Jump to content


Photo

Was Ned Really That Bad of a Catch for Ashara Dayne


  • Please log in to reply
93 replies to this topic

#1 Arthur Dayne's Honor Alt

Arthur Dayne's Honor Alt

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 296 posts

Posted 19 December 2013 - 12:57 PM

I was on another topic recently and I read that people felt Ashara was way out of Ned's league(politically) But was she really? I mean Ned was 2nd in line for the Lordship over a major house, best friends/borderline lover to The Lord of House Baratheon(another Great House), raised in the Vale by The Lord of House Arryn(another great house) befriending Vale lords along the way, and through his brother Brandon (House Tully) would align with him. Ned and Ashara IMO would be a great catch for House Dayne.

#2 ladytiger

ladytiger

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 369 posts

Posted 19 December 2013 - 01:15 PM

I think it would've been a good match, considering Rickard's Southron ambitions. However, since Ned was a second son, I would think that Rickard would've married him to one of his liege lord's daughters so that the Northerners wouldn't think that he was getting too greedy about marrying his kids to Southerners. Not sure where Benjen would've come into this if Ned married Ashara or if he would've had to take the Black as a third son.



#3 Lord Reaver

Lord Reaver

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,365 posts

Posted 19 December 2013 - 01:28 PM

The second son of a northern house is a -terrible- match for the Daynes. Take a look at who Allyria Dayne got betrothed to: Beric Dondarrion. Now that's a sensible match. Something along those lines would have been much better for Ashara too.



#4 The Sleeper

The Sleeper

    A series of biological ephemera

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,660 posts

Posted 19 December 2013 - 01:43 PM

By birth and blood, Ned was a good league above Ashara. A second son of a major house would be as good a catch as it would normally get for Ashara (landing an heir would be like winning the lottery). However, the two house in question are on opposite sides of the kingdom, such a much would not be politically relevent for either. 



#5 Dave17

Dave17

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 85 posts

Posted 19 December 2013 - 01:58 PM

I think Ashara probably could have done better than Ned.
She was from a very famous nobel family.
Her brother was best friends with the future king.
She was very beautiful.

And unless Brandon was generous and gave Ned some land she would have been a Lady of no lands and wouldnt really have a 'home'. They would have been guests of honor at any kingdom in the land but with nowhere to settle down and have a family

#6 CosimaistheHottest

CosimaistheHottest

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,009 posts

Posted 19 December 2013 - 03:06 PM

I think Ashara probably could have done better than Ned.
She was from a very famous nobel family.
Her brother was best friends with the future king.
She was very beautiful.

And unless Brandon was generous and gave Ned some land she would have been a Lady of no lands and wouldnt really have a 'home'. They would have been guests of honor at any kingdom in the land but with nowhere to settle down and have a family

 

This. 

 

No one is saying that Ashara is better than Ned. People are saying that she has the opportunity to become Lady of a very powerful House(Redwyne,Arryn,Connington-he was gonna have to marry sooner or later, and others) even if some of those were bannerman to a great House. An opportunity that she wouldn't have if she married a second son especially with the fact that Cat seems very fertile so it took unforeseen circumstances to reduce the family what they are today.

 

Not only that but Ashara is still a noblewoman, her parents or oldest sibling would have the final say. They would want her to receive the best possible betrothal that they feel she can get. So if they see a better opportunity they would be more inclined to say no to Ned/Rickard if asked.



#7 SuperTechmarine

SuperTechmarine

    The Bastard Dragon

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,706 posts

Posted 19 December 2013 - 03:15 PM

At the time yes.



#8 FerociousVeldtRoarer

FerociousVeldtRoarer

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,233 posts

Posted 19 December 2013 - 03:27 PM

And unless Brandon was generous and gave Ned some land she would have been a Lady of no lands and wouldnt really have a 'home'.


There seems to be a tradition of younger Stark brothers becoming small scale lords, with their own keeps and lands (sworn to Winterfell, obviously). That's what Ned told Bran in the first chapter, and I think there's an SSM about it, too (can't find it now, though). So no, Mrs. Eddard Stark wouldn't be homeless. Lord Whathisname Dayne could've thought that marrying Ashara to someone else would be better business, but that has absolutely nothing to do with her being supposedly "out of Ned's league". Ned was still a son of Lord of Winterfell, maybe a Targaryen princess would be truly out of his league, but that's it.

