Jorah: Mildly Disturbing or Tragically Romantic?

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

As I said some comments above Jorah wouldn't be diagnosed as a pedophile in MODERN WORLD Please, could we stop using that word?

I've read your comment, I simply disagree. I understand he would not be viewed as such in ASOIAF world, that's why I added the parenthesis. But a 35+ (?) year old man attracted to a 13-14 year old girl, by modern lens, is exactly what I called him and I'm not sorry. (Furthermore, you've provided no links or research names for your "medical" diagnosis, so... yeah.)

[ambi76]

Pedophile: A person sexually attracted to prepubescent children.

It's not that hard a definition to learn but people "disagree". The most hilarious ones are those that insist on calling older adults dating younger adults pedophiles. At that point you know a word (or rather specific psychological diagnosis, yes that's what it is Lady Wylla, study it out) has lost any meaning.

On topic: I personally find Jorah's obsession with Dany more creepy than romantic, mostly because of his utter denial about her platonic (and hey if you give it time they might not even be that platonic, but back the fuck off now) feelings towards him and his relating her to his former wife, wtf?

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

Pedophile: A person sexually attracted to prepubescent children.

It's not that hard a definition to learn but people "disagree". The most hilarious ones are those that insist on calling older adults dating younger adults pedophiles. At that point you know a word (or rather specific psychological diagnosis, yes that's what it is Lady Wylla, study it out) has lost any meaning.

I think that dictionary meaning is questionable at best. It's not just an issue with this word. I'd like to remind you that the dictionary meaning of "racism" has been under discussion for years. I find it sort of funny that some people are so pressed at some of us calling a 30+ year old man attracted to a 13 year old girl "a pedophile." As if the dictionary description is more important than how uncomfortable the situation is...? (Lastly, no. That was no proper diagnosis or explanation.)

Anyway, I think we're spamming the thread with a mildly-related discussion. If you want to continue discussing, my inbox is open. Though it may be a bit pointless, as it's not going to change my mind about Jorah or any real person who has fancies like Jorah.

[It's Not That Littlefinger]

both. he's kind of a hopeless romantic, but he comes off as a little creepy

[ForgottenKnight]

Kyoshi - I can honestly say I disagree with every single one of your opinions on the matter. I read the same lines as you do and yet you come to a completely different conclusion that I do not understand the rational behind. I explained in the other thread in better detail why Jorah's actions are based on emotion and not obsession or lust. Selfless acts are just that, selfless with nothing to gain. You seem to think that all of his actions are simply part of a master plan to get in her pants. No one here has made the argument that Dany owes him love, I don't know why you keep bringing it up, much less how you come to the idea that he is treating her like an object or a prize.

If you look at all these situations through a 21st century lens then you're lacking empathy with each and every single one of the characters in the story which is very counterintuitive to fiction. That being said the age thing does not bother me. He is attracted to her because of who she is as a person, not because of how she looks. Yes the age thing is troublesome in our world. The story however does not take place in ours, it has its own. Like life, not everything in the story is clear, cut, and dry. The absolutes of right and wrong are fuzzy.

You think its wrong because of our modern standard. If you live in the U.S. the law for legal age of adulthood was 13 until 1920. The idea of her being too young for him hasn't even existed for a full century in our own and yet you are so clear on judging him negatively because of it. If he wanted to Jorah could have taken her by force by now or simply tricked her into falling in love with him. If modern 13 year olds are any indication, it would be easy for him to take either of these options without difficulty.

The world of ASoFaI is a darker world than our own because in it lives the true realities of human nature. They aren't constrained by the same rules we are and so the true aspects of human beings can be seen. You judge people by modern laws yet you show a clear inability to understand how people will act without them. If you understood human nature more I think you would appreciate the story GRRM has created more.

[ambi76]

Yeah, the pedo talk will go nowhere so let's stop that (I'm just really anal about word meanings).

