Slightly new spin on KotLT/R+L?

[James Arryn]

Actually, I doubt it's new...but I can't find it anywhere. I won't write a huge essay in large part because I assume among the first 3 or 4 replies will be a link to this theory being disproven.

Anyways, a couple of the aspects of the Knight of the Laughing Tree that never hung together for me were about Aerys, and his being convinced it was an enemy, and then later just letting it go.

Consider, Aerys knows a Rhaegar is plotting something. Either as a result of that specific fear or generalized paranoia, he declares the KotLT an enemy, and sends Rhaegar to track down said enemy. Rhaegar returns, says said enemy is gone, and Aerys...drops it?

Does that fit? Is that the Aerys we know? And why does he accept the word of the son he already suspects?

So, here's my theory. The usual, Rhaegar tracks down Lyanna, is impressed, lies to protect her, crowns her, etc.

Except I introduce this element: Aerys may be mad, but he's not stupid. Nor is he easily distracted from potential danger. So assume that he is still VERY interested in the KotLT. Assume w/e reasoning triggered a belief that the Knight was his enemy didn't just go away once the needed R+L meeting occurred, and certainly didn't fail to notice Rhaegar's decision about the Queen of Love and Beauty.

Assume he kept at it. Asked others...maybe KG's?...to look into it further. There's always Varys as an option. Questioned Rhaegar on it repeatedly. Thought about it. Pondered the son he obviously knows pretty well. Added it all up.

Figured it out.

Or close enough, anyways. And then Rhaegar is either confronted with Aerys' conclusions or is tipped off by a KG. Lyanna is in imminent danger, about to be declared an enemy of the crown, or at least 'questioned'.

And Rhaegar sees all the political ramifications of this event. Sees his plans to peacefully depose his father blow up in his face, as at least the North and probably Stormlands will react to the imprisonment/death or torture/questioning of Rickard's daughter. So he can't just send her to her family...war is the inevitable result. He can't let her be questioned or captured...war is the inevitable result. He can't defend her to his father...the coup would probably come undone as he is forced to outright defy his father without the pieces in place to follow that up, and meanwhile confirming Aerys' suspicions that his son has been lying to him.

So, his solution is to repeat the Harrenhall adventure in almost every way. Find Lyanna himself, hide her and protect her, but in a way that endangers as few others as possible. Take her somewhere no one would look for him/her, and at some point begin to gather the threads of the coup together because he's going to need them.

This explains why his father knows nothing, and why he chooses somewhere completely off the grid rather than somewhere like DS.

This explains why Lyanna's 'wolf blood' is at the root of all of it...not, as supposed, because she defies everyone and runs off with Rhaegar, but because she was the KotLT. The KotLT suddenly means more than just When Harry Met Sally, but is in fact the trigger to the entire upheaval. It isn't dropped like a loose thread by a worry-wart like Aerys, nor is the QoLaB overlooked by the same mad-yet-intelligent King.

It explains why that story is never discussed among the Starks, whereas it ought to be a fond memory. Because Ned doesn't see the abduction/elopement as the actual starting point, but in fact Lyanna's noble/brave yet dangerous decision to break social convention and defy the King on behalf of Howland Reed/honour.

It also gives a more direct cause for his concerns about Arya's martial tendencies. Not because it reflects a personality which, in a round-about way, could be argued to have contributed to Lyanna's willingness to run off, but rather because it directly and literally reflects that which made her an enemy of the Mad King and started off the whole dance.

It explains the suddenness of Lyanna being taken. Rhaegar was not suddenly overcome with uncontrollable passion or prophecy a year after their meeting...if it was love or PTWP, Rhaegar is still normally a very methodical man. But if she was in immediate danger, he'd HAVE to act suddenly, and without much consideration.

It even explains why some would interpret this as a mad, rape-fuelled abduction, because Rhaegar is hardly going to take the time to explain his actions while swooping Lyanna out of danger; an objective observer might well suppose this had to be mad passion.

