Heresy 109

[Jojen]

Adding fuel to the the MR=RT theory and how fire plays into the Song, prior to the Wildling attack on the Wall, Mance announces that he's going to light the biggest fire the north has ever seen. That doesn't make him a secret Targ (nor do I believe he is), but it could be another tangential connection with Red Rahloo. Maybe he only intended it to be a signal, but there may have also been the hope that a few crows would get caught in it (providing black blood).

[Modesty Lannister]

Back to the issue of fire. I have a small theory. The Kind Man tells us that slaves in Valyria had a "death wish", because they had nothing to live for. The same happens in Astapor. Dany tries to help a slave and he tells her he wishes to die. The Others are basically bringing "the gift of death" as much as Faceless Men are. By liberating slaves, Dany is bringing "the gift of life", so she is already fighting the Others, even without dragons. And that gift of life is spreading to areas beyond the Slaver's Bay, like Volantis where slaves by awaiting Dany's arrival abandoned their apathy and death wishes. And she is doing this instinctively, just like she did with dragon eggs. Yes, she had dreams to go by, but not everyone would poses the right instinct faced with such a monumental task like hatching dragons.

As for Red Priests and Priestesses, what they do I obvious black magic, a sword without a hilt that can bring a terrible backlash. Unlike green seers who see actual events as they happened/are happening/will happen, because the time is meaningless for weirwood trees, Red Priests have visions that depend on interpretation as we saw in the case of a girl on a horse running from a marriage. Therefore, whatever they do is unreliable. I actually think the great example is Thoros of Myr who basically said he didn't believe much in all this red mumbo-yumbo until suddenly he managed to bring Beric back to life with prayer. This ability coincides with the birth of Dany's dragons that somehow unleashed a new surge of magic to the world. So, at this stage, I see Red Priesthood as the opposite of Faceless Men. They bring "the gift of life" the same way FM bring "the gift of death". But, there must be some kind of equilibrium between the two, which leads me to believe they are either in some sort of cahoots or that one act by the Red Priests, requires FM to "retaliate" in a way. So, I do not think Red Priests are fire turned flesh. I think they try to imitate actions of someone who indeed has that ability. Also, I think there are various levels of that priesthood since Thoros and Mel are definitely not on the same level in these red ranks.

So, in conclusion I'd say that so far we can safely assume that forces on the side of fire are:

1. Dany

2. dragons

3. slaves

Whether Red Priests are indeed on that side remains to be seen. The same applies to "the blood of old Valyria". I have my doubts about that.

[The Puffin Has Three Heads]

Hello heretics!

I will begin with the standard disclaimer that I have not yet caught up on all the heresy threads...I started at the beginning and I'm halfway through 10, but I did a search and I don't think my idea is on here yet.

I will also apologize because this is an "ice" thing, not a "fire" one, but if this thread is for fire only perhaps I might propose this topic for the next go-around.

In the early threads it was proposed that the Starks might have some WW ancestry, and further proposed that Symeon Star-Eyes' flashy baby blues weren't really caused by sapphires in his empty eye sockets.

Keeping that in mind while considering how the NK and Craster allegedly give up their young ones to the Wight Walkers led me to the following idea about our friend the Weeper.

Perhaps the Weeper's penchant for removing eyeballs isn't just a cruel fetish. Mayhaps he's deliberately looking for people with WW ancestry, and if you remove their eyeballs, the empty sockets glow starry blue.

One of the mountain clansmen said the weeper not only steals their girls, but he blinds the ones he doesn't take. I think perhaps he blinded them first, but only took the ones with shiny blue eye sockets, and left behind the poor maimed rejects.

We know Mors Umbers daughter was taken by wildlings. We also know her [edit: father Mors] is missing an eye, but he either wears an eyepatch or fills the socket with dragonglass - which is quite dark. Would a false eye made of dragonglass cover up a starry blue glow? Could there be some WW ancestry among the Umbers which they are keeping quiet about, but which caused Mors' daughter to be selected?

It might not only be the Weeper who's been looking for such people to steal over the years, possibly to make up for the ones that were supposed to be officially handed over, but stopped when the new world order imposed itself on the north.

How's that for a heresy?

ETA: I just want to mention this has serious implications for Jon's story arc. Remember that fourth knife that Jon never felt? Remember how GRRM never said what damage that knife did?