Even as a decidedly non-Dany/Jorah shipper (and Dany/Daario shipper just because :P ), I sometimes like to think of a vague tragic-romantic ending for those two. Like Jorah is there when she dies in childbirth/walks into a pyre once more, or something like that.

[MotherMerciless]

Creepy to me.

[Kyoshi]

Kyoshi - I can honestly say I disagree with every single one of your opinions on the matter. I read the same lines as you do and yet you come to a completely different conclusion that I do not understand the rational behind. I explained in the other thread in better detail why Jorah's actions are based on emotion and not obsession or lust. Selfless acts are just that, selfless with nothing to gain. You seem to think that all of his actions are simply part of a master plan to get in her pants. No one here has made the argument that Dany owes him love, I don't know why you keep bringing it up, much less how you come to the idea that he is treating her like an object or a prize.

If you look at all these situations through a 21st century lens then you're lacking empathy with each and every single one of the characters in the story which is very counterintuitive to fiction. That being said the age thing does not bother me. He is attracted to her because of who she is as a person, not because of how she looks. Yes the age thing is troublesome in our world. The story however does not take place in ours, it has its own. Like life, not everything in the story is clear, cut, and dry. The absolutes of right and wrong are fuzzy.

You think its wrong because of our modern standard. If you live in the U.S. the law for legal age of adulthood was 13 until 1920. The idea of her being too young for him hasn't even existed for a full century in our own and yet you are so clear on judging him negatively because of it. If he wanted to Jorah could have taken her by force by now or simply tricked her into falling in love with him. If modern 13 year olds are any indication, it would be easy for him to take either of these options without difficulty.

The world of ASoFaI is a darker world than our own because in it lives the true realities of human nature. They aren't constrained by the same rules we are and so the true aspects of human beings can be seen. You judge people by modern laws yet you show a clear inability to understand how people will act without them. If you understood human nature more I think you would appreciate the story GRRM has created more.

I'm not looking at it from any of the lenses you're suggesting. Only through the human lens where it shouldn't be necessary to sit in a room and decide the cut off point for childhood and the the line for creepy sexual attractions. I'm looking at it through the lens of "as a member of the human race, is this a normal thing, is this a thing I should consider normal?"

The thing is we will never agree. That's fine. All we can do at this pont is respect one another's opinions. I think our conduct so far has been civil enough to show that we do.

[Hodor's Dragon]

What's creepy to me is that people are imposing rigid restraints on people's behavior because of arbitrary numbers. Because - in this situation - that's all the age difference between Jorah and Dany means: numbers.

There's a particular reason that we think of older men and young girls as "creepy." It's a familiar story. An older, sophisticated guy with money and possessions overwhelms a younger girl by showing her things she has never seen, giving her experiences she has never had, and let's throw her a few drinks that she doesn't know how to handle. The next thing you know he has given her a venereal disease or a baby and is on his way to the next victim with no regard for her shattered emotional state. It's a very sad story, not uncommon, and a solid reason for development of social norms and a taboo.

It's also utterly inapplicable to Jorah and Dany. He's older and that's about it. There is not the slightest ghost of the idea that Jorah is manipulating Dany because of her youth. He makes no attempt to snow or overwhelm her, and he would crash and burn in flames if he did try it, because you know what? Dany's no child. She's more than a match for him in pretty much every way you can figure.

Let's look at her scorecard:

• She has been married;
  
• Her marriage turned into a love match because she took control with a commanding sexual performance;
  
• She got pregnant and carried the child to term;
  
• She has lost a husband and a child;
  
• She led her tribe through the trackless wastes to safe haven;
  
• She navigated the treacherous politics of Qarth;
  
• She has conquered 3 cities and freed their slaves, and one of the conquests was via a treacherous stratagem that was entirely her idea and one she didn't even discuss with anyone else;
  
• Raised 3 dragons without a manual or a dragonfood store in the neighborhood;
  
• Took a sellsword into her bed solely for sex;
  
• Is a famous conqueror widely called the most beautiful woman in the world. Her sexual allure is a valuable tool of statecraft.
  

