Heresy 86

[Black Crow]

I think it would have been interesting to see what happened to V6's body after he died. I tend to think it transformed....I wonder if we will come accross his body at some point.

What we have discussed in the past is that this resurrection business is in part a matter of re-awakening the soul sleeping within the dead body. No soul, no resurrection and consequently no resurrection of Jon Snow if he has indeed slipped into Ghost.

On the other hand we did see what was apparently a soulless resurrection in Drogo and it might be argued this is the difference in resurrectees such as Beric and Coldhands; they have been resurrected with their souls in their bodies, while the wights are soulless.

How this particular trick is managed I don't know, but it offers an explanation.

[Mace Cooterian]

By transformed....do you mean has Varamyr's body become a wight? I would think that this is a high probability.

[Varamyra Stark]

Schmendrick.....If you flesh this theory out on another thread, please link here. This is the most interesting theory I've thus far been exposed to. I bow down in your presence!!

[Schmendrick]

This is really off the current topic - but since this thread is Heresy, I'd thought to post it anyway...

anyone interested in commenting on that? :

The pact, the children of the forest and Bloodraven – incarnation of Mithra, or similar deities/myths of indo-European origins...:

I love this stuff. Thanks for posting. I've puzzled some over how the figure/concept of Mitra might fit into these books, but I haven't taken it very far. My basic sense was that the justice/contract/friendship issues seemed to fit broadly with themes in Jon's narrative arc, and that others must also be connected with this (Asha Greyjoy, for instance, seems like an obvious candidate simply because of her name). I had not come across that particular resource though, and I look forward to digging further into it when I have a little time...

You've both touched on one of my favorite ASoIaF topics! There are definitely some interesting connections to be made. In fact, the ancient Persian practice of "taking the right hand" in order to seal a pact or contract (which I mentioned in my earlier post) originates with Mithra, the Persian counterpart to Mitra. I'll share more thoughts on this later.

I agree with very much. If I may pick on some little points in which I disagree it may even strengthen your theory.

First I don't think MMD awoke any powers with her ritual but rather tapped into an unprecedented event. The figure of the burning man I think is Othor, not Jon since it was Othor that was wreathed in flames. Additionally I think the great wolf is both Ghost and Jon, as Mel sees him as now a wolf, now a man.

The way I see it is this: for the first time in 8000yrs (more or less) a wight with it's associated animating force is South of the Wall. When Jon burned Othor that animating force was dispelled and dispersed. MMD shortly after does a ritual that is calling on animating forces in order to keep Drogo 'alive'. As evidenced by the figures on the tent it seems pretty clear which animating force was present in that tent -- the one that crossed the magical barrier of the Wall and into the greater world.

Now that force was not the only magic present in Mormont's chambers. Ghost and Jon's wargbond was there too. And who is the only person that sees the figures? Dany, another person with an animal bond. Remember skinchangers recognise each other on sight.

Again I am not convinced that MMD invoked or awoke this symbolic 'hand of Jon' that is acting as the force which touches other characters. I would say that in the act of not only using fire but being marked by it is very significant. Jon, who represents Ice, successfully uses Fire and creates in that moment a union of both elements. This union, due to the 'magic' of the skinchanger in Jon, was also put out there into the world. The combination of the animating force of the wight, the power of the wargbond and the union of Ice and Fire created a magical event that when MMD calls upon the power of life and death in her ritual it is this combined force that shows up. Possibly because the ritual was interrupted the 'hand of Jon' was likewise released to do it's work.

[....]

This for me is the most difficult to agree with not because you don't present a good argument but because I think Valyrian blades have a sort of intelligence all their own that can't be easily manipulated. There is evidence in the reforging of Ice that the sword remembers and won't be manipulated entirely by magic or spells. [Tyryan suggested it up thread and I agree with his assessment.] Also it's the weakest connection because Jon doesn't have Longclaw until after the events in Mormont's chamber.

I am not knocking your theory, just trying to add constructive info to it. I like it ;)

Hi Yield.