It explains why only his closest friends were involved; because he was not acting against the Starks or Baratheons...in which case he could still count on most of the court supporting him...but against his father, the King. And he needs to husband his political currency for the coup, so he has as few involved as possible.

He probably assumed there would be a furor and confusion...he probably counted on it, to a degree, to cover his tracks and keep his father guessing. He probably wanted to wait until the storm blew over a bit, gather the reins of power and initiate the coup, and his protection of Lyanna would if anything garner him further support from some quarters.

Meanwhile, at the TOJ, either love or prophecy play their role, and he is anticipating even greater benefits from this sequence. He will depose his father peacefully, with as much dignity as possible. He will have the support of the Lords who already looked to him, and now he can also bring forward a daughter of a LP as another benefit of his replacing his mad dad. And now, a wife/mother, all of which points towards the PTWP, which is where Rhaegar normally looks anyway.

And for Lyanna he isn't just this rockstar hottie who isn't hitting on every woman in sight; he's a man willing to put honour/duty ahead of his family, willing to put doing the right thing ahead of doing the easy thing, and willing to put her safety ahead of his own. And it extends the simpatico they had discovered during the original run. And then he tells her his plans, etc. and it all fits.

But Brandon happens, and his father happens, and by the time he finds out it's all spiralled out of control. He thought there would be confusion...but he was mainly interested in how that confusion would affect Aerys. And that worked. But in true GRRM fashion, it also worked too well on Brandon, who unpredictably does not act confused but rather certain...dead certain...of the worst possible interpretation and then just as unpredictably decides to respond by committing suicide a la Mad King...and then his father had someone on whom to focus his fury and attention.

Anyways, this is probably overlooking some obvious points, but to me it fits together in terms of character, logic, and narrative. No other explanation I've heard of addresses Aerys' seeing the KotLT as an enemy, nor his just dropping it when his suspected son says 'sorry'...nor his pondering that same son's Queen of Love and Beauty choice, which fits perfectly with what we know of Rhaegar under those circumstances, and Aerys presumably knows his son even better than we do.

Anyways, wrote longer than I expected...Lincoln quote about laziness...but feel free to tell me where I'm wrong.

[PrettyPig]

I am on board with about 60% of this theory, especially Lyanna's KOTLT stunt kicking off the whole thing by making her a target.

The other 40%....well, if Aerys could figure out the identity of KOTLT, so could others - others who might be willing to manipulate this information to the point that it starts a war between already tense factions.

We are told in the books through others' POVs that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, possibly at swordpoint, but there are no details given or sworn sightings from her entourage, etc. Yet, there was an interesting passage in AGOT when Ned as Hand is holding court in Robert's absense - a peasant approaches the throne and addresses Ned as "Your Grace", and Ned wonders how it can be that someone lives so close to KL and has no idea what his king looks like. Then we have another example of Rorge rampaging the Riverlands wearing the Hound's helm, leading all to believe it is Sandor Clegane doing the raiding.

That got me thinking....did Rhaegar actually kidnap Lyanna?

[James Arryn]

I am on board with about 60% of this theory, especially Lyanna's KOTLT stunt kicking off the whole thing by making her a target.

The other 40%....well, if Aerys could figure out the identity of KOTLT, so could others - others who might be willing to manipulate this information to the point that it starts a war between already tense factions.

We are told in the books through others' POVs that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, possibly at swordpoint, but there are no details given or sworn sightings from her entourage, etc. Yet, there was an interesting passage in AGOT when Ned as Hand is holding court in Robert's absense - a peasant approaches the throne and addresses Ned as "Your Grace", and Ned wonders how it can be that someone lives so close to KL and has no idea what his king looks like. Then we have another example of Rorge rampaging the Riverlands wearing the Hound's helm, leading all to believe it is Sandor Clegane doing the raiding.

That got me thinking....did Rhaegar actually kidnap Lyanna?

