Reexamining the blue flower on the wall of ice - what does it really mean for Jon?

[Roddy the Ruin]

:agree:

I think she may actually "win" the IT, for a time, but her run-in with fAegon is going to take a huge toll on the realm as well as her sanity, I think. I can't imagine she would be very happy to find out that there is another secret Targ out there somewhere.

i suggest you read up on Fire Eater's Rundown of the Dance of Dragons 2.0. It's quite interesting

[ghosts in winterfell]

i suggest you read up on Fire Eater's Rundown of the Dance of Dragons 2.0. It's quite interesting

Very interesting, thank you!

[WeaselPie]

I can think of one Winterfell maiden who has already had foreshadowing about being buried in ice with Needle clutched in her hands. Arya.

ETA and it's Arya who has been so closely compared to Lyanna

IMO The blue flower has got to be a Stark kid... no reason for it to necessarily mean Jon.

[ghosts in winterfell]

I can think of one Winterfell maiden who has already had foreshadowing about being buried in ice with Needle clutched in her hands. Arya.

ETA and it's Arya who has been so closely compared to Lyanna

IMO The blue flower has got to be a Stark kid... no reason for it to necessarily mean Jon.

I had thought this was foreshadowing of some sort, but I hadn't made this conncection. Good catch!

[WeaselPie]

I'm going to throw JS some props for bringing up that Dany dreams of a blue flower, then Jorah calls it a blue rose.

Surely Jorah heard all the same tales as a kid as the Starks did, including Bael the Bard. Who is he kidding that he doesn't know what a blue rose might mean? This is a bit off topic, so I apologize OP, but I've said before that Jorah was up to something else other than selling some poachers into slavery, and so was Jeor when he ran off to the Wall. They have a close Hightower association and may have been privy to certain prophecies and inside information.

At the very least, as a child of the North and Stark Bannerman, Jorah would have known the story of Bael the Bard and the Blue Rose of Winterfell.

Cheers.

[ghosts in winterfell]

I'm going to throw JS some props for bringing up that Dany dreams of a blue flower, then Jorah calls it a blue rose.

Surely Jorah heard all the same tales as a kid as the Starks did, including Bael the Bard. Who is he kidding that he doesn't know what a blue rose might mean? This is a bit off topic, so I apologize OP, but I've said before that Jorah was up to something else other than selling some poachers into slavery, and so was Jeor when he ran off to the Wall. They have a close Hightower association and may have been privy to certain prophecies and inside information.

At the very least, as a child of the North and Stark Bannerman, Jorah would have known the story of Bael the Bard and the Blue Rose of Winterfell.

Cheers.

Interesting. Could you elaborate on what you think the real reasons may be? What kind of secrets/prophecies may they have come across?

[WeaselPie]

Interesting. Could you elaborate on what you think the real reasons may be? What kind of secrets/prophecies may they have come across?

That's a topic for another discussion, I'm afraid and I don't want to derail the topic,. And since I don't have a Kindle, grabbing text isn't so easy for me.

[ghosts in winterfell]

For what 'tis worth, I suspect Dany will not see Jon as a threat, but rather as a husband and consort. Also, I do not see the merit in danm's argument about sweetness as applied to the HOTU vision. Inductive arguments can be tripped up by one counter-case, and there are black swans, after all.

On the other hand, I do see the blue flower as the key to Dany learning about Jon's parentage. Tyrion and Ser Barristan know enough between them to figure it out, provided that Ser Jorah or Dany asks them about it. Marwyn's recounting of the danger at the wall as related to him by Samwell could be the stimulus to the discussion.

Agree to disagree, I guess. I feel that GRRM has made an effort to show us that incest is a no-go.

[Ser Creighton]

Ummm if I may I believe this topic should be titled Reexamining the Blue Rose on the Wall again to the 6th power.

Lets be honest this is not the Blue flowers first rodeo on these boards, it gets around a bit.

[ghosts in winterfell]

Ummm if I may I believe this topic should be titled Reexamining the Blue Rose on the Wall again to the 6th power.

Lets be honest this is not the Blue flowers first rodeo on these boards, it gets around a bit.

I'm so sorry for forcing you to read this, how rude of -- oh, wait. By all means, keep scrolling.

[Petyr Patter]

I've done a thread on all of the blue rose mentions in the series here and my conclusion is that the blue roses definitely represent Jon. Or, to put a finer point on it, they represent the truth of his identity.