Thanks for your thoughts. I used the term "awoke" loosely (and perhaps carelessly). I agree with you that "tapped into" is a better way to put it. I also agree with you that the great wolf could be both Ghost and Jon (especially after Mel's vision in ADwD) but I'm convinced that the man "wreathed in flames" is also related to Jon. I didn't go into this in my earlier post, because I thought it would confuse the issue, but there's evidence that it depicts both Jon and Othor -- shadows within shadows (Just as the great wolf potentially depicts both Jon and Ghost). I'm working on putting together some more of my over-all theory, which includes textual support for all of this.

As far as the Longclaw thing, I agree that Valyrian steel appears to have a sort of "memory." At least as far as Ice is concerned. But it's been theorized that perhaps the forging (or complete reforging?) of Valyrian steel requires blood/death in addition to the extreme heat and the spells Tobho Mott knows about. If that's true, then there's the difference. Magic, death and fire were all present in the LC's tower when Jon burned the wight (and the tower). And afterwards, Longclaw was "found [] in the ashes ...."

And there seems to be some evidence that Longclaw accepts it's new incarnation (AGoT, Jon VIII):

The soft leather gave beneath Jon’s fingers, as if the sword were molding itself to his grip already.

Granted, this is the grip and not the steel, but I think it's still telling.

I didn't go into this before, but there's a really interesting duality at play, if Longclaw does relate to Jaime. Because Jaime later receives a sword that relates to Jon -- Oathkeeper. I think Longclaw represents what was most important to Jaime (and most important for him to sacrifice, so he can become the man he needs to be) -- his right hand (ASoS, Jaime IV):

They took my sword hand . Was that all I was, a sword hand? Gods be good, is it true?

When Jaime is given Oathkeeper (reforged from part of Ice) by Tywin, Jaime receives a sword that represents something vitally important to Jon -- honor. Could it be that Jon will have to sacrifice his honor (or how his honor is perceived by others) in order to become the man he needs to be? Interestingly, Qhorin Halfhand has something to say about that. When Jon balks at the idea of yielding to Wildlings because "they only spare oathbreakers," Qhorin responds (ACoK, Jon VIII):

“Our honor means no more than our lives, so long as the realm is safe."

And a book later, Jon thinks the following about Qhorin's statement (ASoS, Jon X):

“Our honor means no more than our lives, so long as the realm is safe,” Qhorin Halfhand had said in the Frostfangs. He [Jon] must remember that .

I think that the swords symbolize a sort of mystical/literary/symbolic exchange between Jon and Jaime. Both must sacrifice something they care about deeply in order to gain something important from the other. Jaime loses his hand and begins to grow more and more honorable from that point forward. Jon begins to make compromises to his cherished honor (joining the Wildlings, taking more and more of an active role in the political events South of the Wall) but in return, he gains a long claw -- the ability to reach beyond the Wall and "mark" or "grasp" important characters and thus alter events.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for the kind words on my earlier post! :) I'm going to start putting together more of the theory tonight. I'll post it as soon as I can.

[Grey Words]

I like this very much. It is so close to how I see the Cold to be; an entity in it's own right. Not sure our Cold can manifest as a person though. If it could then I think it lives somewhere in the Lands of Always Winter. Or as you hint, it is the Others -- Ice made Flesh.

The idea of the Great Other always made me think of Waziya. He did have a wife of the same stuff, though not so mean, and it's their daughter who births four wind-sons that are four wind directions. Maybe the Great (cold entity) Other is able to somehow spawn White Walkers and those can in turn, create wights. Or maybe there's an entire realm of ice beings in the LoAW? Are the blue eyes a spark of frigid life from the Great Other?

Except when insurgents are sent in like Jaffer and Othor and later Small Paul to collect Monster. This however don't detract from what you are saying about them being controlled, it rather strengthens the idea.

If, as alienarea says the disease is Greyscale (and I agree with him) then it could possibly be immune to being wighted. Those afflicted are already turning to stone and as the Children say when you die one of the things your spirit goes into is stone.

I don't think Coldhands is warged, but rather he was a warg/skinchanger to begin with that somehow kept control of his body. It's too bad Varamyr chose to live in One-Eye instead of fighting to keep his own body. We could have seen how Coldhands managed it, if that is indeed what he is (was?).

