Reexamining the blue flower on the wall of ice - what does it really mean for Jon?

[ghosts in winterfell]

You should be sorry for forcing me to read this. Doesn't mean the title is accurate, and it's not my fault the blue rose gets around. Though common rule of thumb is check for older threads relating to the subject you wish to start, they actually ask that people do that on the forum. It's not like anything is wrong with a theory,, it's just sometimes it already exists and can in fact still be used.

Like why to people hate dany threads. You really only need one that is open, don't need to start two a week.

Blue rose is not a bad subject and there is nothing wrong with having a theory about it, it's just thread or threads already exist. It's just a forum courtesy, not that I can ever claim to be guilty of forum courtesy as I am sure you can tell.

My title is accurate? And I said in the OP that I have been lurking here for several months and didn't remember seeing this particular idea (fissure in the foundation) being tossed around. Sorry if I managed to miss it in the 48752895629 posts there are on this board. Like I said...

[Thucydides]

Dany is surely destructive, she's destroying the slave industry in Slavers Bay, Bow, that's the kind of destruction I can get behind.

Dany is so focuses on not looking back that she never seems to actually look forward.

[J. Stargaryen]

I've read arguments that Japan could have won World War Two, that speculating on oil futures can affect the price more than supply and demand, that tax breaks for millionaires created jobs, and other theories that despite being well research and well argued I don't accept as true. See also the GNC and the Grand Tyrell Conspiracy.

Mostly you point to how Lyanna really liked Blue Roses. Which is not the same as saying Lyanna's bastard son is the blue rose growing on the Wall. There is an argument to be made, but hardly conclusive. Sort of how the first two books showcased how Arya wanted to kill Joffrey, but this didn't foreshadow how Joffrey actually died.

Not true at all. If that's what you got out of your skimming, then you might want to read a little more carefully from now on. Not even specifically to do with my posts, just in general. Because, literally, I'm not sure if you could be more wrong.

I don't mind someone offering criticism of some analysis I've done, but it's kind of rude to grossly misrepresent my position on said work. I don't know if it's on purpose or not, but either way.

[Ser Creighton]

My title is accurate? And I said in the OP that I have been lurking here for several months and didn't remember seeing this particular idea (fissure in the foundation) being tossed around. Sorry if I managed to miss it in the 48752895629 posts there are on this board. Like I said...

Nothing to be sorry about, the first post was mostly a joke, I don't really care. It's a pretty common joke on threads that have been repeated enough, doesn't mean don't post them. Someone does another R+L=J thread and I along with a dozen others will probably say something along the same lines.

If you are looking for threads you can just use the search function to find topics. Blue Rose, blue flower, Danys blue rose. Not that you need to do it, I try to do it, but not always. You never know sometimes they let the repetitive threads go and sometimes they lock them. Mostly they don't care cause sometimes people just want to talk about that subject and this is as good a thread as another. Don't take posts like that first one two seriously, it's clearly a joke about repetitive threads. Stick around long enough and you will be doing it too.

Oh and don't be a lurker, better to join the party than watch it. Oh I have seen that you have started a couple of threads so good for you, get it out of your system, months of wanting to talk about the books but not doing it, seems to take it's toll on fans.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

I tend to think the flower is Jon. However, I like theories that get away from Jon being some sort of Messianic figure so much respect to the OP. I have a very caveat emptor feeling toward this particular part of the HOTU prophecy because of the glaring absence of Hizdahr zo Loraq. I can't for the life of me shoehorn him in to the dead man on the boat. We know GRRM hadn't figured out the Meereenese knot when he wrote ACOK. I think this prophecy may be one that we look back on and realize he didn't quite have it as mapped out as we (on this board anyway) would like. This might mean that his plans for Dany and other characters for TWOW and ADOS may have changed substantially since when he wrote ACOK. I love the prophecy stuff and think GRRM does try to make it ring true as much as possible, but he may have just overreached on this one.

[ghosts in winterfell]

I tend to think the flower is Jon. However, I like theories that get away from Jon being some sort of Messianic figure so much respect to the OP. I have a very caveat emptor feeling toward this particular part of the HOTU prophecy because of the glaring absence of Hizdahr zo Loraq. I can't for the life of me shoehorn him in to the dead man on the boat. We know GRRM hadn't figured out the Meereenese knot when he wrote ACOK. I think this prophecy may be one that we look back on and realize he didn't quite have it as mapped out as we (on this board anyway) would like. This might mean that his plans for Dany and other characters for TWOW and ADOS may have changed substantially since when he wrote ACOK. I love the prophecy stuff and think GRRM does try to make it ring true as much as possible, but he may have just overreached on this one.

Thankyou!

Which one do you think he overreached on?

[Not Dead Just Broken]

Thankyou!

