What is a "confessor"? (Minor The Rogue Prince spoilers)

[Maester Pedant]

At some point in The Rogue Prince, young Larys Strong is said to have "joined the king's confessors". It is obviously some kind of court post or office.

The only other occurrence of a similar term I can recall is when Jaime mentions an office called "Lord Confessor", which has been vacant since the reign of Daeron II. It is mentioned together with the Chief Gaoler and the King's Justice, so it is clear from the context that it has something to do with the administration of justice. The fact that it has been vacant for so long might mean that the office of "Lord Confessor" has become obsolete.

I imagine that the "king's confessors" were minor officials who would assist the King's Confessor in discharging his duties, whatever they might have been. But I'm not really sure.

Does anyone have a clue?

[TheButcherCrow]

Best guess, they are torturers who specialize in obtaining confessions from those accused of treason or sedition.

[Slender Aimry Hill]

They are definitely torturers...genial King Robert doesn't seem to have relished their use (unlike his younger brother of Dragonstone)!

[mindchap]

Well generally a confessor is just someone who hears a confession, but giving the setting of these books, most likely torturers.

edt: I like the fact that they were dropped under Daeron II, sounds like something BBT would have had no part in. :)

[SerArthurHeath]

Clearly torturers

[Maester Pedant]

Yes, you're probably right. They might be torturers, or they might be officials that interrogate suspects, sometimes (or even most times) under torture. I would find it odd if they were expected to torture people themselves. Most likely they would be present, while others tortured them. This is how the Inquisition did it. The inquisitor would not be doing the torturing itself, so from the point of view of the person being tortured, the inquisitor appeared as someone who was giving him or her a way out, a means of escaping the pain - by confessing or giving information. The phrase "joined the king's confessors" suggests they were a well established and organised group. So it wasn't an ad hoc arrangement. That's why I suspect that there is more than torture involved - though they would certainly use torture as an instrument.

[TheButcherCrow]

Yes, you're probably right. They might be torturers, or they might be officials that interrogate suspects, sometimes (or even most times) under torture. I would find it odd if they were expected to torture people themselves. Most likely they would be present, while others tortured them. This is how the Inquisition did it. The inquisitor would not be doing the torturing itself, so from the point of view of the person being tortured, the inquisitor appeared as someone who was giving him or her a way out, a means of escaping the pain - by confessing or giving information. The phrase "joined the king's confessors" suggests they were a well established and organised group. So it wasn't an ad hoc arrangement. That's why I suspect that there is more than torture involved - though they would certainly use torture as an instrument.

The Joe Abercrombie "First Law" books have a similar type of official actually called an "Inquisitor". These guys get confession from people with torture but they have assistants called "Practicals" who do the actual capturing, beating etc of the accused.

[Maester Pedant]

The Joe Abercrombie "First Law" books have a similar type of official actually called an "Inquisitor". These guys get confession from people with torture but they have assistants called "Practicals" who do the actual capturing, beating etc of the accused.

Yes. It was something like that I had in mind. So "Inquisitor" is the person who inquires. A "confessor", the person who hears and records the confession of the person who has been tortured. But because the inquisitor and the confessor didn't actually do the torturing, the official titles are not mere euphemisms.

[SeanF]

In Joe Abercrombie's series, the Inquisitors carry out the more subtle forms of torturing, as well as asking the questions. The Practicals capture suspects, give them a good beating, and act under the Inquisitors' direction. Glokta is unusual in actually being a detective, who ends the torture once he's satisfied that the victim is telling him the truth. Most of the others either enjoy carrying out torture, or are only interested in obtaining confessions, regardless of whether they're truthful or not.

The King's Confessors and Lord Confessor sound like people who, at the very least, supervise torture, Their role seems redundant, as the Masters of Whisperers seem to resort to torture in any case. Indeed, torture seems to be almost universal, both in Westeros and Essos. People who practise torture include Roose and Ramsay Bolton, the Lannisters and their followers, the Bloody Mummers, Qhorin Halfhand, Stannis, Ser Clayton Suggs, Lord Tarly, Lord Manderly, Lord and Lysa Arryn, the High Sparrow, Daenerys, the Shavepate, Qyburn, Varys, the rulers of Slavers Bay, etc.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

At some point in The Rogue Prince, young Larys Strong is said to have "joined the king's confessors". It is obviously some kind of court post or office.

The only other occurrence of a similar term I can recall is when Jaime mentions an office called "Lord Confessor", which has been vacant since the reign of Daeron II. It is mentioned together with the Chief Gaoler and the King's Justice, so it is clear from the context that it has something to do with the administration of justice. The fact that it has been vacant for so long might mean that the office of "Lord Confessor" has become obsolete.

I imagine that the "king's confessors" were minor officials who would assist the King's Confessor in discharging his duties, whatever they might have been. But I'm not really sure.

Does anyone have a clue?

If Larys was, in fact, a torturer, I would say that there is a good chance he was Cheese is disguise. Both men seem to have knowledge of the secret passages and torture.

Of course, Larys was titularly a Green so I don't know why he was torturing Helaena. To ensure there would be no peace between the Blacks and the Greens?

