan, still. He should've given his eastern armies some objectives instead of just sitting around. The thing is, for the majority of the war, after Golden Tooth, Robb had a 50% numerical advantage over Tywin and he never did anything with all those troops.

[Guardian of the Lhazareen]

Imagine what would have happened if the Ironborn sided with Robb? not only would he gain additional men but the north wouldn't come under attack so none of that whole mess, meaning he wouldn't have to go back north putting him in a much stronger overall position, also when he then sacks the west it would make the Tyrells think twice before joining with the Lanisters, they could possibly even mary off Margery to Edmure?? I recon he could of won the war if Balon wasn't a dick??