Heresy 119

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 119, this week’s edition of the thread that takes a sideways look what’s really going in the Song of Ice and Fire.

Heresy started off over by questioning popular assumptions that the Wall and the Nights Watch were created to keep the Others at bay - and that the story is going to end with Jon Snow identified as the lost Targaryen heir and Azor Ahai. We still have our doubts about some of this – if the white walkers are Craster’s sons they’re clearly not an invading army - but in general terms Heresy has expanded to encompass the whole business of Ice and Fire, in an effort to understand the conflict as a whole.

Nevertheless we still largely concentrate on the Wall and what lies beyond, and the Stark connection to Winter. We can also claim to know more than anybody else on the board about the Others/white walkers and warging/skinchanging.

Beyond the belief that things are not as they seem, there is no such thing as an accepted heretic view on a particular topic, and the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics. Rather heresy is about trying to figure out what’s really going on, based on clues in the text itself, and in identifying GRRM’s own sources and inspirations, ranging from Celtic and Norse mythology such as the Cu Chulainn cycle and the Mabinogion all the way through to Narnia and the original Land of Always Winter.

At first sight, stepping into our world might at first appear confusing, but we are engaged in an exercise in chaos theory. While most threads concentrate on a particular issue, we range pretty widely and more or less in free-fall, to try and reach an understanding of what may be happening through the resulting collision of ideas.

In the run-up to HERESY 100 Mace Cooterian very kindly organised a Centennial Seven project, looking at seven major topics in Heresy, featuring a specially commissioned introductory essay followed by a whole thread concentrating on that one topic. A link to Heresy 100 follows, in which will be found updated essays on the Seven, with a bonus essay on the Crows: http://asoiaf.wester...138-heresy-100/. Links are also provided at the end of each essay to the relevant discussions, and for those made of sterner stuff we also have a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy.

Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy. It has been running for over two years now but we’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask.

Otherwise, all that we do ask of you as ever is that you observe the house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[Black Crow]

As promised, I have a challenge for Heresy 120.

As you'll have noticed I've been steadily working up a global theory on this business; namely that it is the three-fingered tree-huggers who are behind the Long Night and the raising of the Wall; and that they are responsible for the changelings, ie; the white walkers: that the 13 Heroes set out to find the Singers not to enlist their aid against the white walkers but to cry Pax, and that the price of that peace saw the Starks linked to Winter; that the Stark [brandon or Sherrit?] on the Wall and his 12 companions were there not to defend it but to guard the Black Gate, until the Stark in Winterfell overthrew him and initiated the building of castles along the Wall after the Singers fled beyond it. Now down in the forest something is stirring and it will be the old Stark connection to Winter which will resolve the struggle rather than Dany's amazing dragons - let alone Azor Ahai.

Now the point is not to discuss this theory either in whole or in part, but to offer an alternative global theory of what's really going on, based on text and SSM, and to set it out in an essay form to be published as part of the OP for Heresy 120.

Any takers?

[Voice]

Cool. I like the idea of tossing around multiple Theories of Everything and finding what sticks. Do we have a topic to guide discussion for 119, or is it just the challenge for 120?

[TheButcherCrow]

I'll pass on the essay task BC, I actually don't have any decent theories beyond, "the singers seem pretty dodgy" :)

On to the point of my post. We had been discussing Others vs Wights vs White Walkers (in terms of names, not a theoretical fight) and a few people were saying that the term "white walkers" is only used by Mormont and Old Nan. This is not true. An additional SIX characters use the phrase in 3 out of 5 of the books. Here are the quotes:

“Mance be damned,” the big man cursed. “You want to go back there, Osha? More fool you. Think the white walkers will care if you have a hostage?”

Hali - AGOT

Mance thinks he’ll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he’s still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower. He’s never tasted winter. I was born up there, child, like my mother and her mother before her and her mother before her, born of the Free Folk. We remember.”

Osha - AGOT

The horn blew thrice long, three long blasts means Others. The white walkers of the wood, the cold shadows, the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy, riding their giant ice-spiders, hungry for blood…

Samwell - ASOS

Tell them, Sam... tell them how it is upon the Wall... the wights and the white walkers, the creeping cold...

Aemon - AFFC

“The white walkers go lightly on the snow,” the ranger said. “You’ll find no prints to mark their passage.”

Coldhands - ADWD

You know what’s coming down on us. Some of you have faced them before. Wights and white walkers, dead things with blue eyes and black hands. I’ve seen them too, fought them, sent one to hell.

