Howland Reed = High Septon?

[pobeb]

Actually, there is. His desire for revenge against the squires who mugged him is mentioned twice in TKotLT story.

Bran 2 from ASOS:

"None offered a name, but he marked their faces well so he could revenge himself upon them later."

Same chapter, next page:

"The lad was no knight, no more than any of his people. We sit a boat more often than a horse, and our hands are made for oars, not lances. Much as he wished to have his vengeance, he feared he would only make a fool of himself and shame his people."

Good work, Pobeb, matching up the septas. The best piece of evidence for me is the faces of the Seven carved into the walls of the HS inner sanctum; unmistakable resemblance to weirwood faces.

I love it when someone does their homework!

Good job!

[Rheagar_valyria.]

There are a few doubts regarding the age part, as howland reed isn't older than 35-40 and the septon has been described as someone with a heavy lined face and greys.

But overall, it does seem to fit.

The irony, that he isn't hiding anywhere else but kings landing. Using his small or whatever power he has, building an army to fight the others, as the cragnonmen were close to the CoTF and the CoTF were against the others. ( they used to provide 100 obsidian to the nights watch every year )

the cragnonmen were the closest to the CoTF who worshipped the old gods and at also, he was at the Isle of faces for the longest time. Further evidence that he won't go change over to the new gods.

We all know of varys and his soft corner for the targaryens. Howland reed was the only one who knew about R+L=J , and now if varys knows, they'd probably be working together for the kingdom and also, GRRM has said that he'll be introducing howland reed in the books, as in he'll be coming out.

So it does make pretty much sense. Thanks for bringing this up, whoever did.

Let's see what GRRM has in store for us.

[pobeb]

So, let's add to the idea that Cersei commits suicide in the wake of the Trial by Seven. Is there precedent for suicide? Yes, observe:

“Stannis may take the city and he may take the throne, but I will not suffer him to judge me. I do not mean for him to have us alive.”

Specifically, Cersei would rather die than be judged. Trial, anyone?

Then, Tyrion foreshadows how Cersei will die:

"... A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you’ll know the debt is paid.”

Ashes? Wait... isn't "The Strangler" a poison made with ashes?

It was made from a certain plant that grew only on the islands of the Jade Sea, half a world away. The leaves had to be aged, and soaked in a wash of limes and sugar water and certain rare spices from the Summer Isles. Afterward they could be discarded, but the potion must be thickened with ash and allowed to crystallize.

And doesn't Maggy the Frog predict that Cersei will be strangled and choke to death?

And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

There's still more room to dig... anyone wanna grab a shovel and help me? ;)

Speaking of which, why is everyone so confident of Howland's age? Maybe I'm missing something. Anyone have a quote that references his age?

The only two I can find are:

They were none older than fifteen, yet even so they were bigger than him, all three.

So, here we can clearly see Howland regarding 15 as young. And "yet even so" means that despite Howland being older, the squires were bigger.

Then, Lyanna says:

"That’s my father’s man you’re kicking"

Indicating that Howland is a man at the time.

Well, that was in 281AC. We're currently in 300AC. 19 years have passed. Let's say Howland, a man, is 30yrs old at the Tourney at Harrenhal. He'd be creeping up on 50 in current events. Unless I've completely overlooked something, there isn't any indication of exactly how old Howland is, other than he's definitely older than 15, and he's definitely a man.

[Slavers Bay City Rollers]

I like the theory, though the HS seems quite a bit older then HR is.

[pobeb]

^please observe the post above you :)

[russel]

So, let's add to the idea that Cersei commits suicide in the wake of the Trial by Seven. Is there precedent for suicide? Yes, observe:

Specifically, Cersei would rather die than be judged. Trial, anyone?

Then, Tyrion foreshadows how Cersei will die:

Ashes? Wait... isn't "The Strangler" a poison made with ashes?

And doesn't Maggy the Frog predict that Cersei will be strangled and choke to death?

There's still more room to dig... anyone wanna grab a shovel and help me? ;)

Speaking of which, why is everyone so confident of Howland's age? Maybe I'm missing something. Anyone have a quote that references his age?

The only two I can find are:

So, here we can clearly see Howland regarding 15 as young. And "yet even so" means that despite Howland being older, the squires were bigger.

Then, Lyanna says:

Indicating that Howland is a man at the time.

Well, that was in 281AC. We're currently in 300AC. 19 years have passed. Let's say Howland, a man, is 30yrs old at the Tourney at Harrenhal. He'd be creeping up on 50 in current events. Unless I've completely overlooked something, there isn't any indication of exactly how old Howland is, other than he's definitely older than 15, and he's definitely a man.

The Knight of the Laughing Tree is discribed as a "lad"by Meena hardly a fitting term for a man of 30 however small.