You think she's a child? Well, she's not, I don't care what the numbers on her birth certificate say. Is it sad that she lost her childhood? Maybe a little, but she has certainly made lemonade from the lemons instead of sitting around squirting the juice into her eyes for a tearfest. Whatever may have happened long ago, by now her childhood is long, long gone and she should be able to live her adult life, including her love life, as she chooses.

It may be a little uncomfortable for her that Jorah has this unrequited love thing for her, but he is keeping it thoroughly under control, even getting along with Daario to some extent, and in the meanwhile he is a valuable addition to her team, a man of proven loyalties and capabilities. From his perspective, he's only human and her presence is overwhelming. She's not just a beautiful woman, she's a magical creature and a charismatic messiah figure. She veritably glows with power. Cut him some frickin' slack, he has fallen in love with her but he has also been mature about it.

[koke]

I couldn't agree more wirh Hodor's Dragon. Perfectly put. As someone who struggles with English: thanks.

About the pedophile talk you are right and we should probably stop it

But i have to say that its not just a definition on the dictionary, is a psychiatric disorder and anyone diagnosed as a pedophile have to meet an specific criteria that Jorah does not. So here no matter what your opinion is, he is not a pedophile and that's it....

[Northernmonkey]

Dany is physically and mentally an adult, so any talk of paedophilia is ridiculous.

As for it being creepy, I don't think so because Dany has all the power. There's no question of Jorah forcing Dany to do anything.

And at the end of the day Jorah and Dany are good friends who have been through a lot together. He kissed her, she didn't feel the same and it was a bit awkward. There's nothing creepy about it.

[Kyoshi]

I think that maybe one of the problems is that people are uncomfortable with 'paedophile talk.' How can we debate this fairly if we dismiss certain aspect of the argument simply because they make us uncomfortable? I think it would be better if we didn't simply dismiss ideas but argued against them with evidence and such.

That said, I have to wonder how much Iain Glen helps Jorah's case :P

[LordStoneheart]

Don't quote me on this ;) but I thought the general feeling was that Jorah was not a well-liked character until the show got popular. Then again, I think the same goes for Dany and others too. No doubt the attractiveness of Iain and Emilia have something to do with that... but I actually think that's worse in Jorah's case since he's meant to be ugly whereas a close reader before the series should probably be unimpressed with Emilia's looks. (She makes my heart leap, but I don't think she or any other actress can really have an almost otherworldly beauty.)

[Kyoshi]

^LOL, don't quote me on this...

I think that show goes a long way in helping Jorah's case. I started with the show and his 'crush' didn't seem so creepy to me. When I started reading the books...whoa...

Off-topic: I'm very impressed with Emilia, she, along with Mark Addy, are the only ones who match what I read in the books, IMO.

[rmholt]

Jorah is mixed up. His brain sees Dany as a queen. His heart is seduced by her power and personality - and appearance). He is also trying to have things both ways to get back to Bear Island (pride) and he is not good with boundaries . Also sin of pride won't allow him to beg forgiveness. He feels entitled. Not good with authority (Ned, Dany, Barristan) Very gray.

[OldGimletEye]

The problem with Jorah is that he is the type of guy that loses his goddamn mind every time he meets a pretty girl.

Here is Jorah if he lived in our world:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0PUrNwvvBk

[ForgottenKnight]

I'm not looking at it from any of the lenses you're suggesting. Only through the human lens where it shouldn't be necessary to sit in a room and decide the cut off point for childhood and the the line for creepy sexual attractions. I'm looking at it through the lens of "as a member of the human race, is this a normal thing, is this a thing I should consider normal?"

The thing is we will never agree. That's fine. All we can do at this pont is respect one another's opinions. I think our conduct so far has been civil enough to show that we do.