I agree that Val's concerns about Shireen are real and see her as a greyscale vector who will spread the disease. Also do like your idea of Coldhands as a former warg/skinchanger who'd managed to keep control of his body. So does he foreshadow what Jon will become?

[evita mgfs]

FEATHER CRYSTAL: THANK YOU! I AM DELIGHTED TO HEAR FROM YOU AGAIN. Besides, this thread needs an alliance of women [on occasion] to unite against the often "sexy" male counterpart in Heresy. [i am complimenting the testosterone driven male posters as "sexy"! I think we need to Skype - I want to hear the Irish lilt and the Scottish brogue - and sorry for being a trite American gal who finds the accents appealing - and "sexy" - but there it is!

If we shared our comments orally, I wonder how much that would effect our acceptance of ideas - or negation - of ideas.

I am very much enjoying the discussions I a catching up on.

I read that the mods have been consulted or alerted to a few things. I just learned when the mod Stubby helped me out with some of my board issues that NO ONE CAN EVEN SEE MY HARD-EARNED WARNING POINT! That is, only the Mods know I sinned against the old gods and new two years ago when I fiercely defended Arya by making a tasteless remark about Sansa locking lips with LF - I even used a devil face emoticon to emphasize that I was being "silly".

I thank those gentlemen involved for taking matters in hand. Not because I wish another to share my fate - but because sometimes we - me included - need to "check" ourselves - we may think something is funny when in reality, it is offensive to the sensibilities of others.

HERETICS: I am following along with your discussions. I may not have anything to add, but I am here in spirit.

I have mentioned this before about CH - and it gives me pause - if BR animates a wight - or a dead NW brother - what does this project for Bran's powers, which already are eclipsing his ancient teacher?

If Bran can control Hodor, it seems he might easily animate a "dead" corpse.

Bran's presence in the cave may be a force that is giving BR the will to "live" - so that he can train the greatest greenseer before disappearing forever into the trees.

[Forlorn Horpe]

(If the Heresies were topical threads... well, then I'd worry more about being "off topic." ;) )

I love this stuff. Thanks for posting. I've puzzled some over how the figure/concept of Mitra might fit into these books, but I haven't taken it very far. My basic sense was that the justice/contract/friendship issues seemed to fit broadly with themes in Jon's narrative arc, and that others must also be connected with this (Asha Greyjoy, for instance, seems like an obvious candidate simply because of her name). I had not come across that particular resource though, and I look forward to digging further into it when I have a little time...

My "instant" reaction to the excerpts you posted - What if we take the "personification and deification of the contract" quite literally? Perhaps the Greenseer is the Pact? A being comprised of human and weirwood/raven... a composite entity requiring participation of (and sacrifice by) both humans and COTF... and an arrangement that periodically must replace the mortal human participant. (Related is Black Crow's question regarding who might have preceded Bloodraven in the human greenseer role. My guess would be Prince Daemon Targaryen...)

Also wonder if the terms Mithraists and Mithraea might be applicable to the Kindly Man in the HoBW and Archmaester Walgrave on the Isle of Ravens...

Varuna and Mitra were twinned together often enough that in Sanskrit they are jointly referred to by the compound Mitra-Varuna. As one of the Adityas ("the seven"), Varuna is a solar deity, but when paired with Mitra, he becomes the nocturnal aspect of divinity, and Mitra the diurnal. Most Vedic mentions of Mitra pair him with Varuna.

GRRM has stated that the Lord of Light is vaguely based on Zoroastrianism. Historically, it was not a monolithic faith, and had its owns sects and heresies. Considering how unlike Melisandre is to the other red priests we have seen, perhaps she is a heretic or proponent of another sect? Historically, the two great branches of Zoroastrianism were Mazdaism (the only form practiced today) and Zurvanism. In Zurvanism, Ahura Mazda (analogous to the lord of light) and Ahriman (analogous to the great other) are twins. The great difference between Mazdaism and Zurvanism is that the latter articulated that Ahriman and Ahura Mazda were generated by Zurvan, the divine personification of infinite time.

[WWCED]

Agree. And the disease will be related to greyscale. That is why Shireen is at the wall.