Jon - ADWD

“Winter is coming,” Jon said at last, breaking the awkward silence, “and with it the white walkers. The Wall is where we stop them. The Wall was made to stop them … but the Wall must be manned.

Jon - ADWD

Anyway, hope that clears up some arguments (& starts a few new ones ;) ) Some good stuff in those quotes, I particularly like Osha pointing out her matrilineal line and when she says, "like the white walkers were no more than rangers". Have at it good heretics.

[Lykos]

Hi guys, still thriving I see. :)

I´ve just watched a very cute animated film, called "The secret of Kells", and thought of you.

Trailer

[Eira Seren]

Just popping in to mention that when I saw the treeline burning on last night's episode, it made me think about those shadows in the woods always watching and harrying the wildlings. Surely there are plenty of reasons for starting the fire, but one might have been to protect their flank while attacking Castle Black.

[wolfmaid7]

I'll pass on the essay task BC, I actually don't have any decent theories beyond, "the singers seem pretty dodgy" :)

On to the point of my post. We had been discussing Others vs Wights vs White Walkers (in terms of names, not a theoretical fight) and a few people were saying that the term "white walkers" is only used by Mormont and Old Nan. This is not true. An additional SIX characters use the phrase in 3 out of 5 of the books. Here are the quotes:

Anyway, hope that clears up some arguments (& starts a few new ones ;) ) Some good stuff in those quotes, I particularly like Osha pointing out her matrilineal line and when she says, "like the white walkers were no more than rangers". Have at it good heretics.

Actually it does, I forgot about those, thanks Butcher.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

As promised, I have a challenge for Heresy 120.

As you'll have noticed I've been steadily working up a global theory on this business; namely that it is the three-fingered tree-huggers who are behind the Long Night and the raising of the Wall; and that they are responsible for the changelings, ie; the white walkers: that the 13 Heroes set out to find the Singers not to enlist their aid against the white walkers but to cry Pax, and that the price of that peace saw the Starks linked to Winter; that the Stark [brandon or Sherrit?] on the Wall and his 12 companions were there not to defend it but to guard the Black Gate, until the Stark in Winterfell overthrew him and initiated the building of castles along the Wall after the Singers fled beyond it. Now down in the forest something is stirring and it will be the old Stark connection to Winter which will resolve the struggle rather than Dany's amazing dragons - let alone Azor Ahai.

Now the point is not to discuss this theory either in whole or in part, but to offer an alternative global theory of what's really going on, based on text and SSM, and to set it out in an essay form to be published as part of the OP for Heresy 120.

Any takers?

I've got the one I've been working on, but I'm not sure it will be ready in time for 120 (especially with the pace we've been moving at), and I'm not sure how heretical it really is :) I'd planned to pull all the book sites in and publish it in the general forum for review, but haven't had a tremendous amount of time recently. If you'd like me to lay it out in this thread (I think I originally posted it in Heresy 117), just let me know.

[JNR]

Now the point is not to discuss this theory either in whole or in part, but to offer an alternative global theory of what's really going on, based on text and SSM, and to set it out in an essay form to be published as part of the OP for Heresy 120.

Any takers?

Hmmm... I see you know how to bait a hook.

I suggest as points to consider for those developing such an alternative theory:

1. The Wall is, we know, made of blocks. If it was constructed by magic, reasonable explanation must be provided for these blocks and their imperfect layout as directly witnessed by Jon in SoS at the foundation and while climbing.

2. This explanation must also account for how the block-based Wall, per GRRM, took "hundreds of years to complete and thousands to reach its present height."

3. The timing of the Popsicles' arrival in the Long Night, and their failure to show up at all to deal with the Andals, must be explained in a way that actually fits the given timeline, instead of requiring us to scramble or ignore the timeline.

[TheButcherCrow]

Actually it does, I forgot about those, thanks Butcher.

Nae bother. My take on it after pulling those quotes is that "white walkers" is a blanket term used to describe both Wights and Others.

[Black Crow]

I'll pass on the essay task BC, I actually don't have any decent theories beyond, "the singers seem pretty dodgy" :)

On to the point of my post. We had been discussing Others vs Wights vs White Walkers (in terms of names, not a theoretical fight) and a few people were saying that the term "white walkers" is only used by Mormont and Old Nan. This is not true. An additional SIX characters use the phrase in 3 out of 5 of the books. Here are the quotes:

A good set of quotes. I had some of that in mind when I spoke earlier about there being a tendency to refer to them as the Others south of the Wall and white walkers north of the Wall, but its good to get them all set out and in totality its pretty impressive - and underlines the need for that converation between Bran and Old Nan revealing that they are one and the same

[wolfmaid7]

Hmmm... I see you know how to bait a hook.

