Heresy 86

[JNR]

Just playing Devil's Advocate, but it might have been that the kid was born with a full head of black hair and Stark-grey eyes, things which would indicate that he would grow into looking Stark-ish, and I would say that the one area of the realm where Rhaegar's face (or any Targaryen face for that matter) would have been almost completely unknown would be the North (the Wall withstanding)

The issue of Jon's appearance is a longstanding thorn in the side of R+L=J, of course. Their standard answer is "Well, Jon was just born looking 100% like his mother and 0% like his father."

Well, it's possible. But we should be talking about what is likely, not merely what is possible.

And the above does not seem likely. There is no clear instance of a half-Targ boy with no Targ traits anywhere in the history of Westeros (except Bloodraven, an albino). The closest we can come would be someone like Baelor Breakspear, whose eye color is never specified.

Also, besides the missing Targ hair and eyes and the shape of his face, Jon doesn't seem to be remotely close to Rhaegar in height. It's just a complete physical mismatch... and while yes, they exist in the world, they are not common.

second, especially considering that it would have needed to travel from Dorne, across numerous castles and battlefields full of enemies and friends unknown, I highly doubt that Lyanna would have risked sending a raven that distance during that time

It's hard to see why she would see it as a risk. If the raven network failed or died, she'd be no worse off.

Also, I'm not sure what enemies Lyanna had, or how they could have traced her location from the raven.

Finally, the idea of a mid-teens girl deliberately going all those months in a remote tower with no friends, no way to communicate with family, no one to talk to except Rhaegar and two Kingsguard, nothing much to do, no entertainment, etc... makes me wonder if the R+L=J camp has ever met a girl in her mid-teens. It just doesn't seem plausible she would have been satisfied with that.

[alienarea]

The issue of Jon's appearance is a longstanding thorn in the side of R+L=J, of course. Their standard answer is "Well, Jon was just born looking 100% like his mother and 0% like his father."

Well, it's possible. But we should be talking about what is likely, not merely what is possible.

And the above does not seem likely. There is no clear instance of a half-Targ boy with no Targ traits anywhere in the history of Westeros (except Bloodraven, an albino). The closest we can come would be someone like Baelor Breakspear, whose eye color is never specified.

Also, besides the missing Targ hair and eyes and the shape of his face, Jon doesn't seem to be remotely close to Rhaegar in height. It's just a complete physical mismatch... and while yes, they exist in the world, they are not common.

It's hard to see why she would see it as a risk. If the raven network failed or died, she'd be no worse off.

Also, I'm not sure what enemies Lyanna had, or how they could have traced her location from the raven.

Finally, the idea of a mid-teens girl deliberately going all those months in a remote tower with no friends, no way to communicate with family, no one to talk to except Rhaegar and two Kingsguard, nothing much to do, no entertainment, etc... makes me wonder if the R+L=J camp has ever met a girl in her mid-teens. It just doesn't seem plausible she would have been satisfied with that.

Also, Jon hasn't developed a fondness of neither horse riding, playing the harp or poetry. At least one parental trait should come through, shouldn't it? [wait, I forgot the stupid decisions trait].

About Lyanna all those months: maybe the four rats in HotU raping a woman refer to three KG plus Rhaegar?

[Urrax2]

...Evita he is surprisingly very accessible. I attended Capclave in Maryland a few months ago and he wondered around the con the entire weekend. Very down to earth guy :)

Confound it, Martin, stop wandering around cons for entire weekends being accessible, and WRITE THE BLASTED BOOKS.

[Yield.]

The issue of Jon's appearance is a longstanding thorn in the side of R+L=J, of course. Their standard answer is "Well, Jon was just born looking 100% like his mother and 0% like his father."

Well, it's possible. But we should be talking about what is likely, not merely what is possible.

And the above does not seem likely. There is no clear instance of a half-Targ boy with no Targ traits anywhere in the history of Westeros (except Bloodraven, an albino). The closest we can come would be someone like Baelor Breakspear, whose eye color is never specified.

Also, besides the missing Targ hair and eyes and the shape of his face, Jon doesn't seem to be remotely close to Rhaegar in height. It's just a complete physical mismatch... and while yes, they exist in the world, they are not common.

I agree completely and would add that what a baby looks like when born is no indication of what he will look like a few months after birth. All babies that don't have a strong brown eye colour are born with dark slate grey eyes. Some blonde people are born with dark brown hair that falls off a month or two after birth and the blonde comes in. I know this for a fact because my son was born exactly as Tyryan describes and is now, in adolescence, a blonde with greenish blue eyes.

[Yield.]

Also, Jon hasn't developed a fondness of neither horse riding, playing the harp or poetry. At least one parental trait should come through, shouldn't it? [wait, I forgot the stupid decisions trait].

About Lyanna all those months: maybe the four rats in HotU raping a woman refer to three KG plus Rhaegar?

That's a disturbing thought that I would not put past Martin to have really happened to her.

ETA: The stupid decisions trait could easily have come from Ned. He made plenty.

[#Fire and Blood]

Off topic, but needed to post.

Jojen Reed is said to have prophetic dreams that come true.

"I dreamed of the man who came today, the one they call Reek. You and your brother lay dead at his feet, and he was skinning off your faces with a long red blade." - *Turns out this was fulfilled through the millers boys, but pretty close.