I think GRRM is echoing the Spanish Flu Epidemic of 1918 The Wikipedia article references an idea that it influenced the outcome of WWI in favor of the allied forces and then swamped the rest of the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic

The history portion of the article is illuminating

[wolfmaid7]

You pose some very interesting questions and it's possible that resolution of the woes plaguing Westeros may be “resolved by severing the connection between the realms of men and the magical realms”. What troubles me is that the world evidently was balanced long ago when magic was in full flower so to speak. I think the expansion of humans into that world was inevitable, but was't handled properly by either side and the Children abused their power using the Hammer of the Water. I think their decline was a price they paid. And it's possible they've compounded the by being somehow tied to the Others and maybe that's why Leaf is seems dodgy.

The rise of the Starks and Targaryans with their partially “magical blood” kind of makes them each hinge families. The decline of the Targaryans death and exile has created a vacuum on the fire end of the spectrum and maybe that's why the nasties in the north are on the rise. But now with the Starks, as Kings in the North in decline and under attack, the whole R'hllor fire contingency is moving into the void.

I wonder if the price of the wolfblood, like the price for the dragon blood is that they are always under attack? Or perhaps, they have a debt of respect to the magical realm that they have forgotten to pay? Ned sure denied it. Maybe the Targs abused their magic by using the dragons for war, or simply using them for their own personal gain?

It does pose the question if the whole realm would be better of without either bloody family? (har har)

----------------------------------------------

For wolfmaid7 in particular and anyone else curious about parallels in Lakota mythology: I presented some stuff in another topic that could be relevant here to your Cold as an entity theory and am pasting some of it here:

As I mentioned before, my personal background is Lakota and in that tradition Waziya, the north wind is a being – he is associated with the wolf, crow and snowy owl because they can survive in his world.

Waziya brings the winter snow and ice, is vicious, cruel and essentially the patron of starvation and illnesses related to the cold. Waziya, is one bad dude in that he is incredibly strong fierce, cruel, greedy and pitiless. He is not necessarily windy either and can just be the cold. He loves turning the world to ice and killing things with his coldness. The more damage he can do to Maka Ina, Mother Earth, and the beings that exist on her, the more fulfilled he is. If he wants to, Wiziya can take a physical form as a huge and powerful man that not only looks terrifying, but can do tremendous damage. In his physical form he wears wolf skins (not reflective armor).

edit: inclusionary invite added.

I am looking forward to that info Grey Words,the "cold winds" rising is something i associate very much with the Wights and i think that the evidence points to "the cold" being more associated with the Wights.The WWs differ in this and i think that is GRRM's way in showing that the association is not what people normally think.

Who mentioned Jon's appearance? I think many can agree that GRRM appears to place more importance on who the mother is in this series than who the father is. Jon looks like his mother, Lyanna Stark, just as most of Ned and Catelyn's children look like Tullys.

Speaking of how ideas are developed from group contributions, someone mentioned how stags are, how was it described? As faery animals? Wouldn't it be a fun surprise if Jon turns out to be a Baratheon? The seed is strong and all that. Another nod to how children usually look like their mothers unless sired by a Baratheon.

Wolfmaid7, I wrote down some impressions I had over a year ago in a thread called "The True(born) story about how the Nights King was overthrown, and Winterfell stolen by a Bastard".

I don't know if I still feel strongly about everything I wrote, but I tried to wrap up a bunch of theories! lol

Evita, you blow my mind most times with your insightful and heavily researched ideas. I love to read your posts.

I was equally enamored by Schmendrick. I really miss the "like" button...

I would like to take that bastard study further,i'll look up that thread maybe we can synthesize some more info.

It doesn't seem very likely to me either. I think there is a single magic system used in different ways by different people, so there really are no camps.

Probably something to this. It can't be for nothing that we're told the current Ice is relatively new.

A variation: the hero was recorded in tales, but the specific fact that his sword was named Ice was forgotten. By all but the Starks.

I agree and i'm not sure where the "camp" idea came from.Magic is magic yeah but the fact that it can be harnessed into a discipline is also relevant .The moment we have people trying to perfect certain things we get classifications it can't be helped.There wouldn't be any such things as ;Blood magic,Moon magic,Dark magic etc if people didn't experiment.Blood magic is very heavy in this series and it is that way because someone sensitive to magic on a whole began to experiment.