I suggest as points to consider for those developing such an alternative theory:

1. The Wall is, we know, made of blocks. If it was constructed by magic, reasonable explanation must be provided for these blocks and their imperfect layout as directly witnessed by Jon in SoS at the foundation and while climbing.

2. This explanation must also account for how the block-based Wall, per GRRM, took "hundreds of years to complete and thousands to reach its present height."

3. The timing of the Popsicles' arrival in the Long Night, and their failure to show up at all to deal with the Andals, must be explained in a way that actually fits the given timeline, instead of requiring us to scramble or ignore the timeline.

JNR you point the imperfections in the Wall as a point against magic.I have to ask why? Magic is far from perfect nor is its outcome perfect.The writer has been through to that concept.

[Voice]

I'll pass on the essay task BC, I actually don't have any decent theories beyond, "the singers seem pretty dodgy" :)

On to the point of my post. We had been discussing Others vs Wights vs White Walkers (in terms of names, not a theoretical fight) and a few people were saying that the term "white walkers" is only used by Mormont and Old Nan. This is not true. An additional SIX characters use the phrase in 3 out of 5 of the books. Here are the quotes:

Anyway, hope that clears up some arguments (& starts a few new ones ;) ) Some good stuff in those quotes, I particularly like Osha pointing out her matrilineal line and when she says, "like the white walkers were no more than rangers". Have at it good heretics.

Great quotes. I used the one from Samwell ASOS in my synopsis on Other Classes.

So, picking up where we left off then...

TOJ said:

Oh I agree that it doesn't completely support it, it's just my own personal theory with very little (if any) support in the books. It just fits to me that the LH, AA, etc... are just different culture's stories and names for the same event.

As for Dragonsteel, my guess is that it's got obsidian in it somehow, thus why it keeps shattering in the AA stories. Again, though just conjecture on my part.

I feel the same regarding the various culture heroes referring to the same, AA and tPtwP are no brainers. The LH story was always a bit in left field though, not that I don't see how he fits in as well.

What are your thoughts on my last post from 118 (copied below)? Would we be opposed to the Last Hero of the Long Night having a Valyrian mother?

Re: Dragonsteel

It smells of Valyrian influence, doesn't it? And to be honest, it may be the only non-religious evidence revealed in the books that tPtwP ever existed.

Dragonsteel cannot be a Singer's weapon, or product. That means it came from Men. Which men? The FM used Bronze. The Andals used Iron. I suppose Essos or Asshai is possible, some part thereof that follows R'llhor, but they are so tangential to the plot I don't see it having such an origin.

It seems like it would have to be of Valyrian origin. Though this would be long before Aegon's conquest, the presence of Valyrians in Westeros before then has already been revealed in the Targaryen excerpt from TWOIAF.

A good set of quotes. I had some of that in mind when I spoke earlier about there being a tendency to refer to them as the Others south of the Wall and white walkers north of the Wall, but its good to get them all set out and in totality its pretty impressive - and underlines the need for that converation between Bran and Old Nan revealing that they are one and the same

I understand if you interpret it differently but their exchange can easily be taken to reveal the opposite. As it does for me. Obviously a querulous protest from the young nobleman, in my opinion.

[Black Crow]

Nae bother. My take on it after pulling those quotes is that "white walkers" is a blanket term used to describe both Wights and Others.

Nah, if anything they emphasise the difference between them - unless you're really trying to argue that "the Others" collectively comprise white walkers and wights.

[Voice]

Nae bother. My take on it after pulling those quotes is that "white walkers" is a blanket term used to describe both Wights and Others.

It is used that way because people have grown up hearing tales of them from Wet Nurses. It's been hundreds of generations since anyone has had to point to one and say, "that is a White Walker," then to another and say, "but this is a wight." Knowledge of them has been forgotten throughout time, but the tales linger. Oral history has a way of changing over time, details are lost, embellishments are made.

We are introduced to the characters at a point in time when all that is about to change, and they will need to know the difference.

"May the Others take them all."

They have been lumped together now as the Others. All of their eyes are bright as blue stars, all are cold, etc... easy to confuse them. Now of course George doesn't, but it's clear as day in the series that his characters do.