Or did he?

ASOS

The smith released his grip on the bellows. "Your face . . ."

He had almost forgotten about his face. "A skinchanger tried to rip out my eye."

Janos Slynt had been shouting that, as a warg, Jon was a beastling that should not be allowed to live. Imagine what the reaction would/will be if Jon ends up with one dark grey human eye and one freaky starry blue Othery eye.

There are a load of references scattered throughout the books. That TWOW Theon preview chapter, which GRRM has said comes *before* Jon's last ADWD chapter, has three of them.

In an Emmy Panel, the one of the showrunners (Benioff, IIRC) commented on how you can be reading the books and be completely caught off guard by something, then when you go back, you realize GRRM had been dropping clues it was going to happen and you'd missed them all. He said they were trying to do something similar in the show, in keeping with the spirit of GRRM's writing.

Notice how, in the [edit: third] season, Vargo Hoat's equivalent, a northman named Locke, first menaced Jaime's eye with a knife just before slicing off Jaime's hand. That wasn't in the book. Methings the showrunners were dropping in a hint of things to come, a la GRRM.

[addicted to snow]

I suspect there may be a new shadow baby on the way.Aw bless!Could Mance be the daddy?

Devon is another candidate, If she has has not already been doing the 'reverse pile-driver' (aka 'the butter-churner', aka 'the Squat Thruster') with Devon, she soon will… So, we might see multiple shadows lurking around the wall… But, I definitely agree, Mance & Mel have definitely done the 'seated wheelbarrow' more than once.

Regarding the Chaos @ the wall, I expect to see Mel utilize her 'bag of finger bones' to glamour Devon as the King's Hand as a means of maintaining order & a bit of power at the wall...

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Great question. I never really noticed this before. Makes me wonder if it has to do with Maester Aemon's mysterious line "fire consumes, but ice preserves." Maybe this is the price she pays for her fire "gift"... her body is being consumed from the inside. Didn't she also mention how she can't birth another shadow baby for Stannis b/c it would kill him? So this fire magic clearly takes a toll on its practitioners. Maybe she's not old at all, but rather burning through her life at an accelerated rate and will be dead by the end of the series?

It would be a nice contrast to Bloodraven, who is being preserved up in the ice long past his natural lifespan, yet in a way has similar abilities to observe past, present and future.

I like this. Mel says she is old to an extent, but not really how old. The rest though, i like where you are going with the ice and fire.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Wow. I only through Aemon's name out as a joke, but you may be on to something. Like JNR said...scary implications indeed. I suppose it would be a fair statement that anything she births at the wall would be considerably more than what Davos saw.

True. Mel wants so badly to birth another shadow baby. Fire/shadow baby at the ice wall? What plans does she have for this! I think back to the creature breathing shadow fire and wonder...

[Mrs. Jon Snow]

Hello All,

First time poster, long time lurker (although anonymously because that's how I roll).

First off I laughed rather loud when I read this

Devon is another candidate, If she has has not already been doing the 'reverse pile-driver' (aka 'the butter-churner', aka 'the Squat Thruster') with Devon, she soon will… So, we might see multiple shadows lurking around the wall… But, I definitely agree, Mance & Mel have definitely done the 'seated wheelbarrow' more than once.

Regarding the Chaos @ the wall, I expect to see Mel utilize her 'bag of finger bones' to glamour Devon as the King's Hand as a means of maintaining order & a bit of power at the wall...

Second order of business is in regards to Mel's sexcapades. While I can definitely see Mel and Mance making the "Great Other with two backs" I don't see Davos being a part of her plan solely given his low birth. I was under the impression because of the whole "there is power in kings blood" that the shadow babies need a royal daddy so Mance is a good choice, especially AT the wall.

In the show Mel makes a pass at Davos while he is rowing her to Storm's End but IIRC that never happens in the book. What value is a producing a shadow if the bloodline is insignificant? If it is case that Mel needs a partner with kings blood in his veins what does this say about Jon's future? his lineage (well besides the whole R+L=J)?

Disclaimer: I know this has been discussed before but it seems fitting with the conversation.

ETA: Fixed Quotey thing

[redriver]

Mel used previous shadow babies to target specific victims.I wonder whom she has in mind for this one,if its true.Some person or persons at the Wall or is it an anti-WW measure?