"It is the sea that comes."
"The sea?"
"I dreamed that the sea was lapping all around Winterfell. I saw the black waves crashing against the gates and towers, and then the salt water came flowing over the walls and filled the castle. Drowned men were floating in the yard. When I first dreamed the dream, back at Greywater, I didn't know their faces, but now I do. That Alebelly is one, the guard who called our names at the feast. Your septon's another. Your smith as well."

*This one is pretty much dead on, the Ironborn coming into WF and destroying it.

I think we all assume that Jojen is on the side of the Starks. He is convinced by what he has seen in his green dreams, that the answer to save man from the approaching dissaster (Others and Wights attack), Bran must go North to the 3EC.

"I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains," he said. "It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them."
"Did the crow have three eyes?"
Jojen nodded.

*Has this prophecy been fulfilled or not?

Jojen says that he believes it is the 3EC that is trying to help Bran open his third eye. I have trouble thinking that this is an accurate reading by Jojen. I have searched and I can not seem to come up with anything in WF to represent the grey stone chains holding Bran down. However, in the cave where the childen and BR are, the are surrounded by grey stone. They are also trapped (or "chained") in the cave since there is not a close exit that isn't littered with Wights waiting to attack. Not to mention the question of the weirwood paste perhaps starting the process of Bran becoming one with the tree. Nothing seems more chained down that when we see BR, and he waited so long for Bran so he could teach him his ways.

Jojen becomes very depressed the longer they are in the cave. He seems to be accepting his fate (whatever that may be). He wants to return to Greywater watch as if his work has been completed.

Here are my questions:

Did Jojen mis-interpret the "chained" dream like he misinterpreted Bran and Rickon for the Millers boys?

If Jojen is on the side of th Starks and the Children are indeed not out to help men, why did Jojen take him to the cave?

Why is Jojen so depressed? Is it truly because he is aware of his impending death, or is it because he knows he led Bran to a bad situation?

I think there are some big answers here to some of the core principles of Heresy and I hope we can flesh this out a little bit more.

[Forlorn Horpe]

Is Jojen really "interpreting" the dreams? It seems he's being descriptive but not exactly prognosticating beyond that.

[LynnS]

About Lyanna all those months: maybe the four rats in HotU raping a woman refer to three KG plus Rhaegar?

Oh disturbing thought. I've wondered about the four rats. Just didn't seem to fit for Catelyn of Dany. For some reason, I can't see the honorable Ser Arthur Dayne molesting any lady even in revenge. But keeping her captive against her will could certainly be seen as a form of molestation.

ACOK Chapter 48 Dany

In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing.

Earlier in the same passage:

The mold-eaten carpet under her feed had once been gorgeously colored, and whorls of gold could still be seen in the fabric, glinting broken amidst the faded grey and mottled green.

Dany could hear sounds in the walls, a faint scurrying and scrabbling that made her think of rats.

This actually reminds me of Cersei and her pre-occupation with rats in the walls. Her dream of the volanquar:

AFfC Chapter 39 Cersei

Cersei dreamt that she was down in the black cells once again, only this time it was her chained to the wall in place of the sing. She was naked, and blood dripped from the tips of her breasts where the Imp had torn her nipples with his teeth. "Please," she begged, "please, not my children, do not harm my children." Tyrion only leered at her. He was naked too, covered with coarse hair that made him look more like a monkey than a man. "You shall see them crowned," he said, "and you shall see them die." Then he took her bleeding breast into his mouth and began to suck, and pain sawed through her like a hot knife.

I think we know who controls the rats in the wall but who else could be involved with the molestation of Cersei. The whorls of gold Dany describes in the moldy carpet are reprised in Qyburn's strange garment.

AFfC Chapter 17 Cersei:

"I have informers sniffing after the Imp everywhere, Your Grace," said Qyburn. He had garbed himself in something very like maester's robes, but white instead of grey, immaculate as the cloaks of the Kiingsguard. Whorls of gold decorated his hem, sleeves, and stiff high collar and a golden sash was tied about his waist.

I'm reminded of the "splendor of wizards" in the HotU.

Blood of my Blood … this is an evil place, a haunt of ghosts and maegi. See how it drinks the morning sun? Let us go before it drinks us as well. - Jhogo to Dany

Later in the same passage between Qyburn and Cersei regarding Gregor's head; another reference to ebony wood:

..."Have you attended to the little task I set you?"

"I have, Your Grace. I am sorry that it took so long. Such a large head. It took the beetles many hours to clean the flesh. By way of pardon, I have lined a box of ebony and silver with felt, to make a fitting presentation for the skull."

Cersei suggests that a sack would have been more fitting. So why such a splendid and honorable display?

I wonder if Qyburn is one of the maegi attached to the HotU and if the vision of the beautiful woman ravaged by four rats really refers to Cersei.

An aside on the discussion of Symeon Star-Eyes. It's not canon, but recall that Jon Arryn was depicted with stones covering his eyes when lying in state in the HBO series.

http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120520000751/gameofthrones/images/7/7a/Jon_Arryn_funeral_bier.jpg

[Black Crow]

I’d like to expand a little on the possible outcome that this business may be resolved by severing the connection between the realms of men and the magical realms, and do so chiefly by reference to three themes; first Leaf’s speech on the looming extinction of the Old Races, secondly the importance of blood and third, the emphasis on everything having a price.