Which one do you think he overreached on?

The whole "Bride of Fire" part. At least after Drogo. I think Dany's wedding plans were altered when she married Hizdahr. I don't believe that's foretold in the HOTU.

[ghosts in winterfell]

The whole "Bride of Fire" part. At least after Drogo. I think Dany's wedding plans were altered when she married Hizdahr. I don't believe that's foretold in the HOTU.

Ah I see. I thought it meant she was wed to her dragon pyre? Idk.

This is a pretty interesting post about it.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/66903-bride-of-fire-not-husbands/

[ghosts in winterfell]

Nothing to be sorry about, the first post was mostly a joke, I don't really care. It's a pretty common joke on threads that have been repeated enough, doesn't mean don't post them. Someone does another R+L=J thread and I along with a dozen others will probably say something along the same lines.

If you are looking for threads you can just use the search function to find topics. Blue Rose, blue flower, Danys blue rose. Not that you need to do it, I try to do it, but not always. You never know sometimes they let the repetitive threads go and sometimes they lock them. Mostly they don't care cause sometimes people just want to talk about that subject and this is as good a thread as another. Don't take posts like that first one two seriously, it's clearly a joke about repetitive threads. Stick around long enough and you will be doing it too.

Oh and don't be a lurker, better to join the party than watch it. Oh I have seen that you have started a couple of threads so good for you, get it out of your system, months of wanting to talk about the books but not doing it, seems to take it's toll on fans.

Yeah I get that you can really only go over the same details so many times before it starts to get nauseating. I'm definitely sick to death of the 3 separate posts about the Night Watch's neutrality. That's why I avoided posting for so long, but I was tired of keeping my ideas to myself.

[Lors]

Hey... I find this interesting, but i have to say.... There is one chapter, i dont remember if it is in AGOT or ACOK where Dany dreams of her riding a dragon amd fighting with "the others"? So i agree that she is going to be in Westeros for the final fight.... I also, never thought of Jon being Azor Ahai, but i always thought it was Dany, the way Melisandre told the prophecy, it was going to be reborned amidst salt and smoke, i believe, and it was going to be signaled by the red commet, at the end of AGOT that is how she is reborned after burning Drogo's body, and not only her, but her dragons as well... I also think that the stone dragons Melisandre intends to wake, are Dany's dragons eggs that were turned to stone....

Now, it is interesting for me that in the HOTU Dany saw the blue flower in the Wall of ice, AND her brother Rhaegar telling there had to be one more, because the dragon has three heads... So, that actually implies that there is already another head besides her, who, following tho R+L=J theory, makes Jon another head.... That leaves the spot for another one.... Which could very well be Aegon, if he turns out to truly be Aegon Targaryen... Or, another possibility (at least for me) is that Tyrion could be a Targaryen... i dont know, im new here and im sure that this has already been posted before, but in several prophecies regarding dragons, there are fake dragons, old dragons, young dragons, etc, and several kinds of dragons when at the moment, we only know for sure about one, Dany. Regarding the old dragons, i think it may refer to Bloodrave, since he is of Targaryen Blood.... I don't know, i realize this is a bit confusing, im just trying to tie many things together...

What do you think??

[Cas Stark]

I still think Jon is the Prince that was Promised and/or AA, but I like the idea of the horn Sam has being a red herring, I tend to think that something is in the crypts of Winterfell, we've had too many dreams of the crypts and visits to the crypts, they're kind of like Chekov's Crypts at this point that something has to come of them, at least I hope.

I've always found it strange any other interpretation that the blue rose was not Jon Snow, of course it is, because he's Lyanna's son, who loved blue roses, that's my reading, however, the idea of the rose and the wall and the house of usher thing may be too literal of an interpretation. I hadn't thought much about the sweetness angle, though, that is also interesting and worth pondering.

[Tree in the North]

I like the theory that the Horn of Joramun is the horn being blown in Winterfell. And if that is true, I think it's possible that the wall has already fallen (just not in a literal sense). Later in the book, following the blowing of the Horn, we have the Ides of Marsh, Jon's probable death, which I think is likely to bring an end to the Night's Watch (thus, the horn has caused the wall to fall because it led to the effective dissolution of the NW that guards it).

[The Fresh PtwP]

Sweetness isn't always good in fact it GRRM uses it frequently to describe death and decay. So I'm not sure about Jon being an ally...

[Lors]

What if Joramun's Horn is the one Victarion wants to blow to call the dragons.... Maybe it will cause the Wall to fall because of the dragons....

[RoamingRonin]

Sweetness isn't always good in fact it GRRM uses it frequently to describe death and decay. So I'm not sure about Jon being an ally...