I couldn't find any direct association between Bran and blue roses, with the possible exception of a tie in to the Bael story, which you allude to.

ETA: Allow me to address each of your points.

• So were Ned, and Benjen, etc.
• Sansa is also referred to as "sweetling," etc.
• Because he might become part of the weir-net, like Bloodraven?
• Maybe, but some see a darker path for Bran.
• Yes, but the answer to Jon Snow's identity might also be hidden down there. Though I do think the "hiding" could be Bran's part in the Bael story, which might serve as a sort of composite tale for the Starks.
• Same as above.
• That's quite a twist on the quote, as the rose is said to grow "from" the Wall.

To be perfectly honest, I sort of have an interest in seeing the two "good guys" join up at the end, i.e. a Stark and Targaryen marriage union (Though Danaerys frankly lost her good guy credentials when she immolated Mirri, but that is another thread). Jon is never going to leave the Wall, and is Dany's aunt besides, which is deeply problematic. Bran is still to young, but the age difference is not so great as to make the marriage unworkable. So, that is the basic motivation behind my interpretation.

Anyways, I skimmed through your thread, and it definitely points to the connection between Lyanna and blue roses. Great, but Jon is not Lyanna. That, and the connection was almost entirely from Ned's perspective, which is to say he associates blue roses with Lyanna, but would the Undying? Furthermore, the Bael the Bard fable expands the role of blue roses beyond Lyanna and show them to be a product of Winterfell, and much admired for their rarity besides.

Still, I've become very found of saying "if you think you have it figured out with certainty, you haven't thought about it long enough," or something pithier. Blue Roses were Lyanna's thing, but she's dead. She left a son, but frankly, Jon as the son of Lyanna isn't that big of a revelation. Everyone who looks at him sees the spitting image of a Stark. The difference between a bastard of Eddard and being a bastard of Lyanna is due entirely to Rhaegar. That's the big revelation, Rhaegar left another son, who could fulfil the prophecy of the prince that is promised, a Targaryen heir hidden in the Snow, or something. Jon is the obvious interpretation for the blue rose, but until he starts wearing one in his hair, we should consider other candidates.

I can think of one Winterfell maiden who has already had foreshadowing about being buried in ice with Needle clutched in her hands. Arya.

ETA and it's Arya who has been so closely compared to Lyanna

IMO The blue flower has got to be a Stark kid... no reason for it to necessarily mean Jon.

Indeed, Sansa and Arya are both tempting interpretations for the "blue rose" vision, what with the "female" thing they've got going on.

[J. Stargaryen]

To be perfectly honest, I sort of have an interest in seeing the two "good guys" join up at the end, i.e. a Stark and Targaryen marriage union (Though Danaerys frankly lost her good guy credentials when she immolated Mirri, but that is another thread). Jon is never going to leave the Wall, and is Dany's aunt besides, which is deeply problematic. Bran is still to young, but the age difference is not so great as to make the marriage unworkable. So, that is the basic motivation behind my interpretation.

Anyways, I skimmed through your thread, and it definitely points to the connection between Lyanna and blue roses. Great, but Jon is not Lyanna. That, and the connection was almost entirely from Ned's perspective, which is to say he associates blue roses with Lyanna, but would the Undying? Furthermore, the Bael the Bard fable expands the role of blue roses beyond Lyanna and show them to be a product of Winterfell, and much admired for their rarity besides.

Still, I've become very found of saying "if you think you have it figured out with certainty, you haven't thought about it long enough," or something pithier. Blue Roses were Lyanna's thing, but she's dead. She left a son, but frankly, Jon as the son of Lyanna isn't that big of a revelation. Everyone who looks at him sees the spitting image of a Stark. The difference between a bastard of Eddard and being a bastard of Lyanna is due entirely to Rhaegar. That's the big revelation, Rhaegar left another son, who could fulfil the prophecy of the prince that is promised, a Targaryen heir hidden in the Snow, or something. Jon is the obvious interpretation for the blue rose, but until he starts wearing one in his hair, we should consider other candidates.

That must have been quite the skim, because the entire thread is meant to show that the blue roses symbolize Jon. :)

[Wayate]

According to the wiki..

"The blue winter rose is a flower that grows in the glass gardens of Winterfell."

"Lyanna Stark loved the scent of blue winter roses. The crown of the queen of love and beauty which Prince Rhaegar Targaryen gave to Lyanna at the Tourney at Harrenhal was made of the roses. The statue of Lyanna in the crypt under Winterfell has a garland of blue winter roses. In Eddard Stark's fever dream about the Tower of Joy blue rose petals symbolize Lyanna."