There seems to be a fair consensus in these pages that Leaf isn’t to be trusted or at least isn’t telling the whole story. I see no reason to doubt that the Old Races are indeed in decline, but am less convinced by her professed acceptance of that fate. I think that they are fighting against it, but not necessarily by conventional means.

Why the emphasis on a human greenseer? Bran has been brought to the cave as a replacement for the failing Bloodraven, but who did Bloodraven replace? Did he replace one of the Children or was there a human greenseer before him? I really see no reason not to suppose that there was a human greenseer before him, but that of course raises the question of why? I’ve proposed before that the purpose of Bloodraven now and Bran in the future is to provide the Children with a window into the realms of men, but I wonder if its also something deeper.

We’re constantly told of the power of blood both in general terms and more specifically of the wolf blood and the blood of the Dragon linking the Starks to Ice and the Targaryens to Fire. To keep things simple I’m sticking with the Starks here but think what I’m suggesting is applicable to both parties.

The Starks apparently have an affinity to Ice/Winter and are either latent or active wargs, paired with their direwolves. We’re not told how or why they have the wolfblood but it gives them power and may be why they have been Kings in the North for so very long.

But what of the price? What is the price of the wolfblood and the power that goes with it?

Does it provide the Old Races and their magic with a link or a toehold in the realms of men; a link that if broken will not restore the magical balance between Ice and Fire but banish magic entirely from the realms of men?

[alienarea]

Just a little crackpot for tonight:

Drogon is Azor Ahai reborn!

- comes from the Aerys+Rhaella line, kind of

- born amidst smoke and salt (some cried salty tears at the funeral pyre for Drogo)

- the red star bled

- wirlds a flaming red sword, kind off

- the prophecy doesn't say that Azor Ahai is human

:dunno:

[Schmendrick]

I wasn't really sure where to post this, but I was rereading some of Jon's chapters in AGOT last night (thanks to the "charred bones and cooked meat" discussion earlier in the thread) and something that happened during his fight with the wight caught my attention.

First, Othor (the wight) gets his arm cut off, then Jon slashes him across face, and the description is awfully similar to the injuries that Tyrion suffers during the Battle of the Blackwater. I apologize for not having my books with me as I write this, but we are told that Othor loses half his nose and has his face cut near in half.

I have zero idea want import this could have, but it struck me as odd that Othor's injury paralleled Tyrion's almost a full book before it happened. Additionally, there could be a parallel between Othor losing his arm and Jaime losing his sword hand (or perhaps the parallel is Othor's "brother" Jafer, whose severed hand was found by Ghost).

Has this been discussed before? Does anyone have any thoughts?

Thanks to The Snowfyre Chorus for pointing me in the direction of this post. I hope what I'm about to write isn't off-topic -- I'm still somewhat unfamiliar with the Heresy threads. This involves a wight and strange magical happenings at the Wall, so hopefully I'm good to post it here.

I don't think the connection between Othor's wounds and Tyrion's is a coincidence. I've been developing a theory related to this for some time, but I haven't ironed out all of the rough edges yet (so apologies in advance if some of this is a little rough). The gist of the theory is that Jon's fight with Othor (AGoT, Jon VII) and MMD's song and dance of death in the sandsilk tent (AGoT, Dany VIII) are connected through the blood magic MMD invokes (I think the shadows of the great wolf and the man wreathed in flames that Dany glimpses are Ghost and Jon, which strengthens the connections between the two chapters, if I'm right).

Othor essentially becomes a wicker man stand-in (for lack of a better term) for various characters that the powers awoken by MMD's song proceed to "mark" or "claim." Jon and Ghost inflict wounds on Othor that mirror the wounds inflicted on these "marked" characters. When Jon plunges his hand into the burning curtain, it symbolically acts as the hand of whatever force is being invoked by MMD, reaching through the "curtain between worlds" and "grasping" the chosen characters. What's interesting is that we usually see imagery of a "hand" descending on or grasping the "marked" characters right before things get interesting in their story arcs. Obviously, much of what follows only works if we accept that whatever is going on here can transcend time and location.

Since you mentioned Tyrion, here's his recollection as he lies in bed recovering from his wounds after the Blackwater (ACoK, Tyrion XV):

He remembered now. The bridge of boats, Ser Mandon Moore, a hand, a sword coming at his face.

I think the wording here is a clue. Not "Ser Mandon Moor's hand" (even though that's literally what it was) but "a hand." And then, of course, "a sword coming at his face" (not "Ser Mandon's sword").

And here's a snippet from immediately after Tyrion is "marked" on the Blackwater (ACoK, Tyrion XIV):

Balls of green and orange flame crackled overhead, leaving streaks between the stars. He had a moment to think how pretty it was before Ser Mandon blocked out the view. The knight was a white steel shadow, his eyes shining darkly behind his helm. Tyrion had no more strength than a rag doll.

Ser Mandon is described as a "shadow," which evokes the shadow of the man wreathed in flames (which, again, I think is Jon). And it's not that much of a stretch to connect a "rag doll" to a wicker man (or voodoo doll, if you prefer).

