Reexamining the blue flower on the wall of ice - what does it really mean for Jon?

[J. Stargaryen]

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice and filled the air with sweetness

Please note it says flower, then google blue flower symbolism.

A rose is a flower, but not all flowers are roses.

Death also fills the air with sweetness.

In Dany's next chapter it is referred to as a blue rose by Ser Jorah:

“Perhaps,” she said reluctantly. “Yet the things I saw…”

“A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood… what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? A mummer’s dragon, you said. What is a mummer’s dragon, pray?”

- ACoK, Daenerys V

From the context of the conversation, it appears as if Dany and Jorah already discussed her visions off page.

[Wayate]

Also Ice was taken apart and made into two separate swords, Oathbreaker and the one that Joffery received as a wedding gift from Tywin. Unless you are referring to a completely different sword that I have never heard of.

Same here, can you explain the "long lost blade" ?

[ghosts in winterfell]

Quick nugget here, I assume you also believe that R+L were married by your comment about him being before Dany in the line of succession. They would have to be for Jon to be considered a Targaryen. If they weren't, Jon would be considered a bastard with no claims whatsoever...Unless someone legitmizes him, which I don't think anyone with the power to do that would because his claim would instantly be better than anyone elses.

This is quite true. Despite its very high plausibility R+L=J itself has yet to be confirmed, so its much too early to come to these kinds of conclusions. Jon may very well be a bastard after all. I'm also drawing a blank on who would be the one to legitimize him.

Also Ice was taken apart and made into two separate swords, Oathbreaker and the one that Joffery received as a wedding gift from Tywin. Unless you are referring to a completely different sword that I have never heard of.

"Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North."

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that this meant the Ice we see here is not the original Ice -- that it was lost somewhere in history and the Valyrian blade was its replacement.

[Wayate]

"Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North."

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that this meant the Ice we see here is not the original Ice -- that it was lost somewhere in history and the Valyrian blade was its replacement.

I love this !

[Roddy the Ruin]

I love this !

i think the OG Ice was the orginal Lightbringer

[Audrey Arryn]

I think the chink is a hint of Jon bringing the wall down or something.

I wouldn't be shocked if Jon joins sides with the others in the next book.

[ghosts in winterfell]

I think the chink is a hint of Jon bringing the wall down or something.

I wouldn't be shocked if Jon joins sides with the others in the next book.

I agree! This new alliance could be another potential "chink" -- the Night's Watch is at an official end when Jon lets the Others pass down into the realm.

[ghosts in winterfell]

I don't know why people are so dismissive of Danm's sweetness catch. Seems quite like something GRRM would do, actually.

I agree. I think it's pretty solid and I was surprised to see so many shooting it down.

[WeaselPie]

Blue roses are associated with Winterfell maidens. Sansa is the only one associated with roses in the current story.

[Petyr Patter]

I wouldn't be so certain the Blue Rose in the Wall is a symbol of Jon. So as long as we are examining alternative interpretations...

Blue roses in general are flowers that grow in the glass gardens of Winterfell. They have been strongly associated with two characters so far, one being Lyanna Stark, who was given a crown of blue roses by Rhaegard and the Tourney of Harenhall, and if my memory serves she was still wearing it when she died in Eddard's arms.

The other character is the legendary Bael the Bard, a wildling who became King beyond the Wall. However, he snuck into Winterfell under the guise of a bard, and played so well he was offered a boon by Brandon the Daughterless, who actually had one daughter. Bael asked for the most beautiful flower in the gardens of Winterfell, which Brandon thought to mean a Winter Rose. However, the next day his nameless daughter was gone, replaced by that flower.

Despite a lengthy and thorough search, they were never found. However, about a year later, the daughter returned having given birth to a son. They had been hiding together in Winterfell crypts the entire time. Without any other heirs, that son become Lord of Winterfell when his grandfather died. Later, he led his own armies to defeat a new King Beyond the Wall, who happened to Bael, his father. He killed without knowing this truth and presented the head to his mother, who had apparently loved the wildling and jumped off a tower to her death. Or perhaps it was the shame that her son was now a kinslayer.

Anyways, the Blue Rose is a symbol of Winterfell itself, much like the Rose and House Tyrell. No matter how many roses Loras wears, gives away, or otherwise associates himself with, it is still a symbol beyond himself. Interestingly, it is a symbol that Jon has never donned himself. It is also more problematic because he wasn't born in Winterfell and has chosen to distance himself as much as possible from Winterfell and the Stark name.

However, there is a character who...

• is born a Stark of Winterfell in Winterfell.
  
• was called "sweetest."
  
• is associated with plants and growing.
  
• is committed to fighting the threat of the Others.
  
• hid in the crypts of Winterfell.
  
• fell from a tower of Winterfell.
  
• crossed the Wall so he might "grow."
  

So, yeah. Bran Stark. Makes as much sense or more than Jon. Of course, that doesn't really explain the vision, but I suspect Danaerys will meet with Bran.

[Muggle]

i think the OG Ice was the orginal Lightbringer

I think the original Ice was a sword that belonged to an other. And Dawn is the original Lightbringer.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

I don't think the " ...blue rose.." means that Jon is going to be preserved in the wall while someone gets around to his resurrection.

[ghosts in winterfell]

Blue roses are associated with Winterfell maidens. Sansa is the only one associated with roses in the current story.

If Jon is the son of a Winterfell maiden, wouldn't he be associated by extension?

I wouldn't be so certain the Blue Rose in the Wall is a symbol of Jon. So as long as we are examining alternative interpretations...

-------------------------------------------------------

However, there is a character who...

• is born a Stark of Winterfell in Winterfell.

was called "sweetest."

is associated with plants and growing.

is committed to fighting the threat of the Others.

hid in the crypts of Winterfell.

fell from a tower of Winterfell.

crossed the Wall so he might "grow."