"The lad was no knight, no more than any of his people. We sit a boat more often than a horse, and our hands are made for oars, not lances"

[Red Tiger]

Indicating that Howland is a man at the time.

Please keep in mind that by Westerosi Standards, you are pretty much a man at 15.

[Hippocras]

I am so looking forward to coming back to this thread and gloating when we meet Howland Reed, and he is NOT the High Sparrow.

Because he just isn't.

I really wish there was a way to stop useless threads like this from continuing to pop up in my content list when I make the naive mistake of believing that people will actually pay attention to contradictory evidence. I thought that pointing out the facts, clearly showing this theory to be nothing but wishful thinking would wind down the discussion. Serves me right I guess.

Some people think they can simply write long essays of far fetched tidbits, call it evidence, and simply WILL something they want to happen into being true when all the actual evidence says otherwise. Well news flash people: there is a very limited capacity for hidden identities in intelligent novels. We are already at the limit. This one is not gonna make it.

[Ser Eric]

I am so looking forward to coming back to this thread and gloating when we meet Howland Reed, and he is NOT the High Sparrow.

Because he just isn't.

I really wish there was a way to stop useless threads like this from continuing to pop up in my content list when I make the naive mistake of believing that people will actually pay attention to contradictory evidence. I thought that pointing out the facts, clearly showing this theory to be nothing but wishful thinking would wind down the discussion. Serves me right I guess.

Some people think they can simply write long essays of far fetched tidbits, call it evidence, and simply WILL something they want to happen into being true when all the actual evidence says otherwise. Well news flash people: there is a very limited capacity for hidden identities in intelligent novels. We are already at the limit. This one is not gonna make it.

Why don't you unsubscribe from the thread then? That seems like the more prudent option rather than continuously whine about how wrong everyone else is. In fact, given the multitude of nonsensical theories on this forum why don't you just delete your account and be done with it. You don't HAVE to post in this thread. Jesus.

And it's not like you haven't posted useless theories. I've read one of your theories which is about ten tiimes worse than this one and that's putting it mildly.

[Lady Arya's Song]

More possible hints to this theory which I happen to love.

More Hints that the Faith of the Seven and worship of the Old gods are both involved in the King's Landing Sept.

A new High Septon extends the practice of Septons giving up their family names by renouncing any kind of individual name.

This is due to the belief that the individual becoming High Septon is no longer a man but an avatar of the gods.

Howland Reed would indeed be the spokesman for the Greenmen on the Isle of Faces(old gods) and the Faith of the Seven if he is the High Septon.

They made their way through the Hall of Lamps beneath colored globes of leaded glass, Tommen’s hand in hers. Trant and Kettleblack flanked them, water dripping from their wet cloaks to puddle on the floor. The High Septon walked slowly, leaning on a weirwood staff topped by a crystal orb. (Tywin's funeral)

I find the fact that the staff the High Septon is leaning on a combination of the old gods and the Faith quite interesting. Is GRRM giving us a small hint that it is not incompatible for the Faith of Seven and worship of the Old Gods?

Another perhaps crackpot idea. Are Ned’s bones actually part of the bones in KL now? Did they travel with Howland Reed and his followers back to Baelor’s Sept? I find it quite interesting that this High Septon speaks about Ned’s bones to Cersei and we know that the Septon Brienne met was pulling a cart with bones. I certainly could see Ned’s bones being brought back to the statue of Baelor for use later on.

Final crackpot theory I have.

The turtles that Tyrion describes in his journey on the shy maid I believe are metaphors for groups of people in the story. There are a dozen types of turtles. I have had alot of fun grouping characters under the various "turtles" as Martin describes them.

The turtle metaphor that interests me in regard to Howland Reed being the High Septon is below.

The horned turtle of enormous size who rocks the the Shy Maid. The description of this turtle.

It’s dark green shell mottled with brown and overgrown with water moss and crusty black river molluscs. (Descriptions that remind me of this New High Septon’s face, feet.)

It raised its head and bellowed a deep-throated thrumming roar louder than any warhorn that Tyrion had ever heard. This calling to war creates a commotion onboard the Shy Maid.

It is interesting to view how the various characters aboard the Shy Maid react to this turtle.

Haldon came out on deck but too late…. The giant turtle had vanished below the water once again. I expect to see this New High Septon vanish once his work is accomplished perhaps back to Greywater Watch.

“It was him,” cried Yandry. “ The Old Man of the River.” Can Howland Reed be described as the old man of the river? Yes in my world he sure can!

“ We are blessed, we are blessed” Ysilla’s response.

Both of the above responses could be applied to Howland Reed as the avatar and spokesman for the old gods and the Faith as the High Septon.