Othor acts as a stand-in for Dany, too. Compare this quote from Jon's chapter (AGoT, Jon VII):

[Jon] watched as the direwolf buried his teeth in the wight's gut and began to rip and tear. ... The direwolf wrenched free and came to him as the wight struggled to rise, dark snakes spilling from the great wound in its belly. Jon plunged his hand into the flames, grabbed a fistful of the burning drapes, and whipped them at the dead man.

To this one from AGoT, Dany VIII:

[Dany] tried to rise, and agony seized her and squeezed her like a giant’s fist …. Another pain grasped her, and Dany bit back a scream. It felt as if her son had a knife in each hand, as if he were hacking at her to cut his way out.

Both Dany and Othor try to rise. Jon plunges his hand into the burning drapes and Dany feels as though she’s being “squeezed” by a “giant’s fist.” Ghost has ripped a hole in Othor’s belly with his teeth, letting “dark snakes” (not unlike little dragons) out and Dany is feeling pain in her belly, as if Rhaego (a little dragon) is cutting his way out with knives (but is she really feeling Ghost's teeth?).

Theon is marked as well (ACoK, Theon VI):

Behind him the broken tower stood, its summit as jagged as a crown where fire had collapsed the upper stories long ago. As the sun moved, the shadow of the tower moved as well, gradually lengthening, a black arm reaching out for Theon Greyjoy. By the time the sun touched the wall, he was in its grasp.

This is the same chapter where Ramsay captures Theon. I'm not sure which wounds inflicted on Othor belong to Theon -- he has so many to chose from. Ghost bites off some of Othor's fingers, for example. Ghost also tears at Othor's gut, which isn't that far from the groin.

And then there's Jaime. What happens between Jaime and Jon is a little different. Jaime and Jon share what I like to think of as a Cosmic Handshake of Doom. :P The idea of "taking the right hand" (predecessor of the modern handshake) dates back to ancient Persia. It was an act of sealing a pact or contract. Gods were often depicted "taking the right hand" of kings in carvings, signifying a sort of divine agreement or understanding between the mortal king and the divine. Lots of people have already posted at length about all the weird connections between Jaime's chapters and Jon's, so I won't retread that ground, but I think that Jon and Jaime make a kind of mystical/symbolic "pact" and seal it with the Cosmic Handshake of Doom. Jon takes the idea of "taking the right hand" a bit too literally, though. :P Othor's hand is severed during the fight, and Jaime loses his right hand.

When Jon puts his right hand into the flames, that's his half of the handshake. Jon's hand is burned by the act. Here are Jaime's first thoughts, after he loses his hand (ASoS, Jaime IV):

His hand burned.

Still, still, long after they had snuffed out the torch they’d used to sear his bloody stump, days after, he could still feel the fire lancing up his arm, and his fingers twisting in the flames, the fingers he no longer had.

Jaime was on the receiving end of Jon's fiery handshake. Jaime's severed hand is brought to Harrenhal, but there it disappears. We never find out exactly what happens to it. I think Jon (unwittingly) mystically/symbolically has it. In the form of Longclaw. As a reward for his heroism with Othor, Mormont gives Jon his family's ancestral sword. Mormont tells Jon (AGoT, Jon VIII):

"... I put it aside and thought no more of it until we found it in the ashes of my bedchamber. The original pommel was a bear’s head, silver, yet so worn its features were all but indistinguishable."

The pommel looked like an indistinguishable animal's head. Could it have passed for a lion's head instead of a bears? A bit later, we get this line:

“Does it have a name, my lord?”

“It did, once. Longclaw, it was called.”

“Claw,” the raven cried. “Claw.”

“Longclaw is an apt name.” Jon tried a practice cut. He was clumsy and uncomfortable with his left hand, yet even so the steel seemed to flow through the air, as if it had a will of its own. “Wolves have claws, as much as bears.”

And Lions have claws as much as bears and wolves. Speaking of those three animals, here's a bit from Jaime's Wierwood dream (ASoS, Jaime VI):

“Do they keep a bear down here?” Brienne was moving, slow and wary, sword to hand; step, turn, and listen. Each step made a little splash. “A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?”

“Doom.” No bear, he knew. No lion. “Only doom.”

Interesting that the same three animals come up here. In the dream, Jaime is told that his life is tied to the light from his sword ... as if the sword is a part of him. Brienne asks if there is a lion or direwolves or a bear present in the cave. Jaime rejects lion and bear, but not Direwolf. Longclaw's pommel is, of course, currently in the shape of a direwolf. In the dream, Jaime goes on to lament his failure to protect Rhaegar's children and the king (ironically unaware that a part of him is currently protecting Rhaegar's son and potential heir). Shortly thereafter, Jaime is marked like the others:

The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out .... No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark ....

Still not completely convinced about the Jaime/Longclaw connection? I don't blame you. So far, I've been making a lot of assumptions. But I saved the best piece of evidence for last. Here's a bit from ASoS, Arya III:

“The wolves will drown in blood if the Kingslayer’s loose again. Thoros must be told. The Lord of Light will show him Lannister in the flames.”

And Thoros does indeed see Jaime in the flames (ASoS, Arya VIII):

The red priest squatted down beside her. “My lady,” he said, “the Lord granted me a view of Riverrun. An island in a sea of fire, it seemed. The flames were leaping lions with long crimson claws. And how they roared! A sea of Lannisters, my lady. Riverrun will soon come under attack.”

