Poll Results, a Fallacy on the Wall, and a Survivor(Grey Wind!)

[Berric_Dondiedagain]

I like the idea- I read the entire post -

not sure I am entirely convinced but I don't think its out of the realm of GRRM-

certainly not something to get all puffy and mad and call you names over-

- this isn't the worst thing ever- and is definitely better than reading about who Jon's dad is-

I feel like it is possible that Ghost was not including himself-everyone mentioned the six of us part- but then he says the 5 of them are sucking dead teat while I walked away- four remain, one I cant sense- so 4 of the 5 remain- not counting him-so the one he cant sense could be lady-

I can also see it as ambiguous: is it -there are 4 (plus) one I cant sense -or- there are 4 (and one of those 4) I cant sense-

Also I do not think grammatical structure can rule in or out anything- GRRM has said that he has made mistake on eye color or hip size- what makes me think a slip of the independent past participle of the dependent clause present tense adjective conjunctivitis noun and pronoun is or isn't possible-

Even the mighty GRRM can err, especially in something as minutiaesque as the grammar being discussed

either way I don't think your a moron for bringing it up-

[JonStarkIII]

This is a great theory...I hope its true...would Rob be able to later warg into a person? So much could happen if he is indeed in a living GW.

[Lord Defiance]

If he's alive (if if if if if if if... I hope, but if...), he could be a "replacement" wolf for Sansa. The wolf who wasn't only his brother's but a King's.

We saw a head in the tv show, sure, but not in books. In books, people also claimed that Robb transformed into his direwolf.

So, who knows. I hope he's alive.

Let's say for a moment, that Grey Wind is in fact alive.

What if the rumors that "Robb transformed into his wolf" is really foreshadowing by George? To tell us that Grey Wind survived, and Robb warged into GW at the last minute?

Just a thought.

[Lord Defiance]

This is a great theory...I hope its true...would Rob be able to later warg into a person? So much could happen if he is indeed in a living GW.

No. It's said somewhere once you warg into an animal after your own body dies, you can't warg into another human. You slowly lose yourself and become the animal you are inside.

Basically Robb would be able to control himself for a time, but would eventually become just Grey Wind.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Let's say for a moment, that Grey Wind is in fact alive.

What if the rumors that "Robb transformed into his wolf" is really foreshadowing by George? To tell us that Grey Wind survived, and Robb warged into GW at the last minute?

Just a thought.

There is a small chance of that happening, yes, but it's very unlikely. Of course, it would be a bit sad for Robb to end up his life as a wolf until he dies. :/

[LordManderlyAsDragonRider]

"The dream he had... the dream Summer had had... if he never talked of it maybe he could forget he ever dreamed it, and then it wouldn't have happened and Robb and Grey Wind would still be..."

Bran, ASOS

To me, that is pretty solid evidence that Robb and Grey Wind are both dead.

[Kienn]

"The dream he had... the dream Summer had had... if he never talked of it maybe he could forget he ever dreamed it, and then it wouldn't have happened and Robb and Grey Wind would still be..."

Bran, ASOS

To me, that is pretty solid evidence that Robb and Grey Wind are both dead.

Except he doesn't tell us what ... is. And in Dance Bran still has hope.

[Robb_Warged]

This is the stuff that keeps me going in the story. I know ASOIAF is about many characters and houses and families. The Starks are who I'm partial to though and Robb's cause was my favorite fight. Robb is my fav character

I'm hoping your fangs will be able to aid the Stark's in the final two books Grey Wind!

I think it's extremely telling we never had a first-person account of Grey Wind's murder. The Frey's told people they threw a stripped cat into the river to mock Tully ritual. This was confirmed when Arya/Nymeria pulled Cat out of the water.

With the Robb/Grey Wind corpse, we never get that eye-witness confirmation that Grey Wind's head was cut off and placed on Robb. Arya and the Hound were right there. GRRM could have easily written a moment in where The Hound and/or Arya saw Robb being paraded around with Grey Wind's head sewn on. Or even an account of either of them watching Grey Wind being murdered could have been written. It wasn't though

I'll eat crow if I'm wrong, I just can't shake the feeling that Grey Wind/Robb in some context will be given a final moment in one of these final books to do something for the Stark family

[jon_stark_targaryen]

Jon DWD

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Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat’s long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister’s pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself.

“Snow,” the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained ... and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

“Snow,” the moon insisted.

The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above

the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf’s pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

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So even though he knows exactly where each of those 3 siblings are... you think one of them is the one he explicitly mentions he can't sense?