And why not? Tyrion grinned. Gods and wonders always appear to attend the birth of kings.”

What is the blessing of the High Septon but the birth of a king since all kings date their reigns from the day they are blessed by the High Septon.

I would love it if Howland Reed announces the reign of a new king!

[Mithras]

Lady Arya's Song, that is a very good catch. The HS is the Old Man of the River(lands) and he will bless fAegon too.

But I don't think that necessarily means the HS is HR.

[Talking Hodor]

Howland Reed worships the old gods. He probably can't even name all seven of the new gods. "In the name of, uh, the Mother, uh, Zeus, hmm, Talos...is Jupiter in there? What? He's the same thing as Zeus? Aw, fuck me, this is why we don't name our gods!"

[Lady Arya's Song]

I know Paper Waiver.:) And normally I just love your theories.

However, I do love this theory as well and I do think Martin has given us plenty of hints throughout the story regarding this new High Septon that make me think about the possibility that Howland Reed is part of a mummer's farce in King's Landing.

Also would GRRM actually have some of Ned's bones ie ashes involved in Cersei's poison? My mind recoils and boggles at the idea but hey this is George Martin we are speaking about and better minds than mine have speculated on Jorgen paste...lol

And Ned is a younger brother. Perhaps our assumption of Jaime as the valonqar involves some ashes from Ned another valonqar being used in a poison..called The Strangler.

I never get upset if others do not like my theories. We all speculate till the next book comes out. :)

[Hippocras]

Why don't you unsubscribe from the thread then? That seems like the more prudent option rather than continuously whine about how wrong everyone else is. In fact, given the multitude of nonsensical theories on this forum why don't you just delete your account and be done with it. You don't HAVE to post in this thread. Jesus.

And it's not like you haven't posted useless theories. I've read one of your theories which is about ten tiimes worse than this one and that's putting it mildly.

I never subscribed in the first place. I simply commented, and from that point forward, kept getting notified on new comments. There is no way to stop this apparently. It is permanently in my content list.

[kiasyd]

p.s. I'm wondering if a new thread is in order. Maybe entitled, Cersei's Trial = ToJ 2.0?

Pobeb, I think you made a great case, and I believe you're onto something here - I find your whole argument for HR = HS really compelling, love Mormont's and Glover's involvement and I particularly think that the Trial of Joy (ToJ 2.0) should be explored in a separate thread.

Congratulations for such fine work! ^_^

[Lady Arya's Song]

Pobeb,

I too think your TOJ 2.0 is a fine catch and I also like your Maege Mormont and the septa identities.

I actually had looked at Mance's washerwomen alongside these septas trying to find some parallels.

I never could make any connections.

Well done.

[Ser Eric]

I never subscribed in the first place. I simply commented, and from that point forward, kept getting notified on new comments. There is no way to stop this apparently. It is permanently in my content list.

Regardless, you don't have to reply if you are not going to offer anything constructve. Pretty much every singe one of your post in this thread has been abrupt dismissal of the theory. We get it, you don't like it. No need to go on and on and on about it.

[three-eyed monkey]

I am so looking forward to coming back to this thread and gloating when we meet Howland Reed, and he is NOT the High Sparrow.

Because he just isn't.

I really wish there was a way to stop useless threads like this from continuing to pop up in my content list when I make the naive mistake of believing that people will actually pay attention to contradictory evidence. I thought that pointing out the facts, clearly showing this theory to be nothing but wishful thinking would wind down the discussion. Serves me right I guess.

Some people think they can simply write long essays of far fetched tidbits, call it evidence, and simply WILL something they want to happen into being true when all the actual evidence says otherwise. Well news flash people: there is a very limited capacity for hidden identities in intelligent novels. We are already at the limit. This one is not gonna make it.

With all due respect, Hippocras, if you don't like the topic then stop returning to it. You've made your points against the theory, and good for you. As far as I can tell you think there is too big an age difference between the HS and HR, you think the HS and HR have different eye colour, ( neither of which you've supported with text), and you believe that as HR follows the old gods then there is no way he could infiltrate the faith. The first first two might be deal-breakers for me if there was textual evidence, but as Pobeb pointed out, there is no concise indication as to HR's eye colour or age. The last one is just opinion so we'll have to agree to differ on that one, but I respect your opinion even if I don't find it persuasive. The rest of your posts just repeat the same points or else moan about how stupid the thread is and demand that it should be locked and how you look forward to gloating about it if it turns out to be incorrect. None of this strengthens your case in any way, shape, or form.

This is a forum where possibilities, even seemingly far fetched ones, are explored and some of your fellow members have put some time into digging up pieces of text that are certainly intriguing, to say the least. I don't think this one is as far-fetched as some of the theories I've read over the years and it's far more interesting than most, in my opinion. And I'm so glad the rest of us don't have to get your approval about what topics we can or cannot read and comment on.