So the parallels come because of the same thing someone is more proficient in manipulating the element of Fire,or ice etc. Is there a symmetry involved to a point yes because of these manipulations you will always see a tendency to try an balance the equation.

Much as it pains me to agree with ats in any way at this point in time,I'm not persuaded that there's a perfect symmetry between the Ice and Fire lots either.The Last Hero was fighting the Others and the Long Night.If the conclusion of Luwin's tale informs us that the LH was given a sword by the COTF for this purpose,then logic dictates it was made of obsidian.

That such a blade could be called Ice might be inferred from Mel's explanation of obsidian as"frozen fire" from the Valyrian tradition.Maybe the COTF saw it the same way.This pretty much is the scientific explanation of obsidian-lava rapidly cooled by water.

I don't know about that blade being called ice,this is just a guess but i'm more inclined to believe that the original Stark sword looked more like the WWs swords.

As to the aversion to the "symmetry" its not a one to one ratio idea in terms of balancing,its nature's way of making sure there isn't too much on either side. Can you imagine if Benero is right and there is a Summer that will never end.It would be just as bad as never ending winter.So there will always be a balancing act going on in an attempt to not have one element long term supersede the other.

I have often wondered how the Nights King "bound" his brothers to his will. I do think the idea of wightifying the Black Brothers doesn't seem reasonable if he killed them all and then they were transforme......unless he initiated a disease that took most of them out and aided him in the transformation.

I did (and still kind of) believe that the Nights King did use some form of Warging to "bind" his brothers to his will. The only time we have seen humans in mass bound to somethings will (or so it seems) are the wights. They are clearly not moving independent of one another as they are massing together and attacking the same groups.

GRRM said that a disease will play a big part in the upcoming books. Regardless of what the disease is, I am led to believe that it is going to take a lot of Westeros out and those who die will rise again harder and wighter....

If Jon does become the NK, does that mean he would control all of the wights? If he is able to control the NW who wouuld be wighted, he should very well be able to control all others as well.

This would tie my theory together that the Wights are nothing more than re-animated bodies being warged by something.....the Cold, the Wight Walkers, or possibly even a human warg. We have not seen a warg try to take control of a wight yet, but maybe its possible. If you are able to take control of one, perhaps you can take control of the horde since they seem to be connected to each other somehow.

Have we seen a wight who is warged? Maybe, perhaps it is CH (which than of course pokes many holes in my theory)....

I don't think that the NK skinchanged the entire NW to put all that power into one individual will not work . It didn't work with V6 well at all and i would think trying to subdue the minds of hundreds of healthy men would be really difficult. I don't know the capacity for skinchanging a host but it doesn't seem Martinesque to have one man be that powerful.

I've made this statement a few times,that "the cold" acts like the ultimate skinchanger and even that i believe is a collective be it a Bacteria or the Spirits of GS's that didn't quite make it and died and their spirits gathered to form "the cold" entity ( that's a guess).

I don't think Jon would be able to control them,because that would mean controlling "the cold" i do believe that Jon's familiarity with it having been molested by it made his senses aware of it case in point on the Fist when he smelled it and when he got stabbed.There is a bit of foreshadowing that Jon would be leading or working with the WWs to combat "the cold"/Wights.

The idea of the Great Other always made me think of Waziya. He did have a wife of the same stuff, though not so mean, and it's their daughter who births four wind-sons that are four wind directions. Maybe the Great (cold entity) Other is able to somehow spawn White Walkers and those can in turn, create wights. Or maybe there's an entire realm of ice beings in the LoAW? Are the blue eyes a spark of frigid life from the Great Other?

I agree that Val's concerns about Shireen are real and see her as a greyscale vector who will spread the disease. Also do like your idea of Coldhands as a former warg/skinchanger who'd managed to keep control of his body. So does he foreshadow what Jon will become?

I think its very very likely that "the cold" spawns the Wights,popsicles have a different job in this but they are just overwhelmed they can't handle the amount of Wights now as they couldn't then hence the Wall.Dido on CH being a former Skinchanger.