Yeah, I think Rhaegar was normally too bright to leave himself that exposed, but the suddenness of this sequence meant he had to act out of character, and that would certainly leave him open to those who wanted to exploit it...particularly those who knew something of the HH plan and would prefer to more personally benefit from it.

My sense is less a misidentification...I think that's possible either way; Dayne or whoever might have actually been the one to approach her even in my version...but more in terms of how the event gets told, and to whom. I have never had an issue with Brandon or Robert considering the whole rape/abduction thing as a possibility. And Robert has obvious interest in settling on that as his explanation. But where did Brandon's certainty come from? He's described as hot-headed, but not stupid. Even if Rhaegar's character is not well known...and it appears it is well known...the idea that X is so certain that Brandon asks no questions at the RK, but instead just wants to kill Rhaegar...that's odd, IMO.

So there's much more mystery there at the heart of it.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

It has always been my assumption that it was Lyanna that perhaps ran away/ contacted Rhaegar for help. She didn't want to marry Robert and was in love with Rhaegar.

There would be a good chance that Robert would have been at Brandon's wedding right? Accompanying Ned and Jon to Riverrun. She probably did not want to see him in case they were married soon as well.

[The guy from the Vale]

This has basically been a running sub-theory in R+L=J for a long time - the idea that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna not mainly because he loved her, or even because of prophetic reasons, but first and foremost because Aerys had found out about her being tKotLT.

I must say I rather like that explanation, because it would mean Rhaegar was trying to prevent the very war that broke out because of his attempt at preventing it.

[PrettyPig]

Brandon's certainty and reaction makes me feel even more strongly that the kidnapping may have been staged, in a "Rhaegar Targaryen will take the fall for this" kind of way. Obviously something had to identify the kidnapper as undoubtedly Rhaegar - black ruby-adorned armor? A dragon helm? A sword? Shouting "I am Prince Rhaegar and you are mine, She-Wolf!" ??

And, in order to enrage Brandon so, the account of the kidnapping must have made it sound pretty brutal...did he put sword to throat? Punch her in the face? Rape her on the spot? It must have been severe to result in a son of Winterfell nearly killing his horse to get to KL and commanding that the Crown Prince "come out and die".

It would seem very out of character for the known Rhaegar to engage in the level of violence expected for that reaction, and it seems hinky that Brandon would commit high treason in such a manner if Lyanna was merely spirited away in the night.

Just thinking of explantions that might cover it - and if Lyanna was actually kidnapped by someone pretending to be Rhaegar, and that abduction was said to be very brutal, it would justify Brandon's response. Plus, once RT heard about this he would know it was a setup and be forced to go into hiding with his KG, go search for Lyanna and her "real kidnapper" (OJ style), whatever.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Brandon's certainty and reaction makes me feel even more strongly that the kidnapping may have been staged, in a "Rhaegar Targaryen will take the fall for this" kind of way. Obviously something had to identify the kidnapper as undoubtedly Rhaegar - black ruby-adorned armor? A dragon helm? A sword? Shouting "I am Prince Rhaegar and you are mine, She-Wolf!" ??

And, in order to enrage Brandon so, the account of the kidnapping must have made it sound pretty brutal...did he put sword to throat? Punch her in the face? Rape her on the spot? It must have been severe to result in a son of Winterfell nearly killing his horse to get to KL and commanding that the Crown Prince "come out and die".

It would seem very out of character for the known Rhaegar to engage in the level of violence expected for that reaction, and it seems hinky that Brandon would commit high treason in such a manner if Lyanna was merely spirited away in the night.

Just thinking of explantions that might cover it - and if Lyanna was actually kidnapped by someone pretending to be Rhaegar, and that abduction was said to be very brutal, it would justify Brandon's response. Plus, once RT heard about this he would know it was a setup and be forced to go into hiding with his KG, go search for Lyanna and her "real kidnapper" (OJ style), whatever.

Brandon was said to have the "Wolf's Blood". It may not have taken a whole lot for him to fly off the handle.