#9 Arthur Dayne's Honor Alt

Arthur Dayne's Honor Alt

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 296 posts

Posted 19 December 2013 - 03:30 PM

There seems to be a tradition of younger Stark brothers becoming small scale lords, with their own keeps and lands (sworn to Winterfell, obviously). That's what Ned told Bran in the first chapter, and I think there's an SSM about it, too (can't find it now, though). So no, Mrs. Eddard Stark wouldn't be homeless. Lord Whathisname Dayne could've thought that marrying Ashara to someone else would be better business, but that has absolutely nothing to do with her being supposedly "out of Ned's league". Ned was still a son of Lord of Winterfell, maybe a Targaryen princess would be truly out of his league, but that's it.

plus Ned came with ALOT of powerful political connections. I also had a thought that Ned would live in Storm's End with Robert and Lyanna.

#10 CosimaistheHottest

CosimaistheHottest

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,009 posts

Posted 19 December 2013 - 03:32 PM

There seems to be a tradition of younger Stark brothers becoming small scale lords, with their own keeps and lands (sworn to Winterfell, obviously). That's what Ned told Bran in the first chapter, and I think there's an SSM about it, too (can't find it now, though). So no, Mrs. Eddard Stark wouldn't be homeless. Lord Whathisname Dayne could've thought that marrying Ashara to someone else would be better business, but that has absolutely nothing to do with her being supposedly "out of Ned's league". Ned was still a son of Lord of Winterfell, maybe a Targaryen princess would be truly out of his league, but that's it.

 

But it isn't for all of them. This is Ned's thoughts. He probably wanted Bran to have something of his own. This doesn't necessarily mean that the elder Brandon or Rickard would have given Ned the holdfast. Truthfully, if this did happen alot especially in the North we would see a lot more Starks of so and so. 



#11 Ser Leftwich

Ser Leftwich

    Baker of Humble Frey pies!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,619 posts

Posted 19 December 2013 - 03:34 PM

There are two reasons why Ned would not be a good catch for Lord Dayne to marry Ashara to:

1) Political maneuvering: Ashara is a lady-in-waiting for the queen to be Elia. She is reportedly very attractive. The Dayne's seem to be well connected to the ruling family, Ashara is at court and Arthur is in the KG. Why would Lord Dayne arrange a marriage for Ashara to a second son from any family? Why would he send her to court in KL, if he is fishing for a Stark marriage?

 

2) Second son marriages and arrangements:

Evidence we have for marriages for second sons:

Garlan Tyrell - a Fossoway from the Reach

Kevan Lannister - a Swyft from the Westerlands

Stannis Baratheon - a Florent (and this was after Robert became king!)

Brynden Tully - arranged for a Redwyne, but it did not happen

 

None of those marriages are that great, granted we don't know how many of them were arranged, except the Tully one.



#12 CosimaistheHottest

CosimaistheHottest

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,009 posts

Posted 19 December 2013 - 03:35 PM

plus Ned came with ALOT of powerful political connections. I also had a thought that Ned would live in Storm's End with Robert and Lyanna.

 

Doesn't mean that Ned could still marry Ashara especially with better prospects out there. Arryn, Connington and others. Doubt it would have been Ned Stark of Winterfell.

 

Ned probably would have married in the North. Rickard shored up alliances with the South for this only daughter and heir. 

To keep the North pacified, he could have Ned wed one of the daughters of his bannerman .



#13 Apple Martini

Apple Martini

    The Snarker on the Wall

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,784 posts

Posted 19 December 2013 - 03:42 PM

I think that Ashara being a daughter of a major-but-not-paramount house and Ned being the second son of a paramount house probably made them equal-ish match-wise. We've seen that some non-heirs still land major appointments (think Tyland Lannister); it's possible that Ned could have gotten a plum political assignment even if he didn't inherit Winterfell. It's also possible that Rickard could have given Ned his own land and holdings to start a second branch, a new Karstark-esque offshoot.

 

I think the match's shortcomings are more about geography (Dorne and the North have pretty much nothing in common there, apart from being the two extremes), not social standing.



