Fat Trell Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 It's not even that the siege didn't succeed. The point of a waiting siege is to end the situation non-violently and take everything (people included) intact. If he had succeeded at Storm's End, he would have had Stannis and Renly as -hostages-, which is an infinitely more advantageous thing. He could have treated them 'gently' as it were, and if Robert won, he could have returned them generously and won some real prizes out of the deal, and if Aerys won, he could present Robert's siblings to him on a silver platter. Both Robert and the Mad King were renown for generosity to those that served them well. And taking Storm's End intact, and Robert's kin along with it, would have given him an edge no matter who came out on top. As is, he simply kept away from having to go 'all-in' and risk the lives of his people. The taking of a castle isn't a controllable event though. Stannis wasn't very well known at this time, so we can imagine Mace thought him similar to his brother. His brother who was always in the thick of battle. Some overeager man-at-arms doesn't realize who he's fighting and strikes down Stannis, and Robert would have never forgiven the man who ordered the castle's taking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gneisenau Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 The taking of a castle isn't a controllable event though. Stannis wasn't very well known at this time, so we can imagine Mace thought him similar to his brother. His brother who was always in the thick of battle. Some overeager man-at arms doesn't realize who he's fighting and strikes down Stannis, and Robert would have never forgiven the man who ordered the castle's taking. All the more likely to actually take hostages rather than killing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Trell Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 All the more likely to actually take hostages rather than killing. Not if he doesn't know who he's fighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chillboy Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Mace Tyrell is the leader of one of the bigger houses in Westeros and has survived both RR and the war of the five kings so far, so he cannot be that stupid. He just is not as clever as Tywin Lannister or Roose Bolton. It's easy to forget people if they don't shine with their brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Besieging SE with his entire force just proves he is the Walder Frey of the Great Houses, minus the RW, in the sense as he is not truly loyal to any cause, he is just an opportunistic prick. If he was truly loyal to the Targaryens he would have sent a token force to besiege SE, and taken the rest of his force to pursue Robert. Imagine if Connington had arrived with a Tyrell army at his back, or Rhaegar had the Tyrell army at the Battle of the Trident. Mace wasn't looking out for his people, but number one. In supporting Renly just to queen his daughter, Mace risked setting a dangerous political precedent for Westeros. If the IT can be taken by anyone other than heir by male primogeniture, then all the lordships in Westeros are at risk as well as the crown. Olenna didn't kill Joffrey with mace's knowledge as he would likely refuse, and the fewer people know about the plot the easier it is to keep a secret. The most successful man alive? In TWoW, he will lose bannermen to Aegon, like his best commander, Tarly, for hogging all the credit at the Battle of Ashford as one. The alliance made also seems to be crumbling. What will happen when Tommen dies? Cersei may likely keep Margaery as a hostage to ensure HG's loyalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Shaggydog Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 I agree with the last poster, but I think its somewhat consistent wit the OP's premise. Mace isn't as stupid as people think, but he's not as smart as he apparently thinks he is. Just like Tywin and Roose Bolton, and Cersei. They are mostly too clever by half, and don't see the full end of their plans, and how some short term gains will ultimately unravel all those gains in the future. But in the game of thrones, you take when you can and can't necessarily worry about the long long term effects. But that is what leads to the downfall of a House, such as the Reynes, and then the Frey, Boltons, Lannisters and IMO the Tyrells. They climb high, but on unstable footing, and will eventually fall low again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Trell Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Besieging SE with his entire force just proves he is the Walder Frey of the Great Houses, minus the RW, in the sense as he is not truly loyal to any cause, he is just an opportunistic prick. If he was truly loyal to the Targaryens he would have sent a token force to besiege SE, and taken the rest of his force to pursue Robert. Imagine if Connington had arrived with a Tyrell army at his back, or Rhaegar had the Tyrell army at the Battle of the Trident. Mace wasn't looking out for his people, but number one. In supporting Renly just to queen his daughter, Mace risked setting a dangerous political precedent for Westeros. If the IT can be taken by anyone other than heir by male primogeniture, then all the lordships in Westeros are at risk as well as the crown. Olenna didn't kill Joffrey with mace's knowledge as he would likely refuse, and the fewer people know about the plot the easier it is to keep a secret. The most successful man alive, In TWoW, he will lose bannermen to Aegon, like his best commander, Tarly, for hogging all the credit at the Battle of Ashford as one. The alliance made also seems to be crumbling. What will happen when Tommen dies? Cersei may likely keep Margaery as a hostage to ensure HG's loyalty. Unlike Walder Frey, Mace did not actually sit out RR; he practically did so, but there is a difference between the two. Powerful uncles have been trying to take their weak/cruel/unlucky nephews birthrights for millennia. Renly is hardly the first or last man to do so. And it was Robert and Jon Arryn, not Renly and Mace Tyrell, who set the current system of "strongest army wins." We have no way to know if Mace knew about the Purple Wedding plot or not. By the end of the series, I imagine all of Tywin's accomplishments will be irrelevant. Does that make everything he did pointless? Does that make him an ineffective leader? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs.Grumpy Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 He is the best dad in the series. I also think that he is not that stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gneisenau Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 He is the best dad in the series. I also think that he is not that stupid. I agree. Non first sons and daughters tend to shafted, but Mace got his second son his own title with lands, brought Loras into KG where he could have been with Renly (had he lived), and made his daughter a Queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Shaggydog Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Well, we have to consider the whole Loras/Renly alliance to be purely coincidental out of all of the apparent accomplishments of Mace. If he was aware of both of their homosexuality, then this is a whole other level of game of throne playing that we haven't even considered. According the show, Oleanna knew ahead of time, but it is not alluded to that it was a factor in placing Loras with Renly, and then having Loras cultivate a relationship that leads to a shifting of a House loyalty. But I do agree he did well by his kids, and that is more than can be said for most of the other great lords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Monkey Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 In supporting Renly just to queen his daughter, Mace risked setting a dangerous political precedent for Westeros. If the IT can be taken by anyone other than heir by male primogeniture, then all the lordships in Westeros are at risk as well as the crown. I think that precedent has already been set, in rather grand fashion, during Robert's Rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Muradin the Small Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 I don't think much of the Tyrell scheming is a result of Mace being clever. Its more noted that his wife and mother do the thinking for him. And seeing his performance in the Small Council, its likely that he was advised to engage maximum men in the siege of SE by one of his more capable bannermen like Tarly...or maybe that's what Aerys had ordered. He was mad, afterall. Remember he was also almost convinced to marry off his heir to Cersei. He only declined after being chastised by his mother. His more qualified advisors are usually powerful bannermen, with whom he'd consult anyway. It isnt like that he saw how a lowborn smuggler could be crucial for his plans or something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Trell Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 I don't think much of the Tyrell scheming is a result of Mace being clever. Its more noted that his wife and mother do the thinking for him. And seeing his performance in the Small Council, its likely that he was advised to engage maximum men in the siege of SE by one of his more capable bannermen like Tarly...or maybe that's what Aerys had ordered. He was mad, afterall. Remember he was also almost convinced to marry off his heir to Cersei. He only declined after being chastised by his mother. His more qualified advisors are usually powerful bannermen, with whom he'd consult anyway. It isnt like that he saw how a lowborn smuggler could be crucial for his plans or something Its one thing to have capable men in your service. Its another to give them sufficient autonomy to act. Cersei has many capable people she could have brought into her fold during her time as regent. Instead she appoints yes men and incompetents so she can better control the realm. Robb has a few experienced commanders at his disposal, but he gives Roose Bolton, his most untrustworthy bannerman, half his army. Granting the right people the right amount of authority is the most important aspect of management. Even if you contend that everything the Tyrells have accomplishment during Mace's tenure is due to someone else(which is far too happenstance for me): you have to grant him that he, at least internally, recognizes his shortcomings and surrounds himself with others who can give him good counsel. And why would having Willas marry Cersei be such a bad move? It removes Cersei from King's Landing, Jaime, her powerbase, and her children. At this point in the story, Cersei's proven to be very dangerous. She also gives the Tyrells a valuable hostage if the alliance turns sour. Not to mention she has proven fertile. Maybe removing her from the equation would have made Joffrey, and later Tommen, more pliable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Olenna says that he's a full retard. So it must be so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Shaggydog Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Olenna says that he's a full retard. So it must be so. Or that he has "gone" full retard, which means he is acting. But his actual intelligence will likely be revealed later, since we still don't have any POVs inside the Tyrell camp, and we have no idea who is pulling the strings in that particular family. I agree that his overall decent success (mainly, staying alive, in power, and keeping his lands mostly free from the ravages of war), is too great to be just happenstance from some smart banner men and his mother. But more than likely his intelligent decision making has something larger to do with the machinations of Oldtown/the Citadel, which we have not yet fully seen. Lets not forget there is a Tyrell inserted into Oldtown overtly (and some Martels inserted covertly), so there is more power down there than we have yet been shown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Scorpion Knight Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 He's right, if not polite, in both those instances. Why send men into country they know nothing about to fight dying enemies? Lysa wasn't going to enter the war if Littlefinger didn't tell her to. What should have been done with her for her refusal to aid anyone during the Wot5K? Why start a conflict when there appears to be none? And Jon Connington has fought one battle in his whole life. He lost. The Golden Company has always lost as well. Its much better for the realm if the lion's share of Targaryen loyalists declare for a possible feigned boy than for them to wait and fight for the Targaryen on the other side of the world when she comes, especially if the stories of dragons are true. 1st part mace isright for the wrong reasons. 