Yes, knowing where someone is and being able to sense someone are separate things....If ghost was able to sense summer then he would have described what summer was doing...in the end he says that he knows where summer was... maybe he was able to sense him to some distance and then lost the connection... now why he lost the connection... i dont know? but the way this part is written clearly supports my explanation...why is ghost mentioning summer separately and at the very end ?...because that is the brother he cannot sense...about the 6 and 4 thing...this is how i read that...he says they had been 6 at start instead of him and his 5 siblings...then he describes what they were doing at the start...5 at their mother's breast and him separately...then he says 4 remained...which feels like it ties to the 6 considering the way we write the language...so 2 are dead..no need to read ahead...2 are dead...then he says and one he no longer sensed...summer...

[Snarky]

Is it possible that Grey Wind met the same fate as Lady Stoneheart?? That would explain both his head being severed (but still re-animated) and Ghost's inability to sense him.

[Robb_Warged]

Is it possible that Grey Wind met the same fate as Lady Stoneheart?? That would explain both his head being severed (but still re-animated) and Ghost's inability to sense him.

The same fate meaning brought back from the dead? If it could be pulled off cleverly I'm all for Robb or Grey Wind surprising everyone with a return, but the account we were told and what the TV series showed, is that Grey Wind's head was cut off GW's body. So if Grey Wind's body was brought back to life like Lady Stoneheart, how would he get around with no head?

[Kienn]

The same fate meaning brought back from the dead? If it could be pulled off cleverly I'm all for Robb or Grey Wind surprising everyone with a return, but the account we were told and what the TV series showed, is that Grey Wind's head was cut off GW's body. So if Grey Wind's body was brought back to life like Lady Stoneheart, how would he get around with no head?

I assume Grey Wind will get around the same way Rakharo does with no head.

[DarkSister1001]

GRRM broke my heart at the RW and I'm still in mourning. I would love, LOVE, L O V E Robb's shade to be in GW and for GW to have escaped and to somehow survive. If he is with Raynald Westerling that would be even sweeter considering how the rest of his family betrayed Robb. There's a lot in the text that leaves it open to discussion, but I always took the "one he could no longer sense" to be Sansa. As in they lost their connection to her when Lady died.

[Taenqyrhae]

I think it's a lot more likely that the Frey's just took a wolf or direwolf trophy off of a wall somewhere in the Twins and sewed it on. It would be a lot easier since it would be much lighter and already prepared for being attached to something. The point is to mock him for being "The Young Wolf", not to somehow defile both him and his pet.

[Squab]

"Ghost knows that grey wind is dead" later in same chapter ffs. The "4" are ghost, summer, nymeria and shaggydog. Cant sense summer but knows where he is, as read from the text a lot of people quoted but not that many read.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

I think it's a lot more likely that the Frey's just took a wolf or direwolf trophy off of a wall somewhere in the Twins and sewed it on. It would be a lot easier since it would be much lighter and already prepared for being attached to something. The point is to mock him for being "The Young Wolf", not to somehow defile both him and his pet.

The point is to "defile both him and his pet". And why would the Freys even lie about this?

[Taenqyrhae]

The point is to "defile both him and his pet". And why would the Freys even lie about this?

Because sewing a 20-30+ pound head from a 500+ pound quadruped onto the body of a 150 pound human (who has a neck made for a 9 pound head) would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, and hardly worth the trouble. Maybe the point was not "to defile both him and his pet" but "to mock the Young Wolf and tell a good story about his direwolf that got away".

[Robb_Warged]

Let's say for a moment, that Grey Wind is in fact alive.

What if the rumors that "Robb transformed into his wolf" is really foreshadowing by George? To tell us that Grey Wind survived, and Robb warged into GW at the last minute?

Just a thought.

Please, please, please, please this

"Ghost knows that grey wind is dead" later in same chapter ffs. The "4" are ghost, summer, nymeria and shaggydog. Cant sense summer but knows where he is, as read from the text a lot of people quoted but not that many read.

I swear in that same chapter Jon says something similar about Bran and Rickon being definitively dead as well. And we know Bran and Rickon are alive

[Kienn]

"Ghost knows that grey wind is dead" later in same chapter ffs. The "4" are ghost, summer, nymeria and shaggydog. Cant sense summer but knows where he is, as read from the text a lot of people quoted but not that many read.

Jon thinks that Ghost knows that... because Jon is the stand-in for all the fans who "know nothing".

[Robb_Warged]

Jon thinks that Ghost knows that... because Jon is the stand-in for all the fans who "know nothing".

That's how I take it too. I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but in that same chapter, Jon discusses Bran and Rickon as if they are dead as wel