[Aetta]

Yeah. I think they turned Mereen into Yunkai on the show specifically to make it less easy for show watchers to figure out Dany spends so much time in Mereen.

Good call.

[Eira Seren]

Great question. I never really noticed this before. Makes me wonder if it has to do with Maester Aemon's mysterious line "fire consumes, but ice preserves." Maybe this is the price she pays for her fire "gift"... her body is being consumed from the inside. Didn't she also mention how she can't birth another shadow baby for Stannis b/c it would kill him? So this fire magic clearly takes a toll on its practitioners. Maybe she's not old at all, but rather burning through her life at an accelerated rate and will be dead by the end of the series?

It would be a nice contrast to Bloodraven, who is being preserved up in the ice long past his natural lifespan, yet in a way has similar abilities to observe past, present and future.

This is a nice contrast between Bloodraven and Mel. I wonder about Dany, too; is there a danger of being consumed with the dragonbond, or with proximity to dragons (she mentions feeling extremely overheated when riding drogon). She isn't necessarily practicing magic in the way that Mel is, is she?

There's the dragon horn that blisters the lips of the man who sounds it and burns him up and kills him.

Targaryens are prone to insanity; is there a connection between their magical bond with dragons? Does it consume them (only why only some, and why others who have no dragons?)

Also Bran, who risks becoming too much like Summer (or too much Summer) if he wargs for too long, could maybe get consumed.

[addicted to snow]

Mel used previous shadow babies to target specific victims.I wonder whom she has in mind for this one,if its true.Some person or persons at the Wall or is it an anti-WW measure?

I wonder if Mance has a shadow-baby in his pocket that Mel gave him to take to Winterfell… It makes sense that Mel would want to weaken the Boltons in any way she can before Stannis & his forces face them at Winterfell.

Mel certainly seems to have a lot of tricks up her sleeve that she is just sitting on:

• Possibly multiple Shadow-Babies

A Glamoured King's Hand

A Glamoured Janos Slynt

A Glamoured Yegrette (possibly already used)

Justin Massey is currently in route to Castle Black with a parchment that Stannis signed in blood (providing Mel with King's Blood). Also note that the Series has twice advised the reader that blood makes for a terrible writing medium (because it does not adhere well to the paper which limits the longevity of the signature / writing / whatever).

Some think that she will play a part in bringing Jon Snow's body back to life

Mel has built up quite a few tools to deal with chaos that is no doubt unfolding at the wall, &/or possibly further influence the events at Winterfell.

[addicted to snow]

Also Bran, who risks becoming too much like Summer (or too much Summer) if he wargs for too long, could maybe get consumed.

I think that Jon is the character who is most in danger of becoming consumed or partially consumed by Ghost.

[addicted to snow]

I am not saying your wrong addicted to snow but I can only remember two character's whose blood is described as black and that actually end up dead -- Craster and Yoren. Ygritte says Craster's blood is black (meaning he is part Nightswatchman) and Yoren says his and Benjen's blood are black, again referring to them both being NW brothers. Benjin is MIA so we don't know if he's dead or not.

Victarion is not dead however. Just his arm is crispy crittered. Mel on the other hand...

Why the hell does she bleed when she has a vision anyway? What is that about? It makes me think that each time she looks into the fire and gets a vision she dies just a bit more. Dying by inches kind of thing. Or like there is a quid pro quo going on, you see something to pay by internal wound(s).

GRRM has described literally dozens of characters as having black blood… Dozens...

I believe that Victarion is dead… Morroqo told him; "Your death is here, with us, tonight…" (not an exact quote, punctuation is likely off)...

[addicted to snow]

I don't think Benjen surviving would make Rickon obsolete though, b/c like Jon, when he took the black he gave up holding lands or titles... so he can't be Lord of Winterfell any more than Jon can. And I think (correct me if I'm wrong) in the line of succession, Rickon (as Ned's son) would come before Benjen anyway, assuming he's alive... just as Joffrey came before Stannis and Renly.

Good points...

[Lord Martin Sheol]

Targaryens are prone to insanity; is there a connection between their magical bond with dragons? Does it consume them (only why only some, and why others who have no dragons?)