Arya felt as though he’d punched her in the belly. “No!”

“Sweetling,” said Thoros, “the flames do not lie. Sometimes I read them wrongly , blind fool that I am. But not this time, I think.”

Jaime, of course, is the central Lanninster figure in both Riverrun sieges (he starts the first siege and ends the second). And Thoros sees lions with long (crimson) claws in the flames. Lions with Longclaws.

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts on the subject. What do others think? And Snowfyre, I haven't forgotten about the wreath thread! I've been working on a post, but it's taking me a lot longer to write up than I thought. :)

[Lord Ravenstark]

post

I think there are some big answers here to some of the core principles of Heresy and I hope we can flesh this out a little bit more.

Winterfell stones are all grey.

Just a little crackpot for tonight:

Drogon is Azor Ahai reborn!

- comes from the Aerys+Rhaella line, kind of
- born amidst smoke and salt (some cried salty tears at the funeral pyre for Drogo)
- the red star bled
- wirlds a flaming red sword, kind off
- the prophecy doesn't say that Azor Ahai is human

:dunno:

Now you crossed a line in heresy that I will not dare to cross :drunk: . However, the one who will come from Aerys and Rhaella line is the prince that was promised. I don't think they are the same. The Targaryens already have an ego bigger than everything they did, since the first Targaryen back in the Valyria of old. (Targaryen's idiosyncrasy)

post

I don't think the children chose. I believe they are indeed fighting. I don't think they have any particular grudge against man, at least not First Men, but I have think they would kill every non-children in the world if it would ensure their survival. Well, a greenseer is not only a shaman but also a powerful asset, almost a weapon. I don't think the CotF care if the weapon was built in the middle of Kansas or a terrorist base... if it will serve their purpose is all they care about.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

...

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts on the subject. What do others think? And Snowfyre, I haven't forgotten about the wreath thread! I've been working on a post, but it's taking me a lot longer to write up than I thought. :)

Schmendrick, you are a Magician! I love it - fantastic work, drawing things together and making connections!

I'll post more of my thoughts on it soon... limited time, now. Meanwhile, don't be offended if the heretics raise objections and/or start poking holes in the theory. That's what we do around here - it's part of a heretic's job description to disagree.

Welcome to heresy!

[#Fire and Blood]

From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …”

Is this a reference to the wights or other undead like Beric?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Jojen becomes very depressed the longer they are in the cave. He seems to be accepting his fate (whatever that may be). He wants to return to Greywater watch as if his work has been completed.

Why is Jojen so depressed? Is it truly because he is aware of his impending death, or is it because he knows he led Bran to a bad situation?

.

My main read on Jojen/Meera, in terms of their outlook on life, is that they embody and personify Bran's impending dilemma: choosing between worldviews based on Determinism/Fate (Jojen) or Free Will/Hope (Meera). Bran is about to be exposed to "the truth"... or, at least, what the COTF want him to believe is the truth. In response, he will need to choose whether or not to fight that truth.

Also noteworthy is that Jojen's suffering begins (or increases dramatically) once he passes through the Black Gate. Almost as if he doesn't belong north of the Wall...

.

[Schmendrick]

Schmendrick, you are a Magician! I love it - fantastic work, drawing things together and making connections!

I'll post more of my thoughts on it soon... limited time, now. Meanwhile, don't be offended if the heretics raise objections and/or start poking holes in the theory. That's what we do around here - it's part of a heretic's job description to disagree.

Welcome to heresy!

Thanks! :) I'm never offended by constructive criticism. Honestly, I only posted a portion of a much larger theory, so there are definitely some holes to fill in. For example, I didn't quote enough of the text I'm relying on to support the initial premise of a blood magic connection between Jon's fight with Othor and MMD's dance of the dead (including the evidence that the man wreathed in flames is Jon). I might remedy that when I get the chance, if people are interested.

[GoldenVale]

Also noteworthy is that Jojen's suffering begins (or increases dramatically) once he passes through the Black Gate. Almost as if he doesn't belong north of the Wall...

.

Odd considering he's from the North AND a greendreamer AND a crannogman who may very well have been the closest socially to the CotF. You'd think he'd do well. If you're correct and there's some outside source for his condition, then I'd wager it's deliberate and specifically targeted at him.

Perhaps he knows what's in store for him and he agreed to lead Bran to Bloodraven and the Children (or is it the Children and Bloodraven?) in exchange for a "cure"? If that is in fact what he needs? Something to think about at least.

[wolfmaid7]

What I meant was, is she the cold? My thought is, the cold being an overall force that is sustaining the Wight Walkers and creating Wights can present itself as a being. I am trying to think of a relevant example in another story but it is escaping me right now. Does anybody know what I mean and have an example?

If i get what you're saying nah, i don't think she is "the cold" for a few reasons.Chief among them is that in my opinion gives her to much of that Deux Machina feel.Magic we know in GRRM's world doesn't do the Tolkien thing so i'm not seeing anyone wielding "The cold" if they are (doubt it ) then they are the only ones whose magic is working perfect for them.This world evokes communal collective behavior;from the COTF,Giants,WWs etc, all seem to have that sense.