It falls under sociology. Certain cultures and societies will find it acceptable and normal while others will not. A lot of it has to do with upbringing and how we are taught. A good example are the Dothraki or Ironborn. In their culture it is acceptable for the strong to rape and pillage. They consider those too weak to defend themselves as deserving of their fate. Theon who is an Ironborn was mostly raised in Winterfell. When he returns home to the Iron Islands he faces an identity crises which leads to him attack and take Winterfell, committing terrible acts in order to be accepted by his people. He later regrets his actions because he realizes he did not embrace his father's tradition but that of his foster father. Dany is disturbed by the rape and conquest of the "sheep people" but none of her Dothraki handmaidens have an issue with it.

In 1st world countries it is unthinkable to wed children or anyone under the age of 18. In the Middle East, certain parts of Africa, and Central Asia these things occur all the time. Child marriages are more likely to occur in tribal areas of the world. These concepts aren't new or strange. They are part of who we are as human beings. We've been doing them longer than we haven't. Its the evolution of society and globalization that's causing us to move away from these concepts as we embrace a more technological world than a natural one.

If our technology and our society falls I have no doubt we will return to these concepts once more. It is a part of human nature. Our history is proof.

[Reek Havoc]

I think that maybe one of the problems is that people are uncomfortable with 'paedophile talk.' How can we debate this fairly if we dismiss certain aspect of the argument simply because they make us uncomfortable? I think it would be better if we didn't simply dismiss ideas but argued against them with evidence and such.

Very true. It's nearly impossible to discuss whether Jorah's advances are creepy or not without discussing the biggest factor in creepiness argument. Having said that, it doesn't seem to me as though the 'pedo talk' is making people uncomfortable. It is, however, proving people wrong, and no one likes that. This topic in particular tends to be something that some people would prefer to remain willfully ignorant about in order for them to hold on to their own personal concepts of right and wrong.

Fact: Jorah is not a pedo. This is as much a fact as anything regarding a fictional character can be. If you believe otherwise, you don't know what pedophilia is. It's not a matter of opinion, you're just wrong.

Pedos are attracted to pre-pubescent children. This has already been argued appropriately by ambi, so I will simply add to it...

Pedos are attracted to pre-pubescent children because they are children. Not in spite of the fact that they are children, but BECAUSE they are children. No amount of age difference can make a man that views the object of his affections as a woman can make him a pedophile. I'll repeat... If you believe that, you don't know pedophilia is.

This is an important factor. At no point did Jorah conduct himself in a way that suggested that he thought of Daenerys as a child. By Westerosi standards, she is not a child in any sense of the word. Even by today's standards, she is a child in age only. Hodor's Dragon argued this point extremely well. I won't waste my time repeating, I'll simply say very well done.

It's also worthwhile to note Jorah's intense attraction to Lynesse. We don't know for certain how old she was but considering how quickly they were married, I think it's safe to say that Lynesse was no child.

There is a distinct age difference between Dany and Jorah, yes. That can be a little off-putting in many societies, but in others it can be quite the norm. She is considered marriable by Westeros standards. That in itself is enough to make it alright by me as far as any fictional relationship may go.

Personally, I view it all as very romantic. He's done nothing but support her, respect her, and basically given up everything to help her while forced to stand aside for other men.

So here's a question for you... if we were talking about one of those cliched movies where the nerdy, supportive nice guy falls in love with the beautiful popular girl and kisses her because he just has to make his feelings known, would you think that was creepy too? Take away the age difference and that's pretty much what we have here (minus the pedo BS. It's simply not there.)

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Jorah is a creeper.

But the whole thing reveals something interesting about Lynesse. Apparently, she looks vaguely Valyrian. This doesn't mean that she is Valyrian, but it makes me wonder whether one of Leyton's former three wives was either Lyseni or a Dayne.

[Kyoshi]

I also don't think Jorah is a pedo. I don't think his attraction to Dany has anything to do with her age. I think it is despite her age, which is the thing that messes with the voices in my head.