I can't see how a blue rose on the Wall would represent something else than Lyanna's son.

[J. Stargaryen]

According to the wiki..

"The blue winter rose is a flower that grows in the glass gardens of Winterfell."

"Lyanna Stark loved the scent of blue winter roses. The crown of the queen of love and beauty which Prince Rhaegar Targaryen gave to Lyanna at the Tourney at Harrenhal was made of the roses. The statue of Lyanna in the crypt under Winterfell has a garland of blue winter roses. In Eddard Stark's fever dream about the Tower of Joy blue rose petals symbolize Lyanna."

I can't see how a blue rose on the Wall would represent something else than Lyanna's son.

Though I agree with your conclusion, this is a good example of why I wouldn't rely too heavily on the wiki. Lyanna's statue is only described as wearing a garland of blue roses in one of Ned's dreams. Nowhere else.

He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. “Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

- AGoT, Eddard XIII

[ghosts in winterfell]

Dany is surely destructive, she's destroying the slave industry in Slavers Bay, Bow, that's the kind of destruction I can get behind.

:lol: I like this. I enjoy Dany as a character and as much as I agree with you, I think she was trying to do the impossible here. Slavery was a staple of their economy for thousands of years and she essentially eliminated it overnight. I liked that we were able to see the consequences of this.

[MoIaF]

:lol: I like this. I enjoy Dany as a character and as much as I agree with you, I think she was trying to do the impossible here. Slavery was a staple of their economy for thousands of years and she essentially eliminated it overnight. I liked that we were able to see the consequences of this.

Doesn't mean she shouldn't try. As much flak as she gets for it (some deserved) being an abolitionist is a bloody job. I can't think of any society which abolished slavery without substantial bloodshed.

[ghosts in winterfell]

Doesn't mean she shouldn't try. As much flak as she gets for it (some deserved) being an abolitionist is a bloody job. I can't think of any society which abolished slavery without substantial bloodshed.

No I agree, its a very worthy cause. Hopefully Dany doesn't abandon it in Meereen.

[ghosts in winterfell]

I think if GRRM had wanted Dany to be entangled by the game of thrones, he would've integrated her sooner. The fact he makes her hang back makes me believe he wants her for the most major fight, against the Others. Sure, the Others could be benevolent and Dany antagonistic but I tend to think that heading towards the end the series will get more convectional.

However, inspired by the OP, I now think that the chink is not on the wall itself but the Nightswatch. As it is, Jon has already caused a fissure in the organisation which might even be permanent.

I'm glad you like it!

Dany may have already found herself tangled up in the Game. If this theory proves true, the Shavepate played her good and she could be heading for a downwards spiral.

The series could very well continue on that kind of conventional path, but like I said before GRRM had hoped to avoid that kind of predictability. I think it would be much more interesting if he built her up as the Hero only to have her fall -- and fall hard.

[Petyr Patter]

That must have been quite the skim, because the entire thread is meant to show that the blue roses symbolize Jon. :)

I've read arguments that Japan could have won World War Two, that speculating on oil futures can affect the price more than supply and demand, that tax breaks for millionaires created jobs, and other theories that despite being well research and well argued I don't accept as true. See also the GNC and the Grand Tyrell Conspiracy.

Mostly you point to how Lyanna really liked Blue Roses. Which is not the same as saying Lyanna's bastard son is the blue rose growing on the Wall. There is an argument to be made, but hardly conclusive. Sort of how the first two books showcased how Arya wanted to kill Joffrey, but this didn't foreshadow how Joffrey actually died.

[Ser Creighton]

I'm so sorry for forcing you to read this, how rude of -- oh, wait. By all means, keep scrolling.

You should be sorry for forcing me to read this. Doesn't mean the title is accurate, and it's not my fault the blue rose gets around. Though common rule of thumb is check for older threads relating to the subject you wish to start, they actually ask that people do that on the forum. It's not like anything is wrong with a theory,, it's just sometimes it already exists and can in fact still be used.

Like why to people hate dany threads. You really only need one that is open, don't need to start two a week.

Blue rose is not a bad subject and there is nothing wrong with having a theory about it, it's just thread or threads already exist. It's just a forum courtesy, not that I can ever claim to be guilty of forum courtesy as I am sure you can tell.