I never gave much thought to what "the cold" might be and following that same pattern to see even the propensity for the Wights to gather ;i'd say " the cold" be it biological(Extremophile ) or supernatural it most likely is a collective entity.I characterized- and left it at that without further analysis-The Cold as the ultimate Skinchanger,but of the dead.See where i' going with this.From BR's talk with Bran he can't see the future,he can only see the past and as he says "learn from it".

Off topic, but needed to post.

Jojen Reed is said to have prophetic dreams that come true.

"I dreamed of the man who came today, the one they call Reek. You and your brother lay dead at his feet, and he was skinning off your faces with a long red blade." - *Turns out this was fulfilled through the millers boys, but pretty close.

"It is the sea that comes."

"The sea?"

"I dreamed that the sea was lapping all around Winterfell. I saw the black waves crashing against the gates and towers, and then the salt water came flowing over the walls and filled the castle. Drowned men were floating in the yard. When I first dreamed the dream, back at Greywater, I didn't know their faces, but now I do. That Alebelly is one, the guard who called our names at the feast. Your septon's another. Your smith as well."

*This one is pretty much dead on, the Ironborn coming into WF and destroying it.

I think we all assume that Jojen is on the side of the Starks. He is convinced by what he has seen in his green dreams, that the answer to save man from the approaching dissaster (Others and Wights attack), Bran must go North to the 3EC.

"I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains," he said. "It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them."

"Did the crow have three eyes?"

Jojen nodded.

*Has this prophecy been fulfilled or not?

Jojen says that he believes it is the 3EC that is trying to help Bran open his third eye. I have trouble thinking that this is an accurate reading by Jojen. I have searched and I can not seem to come up with anything in WF to represent the grey stone chains holding Bran down. However, in the cave where the childen and BR are, the are surrounded by grey stone. They are also trapped (or "chained") in the cave since there is not a close exit that isn't littered with Wights waiting to attack. Not to mention the question of the weirwood paste perhaps starting the process of Bran becoming one with the tree. Nothing seems more chained down that when we see BR, and he waited so long for Bran so he could teach him his ways.

Jojen becomes very depressed the longer they are in the cave. He seems to be accepting his fate (whatever that may be). He wants to return to Greywater watch as if his work has been completed.

Here are my questions:

Did Jojen mis-interpret the "chained" dream like he misinterpreted Bran and Rickon for the Millers boys?

If Jojen is on the side of th Starks and the Children are indeed not out to help men, why did Jojen take him to the cave?

Why is Jojen so depressed? Is it truly because he is aware of his impending death, or is it because he knows he led Bran to a bad situation?

I think there are some big answers here to some of the core principles of Heresy and I hope we can flesh this out a little bit more.

I think Jojen may be susceptible like some of the "prophets" in this series to misinterpretation.For instance, and this is just a gut feeling how do we know for sure that Bran is the Winged Wolf? Jojen says when he got to WF and saw Bran he believed it was him.He believed it was him.

However,BR told Bran "his blood makes him a GS",so it makes me feel any Stark that showed up would have been ok as a GS. But the kicker is was Jojen's interpretation right,and was it BR (if he appears as a crow) was he "the" crow that appeared to Jojen?

I’d like to expand a little on the possible outcome that this business may be resolved by severing the connection between the realms of men and the magical realms, and do so chiefly by reference to three themes; first Leaf’s speech on the looming extinction of the Old Races, secondly the importance of blood and third, the emphasis on everything having a price.

There seems to be a fair consensus in these pages that Leaf isn’t to be trusted or at least isn’t telling the whole story. I see no reason to doubt that the Old Races are indeed in decline, but am less convinced by her professed acceptance of that fate. I think that they are fighting against it, but not necessarily by conventional means.

Why the emphasis on a human greenseer? Bran has been brought to the cave as a replacement for the failing Bloodraven, but who did Bloodraven replace? Did he replace one of the Children or was there a human greenseer before him? I really see no reason not to suppose that there was a human greenseer before him, but that of course raises the question of why? I’ve proposed before that the purpose of Bloodraven now and Bran in the future is to provide the Children with a window into the realms of men, but I wonder if its also something deeper.

We’re constantly told of the power of blood both in general terms and more specifically of the wolf blood and the blood of the Dragon linking the Starks to Ice and the Targaryens to Fire. To keep things simple I’m sticking with the Starks here but think what I’m suggesting is applicable to both parties.

The Starks apparently have an affinity to Ice/Winter and are either latent or active wargs, paired with their direwolves. We’re not told how or why they have the wolfblood but it gives them power and may be why they have been Kings in the North for so very long.

But what of the price? What is the price of the wolfblood and the power that goes with it?

Does it provide the Old Races and their magic with a link or a toehold in the realms of men; a link that if broken will not restore the magical balance between Ice and Fire but banish magic entirely from the realms of men?

I certainly believe the COTF are playing things close to the chest,i have a feeling that they can discern "time and season". From Leaf and BR's conversation with Bran ( i'll post later) i get the feeling that the "manifestation" of Skinchanger/Prophetic sight occurs cyclically ,hence the "we cannot change the past,but only learn from it" phrase from BR.They have a Window of time based on knowledge of the past to swap up a GS.This is probably how they survived this long as a race.This combo of a human with the ability to bond with a magical creature and have prophetic dream is the reason i believe Dany is in the mix to be swapped up too.