#14 John Hulboy

John Hulboy

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 540 posts

Posted 19 December 2013 - 03:48 PM

I see.Ned as a great match with Ashara ..2nd son LOL Ned has big friends an if his brother lives he would have definitely would have had lands an titles ..they are on opposite sides of realm but i get the feeling having the north the vale riverlands behind you if needed would be pretty safe politically.

#15 Arthur Dayne's Honor Alt

Arthur Dayne's Honor Alt

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 296 posts

Posted 19 December 2013 - 03:58 PM

Also hypothetically What if Ned and Ashara were in fact in love. Would Ashara's father have been happy with the marriage or would he be utterly against the idea.

#16 Pod The Impaler

Pod The Impaler

    In The Mouth Of Starkness

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,530 posts

Posted 19 December 2013 - 04:05 PM

I was on another topic recently and I read that people felt Ashara was way out of Ned's league(politically) But was she really? I mean Ned was 2nd in line for the Lordship over a major house, best friends/borderline lover to The Lord of House Baratheon(another Great House), raised in the Vale by The Lord of House Arryn(another great house) befriending Vale lords along the way, and through his brother Brandon (House Tully) would align with him. Ned and Ashara IMO would be a great catch for House Dayne.

 

 

The match would have been fine. A daughter of a second-tier house marrying the second son of a 1st tier house (ruling the entire north) is nothing unusual. 

 

The problem was not the match, but then Lyanna's abduction, Brandon Stark's marriage, and then the war. They certainly had a thing for each other, but then Ned had to marry Catelyn and that was the end of it.

Certainly the fact that ned had to kill her brother during the war did not help matters.



#17 The Doctor's Consort

The Doctor's Consort

    Disruptive Influence.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,684 posts

Posted 19 December 2013 - 04:16 PM

Well, Ashara was a daughter of a Dornish house who could have married another Dornish or not Dornish Lord, when Ned was a second son of a Lord. Which means that he would be either his brother's glorified servant or he would have taken a poor stronghold. 

 

If you have a beautifull daughter who could have married a Lord, a second son is a bad match.



#18 FerociousVeldtRoarer

FerociousVeldtRoarer

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,233 posts

Posted 19 December 2013 - 04:40 PM

There are two reasons why Ned would not be a good catch for Lord Dayne to marry Ashara to:
1) Political maneuvering: Ashara is a lady-in-waiting for the queen to be Elia. She is reportedly very attractive. The Dayne's seem to be well connected to the ruling family, Ashara is at court and Arthur is in the KG. Why would Lord Dayne arrange a marriage for Ashara to a second son from any family? Why would he send her to court in KL, if he is fishing for a Stark marriage?


As I mentioned before, whether the marriage would be politically profitable for House Dayne or not, is another issue. But a mésalliance it would not be.

2) Second son marriages and arrangements:
Evidence we have for marriages for second sons:
Garlan Tyrell - a Fossoway from the Reach
Kevan Lannister - a Swyft from the Westerlands
Stannis Baratheon - a Florent (and this was after Robert became king!)
Brynden Tully - arranged for a Redwyne, but it did not happen
 
None of those marriages are that great, granted we don't know how many of them were arranged, except the Tully one.


One, I'd say that a Redwyne girl for a younger Tully is just as good a match as a Dayne girl for a younger Stark. Two, there's another match for another second son: Tywin tried to marry off Cersei to Oberyn Martell. That's a daughter of Casterly Rock, socially and politically a few rungs above Ashara Dayne (whether she's considered "Robert's sloppy seconds" or "king's mother" is a glass half full/glass half empty kind of deal).

BTW, browsing family trees fishing for arguments, I found for example one Janna Tyrell, Lord Paramount's daughter, married to a mere Ser Jon Fossoway. Not even a lord (and the "green" Fossoways are a brand new house to boot). And nobody seems to consider that improper.

#19 Arthur Dayne's Honor Alt

Arthur Dayne's Honor Alt

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 296 posts

Posted 19 December 2013 - 05:01 PM

I think any decent Father, even in Westerosi society, would at least give the guy his daughter is love with a chance.

#20 C0bR

C0bR

    Gwynbleidd

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,792 posts

Posted 19 December 2013 - 05:04 PM

Of course he would've been a great match. It's not like the Daynes are some great and powerful house. They are just an old house.

 

As others said, Ned would probably marry a bannerman's daughter though.


Edited by C0bR, 19 December 2013 - 05:04 PM.