[Black Crow]

I am looking forward to that info Grey Words,the "cold winds" rising is something i associate very much with the Wights and i think that the evidence points to "the cold" being more associated with the Wights.The WWs differ in this and i think that is GRRM's way in showing that the association is not what people normally think.

Conversely the episode in the show(first series) in which Sam says that the wights are raised by the white walkers is one which was actually written by GRRM himself.

[Joken79]

...

I think its very very likely that "the cold" spawns the Wights,popsicles have a different job in this but they are just overwhelmed they can't handle the amount of Wights now as they couldn't then hence the Wall.Dido on CH being a former Skinchanger

If the soul (life force) of dying people goes back to the earth/tree/stone it might be that the extreme cold brought by the Others prevents this from happen (ice preserves). What if this "free" life source (or parts of it) is taken and used to animate the wights. This could be done by the cold itself or the one that controls the cold (--> King of Winter?).

Also Mel uses parts of Stannis' "life force" to create the shadows.

Perhaps the Ironborn remember that (special?) water had once the same effect.

If somebody is drown he returned as a form of wight (--> dead things in the water). Perhaps this is the origin of their reanimation ritual.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Varuna and Mitra were twinned together often enough that in Sanskrit they are jointly referred to by the compound Mitra-Varuna. As one of the Adityas ("the seven"), Varuna is a solar deity, but when paired with Mitra, he becomes the nocturnal aspect of divinity, and Mitra the diurnal. Most Vedic mentions of Mitra pair him with Varuna.

GRRM has stated that the Lord of Light is vaguely based on Zoroastrianism. Historically, it was not a monolithic faith, and had its owns sects and heresies. Considering how unlike Melisandre is to the other red priests we have seen, perhaps she is a heretic or proponent of another sect? Historically, the two great branches of Zoroastrianism were Mazdaism (the only form practiced today) and Zurvanism. In Zurvanism, Ahura Mazda (analogous to the lord of light) and Ahriman (analogous to the great other) are twins. The great difference between Mazdaism and Zurvanism is that the latter articulated that Ahriman and Ahura Mazda were generated by Zurvan, the divine personification of infinite time.

Yes - we've had the Varuna conversation before, and that is also where I started taking a look at Mitra. Obviously the two deities/concepts are paired, and there are multiple cultural/mythical perspectives available on each. Glad you're keeping up with the Persian/Vedic stuff, FH.

Just to recall some of the Varuna material...

...during our exchange of posts on Varuna, it seemed that one sense of the image of Bloodraven sitting in his weirwood throne was that he presented a reflection of Varuna, who is sometimes portrayed as seated in the branches of an inverted tree... thus upside-down, symbolizing (I think) his rule of the underworld/otherworld. ( I seem to recall you posted some verses of Hindu text sketching that out?) That connection also seemed to throw new light on the Patchface prophecies regarding events to take place "under the sea," since Varuna is god of both death and the waters in some Hindu traditions, and since Patchface (who looks like a lesser, demonic version of Veruna) would also associate death with his personal experience of being "under the sea."

Interestingly, if you read Dante's Inferno... you find that Satan too appears inverted, once Dante and his guide descend past the devil and emerge on the far side of hell. While in hell, Dante sees Satan oriented right-side up... but Dante's orientation seems to flip upon crossing Satan's midpoint, and once in purgatory the pilgrims stand next to Satan's legs, which extend into the air. If this is the kind of relationship (mystical or metaphysical, if not physical) between the lands of the living and the lands of the dead in ASOIAF, then it does provide a context in which Patchface's rhyming could make sense. If this "inverted orientation" of the realms does show up, I think I'd look for it to relate in some form or fashion to a passage through the Black Gate. Or perhaps, a further descent into the earth... either at the Nightfort well, the cave of skulls, or the Winterfell crypts?

Varuna is also (sometimes) mentioned together with Yama in Hindu texts. Yama, who is another Vedic god of the dead, is associated with his two four-eyed hellhounds, which guard the gates of the afterlife, and also serve as his agents and messengers in the world... as discussed a bit at the end of the Heresy 85 thread. Not sure if Mitra connects with Yama...

[wolfmaid7]

Conversely the episode in the show(first series) in which Sam says that the wights are raised by the white walkers is one which was actually written by GRRM himself.

