Feminism - Frightbats Galore!

[karaddin]

Stealing the start of the thread from Lyanna in the last one

Some things to remember:

1. Please don't troll this thread with that you don't believe in feminism. That can be taken elsewhere. This is a thread for discussing feminism and feminist topics.

2. Feel free to ask if you have any questions about feminism or feminists. If a questioned is framed with a modicum of politeness, it will normally get an answer.

3. Please don't troll this thread with biotruths, if you want to bring up how men are hardcoded to behave like X and women like Y, that can also be taken elsewhere. We are discussing societal pressures and how to change them, not innate biology. Yes this should be covered in 1) but it came up anyway last time.

4. Please also avoid anything else blatantly OT, such as pick up advice, derailing about door opening etc.

The last thread dealt with, among other things:

*Outspoken women online and the attempts to silence them

*Feminism and Christianity (sorry I kind of blanked at this one and didn't read enough to do it justice)

*Methods of introducing medical students to innate sexism that affects patient treatment

*Lads in Britain

*Poor characterisation of women in Video Games and then Feminist Frequency and women as wallpaper within those Games, and problems within the online gaming community

*Gendered insults for female political/public figures

*Expectations of masculinity and male victims of DV and the legitimacy of discussion of such provided it's not raised as a derail from feminism

*Julia Serano's framework of Oppositional Sexism **This is a huge thing in my opinion and I need to focus more on it

*Timing when to have kids to fit in with your career

*Romance novels and feminism

*The lack of women in STEM **Got raised but not really discussed, I think there is a chicken and egg situation going on where the absence makes it a more sexist environment that reinforces the absenece

*What feminism will do for men and the intimacy desert that men face, bell hooks

*This excellent TED talk showing a non white, non western perspective on feminism

Ironically after my concession that Feminism and Christianity was one part of the last thread I didn't really engage it, I'm starting the new thread with a link that may be considered part of that depending on whether you consider Mormonism a Christian religion or not. Samantha Allen wrote a piece yesterday on the recent excommunication from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints of Kate Kelly, who was prominently working within the Church to try and improve it's attitude towards women. She feels that the Church is sufficiently set in it's ways that attempts to change it from within are futile and the only way to force change is mass exodus from the Church by women.

As someone raised Catholic who has watched similar efforts to reform the Catholic Church through the eyes of my feminist mother be similarly futile, it's an opinion I share and think applies to the Catholic Church as well. When your opinion is considered so worthless the only thing that will be taken seriously is a direct attack upon the institution that ignores you by boycotting it.

Another link I wanted to share lies in the intersection of feminism, Australian politics and the arguments around free speech. There is a blogger who works under the mast head of our largest newspaper who has a history of sexist abuse directed at prominent female journalists, and he recently had a poll to crown a queen of the "fightbats". The prominent feminists named in the poll decided to claim the title for themselves, and it completely backfired as an attempt to ridicule them (similarly to how radio shock jock Alan Jones accusation that women were "Destroying the Joint" has been taken as the name for one of our online feminist organisations), however it prompted this piece which chronicles the bloggers activities over the last 15 years. He has taken offense to this article and is threatening to sue for defamation. Given one of the key promises of our current Government (see our AG on the right to be a bigot) on coming to power was to wind back protections against racial hate speech, and there has been a ton of rhetoric about the importance of free speech from said Government and the libertarian think tank which is behind it, it's ironic that this is the latest in a series of right wing commentators who make a career out of being offensive towards others being very easily offended themselves.

Finally another Australian in the news, Bindi Irwin made some comments earlier this week on how women shouldn't wear revealing clothes. A young Australian actress named Caitlin Stasey responded on twitter with the opinion that this is rubbish and has come under fire from a number of conservative media figures over the course of the week. She had already been ridiculously targeted recently after being outspoken on twitter about her sexuality (both that she is bisexual, but also simply that she has one) and lack of shame about her body, and these attacks are further ridiculous attempts at shaming women back into their policed place. No specific link for this, but there is a ton on twitter and elsewhere if you google it. Personally Caitlin has now won me over, and I'm hoping she'll show up on GoT as one of the sand snakes, she's currently on Reign, but I'm hardly a difficult sell for outspoken young lgbtqi feminists.

[karaddin]

Actually I'm going to throw some more links in, Maddy Myers had a piece a couple of days ago on trying to get started as a female writer who is openly a feminist in the gaming journalism industry and how difficult it is. Samantha Allen (yes I'm linking her a lot lately, I like a lot of what she has to say) had a response to this (they are good friends, wanted to have that declaration up front with the links) talking about how minority writers can be exploited by the industry because the perspective is valuable, but not desired frequently enough to actually employ.

I think there is value to their commentary on the additional hurdles that come from being a woman and other additional minorities, however I also think that there is more to this. The written journalism industry is dying a very slow death (in it's current form at any rate) and will exploit whoever it can to stay in business, it just so happens that minorities and women are easier to exploit so get exploited even more. Writers in general are not being sufficiently remunerated and there has been increasing amount of talk on this front of late, and that writers should stop propping this up by contributing writing for free.