2nd kevan himself said jonC then was an green boy. now he is more expierienced and dangerous not to mention he Said nothing about cersei critical Fumble with the Iron bank Maybe that is Mace's strategy ? He acts like a fool so nobody feels threatened, and now Mace and the Tyrells are gobbling up council seats. the problem is mace and his families greed is visible to everybody.(even cersei) Besieging SE with his entire force just proves he is the Walder Frey of the Great Houses, minus the RW, in the sense as he is not truly loyal to any cause, he is just an opportunistic prick. If he was truly loyal to the Targaryens he would have sent a token force to besiege SE, and taken the rest of his force to pursue Robert. Imagine if Connington had arrived with a Tyrell army at his back, or Rhaegar had the Tyrell army at the Battle of the Trident. Mace wasn't looking out for his people, but number one. In supporting Renly just to queen his daughter, Mace risked setting a dangerous political precedent for Westeros. If the IT can be taken by anyone other than heir by male primogeniture, then all the lordships in Westeros are at risk as well as the crown. Olenna didn't kill Joffrey with mace's knowledge as he would likely refuse, and the fewer people know about the plot the easier it is to keep a secret. The most successful man alive, In TWoW, he will lose bannermen to Aegon, like his best commander, Tarly, for hogging all the credit at the Battle of Ashford as one. The alliance made also seems to be crumbling. What will happen when Tommen dies? Cersei may likely keep Margaery as a hostage to ensure HG's loyalty. agree (although i don't think cersei will be in charge in KL it IMHO the High sparrow) He is the best dad in the series. I also think that he is not that stupid. *cough* Willas Accident *cough* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Trell Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 1st part mace isright for the wrong reasons. 2nd kevan himself said jonC then was an green boy. now he is more expierienced and dangerous not to mention he Said nothing about cersei critical Fumble with the Iron bank the problem is mace and his families greed is visible to everybody.(even cersei) agree (although i don't think cersei will be in charge in KL it IMHO the High sparrow) *cough* Willas Accident *cough* How so? The Vale wanted to fight for Robb, Lysa made sure that didn't happen. Motives aside, she had done the crown a great service. And what could anyone, Tywin included have done to her? If youre referring to Mace's comment regarding Robb's course of action I don't see what you mean. Robb had to take back the North, and there was only one way north. Jon Connington is more experienced at being a sellsword now then he was during RR. He has been off the map for a long time when he shows up back at Griffin's Roost. Why should a few campaigns riding with the Golden Company a decade ago make him that much more of a danger? Nearly every lord in the 7 Kingdoms is greedy. They all grasp and beg for titles and positions. How long is the list of houses that aren't overtly greedy? By the same standard, is Ned a terrible father for never stopping Bran's climbing? Again, ASOIAF is a harsh world. Jousting is the foremost sport and Mace likely did encourage Willas to take part in that tourney before he was ready. It was a tragic, freak accident. To Mace's credit he has never sought to disinherit his crippled son, despite the fact that he has two very capable spares. Said spares are also accomplished jousters, which indicates Mace made sure they were more thoroughly trained before they took part. Mace has also set all his children up with good positions. No other father has placed his children as well as he has. All this in addition to his children all seeming like genuinely good people(at least as far as ASOIAF goes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Calthrop Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 OP has definitely changed my view of Mace a little bit. Also, wondering now if Olenna's not just a bit overrated. OR, if the whole bit with her bashing her son is just part of their family act - so people will consistently underestimate MT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Kevan Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 He can't actually doing great bad with the cards he got in hands. Everybody loves the Tyrell, the most powerfull house in the kingdom, with enough food, soldiers and territory to pass the winter. Mace, who never really influe on things, just jump from a winning side to another, without making a lot by himself to make victory happen. And then he want all the titles and glory for himself, as he want to be see as the winner of Ashford and be Hand of the king, both with a stunning lack of subtlety. Not surprising than the real leaders of the realm don't like him or respect him very much.I'm not fan of Olenna, and Mace have his good side as a human being, but still... he don't deserve to be at the head of such great family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 OP has definitely changed my view of Mace a little bit. Also, wondering now if Olenna's not just a bit overrated. OR, if the whole bit with her bashing her son is just part of their family act - so people will consistently underestimate MT. This. I love me some Olenna but Littlefinger played her like a fiddle. Regarding Mace, he's definetely not stupid. The siege of SE was a very clever move because it let Aerys know he was a loyalist but he wasn't taking part in risky battles. He puts his family first and it shows. At the end of the Rebellion, the Tyrells ended up with their lands and titles intact, their only loss being some cousin or something. That's more than the Targs or the Martells can say. The Renly thing would have worked if it hadn't been for the shadowbaby, which no one could have see coming. And Mace is not as dangerously ruthless like Tywin. He gave zero fucks about the North being independent, which I think is a point in his favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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