Which I think is a great plot device, in the book no one says anyrhing but they probably thought WWs which doesn't go against the common thinking on the Wall or in Westeros.

Also for those who didn't read the book Sam's statement was a great way of letting viewers know who the "perceived" enemy is , what people are uneasy about.It answers in my mind nothing beyond what we expect tbe thinking to be.

[Black Crow]

What about the Last Hero? He strikes me as the "ice-kind"...

All we actually know about him from Old Nan's story is that he was the last survivor of 13 heroes who set off into the dead lands to seek the Children. In the end he was being pursued by the Wild Hunt but the Children helped him.

How we don't know and nor do we know who he was, other than that he wasn't Bran the Builder. Sam finds a mention of him using a blade of "dragonsteel" against the Others, which sounds as though he fought the good fight against them and therefore can't be accounted a champion of Ice.

On the other hand Mance became King-beyond-the-Wall by fighting and killing three other candidates and forcing the other two - Tormund and Styr to yield, and even then he had to fight Styr at least before he yielded. Therefore its possible that the Last Hero didn't wage war on the Others but fought and won against their champion(s) to establish himself as King of Winter. After all when young Ser Waymar went down it was in a one to one combat.

I'm still of the mind though that the Children did help the Last Hero but that help came with a price - the blood link we know as the Wolf Blood. Remember that in warging part of the wolf is in the warg and part of the warg in the wolf. The same may also apply to other skinchangers and its this bloodlink, this exchange of souls which links men to Faerie and so allows the Children to cling on, despite efforts to destroy the weirwoods and perhaps magic itself.

[GoldenVale]

I have often wondered how the Nights King "bound" his brothers to his will. I do think the idea of wightifying the Black Brothers doesn't seem reasonable if he killed them all and then they were transforme......unless he initiated a disease that took most of them out and aided him in the transformation.

I did (and still kind of) believe that the Nights King did use some form of Warging to "bind" his brothers to his will. The only time we have seen humans in mass bound to somethings will (or so it seems) are the wights. They are clearly not moving independent of one another as they are massing together and attacking the same groups.

GRRM said that a disease will play a big part in the upcoming books. Regardless of what the disease is, I am led to believe that it is going to take a lot of Westeros out and those who die will rise again harder and wighter....

If Jon does become the NK, does that mean he would control all of the wights? If he is able to control the NW who wouuld be wighted, he should very well be able to control all others as well.

This would tie my theory together that the Wights are nothing more than re-animated bodies being warged by something.....the Cold, the Wight Walkers, or possibly even a human warg. We have not seen a warg try to take control of a wight yet, but maybe its possible. If you are able to take control of one, perhaps you can take control of the horde since they seem to be connected to each other somehow.

Have we seen a wight who is warged? Maybe, perhaps it is CH (which than of course pokes many holes in my theory)....

I'm wondering if assuming the NK was the one who "bound" the NW to his cause is a mistake. I think it more likely that the responsible party wasn't the pale, dead, blue eyed girl he took as his Queen. I also find it suspicious that the legend does't really say all that much about her. He found her and took her to bed and that's it? Then he just went crazy because reasons? I think the one doing the binding was this Ice Queen and that the NK was just another victim.

All we actually know about him from Old Nan's story is that he was the last survivor of 13 heroes who set off into the dead lands to seek the Children. In the end he was being pursued by the Wild Hunt but the Children helped him.

How we don't know and nor do we know who he was, other than that he wasn't Bran the Builder. Sam finds a mention of him using a blade of "dragonsteel" against the Others, which sounds as though he fought the good fight against them and therefore can't be accounted a champion of Ice.

On the other hand Mance became King-beyond-the-Wall by fighting and killing three other candidates and forcing the other two - Tormund and Styr to yield, and even then he had to fight Styr at least before he yielded. Therefore its possible that the Last Hero didn't wage war on the Others but fought and won against their champion(s) to establish himself as King of Winter. After all when young Ser Waymar went down it was in a one to one combat.

I'm still of the mind though that the Children did help the Last Hero but that help came with a price - the blood link we know as the Wolf Blood. Remember that in warging part of the wolf is in the warg and part of the warg in the wolf. The same may also apply to other skinchangers and its this bloodlink, this exchange of souls which links men to Faerie and so allows the Children to cling on, despite efforts to destroy the weirwoods and perhaps magic itself.

