Feminism - Frightbats Galore!

[OccupyHarrenhal]

A couple interesting stories:

Fuse - Here's What It's Like Being A Female Musician On Warped Tour

Tours are infamous for being places where female fans are assaulted and harassed, but I'd never considered what it's like for the women on the stage.

I wasn't let on stage once because they thought I was a fan and not in the band. The fans were even screaming, "She's in the band! She's in the band!

Sexy Schoolgirl 5k race cancelled following outcry - Raleigh News & Observer

I'm glad this disgusting event that was going to happen just down the road from me was cancelled. Supposedly it is intended to raise money for MathCounts - which A. already has big name sponsors like Northrop Grumman and Texas Instruments, and B. could have easily been done with a less sexist theme. The whole "schoolgirls as sexual objects" thing is especially creepy and pedophilic too.

[Arkhangel]

I have a hard time seeing anyone telling people that wearing x will make them look classier and not seeing it as shaming, even if it is a 15 year old girl with a very heavily controlled image. Reading the comments again and I can see what she may have been trying to say, and I agree its a fine line and hard to articulate but the heavily judgemental language used really is a problem. I'll also admit my bias here that I have a pretty low opinion of everything connected to the Steve Irwin marketing machine.

I have a bit of a bias the other way, not because I was or am a fan of Steve Irwin (far from it) but because I think Bindi is in a comparatively unusual and very difficult position. She's subjected to all the conflicting pressures of being a rapidly-maturing child star - in that her peers and the media and various social forces are no doubt compelling her to dress and act more like an adult and perhaps more provocatively at the same time as the 'marketing machine', which includes her mother, and her fans continue to push her the other way.

For her, though, it's more extreme and more personal than for most child stars because her public image is so closely tied up with a parent who has passed away whilst in the media spotlight. You know that the second she puts a toe out of line the media will leap to invoke the memory of her father. They probably already have the 'WHAT WOULD STEVE THINK?' mock-ups stashed in some metaphorical backroom.

That's a bloody tough and confusing position for a 15 year old to be in, so I'm inclined to give her a little extra slack when it comes to something like this.

[Arkhangel]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VrAcV2ywnqc

because I can't link properly on my phone this video is of a young boy having an extreme temper tantrum when finding out he has a new baby sister instead of a brother. his father actually encourages him at times, the mother is COMPLETELY SILENT and the two little sisters who initially were very excited and sweet become more and more uncomfortable.

Some might look at this and think it's harmless, but it actually made me really uncomfortable that his repeated "I HATE GIRLS I WANT ZERO GIRLS" wasn't being challenged more, if at all.

I can't believe the Dad said "that was my reaction too"... right in front of his two daughters, and you can just see their little faces drop and then they leave the frame.

Edited for being too harsh on the little boy. He's only a kid, it's his parents' responsibility to teach him better.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VrAcV2ywnqc

because I can't link properly on my phone this video is of a young boy having an extreme temper tantrum when finding out he has a new baby sister instead of a brother. his father actually encourages him at times, the mother is COMPLETELY SILENT and the two little sisters who initially were very excited and sweet become more and more uncomfortable.

Some might look at this and think it's harmless, but it actually made me really uncomfortable that his repeated "I HATE GIRLS I WANT ZERO GIRLS" wasn't being challenged more, if at all.

I have some complicated feelings about this.

On the one level, it's just a little boy having a temper tantrum, and it's kind of cute in the way that kids having a major tantrum over a minor issue can be. I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with a little boy wanting another little boy to balance the gender scales in the house and play "boy stuff" with (not that I think there really should be boy stuff and girl stuff, but the reality of the situation is that this boy probably has very different interests than his sisters, and would like to have someone around like him).

On the other hand, Dad's comment ("I felt the same way") is fucking ridiculous, and there is no care being taken whatsoever to acknowledge or validate the fact that the two sisters in the video are HAPPY to be having a sister. Isn't this just gender dynamics writ small? A boy becomes the center of attention with a loud, obnoxious, uncalled for outburst and the feelings of two little girls get sidelined as they dissolve into the background to cede center stage to their brother?

Very, very unfortunate.

[1918me]

Sexy Schoolgirl 5k race cancelled following outcry - Raleigh News & Observer

I'm glad this disgusting event that was going to happen just down the road from me was cancelled. Supposedly it is intended to raise money for MathCounts - which A. already has big name sponsors like Northrop Grumman and Texas Instruments, and B. could have easily been done with a less sexist theme. The whole "schoolgirls as sexual objects" thing is especially creepy and pedophilic too.