And BTW, what exactly is the limit for hidden identities in an intelligent novel?

[Hippocras]

Because, there are very serious and obvious flaws with this theory!

People need to stop pretending that the fact that HR belongs to a completely different religion is not a deal breaker. Because it is. The High Sparrow was a wandering Septon for YEARS before becoming High Septon. His feet prove it. He did not suddenly start wandering around when Ned died. He had a following of wandering septons long before that.

While the High Sparrow was wandering around for years barefoot, Howland Reed was RAISING HIS KIDS AT HOME AT GREYWATER WATCH! If their Dad had been absent from their lives, as is implied by the life of a wandering Septon, Meera and Jojen would not have so many stories to tell that he told them would they? There is zero indication in anything his children say that their father is not exactly where he is supposed to be as their father and lord of the Neck - looking after his home and people.

Also a deal breaker is his age. The dismissals of this are ridiculous. Talk about twisting around remote possibilities to fit your preferred interpretation! When GRRM wrote that the High Sparrow had grey hair and a heavily lined face, the ENTIRE POINT OF THE DESCRIPTION WAS TO GIVE A SENSE OF ADVANCED AGE. So the age difference of at least a decade, probably much more is ALSO a deal breaker. The absolutely ONLY thing in the physical description that matches is the small size. But these two characters are FAR from being the only small men in the books. Littlefinger is also small.

[pobeb]

“It was him,” cried Yandry. “ The Old Man of the River.” Can Howland Reed be described as the old man of the river? Yes in my world he sure can!

“ We are blessed, we are blessed” Ysilla’s response.

And why not? Tyrion grinned. Gods and wonders always appear to attend the birth of kings.”

Firstly:

:bowdown:

Secondly:

Lady Arya's Song, you are amazing. Truly. I had not, even for a moment, considered the turtle. What a brilliant catch! I am asbolutely THRILLED that people are beginning to see the connections :)

Speaking of which, everyone ready for me to utterly destroy that "eye color" nonsensical argument? Observe:

His face was sharply pointed, with deep-set eyes as brown as mud.

Bran saw that his eyes were the color of moss

We can ignore the color because, as I've already established, we've seen different children with different colored eyes from their fathers before (Jon/Rhaegar, Ned/Robb)

But, what we can't ignore is that in our first descriptions of the HS and Jojen's eyes, we aren't just suggested a color, but things one might find in crannogman-land: mud and moss :)

The Knight of the Laughing Tree is discribed as a "lad"by Meena hardly a fitting term for a man of 30 however small.

"The lad was no knight, no more than any of his people. We sit a boat more often than a horse, and our hands are made for oars, not lances"

*sigh* Russel, you were so close to the answer you wanted... if only you would have continued reading:

But this lad was bolder than most, and one day when he had grown to manhood he decided he would leave the crannogs and visit the Isle of Faces.”

See what I mean? :frown5:

Pobeb, I think you made a great case, and I believe you're onto something here - I find your whole argument for HR = HS really compelling, love Mormont's and Glover's involvement and I particularly think that the Trial of Joy (ToJ 2.0) should be explored in a separate thread.

Congratulations for such fine work! ^_^

Pobeb,

I too think your TOJ 2.0 is a fine catch and I also like your Maege Mormont and the septa identities.

I actually had looked at Mance's washerwomen alongside these septas trying to find some parallels.

I never could make any connections.

Well done.

Thank you both! I'll be working on a grand, all encompassing theory soon. A lot of the meat of this HR=HS theory is buried deep within this thread; I think the OP needs to be updated, or a new thread needs to be created all together.

Because, there are very serious and obvious flaws with this theory!

I'm as tired of you posting here as you are of seeing this in your content queue.

You're a pox on good ideas. You represent everything I hold negatively about this forum: People who refuse to do their own research.

You won't cite, you're deaf to reason, and you interject these wild arguments that are simply not supported in the text - such as:

- Howland must being young (despite the wealth of evidence I've shown which proves otherwise)

- Howland must have green eyes (despite the fact that I've debunked the eye color prerequisites, SEVERAL times)

- Howland can't be HS because of the contrasting religions (despite the fact that the basis of this theory is that Howland is PRETENDING and under a DISGUISE)

- Howland wouldn't have blackened Septon feet (despite the fact that we have no knowledge to prove otherwise)

I'm sorry that you can't overlook this thread in your content queue, but NOBODY is making you click on it, and NOBODY is forcing you to post in it. If you really hate our ideas, you could simply just go away, and remove yourself from the conversation. Trust me, you wouldn't be missed.