[Gears of the Beast]

What's wrong with what Caitlin Stasey said? Seems like her position is more analogous to feminism (or maybe rather what I think feminism should be). Reducing what she said to 'that is rubbish' is kind of unfair, she actually said “Open letter to Bindi, in ten years you'll wish you stood beside your shared sex rather than be proud you belittled their choices & agency.” Shouldn't we be respecting one's agency rather than saying women as a group categorically shouldn't do X?

[karaddin]

I think you've misread me Gears, I didn't mean what Caitlin said is rubbish I was very simply trying to summarise that she was describing what Bindi said as rubbish. Caitlin is absolutely putting forward what I consider a feminist position and I'm right behind her and now a fan of her. You are right that it's an inadequate summary of what she said, I didn't still have the page up and couldn't remember exactly what her response was, so thanks for quoting that.

[brook]

karaddin didn't say there was anything wrong with what Stasey said. Very much the opposite actually.

The saddest thing over the last few days has been watching the number of older women in the Australian media falling over themselves to pile on Stasey for 'bullying' Irwin by daring to challenge her opinion.

ETA I rather liked this analysis of the original incident http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/dl-opinion/neighbours-star-caitlin-stasey-and-bindi-irwin-clash-on-twitter-over-modesty-dressing-20140624-3apwd.html

[karaddin]

We really didn't collaborate on that, we just have sublime independent timing to cross post -_-

[Gears of the Beast]

I think you've misread me Gears, I didn't mean what Caitlin said is rubbish I was very simply trying to summarise that she was describing what Bindi said as rubbish. Caitlin is absolutely putting forward what I consider a feminist position and I'm right behind her and now a fan of her. You are right that it's an inadequate summary of what she said, I didn't still have the page up and couldn't remember exactly what her response was, so thanks for quoting that.

Ah ok. I thought you were just reducing what she said to that because you didn't agree. I am also very much in agreement with what she said.

I also think it's kind of weird for 15 year old Bindi to be talking about how women are gonna regret something in 10 years....

[Lyanna Stark]

Yay for a new feminism thread and thanks for starting it karaddin! :)

LOVE frightbats and love that it got taken back. :lol:

Regarding feminism and Christianity, the Swedish church just got its first female Archbishop in Antje Jackelén. She's also pro-evolution, among other things. Further, Eva Brunne is the first openly lesbian bishop in the world. I guess it is easier for change to happen in a smaller organisation like the Church of Sweden than a bigger one. At least change is possible (albeit slowly).

Have lots of thoughts on the "modest" clothing vs individual expression as well but no time atm to post anything.

Thanks for re-linking Ngozi Adichie as well. She's simply a brilliant and very funny woman, and a very good speaker.

[Arkhangel]

What's wrong with what Caitlin Stasey said? Seems like her position is more analogous to feminism (or maybe rather what I think feminism should be). Reducing what she said to 'that is rubbish' is kind of unfair, she actually said “Open letter to Bindi, in ten years you'll wish you stood beside your shared sex rather than be proud you belittled their choices & agency.” Shouldn't we be respecting one's agency rather than saying women as a group categorically shouldn't do X?

I'd guess 15 year old Bindi didn't put much thought into it before she made those comments, but I also think it's more complicated than the straightforward case of shaming Caitlin Stasey seems to have taken it as. From what I read I thought Bindi wasn't necessarily, or at least wasn't only, belittling the choices of young girls who dress in revealing clothes or wear a lot of make-up but also commenting on the peer and societal pressures which are placed on younger teenagers to do so. Supporting individual agency whilst resisting social pressures to conform is a tricky line to walk, and can be difficult to articulate too.

[brook]

I have a hard time seeing anyone telling people that wearing x will make them look classier and not seeing it as shaming, even if it is a 15 year old girl with a very heavily controlled image. Reading the comments again and I can see what she may have been trying to say, and I agree its a fine line and hard to articulate but the heavily judgemental language used really is a problem. I'll also admit my bias here that I have a pretty low opinion of everything connected to the Steve Irwin marketing machine.

I DO think that turning this into a Bindi v Caitlin thing does both an injustice though. I don't think Caitlin's early tweets were attacking Bindi and the way the media have been able to frame this as a battle between the 'good' and 'bad' current/former child stars rather than looking at the substance of what either of them are saying has bothered me. Especially, as I said earlier, the way that older women in the Australian media have been so quick to pile on Caitlin for... well I'm not really sure what for to be honest.

[Crixus]

How about Islam and feminism, y'all?

Nah, kidding. Wouldn't touch that one with an eleventy foot pole (says the 'Muslim'* woman living in Pakistan) :devil:

Seriously though, at the time it was considered quite progressive, in terms of rescuing women from being buried alive and all.

Anyway, carry on. I'm more of an observer (and a keen one).

* I label myself that due to having been born into it; personally I lean quite emphatically toward atheism.

[karaddin]

I don't have the experience to even try weigh in on that subject, so for the most part I'd leave it alone. Maybe link to a queer Islamic feminist I follow on Twitter :p although she's Aussie so also has a different experience.

[brook]

I'll just link to her blog, because it's good even if it's obviously not going to be even close to universal.