:ack:

Good to see there was an outcry over it, I suppose, although the fact that the idea got as far as it did is pretty messed up. Frankly, I have a hard time imagining who greenlights something like that, and I'd rather not imagine the person who came up with it.

[karaddin]

Nestor - yeah that's the issue. Kids have dumb offensive outbursts, it happens. Its the dad that's the problem there, just laughing and sympathising with him and not a fuck given for the girls. One of the parents could have at least stepped in and given the girls a slice of cake or something ffs. And that boy needed to be told saying he hates girls and specifically hates his sisters is not OK.

[The Mance]

and there is no care being taken whatsoever to acknowledge or validate the fact that the two sisters in the video are HAPPY to be having a sister.

and not a fuck given for the girls.

Not entirely true. At about 1:10 Dad swings the camera to ask both of the girls if they are happy. And two of the three or four things Dad says during the tantrum are to remind the kid that he loves his current sisters, and to assure him that he will love his new sister.

I would say that at worst the video could be held up as a superficial caricature of greater societal gender imbalances. But to say with any certainty that gender dynamics played a role in the actual video would take an excruciatingly cynical read. All I can see is a parent doing their best, within the moment, to quell an unexpectedly awkward situation with generic commiseration and softball platitudes. And if Dad was mainly focused on the son's (malechild!) reaction it's because he was the only kid in the room that was throwing a ridiculous tantrum.

[Theda Baratheon]

Nestor - yeah that's the issue. Kids have dumb offensive outbursts, it happens. Its the dad that's the problem there, just laughing and sympathising with him and not a fuck given for the girls. One of the parents could have at least stepped in and given the girls a slice of cake or something ffs. And that boy needed to be told saying he hates girls and specifically hates his sisters is not OK.

Although I thought the kid was being a spoilt little shit, he is only a kid and I wasn't implying he is already a terrible misogynist, he's a child. HOWEVER, there is something very disturbing and upsetting to me to see such remarks as "I DON'T WANT ANOTHER GIRL I HATE GIRLS I WANT ZERO GIRLS IT'S ALL GIRLS" being validated by an asshole father in front of HIS TWO DAUGHTERS. I can imagine that could potentially be very hurtful to them, especially id they were to watch this video again later. The fact center stage is given to the little boy and he is allowed way too much time to scream and cry about how awful girls are with dad in the background laughing and agreeing is really fucking shitty.

[Theda Baratheon]

Not entirely true. At about 1:10 Dad swings the camera to ask both of the girls if they are happy. And two of the three or four things Dad says during the tantrum are to remind the kid that he loves his current sisters, and to assure him that he will love his new sister.

I would say that at worst the video could be held up as a superficial caricature of greater societal gender imbalances. But to say with any certainty that gender dynamics played a role in the actual video would take an excruciatingly cynical read. All I can see is a parent doing their best, within the moment, to quell an unexpectedly awkward situation with generic commiseration and softball platitudes. And if Dad was mainly focused on the son's (malechild!) reaction it's because he was the only kid in the room that was throwing a ridiculous tantrum.

all I know if is I was a little girl and heard my dad say he also didnt want another girl then I'd be quite upset.

[The Mance]

all I know if is I was a little girl and heard my dad say he also didnt want another girl then I'd be quite upset.

Right. I forgot to agree with Nestor's last point about it being unfortunate. It was hard to read how the whole incident was affecting the girls. Mostly they just seemed confused as to why their big brother would so upset about a new sister. So who knows whether they would even take his disappointment as something to take personally. I did cringe a little when Dad agreed that he'd wished for a boy as well, though, but only because he said it aloud, not for wishing.

[Lily Valley]

Likewise, Theda. I would have been crushed. My father didn't have any sons. The only thing my father has ever had to say on the subject is, "Kids! I should have had more of you!" This is his general response when we do something that shocks our father. I play sports with my father, listen to his war-stories, talk to him about work and money, family and sacrifice. I have no idea whether or not our relationship would be different if I had a brother. I never think about it.

On parenting and feminism:

My mother was a second-wave feminist. She worked for Planned Parenthood and she worked locally for several clinics that, ahem, support women's reproductive rights. She had to go to work sometimes in a bullet-proof vest.

She had a real "sink-or-swim" style of parenting, but she showed up once to fight a school I was in trouble with because I got suspended on World Condom Awareness day for blowing condoms up on the sidewalk during school hours.

