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Brotherhood without banners/Lady Stoneheart


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#1 Alexei

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 01:20 AM

There is one thing i don't understand. Why would BWD follow Stoneheart's orders? There were all about protecting the common people and honor while under Beric, and now all they do is hang people. Again, why would they follow her and not just say: "fuck you, we're off to do our own thing"?



#2 Minstral

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 01:24 AM

There is one thing i don't understand. Why would BWD follow Stoneheart's orders? There were all about protecting the common people and honor while under Beric, and now all they do is hang people. Again, why would they follow her and not just say: "fuck you, we're off to do our own thing"?

 

Many don't and they leave as per what Thoros tells Brienne. Thoros himself did not want to lead so he gave her command, and the rest stayed.



#3 LordStoneheart

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 01:24 AM

Because they were never truly the golden heroes they thought themselves to be.

 

Think about when we first met them. They were kidnapping a highborn girl who had just been through the war-torn riverlands. They were ransoming her. They gave unfair trials, first demonizing Sandor for his brother's crimes, then letting him go because of the farce that is trial by combat even though he did not deny but rather confessed to killing Mycah. plus, a lot of them were Stark sympathizers and even though both sides were rather awful, the Wolves were not as bad as the Lions in that war.

 

the current members are probably still bloodthirsty and looking to kill Lions, Boltons, and Freys, and are happy to help Catelyn.


Edited by LordStoneheart, 21 May 2014 - 01:26 AM.


#4 Teren_Kanan

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 02:00 AM

I'm sure there are many reasons, plenty of "broken men" in that group.

 

But I'd also assume that under Thoros, plenty of them follow R'hllor, and were made even deeper believers by seeing Beric revived.. now Beric's flame is in Stoneheart. Will of the gods (God) and such.



#5 Mad Monkey

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 02:08 AM

Also, Stoneheart offers PTO and full medical and dental. Even the Golden Company doesn't provide as many benefits.

#6 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 02:26 AM

99.999% of all the members of the BWB have been loyal to the Tullys or the Starks all their lives. They are mostly Riverlands soldiers or smallfolk, with the core group being Beric's command against Gregor, which was sent out by Ned Stark and included a bunch of his own household guards.

Lady Stoneheart is Lady Stark nee Tully.

 

Furthermore, the Starks were better than the Lannisters almost all the time, the atrocities being committed limited mostly to Karstarks and Boltons. With the Boltons responsible for the RW and the Karstarks cut loose entirely, these atrocities aren't attributed to the wolves anymore.

 

Finally, the Red Wedding established who the bad guys where. It even makes Lady Stoneheart a divine leader. She appears as the Curse of the Red Wedding, sent by the gods to punish the perpetrators.

 

 

By the way, you are flat-out mistaken abou:

There were all about protecting the common people and honor while under Beric, and now all they do is hang people.

They do protect the common people more extensively than ever. Beric never established orphanages and only to a very limited extent punished criminals. Our impression as readers is skewed there. From Arya being sympathethic to the BWB, we switched to the PoV of Merrett Frey and Brienne, who were hanged by the BWB. Objectively watched, it was more than justified in either case. But the PoV structure does influence us readers emotionally.



#7 LordStoneheart

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 02:55 AM

Also, Catelyn was able to garner the men at the Crossroads Inn to help her arrest Tyrion and take him to justice. I imagine she still has some of this kind of authoritative presence.



#8 the norry

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 03:07 AM

99.999% of all the members of the BWB have been loyal to the Tullys or the Starks all their lives. They are mostly Riverlands soldiers or smallfolk, with the core group being Beric's command against Gregor, which was sent out by Ned Stark and included a bunch of his own household guards.
Lady Stoneheart is Lady Stark nee Tully.
 
Furthermore, the Starks were better than the Lannisters almost all the time, the atrocities being committed limited mostly to Karstarks and Boltons. With the Boltons responsible for the RW and the Karstarks cut loose entirely, these atrocities aren't attributed to the wolves anymore.
 
Finally, the Red Wedding established who the bad guys where. It even makes Lady Stoneheart a divine leader. She appears as the Curse of the Red Wedding, sent by the gods to punish the perpetrators.
 
 
By the way, you are flat-out mistaken abou:
They do protect the common people more extensively than ever. Beric never established orphanages and only to a very limited extent punished criminals. Our impression as readers is skewed there. From Arya being sympathethic to the BWB, we switched to the PoV of Merrett Frey and Brienne, who were hanged by the BWB. Objectively watched, it was more than justified in either case. But the PoV structure does influence us readers emotionally.

Pretty much this.

#9 clawson24

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 03:40 AM

99.999% of all the members of the BWB have been loyal to the Tullys or the Starks all their lives. They are mostly Riverlands soldiers or smallfolk, with the core group being Beric's command against Gregor, which was sent out by Ned Stark and included a bunch of his own household guards.

Lady Stoneheart is Lady Stark nee Tully.

