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Why does the NW goes so horribly down under Targaryens rule?


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#1 Seņor de la Tormenta 2

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 07:50 AM

Stay with me. I might ve asked this once, but theres several new info.

We know the NW has existed for several thousens years. Strong and important. Even when nobody has seen an other in centuries.

We know that in Aegons times, they had 10k men at arms under Harrions brother command, all the castles gaarrisoned and was in general healthy. And only 250 years ve passed since this moment and the patetc NW we see now, with less than 1k men at the begining of AGOT.

Now, because nobody has seen monsters or others is no real explanation. It didnt affected the watch in thousands of years, so it cant make that damage in a cuple houndred years.

Also, with all new material released we know Targaryen rule is not as paceful as we thought....the conquest, the fight for Dorne, The faith upraising, several dances of dragons and blackfires rebelions, the Greyjoys. Dukensale, RR, and GreyJoy are pretty enough conflicts to probaide enough ranks from political exiled...

There isnt, untik now an explanation I can really buy.

Edited by Seņor de la Tormenta 2, 19 December 2013 - 08:45 PM.


#2 fuem

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 07:59 AM

Because fire melts ice and when you have a 700 ft ice wall well.......



#3 Viserys - The last dragon

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 08:07 AM

I would probably say that its because every year that goes past without any WW or such, the king/other high lords did not think the NW matters. Just a bunch of old men who freeze, killing a few wildlings

#4 shearstone

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 08:17 AM

Perhaps people stopped caring about the Wildlings and Others because if worse came to worse the dragons would take care of them? So they just started sending undesirables there leaving only a few houses (mostly northern) to still class it as an honourable vocation. By the time the dragons were all dead the damage had been done and the Stigma of the Nights Watch being a place for criminals was irreversible 



#5 Fanless Mace

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 08:29 AM

Clearly the kingdom has been moving away from magic and into modernity. Dragons getting smaller and dying off, Others and Dire Wolves and the like not seen for ages south of the wall, etc. The Targs did nothing to honor the old ways and old religions, and both the Citadel and the Septs perhaps began to hold more sway over society, diminishing both the need for and the desire for magic.

One of the main themes seems to be modernity vs. antiquity, science (e.g., the firestorms tuff, whatever it's called) vs. magic, religion vs. not really caring about religion. We are on the cusp of something important in the history of this world, as magic is making perhaps a last dying gasp to be relevant anymore in a world of kings and men and ships and armor.

So for the Targs, the need to spend time and money defending against, well, magic and things unseen for centuries began to seem less important. We also know that by the time Robert is on the throne, the crown is in debt. I don't recall if we know whether The Mad King went into debt to fight RR, but I think at the very least we can assume the Targs, hundreds of leagues from the wall, forgot about the threat as their dragons grew smaller and news of strangeness from the North dwindled, and we're too cheap to keep funding it.

At a certain point, sending money and men to the Wall must have seemed akin to responding to those requests in my email for help moving funds from some Nigerian Prince's account in Nepal to my own bank account...I'm just not gonna do that again!

#6 Lord Fluffy of House Puffy

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 09:23 AM

My guess is that before the conquest the kingdoms where characterised by more frequent but lesser conflicts where the nobles that participated in them didnt die as often and if they where captured serving at the wall didnt seem so bad especially if you where a second or third son and you could find a place of honor after defeat. The common folk who participated in these conflicts who lost but survived may have also been sent to the wall. Thus insuring a steady trickle of people to the wall.

 

After the conquest Westeros seems to have been characterised by bigger wars where people where either killed or pardoned for the most part so going to the wall wasnt such a popular choice anymore. The wars here werent as frequent as the wars before the conquest, but as i said bigger and more devestating. But who knows.  :dunno:   



#7 Bronn Urgandy

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 09:30 AM

I am starting to believe that everything the Targaryens touch turns to shit



#8 Shadrich

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 09:34 AM

I am starting to believe that everything the Targaryens touch turns to shit

 

Haha, yes. It seems to.



#9 The Iron Banker

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 09:35 AM

I guess because the Targs were new, have never seen stuff from beyond the wall so they dont believe the stories and they dont care. They had dragons



#10 Arland

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 09:40 AM

Targerians came from Essos. NW and WW is a Westerossi lore and I guess that Targerians, who were not brought up on it, didn't give it much respect. I guess Westerosi nobles adopted and mimicked that way of thinking too - especialy the ones in the South.