I'd add to that. by saying that the sword "Ice" is named after "a

legacy from the age of heroes" (paraphrasing). It might well be a connection to the Last Hero. It would make some sense that if he was the last great band of heroes, and one that somehow convinced the Children to help him then there'd be more of him to tell about. Maybe he made another agreement with the Children? An agreement that means becoming a Warden of the North perhaps?

[#Fire and Blood]

Wolfmaid;

In response to your response to my response....lol silly english...

What do you propose happened with the NK binding the NW to his will if not either of my suggestions? Are you suggesting the cold was resonsible?

[Black Crow]

I'd add to that. by saying that the sword "Ice" is named after "a legacy from the age of heroes" (paraphrasing). It might well be a connection to the Last Hero. It would make some sense that if he was the last great band of heroes, and one that somehow convinced the Children to help him then there'd be more of him to tell about. Maybe he made another agreement with the Children? An agreement that means becoming a Warden of the North perhaps?

That's basically what I'm suggesting. What's conspicuously lacking in all of this is how it all got turned around. Its assumed that the Others were defeated in the Battle for the Dawn and then the Wall was built to make sure they never came back, but we're never actually told this - or anything else for that matter, and that's why there is a Heresy that the Battle for the Dawn actually relates to the defeat of the Nights King and his eldrich allies.

[Lord Ravenstark]

That's basically what I'm suggesting. What's conspicuously lacking in all of this is how it all got turned around. Its assumed that the Others were defeated in the Battle for the Dawn and then the Wall was built to make sure they never came back, but we're never actually told this - or anything else for that matter, and that's why there is a Heresy that the Battle for the Dawn actually relates to the defeat of the Nights King and his eldrich allies.

However, the Night's King was a LC. And it would be a little odd, cause we know the king-beyond-the-wall and the Starks killed him. For better or worse, I don't think the Starks would never destroy any reference to a powerful enemy they destroyed... they brought an end to an "ice age" and almost wiped out the Others. The North would remember such thing.

[Toccs]

That's basically what I'm suggesting. What's conspicuously lacking in all of this is how it all got turned around. Its assumed that the Others were defeated in the Battle for the Dawn and then the Wall was built to make sure they never came back, but we're never actually told this - or anything else for that matter, and that's why there is a Heresy that the Battle for the Dawn actually relates to the defeat of the Nights King and his eldrich allies.

Also at some point we are told of tales of the Nights Watch riding out to fight in the Battle for the Dawn. If the Battle for the Dawn predates the building of the Wall, then surely it must also predate the Nights Watch, meaning that this battle they were involved in must have happened later.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I'm getting picky, here - but:

...Remember that in warging part of the wolf is in the warg and part of the warg in the wolf...

It's actually an even closer bond than you've phrased it. Specifically... you can drop the prepositions. As Jojen says to Bran, he confronts him about the wolf-bond... "Part of you is Summer, and part of Summer is you. You know that, Bran." (ACOK, Chapter 28) And later, Catelyn says same thing to Robb after he marries Jeyne and starts sending Greywind away: "He is part of you, Robb. To fear him is to fear you." (ASOS, Chapter 14)

Notably, these statements are each delivered in scenes in which the Stark child explicitly denies that he is a wolf. But the wolf is not "in" Bran... the wolf is Bran. And likewise, Robb. Bran hears and accepts this wisdom. Robb does not, though he once knew better - and ironically, he no longer believes in the guardianship of the direwolves because he thinks Bran and Rickon were murdered.

I'd add to that. by saying that the sword "Ice" is named after "a legacy from the age of heroes" (paraphrasing).

"The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North." (AGOT, Chapter 2)

The name itself is the legacy. Which really only tells us that the word "Ice" plays an important role in whatever Stark heritage is derived from the Age of Heroes. One would assume that "Ice" is understood to have described a legendary weapon, or an advantage of strength of some kind... though perhaps it did not originally identify a sword, per se.

Also interesting... the quote (from Catelyn's POV, it must be said) says "Kings in the North," and does not use the phrase "Kings of Winter."