I'd hate to be the administrator that had to deal with her. My suspension was revoked.

As a result, I was raised on a diet of girl power that wasn't real and still isn't real. It beats the hell out of what my mother grew up with. She honestly thought she had three choices: marriage, nurse, teacher. She picked nurse. Marriage happened later.

I have no idea what kind of person I would have become without that early education. My mother HATES third wave feminism. Partially due to my own participation. However, without her example, I might have floundered for decades apologizing for my life.

Anyone had success/failure from feminist parenting? Is there a definition of such a thing? I see a lot of discussion about buying tools for girls and avoiding pink, but that seems so bizarre to me that I can't believe it's doing any good. Again, if this has been raised before I apologize. I just wonder if there is anything concrete from those who were raised with second wave feminism or third.

[MinDonner]

My mum was staunchly second-wave, which definitely had an effect; on one hand I never went through that stage of "well I support women's rights but I wouldn't call myself a feminist", but on the other I did grow up despising all things feminine, which has taken a LOT of effort to shake off. No mum, George from the Famous Five is NOT a good role model. Now I'm trying to level her up to third wave with the examples of Sansa and Arya, but it's hard going - I'd like to get a bit more into that but not while I'm posting on my phone...

[Arkhangel]

Anyone had success/failure from feminist parenting? Is there a definition of such a thing? I see a lot of discussion about buying tools for girls and avoiding pink, but that seems so bizarre to me that I can't believe it's doing any good. Again, if this has been raised before I apologize. I just wonder if there is anything concrete from those who were raised with second wave feminism or third.

Do you think it's necessary to have explicitly feminist parenting? My parents always made it clear that I could do anything I wanted when I grew up, my grandpa gave me the same little toolkits as my male cousin, I played with Barbies and Power Rangers, my Dad encouraged me in maths and science at school and is still desperately trying to get me into economics even though it's sort of tangential to my work and interests. The word feminism was never used, but looking back I feel it was implicit even if my parents themselves didn't realise it. I think it worked out pretty well!

[karaddin]

Given that I was raised as a boy I'm not sure that my experience is particularly useful in a general sense. My mother was of an age that places her as part of the 2nd wave, although I don't know that she was ever particularly active with it rather than just being supportive of it. She was a very big fan of Germaine Greer for a long time, but went off her after some more recent remarks (and my trans status combined with Greer's stance on trans women pretty much ensures that isn't changing back). The only area that I can recall Mum's feminism playing an explicit role was advocacy within the Catholic Church, for about 5 years she was going to Church with a priest that I'm pretty sure would be classified as a feminist these days although I'm not sure that he was back then. He was ultimately excommunicated by the Church and that was the last straw for her (and gave me an excuse to get out too).

I certainly was not raised with any expectation that women were not just as capable as men. My Dad is an accountant and loves football, and there never seemed to be much intellectual curiousity to pursue other things, he basically never reads anything other than the Newspaper and he is conservative politically. Mum on the other hand reads constantly and she imbued me with her love of reading and a joy in knowledge, and I've always had a really close relationship with her where at times it was more strained with Dad (due to me, not him). After leaving home I've mostly lived with women in the my family and I've always had that strong smart female presence. It was why I always was more concerned about making women uncomfortable if I approached them and largely didn't do so.

So I feel that while there wasn't an explicitly feminist upbringing, there was a lot that was implicitly so. That lack of explicit feminism does seem to have had some translation into attitudes of my siblings to feminism however, with none of my 3 brothers or 2 sisters being feminists..my Mum had to wait till I was almost 30 to discover I was actually her missing feminist daughter :P

ETA: That embracing of the feminist label myself only came after the board helped open my eyes. Separate point, there was none of the anti femininity of 2nd wave feminism in my upbringing, even if that was where Mum's feminism sprung from.

[Derfel Cadarn]

Lol, the Famous Five, where they only age a year or two despite their adventures taking place over 11 years.

George is definitely not a good feminist role model - a girl who hates being a girl, considers them inferior, wishes she was a boy, pretends to be a boy, and considers it the highest praise when she's mistaken for a boy. Probably for the best, 'cause if she wavered from that position, Julian would have had her helping the perpetually 10 year old Anne with all the cooking and domestic chores while he and Dick went swimming, tree-climbing and giving ne'er-do-wells a good ticking off.

The lack of aging was probably for the best too; aged 12, puberty was about to hit and George wouldn't have taken the developments well.