#11 Nictarion

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 09:57 AM

Some Targaryens have been huge supporters of the NW. Jaehaerys l and Good Queen Alysanne visited the Wall on their dragons.

Maester Aemon also devoted his life to serving the NW.

And Robert Baratheon certainly didn't consider the NW and the Wall a top priority either, even though they had fallen to their lowest numbers in history.

#12 Arthur Dayne's Honor Alt

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 09:59 AM

Some Targaryens have been huge supporters of the NW. Jaehaerys l and Good Queen Alysanne visited the Wall on their dragons.

Maester Aemon also devoted his life to serving the NW.

And Robert Baratheon certainly didn't consider the NW and the Wall a top priority either, even though they had fallen to their lowest numbers in history.

this. Besides I'm pretty sure the NW was in disrepair before the Conquest

#13 Seņor de la Tormenta 2

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:08 AM

Some Targaryens have been huge supporters of the NW. Jaehaerys l and Good Queen Alysanne visited the Wall on their dragons.

Maester Aemon also devoted his life to serving the NW.

And Robert Baratheon certainly didn't consider the NW and the Wall a top priority either, even though they had fallen to their lowest numbers in history.

Im sorry but Aemon is no valid example. A maester doesnt chosse were to go.
We do not know of any trueborn Targaryen serving in the wall, just bloodraven.

#14 Nictarion

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:10 AM

Im sorry but Aemon is no valid example. A maester doesnt chosse were to go.
We do not know of any trueborn Targaryen serving in the wall, just bloodraven.

Maester Aemon did choose the Wall though. He chose the Wall to make certain Egg's rule would be unquestioned, and no one could use him to try to usurp his brother.

Edited by Nictarion, 19 December 2013 - 10:14 AM.


#15 Dain Storm

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:16 AM

Maester Aemon did choose the Wall though. He was offered the throne and turned it down.


Yup. He feared he would be used in a plot to usurp his brother, and chose to go to the wall. I'd say he was pretty devoted to the cause of the Night's Watch.

Targs weren't the reason for the regression of the NW. But Jahaerys giving the NW the new gift might not actually have been a good thing.

#16 Victarion the Awesome

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:29 AM

When the Seven Kingdoms were actually seven kingdoms, there was lots of infighting (more POWs) and no king's justice, so the Wall was where you sent enemy combatants that you didn't want to become martyrs or fight again.



#17 RoamingRonin

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:33 AM

OP: It seems you're implying the NW got worse because the Targaryens came into power. The Iron Throne isn't responsible for manning the Wall. It's something every high and low lord can do. The Wall even accepts people from all over the world, it seems. 

 

So, if the Wall is losing man-power, it's because everyone all over the 7-kingdoms stopped caring. 

 

Im sorry but Aemon is no valid example. A maester doesnt chosse were to go.
We do not know of any trueborn Targaryen serving in the wall, just bloodraven.

 

Aemon gave a whole speech to Jon about how he chose the Wall over the Iron Throne. He could have been king multiple times but he stayed on the Wall. This was a very important scene in the first book, Senor de la Tormenta. 

 



#18 Seņor de la Tormenta 2

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:38 AM

OP: It seems you're implying the NW got worse because the Targaryens came into power. The Iron Throne isn't responsible for manning the Wall. It's something every high and low lord can do. The Wall even accepts people from all over the world, it seems. 
 
So, if the Wall is losing man-power, it's because everyone all over the 7-kingdoms stopped caring. 
 
 
Aemon gave a whole speech to Jon about how he chose the Wall over the Iron Throne. He could have been king multiple times but he stayed on the Wall. This was a very important scene in the first book, Senor de la Tormenta. 

 

I remember the chapter. In fact, its the same chapter when he tell Jon the NW had 10k warriors in Aegons time, and that Harrions brother didnt make a move when he learned about his brothers fafe.

Aemon is sworn to the order of Maesters. He is not a black brother . Thats why Jon can send him back to oldtown. Thats just my point.

Edited by Seņor de la Tormenta 2, 19 December 2013 - 10:39 AM.


#19 Kienn

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:41 AM

Because the maesters are systemically turning old stories of magic into fairy tales because they want a world with no magic, with no dragons.



#20 Hear me Meow

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:41 AM

Aemon is definitely in the Night's Watch. He said the vows.