This doesn't have that much to do with the Fire aspect, it's just a risk of weak genes, given their traditional incestuous marriages. It keeps the bloodline "pure" but genetically speaking, it weakens that blood. Haven't you notices how pure bred dogs are so great at certain traits but are prone to several race specific diseases?

[Urrax2]

...In the show Mel makes a pass at Davos while he is rowing her to Storm's End but IIRC that never happens in the book. ...

In the book Mel raised the matter with Davos when he was imprisoned.

[Urrax2]

Devon is another candidate, If she has has not already been doing the 'reverse pile-driver' (aka 'the butter-churner', aka 'the Squat Thruster') with Devon, she soon will… So, we might see multiple shadows lurking around the wall… But, I definitely agree, Mance & Mel have definitely done the 'seated wheelbarrow' more than once.

Regarding the Chaos @ the wall, I expect to see Mel utilize her 'bag of finger bones' to glamour Devon as the King's Hand as a means of maintaining order & a bit of power at the wall...

Who is Devon? Do you mean Davos?

[Melifeather]

Hello heretics!

I will begin with the standard disclaimer that I have not yet caught up on all the heresy threads...I started at the beginning and I'm halfway through 10, but I did a search and I don't think my idea is on here yet.

I will also apologize because this is an "ice" thing, not a "fire" one, but if this thread is for fire only perhaps I might propose this topic for the next go-around.

In the early threads it was proposed that the Starks might have some WW ancestry, and further proposed that Symeon Star-Eyes' flashy baby blues weren't really caused by sapphires in his empty eye sockets.

Keeping that in mind while considering how the NK and Craster allegedly give up their young ones to the Wight Walkers led me to the following idea about our friend the Weeper.

Perhaps the Weeper's penchant for removing eyeballs isn't just a cruel fetish. Mayhaps he's deliberately looking for people with WW ancestry, and if you remove their eyeballs, the empty sockets glow starry blue.

One of the mountain clansmen said the weeper not only steals their girls, but he blinds the ones he doesn't take. I think perhaps he blinded them first, but only took the ones with shiny blue eye sockets, and left behind the poor maimed rejects.

We know Mors Umbers daughter was taken by wildlings. We also know her uncle Hothor is missing an eye, but he either wears an eyepatch or fills the socket with dragonglass - which is quite dark. Would a false eye made of dragonglass cover up a starry blue glow? Could there be some WW ancestry among the Umbers which they are keeping quiet about, but which caused Mors' daughter to be selected?

It might not only be the Weeper who's been looking for such people to steal over the years, possibly to make up for the ones that were supposed to be officially handed over, but stopped when the new world order imposed itself on the north.

How's that for a heresy?

ETA: I just want to mention this has serious implications for Jon's story arc. Remember that fourth knife that Jon never felt? Remember how GRRM never said what damage that knife did?

Or did he?

ASOS

The smith released his grip on the bellows. "Your face . . ."

He had almost forgotten about his face. "A skinchanger tried to rip out my eye."

Janos Slynt had been shouting that, as a warg, Jon was a beastling that should not be allowed to live. Imagine what the reaction would/will be if Jon ends up with one dark grey human eye and one freaky starry blue Othery eye.

There are a load of references scattered throughout the books. That TWOW Theon preview chapter, which GRRM has said comes *before* Jon's last ADWD chapter, has three of them.

In an Emmy Panel, the one of the showrunners (Benioff, IIRC) commented on how you can be reading the books and be completely caught off guard by something, then when you go back, you realize GRRM had been dropping clues it was going to happen and you'd missed them all. He said they were trying to do something similar in the show, in keeping with the spirit of GRRM's writing.

Notice how, in the second season, Vargo Hoat's equivalent, a northman named Locke, first menaced Jaime's eye with a knife just before slicing off Jaime's hand. That wasn't in the book. Methings the showrunners were dropping in a hint of things to come, a la GRRM.

At the risk of derailing the current topic, I'll try to keep this short. I'd like to encourage you to gather your evidence and present to either Tyryan or Mace as an guest OP. I think you've got something here, and some of us have suspected what you've presented....somewhat. I have posited more than once that we should pay attention to the use of iron as a ward against the Starks. I believe Coldhands is an example of what happens when Starks die. Your theory pokes some holes (pun intended) in mine because Coldhands eyes aren't blue, but is it possible that the blue remains concealed unless the eyes are removed?