Anne turning into a stroppy teen could have been fun though, chibbing Julian with a ginger ale bottle and telling him to cook his own fucking breakfast. And if they must spend every school holiday camping in muddy fields, couldn't they at least sneak into Glastonbury and get shitfaced on vodka?

I'd love to write a Famous Five parody set in Westeros, with the Stark kids tramping over the Seven Kingdoms and foiling Davos's smuggling ring.

[deleted01]

I've never heard my mum give much of an opinion on feminism, but she's the kind of person who does what she wants, regardless of what people think. She did stay at home with us kids, but as far as I'm aware, she didn't have much of a career beforehand (she'd worked 3 jobs and took off travelling). My dad was a courier, and she did his books, taxes etc. When my dad died, she had to start working again. She's the kind of person who just does what's necessary I guess.

My dad was a mixed bag. He learnt to cook at a young age, and would do his share of chores, but my relationship with him was odd, to say the least. Notwithstanding the other crap I've spoken about before, he seemed to think that I was responsible for the household chores if my mum wasn't around (and while he was ill, I still don't believe he was too ill to fill the kettle. Yeah, I'd be called away from revision to make him tea). I don't know if that was because I was a woman, or just because it was me. He encouraged us in all things - my sister played football, as did my brother, and he always wanted me to be a writer. He never said that a woman "belonged at home" or anything of the sort. So I think it was just me he had a problem with, regardless of my gender.

[Lily Valley]

My mum was staunchly second-wave, which definitely had an effect; on one hand I never went through that stage of "well I support women's rights but I wouldn't call myself a feminist", but on the other I did grow up despising all things feminine, which has taken a LOT of effort to shake off. No mum, George from the Famous Five is NOT a good role model. Now I'm trying to level her up to third wave with the examples of Sansa and Arya, but it's hard going - I'd like to get a bit more into that but not while I'm posting on my phone...

Good luck, Min. Maybe your mum is more openminded than mine. I think my mother will go to her grave thinking that revealing clothes are the uniform of a traitor and a deliberate slap in the face.

Do you think it's necessary to have explicitly feminist parenting? My parents always made it clear that I could do anything I wanted when I grew up, my grandpa gave me the same little toolkits as my male cousin, I played with Barbies and Power Rangers, my Dad encouraged me in maths and science at school and is still desperately trying to get me into economics even though it's sort of tangential to my work and interests. The word feminism was never used, but looking back I feel it was implicit even if my parents themselves didn't realise it. I think it worked out pretty well!

No, that wasn't my intention. Mine was explicitly feminist and resulted in a pretty early awareness of sexism within our culture, a great deal of anger in my teen years, and a third-wave methodology of rebelling against my mother. She was very much opposed to traditionally feminine things for my sister and I. This included our clothing as teenagers. So, of course, I wore the shortest skirts I could get my hands on and then screamed at everyone for treating me like a bimbo. And screamed at my mother for disapproving and judging me by society's standards. (I was a total brat.)

I was just curious if anyone else had experience with feminist upbringing or thought about it in terms of their own parenting.

[sologdin]

heteronormative couple manages household with egalitarian division of labor, maybe? it need not be self-conscious or expressed, but if everyone is on the hook for wage-earning, domestic labor, parenting, &c. in equal capacities, that goes a decent way toward degendering labor inside and outside the house.

[Athias]

I'm glad this disgusting event that was going to happen just down the road from me was cancelled. Supposedly it is intended to raise money for MathCounts - which A. already has big name sponsors like Northrop Grumman and Texas Instruments, and B. could have easily been done with a less sexist theme. The whole "schoolgirls as sexual objects" thing is especially creepy and pedophilic too.

How is it sexist? Even if those who participate are doing so to solicit consumption by broadcasting their sexuality--and, in turn, are being objectified for said sexuality--where's the sexism? Surely, you're not arguing that these women who volunteer to participate in these themed races are being devalued or discriminated against? Or is it the mere display of sexuality that offends you?

[Littlefingers In The Air]

I consider myself an ally to the cause of women's rights but I don't know if that makes me a feminist or not. I was raised to believe in gender roles and to look to the Bible for how men and women ought to behave and believe me, I didn't need this forum to start thinking for myself but this community did help me become more comfortable with my changing attitudes.

But even to this day, while I advocate for women getting the same salary as men for the same work, and while I argue with people all the time over what I deem to be their sexist behavior, I still have a personal desire for the kind of relationship I was bought up to believe in.

So I guess the only thing that's changed is that I don't think everyone ought to be held to that standard, and I'd fight tooth and nail on that accord.