[JoeyBanana]

I like it.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is Rhaegar not trying to inform the Starks and Robert if he was so determined to prevent a war. Unless Brandon got the news before Rhaegar could contact him and his "wolf's blood" did the rest. But then there's still all the others like Rickard or Jon Arryn.

Maybe that is why Rickard went south without calling his banners and so unprepared. He knew the truth and tried to safe his son without causing a war because he was aware of Rhaegar's plans. It obviously backfired but it explains his "stupid" move to completely expose himself to Aerys and also why he demanded a trial.

[The guy from the Vale]

I like it.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is Rhaegar not trying to inform the Starks and Robert if he was so determined to prevent a war. Unless Brandon got the news before Rhaegar could contact him and his "wolf's blood" did the rest. But then there's still all the others like Rickard or Jon Arryn.

Maybe that is why Rickard went south without calling his banners and so unprepared. He knew the truth and tried to safe his son without causing a war because he was aware of Rhaegar's plans. It obviously backfired but it explains his "stupid" move to completely expose himself to Aerys and also why he demanded a trial.

He might have tried to inform Rickard... wouldn't have helped with Brandon if the latter didn't get that message in time.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

I like it.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is Rhaegar not trying to inform the Starks and Robert if he was so determined to prevent a war. Unless Brandon got the news before Rhaegar could contact him and his "wolf's blood" did the rest. But then there's still all the others like Rickard or Jon Arryn.

Maybe that is why Rickard went south without calling his banners and so unprepared. He knew the truth and tried to safe his son without causing a war because he was aware of Rhaegar's plans. It obviously backfired but it explains his "stupid" move to completely expose himself to Aerys and also why he demanded a trial.

Its my feeling that is was a combo of 2 things:

1: Rhaegar (like any Prince) is going to somewhat arrogant and think that he can smooth anything over if he tries hard enough. He probably thought that yes this will probably cause some problems but "what are they going to do"

2: Rhaegar had no way of knowing that Brandon would fly off of the handle and demand his head, and especially that Aerys would go full blown mad king and light everybody on fire and then demand the heads of Ned and Robert.

This is an age of Ravens for communication, Rhaegar couldn't just pop on over explain everything and fix it all. by the time everything happened it was too late to fix anything.

[JoeyBanana]

Its my feeling that is was a combo of 2 things:

1: Rhaegar (like any Prince) is going to somewhat arrogant and think that he can smooth anything over if he tries hard enough. He probably thought that yes this will probably cause some problems but "what are they going to do"

2: Rhaegar had no way of knowing that Brandon would fly off of the handle and demand his head, and especially that Aerys would go full blown mad king and light everybody on fire and then demand the heads of Ned and Robert.

This is an age of Ravens for communication, Rhaegar couldn't just pop on over explain everything and fix it all. by the time everything happened it was too late to fix anything.

Well, that's where the "Rhaegar trying to depose Aerys" and "Rhaegar being ignorant of Aerys' true madness" theories collide. It's got to be one or the other. If he had to hide Lyanna to save her, then he must have known how insane Aerys already was. If he'd be the ignorant and arrogant "i got this!" prince, he'd try to convince his father of Lyanna's innocence/harmlessness. The KotlT presents a far smaller threat to Aerys than a Lord PM being furious about his daughter's disappearance. Again, if he had to hide Lyanna because of Aerys, he can't possibly believe that an angry Lord Paramount (or son) would not be seen as an enemy by his father.

He needs to contact the Starks and explain that Lyanna is safe. If he assumes that a dead Lyanna will spark a rebellion, than he must have known that an obducted Lyanna means war aswell.