[karaddin]

I'd avoid reading anything of hers if generalised criticism of bigotry makes you need to point out that not all of group y engages in that (ie #notallmen, #notallwhites etc)

[Crixus]

Nah, not me. Personally, I find that bigotry and intolerance is endemic in my own society and in fact, it's less and less safe to stand up for stuff like equality regardless of religion, gender, sexual ID etc. I'd say a large % of middle class Pakistanis espouse certain 'truths' that make me want to commit violence (but I shan't, cuz that ain't the answer :P)

So thanks for the link! I'll get back with comments, if any.

[Lyanna Stark]

I also think it's kind of weird for 15 year old Bindi to be talking about how women are gonna regret something in 10 years....

Yeah, it is.

Tbh, I don't know anything about Bindi, how she's managed or anything, but generally, women are often asked to comment on other women's looks and that makes the context more sexist than the involved (most of the time).

Perhaps Bindi really meant to say that her fellow teenage girls just aren't classy enough and that she is. That's a definite possibility in which case she's operating under internalised sexism. Not unusual in itself, but making the commentary totally appropriate.

However, as a bit of a collectivist, I tend to weigh in the side that what I do *does* reflect on the larger groups I am a member of. While I think it's important for women to have the right to dress how the hell we want and express ourselves in which ever way we want, at whatever time that may be, I also recognise that with those rights come responsibility. What is it I wish to say by acting and/or dressing a certain way at a certain time? My choices have impact not only on me but on the people around me. For instance, take someone like Christina Aguilera or Miley Curys. I completely endorse their right to dress how they want and do what they want with themselves and their bodies. That doesn't mean I have to endorse what their message is or what they stand for. Those two are completely and mutually exclusive in some cases. I find their willing reduction to sex object and Body quite offensive. Not that they are alone in that. Lots of women make what I would judge to be stupid or outrageous decisions about how to present themselves, their image and especially the tendency to agree to outrageous objectification (like beauty contests).

I support their right to be outrageous, silly, stupid and even average, but I don't have to like the result for it.

So, back to the beginning. A lot of teenage girls dress a certain way because everyone else does, or because it will possibly attract boys. I defend their right to do so, but I think their decision to do so is not made in a vacuum. How much of that decision is really independent, considerate thought and how much is simply peer pressure and society's expectations? I'm not sure anyone can even untangle that mess.

While individual expression is important, sometimes even vital, it is only individual and independent in so far as the context allows. And the context isn't free or repercussions, especially not for women. I am actually not even thinking about silly stuff like "don't dress like a slut", but that how we choose affects those around us via social pressure. My choices of being outspoken, for instance, has already impacted lots of different people in various ways. Had I not chosen that, things would be different.

So I guess this is not a commentary on freedom of expression (which should always be there) but on that this has consequences. Rights lead to responsibility, and frankly I think sometimes we disregard those collective responsibilities. Or perhaps it's just not a fashionable concept? I don't know. I tend to think collective action is important within feminism. So a better way of framing the original "teenage girls aren't dressing with enough class" is perhaps asking back "then why aren't they?" which would give a plethora of interesting answers and lots of new questions like "who decides what is classy?".

Cut short because work. ><

[karaddin]

Lyanna - I would say that if that's what someone was trying to convey they can say "Be mindful of the message sent by the way you present yourself, ensure it's the message you want to be sending and examine why you want to send it". It's shorter, and can't be misinterpreted as shaming, because if that is indeed the message you want to send it's fine. I don't think this is what Bindi was saying, nor is it what most people say when they express similar sentiments, I think the shaming and the elevation of herself as better or more enlightened were intended.

That said I'm with brook that the entire framing of it as Caitlin vs Bindi is ridiculous, if Caitlin is fighting anyone it's the media who have been so absurd lately and attacking her.

ETA: For context, here is a piece summarising the idiocy that had already sprung up last week prior to this latest thing over Bindi's comments.

Former Neighbours star Caitlin Stasey has slammed The Daily Telegraph, Daily Mail and Nine MSN for making her out to be a "bizarre, raving, sexual lunatic".

She has also accused them of "shaming" women who openly discuss their sexuality.

“Would like to thank @dailytelegraph @DailyMailUK and @TheFIXninemsn for adding to the shaming of women who openly discuss their sexuality,” Stasey responded on Twitter this morning.

[Lyanna Stark]

Oh I agree, absolutely. And the media is just 100% terrible, creating a silly "fight" out of nothing, like they are wont to do. While bindi's comment is thoughtless, the media furore is just plain misogynist.

If nothing else, this is absolute proof that still in 2014, female sexuality is extremely threatening.

[Theda Baratheon]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VrAcV2ywnqc

because I can't link properly on my phone this video is of a young boy having an extreme temper tantrum when finding out he has a new baby sister instead of a brother. his father actually encourages him at times, the mother is COMPLETELY SILENT and the two little sisters who initially were very excited and sweet become more and more uncomfortable.

Some might look at this and think it's harmless, but it actually made me really uncomfortable that his repeated "I HATE GIRLS I WANT ZERO GIRLS" wasn't being challenged more, if at all.

[karaddin]

Yeah I've got the same take on that as you.