Therefore,i believe having a Spirit center(man) keeps them from total extinction,having a link to "the past" especially a past that is cyclical is knowledge of the future. Thus they can prepare.Hence if they don't have a GS the line to that knowledge is lost because they can't access it and that is death.They won't be able to tell the signs for certain things so they won't be able to prepare.IMHO.

Thanks to The Snowfyre Chorus for pointing me in the direction of this post. I hope what I'm about to write isn't off-topic -- I'm still somewhat unfamiliar with the Heresy threads. This involves a wight and strange magical happenings at the Wall, so hopefully I'm good to post it here.

I don't think the connection between Othor's wounds and Tyrion's is a coincidence. I've been developing a theory related to this for some time, but I haven't ironed out all of the rough edges yet (so apologies in advance if some of this is a little rough). The gist of the theory is that Jon's fight with Othor (AGoT, Jon VII) and MMD's song and dance of death in the sandsilk tent (AGoT, Dany VIII) are connected through the blood magic MMD invokes (I think the shadows of the great wolf and the man wreathed in flames that Dany glimpses are Ghost and Jon, which strengthens the connections between the two chapters, if I'm right).

Othor essentially becomes a wicker man stand-in (for lack of a better term) for various characters that the powers awoken by MMD's song proceed to "mark" or "claim." Jon and Ghost inflict wounds on Othor that mirror the wounds inflicted on these "marked" characters. When Jon plunges his hand into the burning curtain, it symbolically acts as the hand of whatever force is being invoked by MMD, reaching through the "curtain between worlds" and "grasping" the chosen characters. What's interesting is that we usually see imagery of a "hand" descending on or grasping the "marked" characters right before things get interesting in their story arcs. Obviously, much of what follows only works if we accept that whatever is going on here can transcend time and location.

Since you mentioned Tyrion, here's his recollection as he lies in bed recovering from his wounds after the Blackwater (ACoK, Tyrion XV):

I think the wording here is a clue. Not "Ser Mandon Moor's hand" (even though that's literally what it was) but "a hand." And then, of course, "a sword coming at his face" (not "Ser Mandon's sword").

And here's a snippet from immediately after Tyrion is "marked" on the Blackwater (ACoK, Tyrion XIV):

Ser Mandon is described as a "shadow," which evokes the shadow of the man wreathed in flames (which, again, I think is Jon). And it's not that much of a stretch to connect a "rag doll" to a wicker man (or voodoo doll, if you prefer).

Othor acts as a stand-in for Dany, too. Compare this quote from Jon's chapter (AGoT, Jon VII):

To this one from AGoT, Dany VIII:

Both Dany and Othor try to rise. Jon plunges his hand into the burning drapes and Dany feels as though she’s being “squeezed” by a “giant’s fist.” Ghost has ripped a hole in Othor’s belly with his teeth, letting “dark snakes” (not unlike little dragons) out and Dany is feeling pain in her belly, as if Rhaego (a little dragon) is cutting his way out with knives (but is she really feeling Ghost's teeth?).

Theon is marked as well (ACoK, Theon VI):

This is the same chapter where Ramsay captures Theon. I'm not sure which wounds inflicted on Othor belong to Theon -- he has so many to chose from. Ghost bites off some of Othor's fingers, for example. Ghost also tears at Othor's gut, which isn't that far from the groin.

And then there's Jaime. What happens between Jaime and Jon is a little different. Jaime and Jon share what I like to think of as a Cosmic Handshake of Doom. :P The idea of "taking the right hand" (predecessor of the modern handshake) dates back to ancient Persia. It was an act of sealing a pact or contract. Gods were often depicted "taking the right hand" of kings in carvings, signifying a sort of divine agreement or understanding between the mortal king and the divine. Lots of people have already posted at length about all the weird connections between Jaime's chapters and Jon's, so I won't retread that ground, but I think that Jon and Jaime make a kind of mystical/symbolic "pact" and seal it with the Cosmic Handshake of Doom. Jon takes the idea of "taking the right hand" a bit too literally, though. :P Othor's hand is severed during the fight, and Jaime loses his right hand.

When Jon puts his right hand into the flames, that's his half of the handshake. Jon's hand is burned by the act. Here are Jaime's first thoughts, after he loses his hand (ASoS, Jaime IV):

Jaime was on the receiving end of Jon's fiery handshake. Jaime's severed hand is brought to Harrenhal, but there it disappears. We never find out exactly what happens to it. I think Jon (unwittingly) mystically/symbolically has it. In the form of Longclaw. As a reward for his heroism with Othor, Mormont gives Jon his family's ancestral sword. Mormont tells Jon (AGoT, Jon VIII):

The pommel looked like an indistinguishable animal's head. Could it have passed for a lion's head instead of a bears? A bit later, we get this line:

And Lions have claws as much as bears and wolves. Speaking of those three animals, here's a bit from Jaime's Wierwood dream (ASoS, Jaime VI):

Interesting that the same three animals come up here. In the dream, Jaime is told that his life is tied to the light from his sword ... as if the sword is a part of him. Brienne asks if there is a lion or direwolves or a bear present in the cave. Jaime rejects lion and bear, but not Direwolf. Longclaw's pommel is, of course, currently in the shape of a direwolf. In the dream, Jaime goes on to lament his failure to protect Rhaegar's children and the king (ironically unaware that a part of him is currently protecting Rhaegar's son and potential heir). Shortly thereafter, Jaime is marked like the others:

Still not completely convinced about the Jaime/Longclaw connection? I don't blame you. So far, I've been making a lot of assumptions. But I saved the best piece of evidence for last. Here's a bit from ASoS, Arya III:

And Thoros does indeed see Jaime in the flames (ASoS, Arya VIII):

Jaime, of course, is the central Lanninster figure in both Riverrun sieges (he starts the first siege and ends the second). And Thoros sees lions with long (crimson) claws in the flames. Lions with Longclaws.