 

Furthermore, the Starks were better than the Lannisters almost all the time, the atrocities being committed limited mostly to Karstarks and Boltons. With the Boltons responsible for the RW and the Karstarks cut loose entirely, these atrocities aren't attributed to the wolves anymore.

 

Finally, the Red Wedding established who the bad guys where. It even makes Lady Stoneheart a divine leader. She appears as the Curse of the Red Wedding, sent by the gods to punish the perpetrators.

 

 

By the way, you are flat-out mistaken abou:

They do protect the common people more extensively than ever. Beric never established orphanages and only to a very limited extent punished criminals. Our impression as readers is skewed there. From Arya being sympathethic to the BWB, we switched to the PoV of Merrett Frey and Brienne, who were hanged by the BWB. Objectively watched, it was more than justified in either case. But the PoV structure does influence us readers emotionally.

 

Well stated.

 

Really just seems to be a combination of:

 

-Beric giving his life for her points to her as the leader in both a rather literal and spiritual sense

-Many were Stark/Tully supporters to begin with,

-The one's that remain with her (Lem, Jack be Lucky) seem to quite enjoy the hanging and vengeance

-Lack of a better place to go.



#10 spunken en eggs

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 05:01 AM

also, she is a mad zombie woman, could be a bit intimidating. 

 

not like baric who heals all the time. no, just walking around all cut up en maimed.

 

i would make a plan on how to get to essos before leaving her.

 

din't like here when she was alive, now she's the perfect wife for ser Cregor. 



#11 Octavio Malibaires

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 05:36 AM

It's not like they can stop being bandits.

 

But I disagree with the "distorted reader perspective" stated above, at least partially. The trial against Brienne is still a farce, and very rushed. Catelyn was never an extremely reasonable woman (especially when her family is concerned), but having a semirotten brain has to explain at least in part why she hates Brienne all of a sudden now, not letting her make her case and explain she is: looking for the girls & wielding what remains of the Stark heirloom as a sword. Also, LS casually forgets that it was her (or rather, her former self) who trusted Jaime, so it should not be Brienne's fault that Jaime did not fulfill his promise.



#12 LordStoneheart

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 05:39 AM

Catelyn has every reason to distrust Brienne. Everything about her looks guilty, which makes her trial a lot better than the one we saw Beric give Sandor. Catelyn doesn't forget about the oath, which is why she names Brienne False Friend and Oathbreaker. But if you remember, one of the last things she sees in her former life was "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" before her world ended. She has no reason to think Jaime kept his oath nor Brienne.



#13 jon stark I

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 05:42 AM

I still don't understand why people cosider what LS does a bad thing.I think the main reason for most readers thinking LS as a bad person or unjust is because of she being a undead zombie.But if we look behind all that zombie thing what she is doing is actually very just.She punishes those who broke a holy law and she also punishes and kills all those who harm the smallfolk too.And about her judgement system, it is pretty solid if you are Frey soldier then you took part in RW, if you resented RW you would give up Frey sigil, if you are a Lannister you probably burned their crops and raped their families also Lannisters were in RW plan too, if you are a Bolton you betrayed your king and broke the guest right it is pretty simple.

Brienne situation is the same.She comes with a valyrian sword that is so rare Lords would sell their daughters to Tywin but not them, and this sword is given to her by Kingslayer also it is an interesting thing that LS last heard "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" before she saw his son die.And then there is the signed royal paper that says Brienne is doing Lannister work.Also there is Podrick payne who was Imps servant and now he serves Brienne and Pod confesses that he fought and killed under Lannister banner.Even with this much evidince LS gives her a second chance and asks to bring Kingslayer back but she refuses.Anyone would hang them after all that.



#14 spunken en eggs

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 05:44 AM

It's not like they can stop being bandits.

 

But I disagree with the "distorted reader perspective" stated above, at least partially. The trial against Brienne is still a farce, and very rushed. Catelyn was never an extremely reasonable woman (especially when her family is concerned), but having a semirotten brain has to explain at least in part why she hates Brienne all of a sudden now, not letting her make her case and explain she is: looking for the girls & wielding what remains of the Stark heirloom as a sword. Also, LS casually forgets that it was her (or rather, her former self) who trusted Jaime, so it should not be Brienne's fault that Jaime did not fulfill his promise.

 

Distorded? what did i get wrong ( not liking here?) u agree she has a rotten brain (zombie) or about making the plan to leave ? ( westeros is such a great place atm)  or are u so brave u wont be intimedated by some on like her ( read her disciption again if so). is it the marry'ing? i agree not likely but u think they will find some on els? 



#15 spunken en eggs

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 05:56 AM

 

I still don't understand why people cosider what LS does a bad thing.I think the main reason for most readers thinking LS as a bad person or unjust is because of she being a undead zombie.But if we look behind all that zombie thing what she is doing is actually very just.She punishes those who broke a holy law and she also punishes and kills all those who harm the smallfolk too.And about her judgement system, it is pretty solid if you are Frey soldier then you took part in RW, if you resented RW you would give up Frey sigil, if you are a Lannister you probably burned their crops and raped their families also Lannisters were in RW plan too, if you are a Bolton you betrayed your king and broke the guest right it is pretty simple.