[Black Crow]

Re: Dragonsteel

It smells of Valyrian influence, doesn't it? And to be honest, it may be the only non-religious evidence revealed in the books that tPtwP ever existed.

Dragonsteel cannot be a Singer's weapon, or product. That means it came from Men. Which men? The FM used Bronze. The Andals used Iron. I suppose Essos or Asshai is possible, some part thereof that follows R'llhor, but they are so tangential to the plot I don't see it having such an origin.

It seems like it would have to be of Valyrian origin. Though this would be long before Aegon's conquest, the presence of Valyrians in Westeros before then has already been revealed in the Targaryen excerpt from TWOIAF.

Not necessarily. Its certainly got to be of human origin rather than coming from the three-fingered lot, who work no metal, let alone something like this.

I'm wary of the Valyrian connection. It could quite easily be one of those things that is now known as Valyrian steel by association, rather than origin, but we have a possible conundrum here in that both "dragonglass" and "dragonsteel" do imply a connection to dragons and by extension [so far as we know] to Valyrians and if that's so it seriously screws the accepted timeline for the Long Night and the Wall.

[JNR]

JNR you point the imperfections in the Wall as a point against magic.I have to ask why? Magic is far from perfect nor is its outcome perfect.The writer has been through to that concept.

It's asking a little much that the hypothesized magic that created the Wall did so in the form of blocks at all, and that said magic took thousands of years to create these blocks.

This is particularly true given the repeated statements in the text that the Wall was built by the First Men.

In Heresy, of course, we have frequently been assured that if an idea is spoken by characters, that idea is canon. So, if this principle is to be applied consistently, then it is canon that the Wall was built by the First Men.

[wolfmaid7]

Nae bother. My take on it after pulling those quotes is that "white walkers" is a blanket term used to describe both Wights and Others.

I never argued against that fact.I agree with that wholeheartedly. Guys we have to practice really listening to what people say. I'll say again :cool4:.It will shorten the war of words by 5weeks.

How many times and Heresies past i've said and i quote "the terminology is going to bite them and us in the arse".Characters lump or associate things that may not have the relationship we think.I have said and continue to say the blanket term IS the problem not that it isn't present, as it may not have always started out that way.

BC may recall the example I gave a while a back with the Native Indians of the South West and the problem with the US government at the time putting them under one umbrella because they were Indians.When in fact to them the tribes had a lot of differences whereby it was a problem.Him and i actually said that it was a blanket term,i just said i don't believe it started out that way,nor is it an accuarate description of the relations between the Wights and the WWs.

So again my angst is not that the blanketed term does not exist, it is that the term is problematic for that reason. So the quotes rightfully pointed to the "belief" that the Wights and WWs are in a master servant deal .Look how easily characters like Grenn ake that assumption to some degree without any proof..

Old Nan's quote shows the difference between the two and the error in thinking by showing that she is not describing what we think she should and that's fact.I give CH's as the perfect example and i mentioned this at the end of last thread.He is most definitely as Bran put in an undead thing.With the exception of his humanization he IS a Wight and would be without hesitation dispatched if he happened upon say Allister Thorne.

CH's is GRRM's "confiunder" because given what he is and how he acts would you the reader characterize him as "a monster?" Did the characters find him humanly sympathetic and did that change how they chose to interact with him?

[Black Crow]

It's asking a little much that the hypothesized magic that created the Wall did so in the form of blocks at all, and that said magic took thousands of years to create these blocks.

This is particularly true given the repeated statements in the text that the Wall was built by the First Men.

In Heresy, of course, we have frequently been assured that if an idea is spoken by characters, that idea is canon. So, if this principle is to be applied consistently, then it is canon that the Wall was built by the First Men.

Perfectly acceptable as a theory, so are you volunteering to work it up, addressing the inconsistencies that have spawned heresy?

[TheButcherCrow]

Nah, if anything they emphasise the difference between them - unless you're really trying to argue that "the Others" collectively comprise white walkers and wights.

I'm saying if I was living in a village in the north during the Long Night & I saw some indistinct figures WALKING through the woods and I could make out that they were WHITE (or at least looked that way in the snow), then I would say to my friends, " I saw some white figures walking through the woods". Other people start seeing these "white walkers" and that's the name they get BEFORE people realise there are actually two types, Wights (a common enough term for a reanimated corpse) and THE OTHERS.