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts on the subject. What do others think? And Snowfyre, I haven't forgotten about the wreath thread! I've been working on a post, but it's taking me a lot longer to write up than I thought. :)

I can't tell you how much i love this,but i do and would like to see it in totality.It lines up nicely with "the left hand path" motif of the characters you mentioned.

[Grey Words]

I’d like to expand a little on the possible outcome that this business may be resolved by severing the connection between the realms of men and the magical realms, and do so chiefly by reference to three themes; first Leaf’s speech on the looming extinction of the Old Races, secondly the importance of blood and third, the emphasis on everything having a price.

There seems to be a fair consensus in these pages that Leaf isn’t to be trusted or at least isn’t telling the whole story. I see no reason to doubt that the Old Races are indeed in decline, but am less convinced by her professed acceptance of that fate. I think that they are fighting against it, but not necessarily by conventional means.

Why the emphasis on a human greenseer? Bran has been brought to the cave as a replacement for the failing Bloodraven, but who did Bloodraven replace? Did he replace one of the Children or was there a human greenseer before him? I really see no reason not to suppose that there was a human greenseer before him, but that of course raises the question of why? I’ve proposed before that the purpose of Bloodraven now and Bran in the future is to provide the Children with a window into the realms of men, but I wonder if its also something deeper.

We’re constantly told of the power of blood both in general terms and more specifically of the wolf blood and the blood of the Dragon linking the Starks to Ice and the Targaryens to Fire. To keep things simple I’m sticking with the Starks here but think what I’m suggesting is applicable to both parties.

The Starks apparently have an affinity to Ice/Winter and are either latent or active wargs, paired with their direwolves. We’re not told how or why they have the wolfblood but it gives them power and may be why they have been Kings in the North for so very long.

But what of the price? What is the price of the wolfblood and the power that goes with it?

Does it provide the Old Races and their magic with a link or a toehold in the realms of men; a link that if broken will not restore the magical balance between Ice and Fire but banish magic entirely from the realms of men?

You pose some very interesting questions and it's possible that resolution of the woes plaguing Westeros may be “resolved by severing the connection between the realms of men and the magical realms”. What troubles me is that the world evidently was balanced long ago when magic was in full flower so to speak. I think the expansion of humans into that world was inevitable, but was't handled properly by either side and the Children abused their power using the Hammer of the Water. I think their decline was a price they paid. And it's possible they've compounded the by being somehow tied to the Others and maybe that's why Leaf is seems dodgy.

The rise of the Starks and Targaryans with their partially “magical blood” kind of makes them each hinge families. The decline of the Targaryans death and exile has created a vacuum on the fire end of the spectrum and maybe that's why the nasties in the north are on the rise. But now with the Starks, as Kings in the North in decline and under attack, the whole R'hllor fire contingency is moving into the void.

I wonder if the price of the wolfblood, like the price for the dragon blood is that they are always under attack? Or perhaps, they have a debt of respect to the magical realm that they have forgotten to pay? Ned sure denied it. Maybe the Targs abused their magic by using the dragons for war, or simply using them for their own personal gain?

It does pose the question if the whole realm would be better of without either bloody family? (har har)

----------------------------------------------

For wolfmaid7 in particular and anyone else curious about parallels in Lakota mythology: I presented some stuff in another topic that could be relevant here to your Cold as an entity theory and am pasting some of it here:

As I mentioned before, my personal background is Lakota and in that tradition Waziya, the north wind is a being – he is associated with the wolf, crow and snowy owl because they can survive in his world.

Waziya brings the winter snow and ice, is vicious, cruel and essentially the patron of starvation and illnesses related to the cold. Waziya, is one bad dude in that he is incredibly strong fierce, cruel, greedy and pitiless. He is not necessarily windy either and can just be the cold. He loves turning the world to ice and killing things with his coldness. The more damage he can do to Maka Ina, Mother Earth, and the beings that exist on her, the more fulfilled he is. If he wants to, Wiziya can take a physical form as a huge and powerful man that not only looks terrifying, but can do tremendous damage. In his physical form he wears wolf skins (not reflective armor).

edit: inclusionary invite added.

[addicted to snow]

Thanks! :) I'm never offended by constructive criticism. Honestly, I only posted a portion of a much larger theory, so there are definitely some holes to fill in. For example, I didn't quote enough of the text I'm relying on to support the initial premise of a blood magic connection between Jon's fight with Othor and MMD's dance of the dead (including the evidence that the man wreathed in flames is Jon). I might remedy that when I get the chance, if people are interested.

I am interested.