So, yeah. Bran Stark. Makes as much sense or more than Jon. Of course, that doesn't really explain the vision, but I suspect Danaerys will meet with Bran.

This last bit is very interesting!

[J. Stargaryen]

If Jon is the son of a Winterfell maiden, wouldn't he be associated by extension?

^ This. In both blue rose instances (Bael and Lyanna) the maidens of Winterfell gave birth to sons.

[ghosts in winterfell]

I don't think the " ...blue rose.." means that Jon is going to be preserved in the wall while someone gets around to his resurrection.

?? This is not what I was suggesting.

[Roddy the Ruin]

I think the original Ice was a sword that belonged to an other. And Dawn is the original Lightbringer.

AND ARTHUR DAYNE IS ALIVE AND IS AAR! :commie:

[J. Stargaryen]

Anyways, the Blue Rose is a symbol of Winterfell itself, much like the Rose and House Tyrell. No matter how many roses Loras wears, gives away, or otherwise associates himself with, it is still a symbol beyond himself. Interestingly, it is a symbol that Jon has never donned himself. It is also more problematic because he wasn't born in Winterfell and has chosen to distance himself as much as possible from Winterfell and the Stark name.

However, there is a character who...

• is born a Stark of Winterfell in Winterfell.
• was called "sweetest."
• is associated with plants and growing.
• is committed to fighting the threat of the Others.
• hid in the crypts of Winterfell.
• fell from a tower of Winterfell.
• crossed the Wall so he might "grow."

So, yeah. Bran Stark. Makes as much sense or more than Jon. Of course, that doesn't really explain the vision, but I suspect Danaerys will meet with Bran.

I've done a thread on all of the blue rose mentions in the series here and my conclusion is that the blue roses definitely represent Jon. Or, to put a finer point on it, they represent the truth of his identity.

I couldn't find any direct association between Bran and blue roses, with the possible exception of a tie in to the Bael story, which you allude to.

ETA: Allow me to address each of your points.

• So were Ned, and Benjen, etc.
• Sansa is also referred to as "sweetling," etc.
• Because he might become part of the weir-net, like Bloodraven?
• Maybe, but some see a darker path for Bran.
• Yes, but the answer to Jon Snow's identity might also be hidden down there. Though I do think the "hiding" could be Bran's part in the Bael story, which might serve as a sort of composite tale for the Starks.
• Same as above.
• That's quite a twist on the quote, as the rose is said to grow "from" the Wall.

[Lyse Stark]

^ This. In blue blue rose instances (Bael and Lyanna) the maidens of Winterfell gave birth to sons.

I agree. Jon is the blue rose because he's Lyanna's son, and if the sweetness=negative associaton stands true for Daenerys, then Jon is the rightful heir to the throne, not her. And she won't take it very well, since she thinks the IT belong to her. This entitlement, as well as her actions in the DotD 2.0 will ulimately earn her many enemies in Westeros, and thus cost her the IT.

[WeaselPie]

I wouldn't be so certain the Blue Rose in the Wall is a symbol of Jon. So as long as we are examining alternative interpretations...

Blue roses in general are flowers that grow in the glass gardens of Winterfell. They have been strongly associated with two characters so far, one being Lyanna Stark, who was given a crown of blue roses by Rhaegard and the Tourney of Harenhall, and if my memory serves she was still wearing it when she died in Eddard's arms.

The other character is the legendary Bael the Bard, a wildling who became King beyond the Wall. However, he snuck into Winterfell under the guise of a bard, and played so well he was offered a boon by Brandon the Daughterless, who actually had one daughter. Bael asked for the most beautiful flower in the gardens of Winterfell, which Brandon thought to mean a Winter Rose. However, the next day his nameless daughter was gone, replaced by that flower.

Despite a lengthy and thorough search, they were never found. However, about a year later, the daughter returned having given birth to a son. They had been hiding together in Winterfell crypts the entire time. Without any other heirs, that son become Lord of Winterfell when his grandfather died. Later, he led his own armies to defeat a new King Beyond the Wall, who happened to Bael, his father. He killed without knowing this truth and presented the head to his mother, who had apparently loved the wildling and jumped off a tower to her death. Or perhaps it was the shame that her son was now a kinslayer.

Anyways, the Blue Rose is a symbol of Winterfell itself, much like the Rose and House Tyrell. No matter how many roses Loras wears, gives away, or otherwise associates himself with, it is still a symbol beyond himself. Interestingly, it is a symbol that Jon has never donned himself. It is also more problematic because he wasn't born in Winterfell and has chosen to distance himself as much as possible from Winterfell and the Stark name.

However, there is a character who...

• is born a Stark of Winterfell in Winterfell.

was called "sweetest."

is associated with plants and growing.

is committed to fighting the threat of the Others.

hid in the crypts of Winterfell.

fell from a tower of Winterfell.

crossed the Wall so he might "grow."

So, yeah. Bran Stark. Makes as much sense or more than Jon. Of course, that doesn't really explain the vision, but I suspect Danaerys will meet with Bran.

This is excellent.

[ghosts in winterfell]

I agree. Jon is the blue rose because he's Lyanna's son, and if the sweetness=negative associaton stands true for Daenerys, then Jon is the rightful heir to the throne, not her. And she won't take it very well, since she thinks the IT belong to her. This entitlement, as well as her actions in the DotD 2.0 will ulimately earn her many enemies in Westeros, and thus cost her the IT.

:agree:

I think she may actually "win" the IT, for a time, but her run-in with fAegon is going to take a huge toll on the realm as well as her sanity, I think. I can't imagine she would be very happy to find out that there is another secret Targ out there somewhere.