The mud used to heal Drogo's wound was blue and the wound smelled sweet... I thought that was interesting. Without Drogo, she is no khalassi. With Jon, she is no queen. There's also the blue shade of the evening (which tasted sweet in the end).

[The Fresh PtwP]

@RoamingRonin, She is no legal queen. She can be queen the same way Robert and Renly were kings...by killing anyone who says different.

[ghosts in winterfell]

I still think Jon is the Prince that was Promised and/or AA, but I like the idea of the horn Sam has being a red herring, I tend to think that something is in the crypts of Winterfell, we've had too many dreams of the crypts and visits to the crypts, they're kind of like Chekov's Crypts at this point that something has to come of them, at least I hope.

I've always found it strange any other interpretation that the blue rose was not Jon Snow, of course it is, because he's Lyanna's son, who loved blue roses, that's my reading, however, the idea of the rose and the wall and the house of usher thing may be too literal of an interpretation. I hadn't thought much about the sweetness angle, though, that is also interesting and worth pondering.

LOL Chekov's Crypts indeed. I've always thought of the Horn of Winter as this type of device. There's a magical horn that has the potential to bring down the most important defense against the Big Baddies? Better burn that sucker. Wait, those guy never actually found it, so it might still be out there somewhere? It's a good bet that the Wall is coming down. But I do agree the it might not literally topple over, only figuratively.

[ghosts in winterfell]

I like the theory that the Horn of Joramun is the horn being blown in Winterfell. And if that is true, I think it's possible that the wall has already fallen (just not in a literal sense). Later in the book, following the blowing of the Horn, we have the Ides of Marsh, Jon's probable death, which I think is likely to bring an end to the Night's Watch (thus, the horn has caused the wall to fall because it led to the effective dissolution of the NW that guards it).

Yeah those events really seems to fall perfectly in to place after this mystery horn was blown.

[ghosts in winterfell]

What if Joramun's Horn is the one Victarion wants to blow to call the dragons.... Maybe it will cause the Wall to fall because of the dragons....

I suspect that horn is probably a dud, much like the "Horn of Winter" that Mance dug up in the Frost Fangs.

[ghosts in winterfell]

Hey... I find this interesting, but i have to say.... There is one chapter, i dont remember if it is in AGOT or ACOK where Dany dreams of her riding a dragon amd fighting with "the others"? So i agree that she is going to be in Westeros for the final fight.... I also, never thought of Jon being Azor Ahai, but i always thought it was Dany, the way Melisandre told the prophecy, it was going to be reborned amidst salt and smoke, i believe, and it was going to be signaled by the red commet, at the end of AGOT that is how she is reborned after burning Drogo's body, and not only her, but her dragons as well... I also think that the stone dragons Melisandre intends to wake, are Dany's dragons eggs that were turned to stone....

Now, it is interesting for me that in the HOTU Dany saw the blue flower in the Wall of ice, AND her brother Rhaegar telling there had to be one more, because the dragon has three heads... So, that actually implies that there is already another head besides her, who, following tho R+L=J theory, makes Jon another head.... That leaves the spot for another one.... Which could very well be Aegon, if he turns out to truly be Aegon Targaryen... Or, another possibility (at least for me) is that Tyrion could be a Targaryen... i dont know, im new here and im sure that this has already been posted before, but in several prophecies regarding dragons, there are fake dragons, old dragons, young dragons, etc, and several kinds of dragons when at the moment, we only know for sure about one, Dany. Regarding the old dragons, i think it may refer to Bloodrave, since he is of Targaryen Blood.... I don't know, i realize this is a bit confusing, im just trying to tie many things together...

What do you think??

Welcome!

I agree that Dany is a really good fit for the Azor Ahai prophecy. The thing is that while she's the obvious choice for the reasons you mentioned, she might be too obvious and I've seen a lot of people suggest that she (as Azor Ahai) is probably a red herring, as the most obvious choices often are.

And yes, if R+L=J is to be believed it could mean is Jon is one of the 3 Heads of the Dragon. While I believe the basics of R+L=J, I think the implications are a red herring and nothing will really come of it -- i.e. he's not going to sit on the Iron Throne, he's not going to ride a dragon. As for Aegon & Tyrion, I think there's really only room for 1 secret Targ in this series. I'm inclined to believe that Aegon is a Blackfyre Pretender (however unwittingly), and I'm not convinced that Tyrion is anyone but Tywin's son.

There are a lot of prophecies being thrown around and I think it's important to keep in mind that even though we have seen some of them come true, it doesn't mean that all of them will and we probably shouldn't put too much stock into them. I like to think that prophecies are things that might happen rather than things that will happen; the future is never set in stone. Take the dosh khaleen's prophecy about Dany & Drogo's child Rhaego, for example. He was supposed to be the Stallion Who Mounts the World, and yet he died in the womb.