Brienne situation is the same.She comes with a valyrian sword that is so rare Lords would sell their daughters to Tywin but not them, and this sword is given to her by Kingslayer also it is an interesting thing that LS last heard "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" before she saw his son die.And then there is the signed royal paper that says Brienne is doing Lannister work.Also there is Podrick payne who was Imps servant and now he serves Brienne and Pod confesses that he fought and killed under Lannister banner.Even with this much evidince LS gives her a second chance and asks to bring Kingslayer back but she refuses.Anyone would hang them after all that.

 

she has good reasoning, just like any sirial killer, but to punish those who wronged here se does the same evil en even worse deed's, so she is not in here write to seek these sorts of revenge. en even before death she had no reason/write to arrest the imp or free jaimy. sins this is what kill'd her son en his man, she should be a shameful little zombie. 

en why doesn't r'ellor heal her? like baric en vic, why leave here a ruined mess? maybe she deserves it. 

or maby she is like coldhands instead of baric, would explain the staying dead part. 



#16 LordStoneheart

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 05:58 AM

I'd respond the many wrong points in the above posts if I could read it.



#17 The hairy bear

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 05:59 AM

But I disagree with the "distorted reader perspective" stated above, at least partially. The trial against Brienne is still a farce, and very rushed. Catelyn was never an extremely reasonable woman (especially when her family is concerned), but having a semirotten brain has to explain at least in part why she hates Brienne all of a sudden now, not letting her make her case and explain she is: looking for the girls & wielding what remains of the Stark heirloom as a sword. Also, LS casually forgets that it was her (or rather, her former self) who trusted Jaime, so it should not be Brienne's fault that Jaime did not fulfill his promise.

  • UnCat knows that Bolton and Jaime were together at Harrenhal before the Red Wedding, and knows that Roose said "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" before killing Robb. He has every reason to assume Jaime is the mastermind behind the Red Wedding.
  • UnCat knows that the ancient Stark sword has been outrageously melted, and Brienne is wearing one of the two swords that have been made out of it. This is a reward that you only give to someone who has given you great service.
  • Brienne is traveling with a document signed by the enemy king Tommen giving her safe passage through the entire realm.
  • Brienne is traveling with a Lannister and a Tyrell bannermen, both supporting the enemy king.

With these evidence, even a modern jury would conclude that Brienne is collaborating with the Lannister king to find the Stark girls.



#18 jon stark I

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 06:03 AM

she has good reasoning, just like any sirial killer, but to punish those who wronged here se does the same evil en even worse deed's, so she is not in here write to seek these sorts of revenge. en even before death she had no reason/write to arrest the imp or free jaimy. sins this is what kill'd her son en his man, she should be a shameful little zombie. 

en why doesn't r'ellor heal her? like baric en vic, why leave here a ruined mess? maybe she deserves it. 

or maby she is like coldhands instead of baric, would explain the staying dead part. 

I didn't get any of that sorry.I can't decide which word is see and which one is she.

But to compare her with a serial killer and the likes of Lannisters is going a little too far.Did she order her men to go and raid Westernlands, did she order rape, torture?

Red god doesn't heal someone they are resurrected.Beric had all his death wounds and if I am not mistaken he was rotting a little.She was a ruined mess when they found her Freys cut open her throat then they threw her to the river NAKED.

I don't really understand your understanding of evil here.She hangs Freys the same guys who sewed his sons body to his direwolves head.I didn't see her doing that all she does is hanging criminals.

WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE HER DO?



#19 Shpati

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 06:04 AM

So Beric gave his "powers" to Lady Stoneheart because he believed in her and wanted her to get her vengence?

 

Also, who left the BwB after LS was appointed the new leader?

 

 

 

Yea, like most said, I see why the BwB follows LS now. RW showed who were the real bad guys. The Freys are supposed to be the new wardens of the Riverlands, but I seriously doubt they are doing anything to help the smallfolk there. And like stated before, after that war, it showed that the Boltons and Karstarks were probably the "Wolves" doing the bad things, not the Starks and Tullys. 



#20 Shpati

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 06:07 AM

I didn't get any of that sorry.I can't decide which word is see and which one is she.

But to compare her with a serial killer and the likes of Lannisters is going a little too far.Did she order her men to go and raid Westernlands, did she order rape, torture?

Red god doesn't heal someone they are resurrected.Beric had all his death wounds and if I am not mistaken he was rotting a little.She was a ruined mess when they found her Freys cut open her throat then they threw her to the river NAKED.

I don't really understand your understanding of evil here.She hangs Freys the same guys who sewed his sons body to his direwolves head.I didn't see her doing that all she does is hanging criminals.

WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE HER DO?

Word. With all the evidence she has, I see why she is doing what she is doing. 


Edited by Shpati, 21 May 2014 - 06:12 AM.