Cemeteries are traditionally surrounded with iron fencing to keep spirits in. The King in the North crown is a bronze circlet surrounded by iron swords. The crypts have iron swords. If Starks have White Walker ancestry then the dead will rise.

[Jojen]

Back to the issue of fire. I have a small theory. The Kind Man tells us that slaves in Valyria had a "death wish", because they had nothing to live for. The same happens in Astapor. Dany tries to help a slave and he tells her he wishes to die. The Others are basically bringing "the gift of death" as much as Faceless Men are. By liberating slaves, Dany is bringing "the gift of life", so she is already fighting the Others, even without dragons. And that gift of life is spreading to areas beyond the Slaver's Bay, like Volantis where slaves by awaiting Dany's arrival abandoned their apathy and death wishes. And she is doing this instinctively, just like she did with dragon eggs. Yes, she had dreams to go by, but not everyone would poses the right instinct faced with such a monumental task like hatching dragons.

As for Red Priests and Priestesses, what they do I obvious black magic, a sword without a hilt that can bring a terrible backlash. Unlike green seers who see actual events as they happened/are happening/will happen, because the time is meaningless for weirwood trees, Red Priests have visions that depend on interpretation as we saw in the case of a girl on a horse running from a marriage. Therefore, whatever they do is unreliable. I actually think the great example is Thoros of Myr who basically said he didn't believe much in all this red mumbo-yumbo until suddenly he managed to bring Beric back to life with prayer. This ability coincides with the birth of Dany's dragons that somehow unleashed a new surge of magic to the world. So, at this stage, I see Red Priesthood as the opposite of Faceless Men. They bring "the gift of life" the same way FM bring "the gift of death". But, there must be some kind of equilibrium between the two, which leads me to believe they are either in some sort of cahoots or that one act by the Red Priests, requires FM to "retaliate" in a way. So, I do not think Red Priests are fire turned flesh. I think they try to imitate actions of someone who indeed has that ability. Also, I think there are various levels of that priesthood since Thoros and Mel are definitely not on the same level in these red ranks.

So, in conclusion I'd say that so far we can safely assume that forces on the side of fire are:

1. Dany

2. dragons

3. slaves

Whether Red Priests are indeed on that side remains to be seen. The same applies to "the blood of old Valyria". I have my doubts about that.

One could make the argument that ice, in its capacity to preserve, represents the status quo, while fire, which consumes, represents change. So anyone who wants to bring change, either to their personal situation or to the world at large, could be said to generally be on the side of fire.

But just as everyone has the capacity for both good and evil, as one's circumstances change, so to do their alliances. A slave in chains, seeking change, would be an agent of fire. A freed slave sitting on a throne wouldn't want anything to change that, so they'd act more like an agent of ice.

There are exceptions. The NW has a vested interest in keeping the status quo, so it's basically an agent of ice. Someone like LF, as an advocate of chaos, LF is an agent of fire. But since he's unlikely to ever be satisfied no matter how high he rises and how much power and influence he wields, would remain on the side of fire.

Also Bran, who risks becoming too much like Summer (or too much Summer) if he wargs for too long, could maybe get consumed.

I find it interesting that Bran, whose ancestors were the Kings of Winter, chose to name his direwolf "Summer," as if he's trying to turn the Starks away from their heritage.

[Modesty Lannister]

One could make the argument that ice, in its capacity to preserve, represents the status quo, while fire, which consumes, represents change. So anyone who wants to bring change, either to their personal situation or to the world at large, could be said to generally be on the side of fire.

But just as everyone has the capacity for both good and evil, as one's circumstances change, so to do their alliances. A slave in chains, seeking change, would be an agent of fire. A freed slave sitting on a throne wouldn't want anything to change that, so they'd act more like an agent of ice.

There are exceptions. The NW has a vested interest in keeping the status quo, so it's basically an agent of ice. Someone like LF, as an advocate of chaos, LF is an agent of fire. But since he's unlikely to ever be satisfied no matter how high he rises and how much power and influence he wields, would remain on the side of fire.

I find it interesting that Bran, whose ancestors were the Kings of Winter, chose to name his direwolf "Summer," as if he's trying to turn the Starks away from their heritage.

Very good argument. Since this ASOIAF do you think that the end must bring some kind of balance between the two elements?