[Colonel Green]

If Larys was, in fact, a torturer, I would say that there is a good chance he was Cheese is disguise. Both men seem to have knowledge of the secret passages and torture.

Of course, Larys was titularly a Green so I don't know why he was torturing Helaena. To ensure there would be no peace between the Blacks and the Greens?

Larys singlehandedly kept the Green cause going, so there's no way he was one of Daemon's men.

[Slender Aimry Hill]

Well, it's a bit weirder than that. Larys also seems to be the leading candidate for Daemon's 'pale friend', he may have murdered his own family, and could easily have been playing both sides, is the impression I got.

(And yet, he's a completely unintriguing character - a bizarrely lazy mixture of his near namesake Varys and his successor as Master of Whisperers on the BoD MUSH, who's also lame. Is the whisperers' office some kind of high-level amputee clinic?)

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Well, it's a bit weirder than that. Larys also seems to be the leading candidate for Daemon's 'pale friend', he may have murdered his own family, and could easily have been playing both sides, is the impression I got.

(And yet, he's a completely unintriguing character - a bizarrely lazy mixture of his near namesake Varys and his successor as Master of Whisperers on the BoD MUSH, who's also lame. Is the whisperers' office some kind of high-level amputee clinic?)

I agree, I got the feeling that Larys was the "pale friend" as well. However, I always mistrust any accusation against Daemon. If Daemon planned it, why wouldn't he kill Otto?

Larys singlehandedly kept the Green cause going, so there's no way he was one of Daemon's men.

I would say the maesters and Ormund Hightowers kept the cause going. This is how I read the events:

First, maester Orwyle screws up diplomatic relations

Then, a maester gets Borros Baratheon riled up and he gives Aemond leave to attack Luke.

Then, Larys as Cheese kills Jaehaerys.

With Luke and Jaehaerys dead, neither Rhaenyra or Aegon would want peace.

The problem is, Rhaenyra has too many dragons and wins too quickly.

So, I'm thinking Ormund Hightower sends messangers ahead with refugees to Tumbleton and offers Hugh Hammer kingship to cause his betrayal (Hugh can, in fact, read)

And the maester at Maidenpool creates a fake message to mess with Daemon and Nettles

Now, the war is brewing again.

The septons then organize the attack on the dragon pits.

[Slender Aimry Hill]

It's not sufficiently often noted that maesters and septons are not at all necessarily on the same page - but otherwise I do rather like your thinking.

[BitsOfBrains]

In the inquisition confessor meant a couple things.

!. It was the guy who came in to hear the confession AFTER the suspect had been tortured. Usually people of higher standing who didn't want to get their hands dirty.

2. A sort of hit squad they would go out into the world and "root out heresy". Imagine Judge Dredd but in the inquisition times. This often did involve torture of course.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

It's not sufficiently often noted that maesters and septons are not at all necessarily on the same page - but otherwise I do rather like your thinking.

That is true and the riot was the first time I noticed it. There are a couple of other things looking back - a bunch of Septons went with maester Orwyle to treat with Rhaenyra. Why? And Septon Eustace is anti-Daemon as well.

But, the riot is pretty clearly a Faith of the Seven attack. The are led by a religious leader, have great weaponry and call out religious screams when killing the dragons (rather than, say, "Tarth!"). It should be noted that Septon Barth wrote on how to kill a dragon. They also know how to call a dragon, which Ormund Hightower also uses at Tumbleton II.

Obviously, large conspiracies seem crazy, but the Hightowers are big patrons of both the Citadel and the Faith and they all reside in Oldtown (at the time).

[Scorched_Air]

"The Hightowers" in this case doesn't include Gerold Hightower - or does it?

[ChillyPolly]

Best guess, they are torturers who specialize in obtaining confessions from those accused of treason or sedition.

They are definitely torturers...genial King Robert doesn't seem to have relished their use (unlike his younger brother of Dragonstone)!

Well generally a confessor is just someone who hears a confession, but giving the setting of these books, most likely torturers.

edt: I like the fact that they were dropped under Daeron II, sounds like something BBT would have had no part in. :)

Clearly torturers

Not so clear. A "Confessor" (properly speaking) is someone who makes a "confession", not someone who elicits a "confession". It was originally applied to people who held fast in their religious beliefs (or "confession of faith") in the face of hardship (such as torture). So it was more likely to refer to the tortured than the torturer. By extension it referred to trusted spiritual guides and (by further extension giving rise to confusion) to spiritual guides authorized to hear confession.

In this context it might refer to someone who made a confession or profession of allegiance or belief.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Not so clear. A "Confessor" (properly speaking) is someone who makes a "confession", not someone who elicits a "confession". It was originally applied to people who held fast in their religious beliefs in the face of hardship (such as torture). So it was more likely to refer to the tortured than the torturer. By extension it referred to trusted spiritual guides and (by further extension giving rise to confusion) to spiritual guides authorized to hear confession.

In this context it might refer to someone who made a confession or profession of allegiance or belief.

"Lord Confessor" is mentioned along with "Chief Gaoler" and "King's Justice".

[ChillyPolly]

"Lord Confessor" is mentioned along with "Chief Gaoler" and "King's Justice".

That's fine, but it still not completely clear that it means "Lord Torturer".