And one raven from a secret location to Winterfell is enough to explain everything to Rickard. He would have had some time aswell as i imagine news of Brandon's capture would also get to WF by raven. That's why i assumed Rickard may have known as his actions could indicate that he was aware of Rhaegar's intentions behind taking Lyanna and he abandoned WF without preparing for war to save his son and solve the situation peacefully.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Well, that's where the "Rhaegar trying to depose Aerys" and "Rhaegar being ignorant of Aerys' true madness" theories collide. It's got to be one or the other. If he had to hide Lyanna to save her, then he must have known how insane Aerys already was. If he'd be the ignorant and arrogant "i got this!" prince, he'd try to convince his father of Lyanna's innocence/harmlessness. The KotlT presents a far smaller threat to Aerys than a Lord PM being furious about his daughter's disappearance. Again, if he had to hide Lyanna because of Aerys, he can't possibly believe that an angry Lord Paramount (or son) would not be seen as an enemy by his father.

He needs to contact the Starks and explain that Lyanna is safe. If he assumes that a dead Lyanna will spark a rebellion, than he must have known that an obducted Lyanna means war aswell.

And one raven from a secret location to Winterfell is enough to explain everything to Rickard. He would have had some time aswell as i imagine news of Brandon's capture would also get to WF by raven. That's why i assumed Rickard may have known as his actions could indicate that he was aware of Rhaegar's intentions behind taking Lyanna and he abandoned WF without preparing for war to save his son and solve the situation peacefully.

He would need a Raven from Winterfell to send a Raven to Winterfell. They just don't go where you tell them to go.

[JoeyBanana]

Then it's a messenger, it's not really important and wasn't my point.

Rhaegar's attempt to inform the Starks failed somehow (or it died with Rickard) because it doesn't make sense that he wouldn't try to do it in this scenario. That's all i'm saying.

[Ashkhen]

I kind of love this take on KotLT/R+L. I'm sure it's been around in the R+L=J threads, but it's nice to see it presented so well here.

Like with others, a problem with this scenario is that the Starks were uninformed about it... But I'll buy that Rhaegar tried and it failed.

Did the Starks know that Aerys was so riled up about the KotLT and might still try to track that person down? Did they take any preventative actions?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

*snip

As theguyfromthevale said, this has been a sub topic of RLJ for some time, but kudos to you for writing it up so thoroughly :)

It makes a lot of sense to me, and while there are probably quite a few directions one could go in response to your post, I'd like to offer an Arthurian parallel that for me was the catalyst for considering this idea.

In some versions Arthurian legend, Gwynhyvar is condemned to death by the King (Arthur) for the crime of adultery. The key here is the (perceived) crime against the crown and the sentence of death. The manner of death in legend was to be burning, but at the last minute Lancelot rescued her from her fate and took her to his castle for safety. The name of the castle... Joyous Gard... for me had strong resonances for the Tower of Joy. I have written about the parallels here.

As you say, the consequences of the King seizing the daughter of a Lord Paramount would have been dire and if Lyanna's impulsive action in being the KotLT led to this chain of events, we have a perfect explanation for why her wolf blood led her to an early grave.

[Salazor Ahai Stormborn]

Actually, I doubt it's new...but I can't find it anywhere. I won't write a huge essay in large part because I assume among the first 3 or 4 replies will be a link to this theory being disproven.

Anyways, a couple of the aspects of the Knight of the Laughing Tree that never hung together for me were about Aerys, and his being convinced it was an enemy, and then later just letting it go.

Consider, Aerys knows a Rhaegar is plotting something. Either as a result of that specific fear or generalized paranoia, he declares the KotLT an enemy, and sends Rhaegar to track down said enemy. Rhaegar returns, says said enemy is gone, and Aerys...drops it?

Does that fit? Is that the Aerys we know? And why does he accept the word of the son he already suspects?

So, here's my theory. The usual, Rhaegar tracks down Lyanna, is impressed, lies to protect her, crowns her, etc.

Except I introduce this element: Aerys may be mad, but he's not stupid. Nor is he easily distracted from potential danger. So assume that he is still VERY interested in the KotLT. Assume w/e reasoning triggered a belief that the Knight was his enemy didn't just go away once the needed R+L meeting occurred, and certainly didn't fail to notice Rhaegar's decision about the Queen of Love and Beauty.

Assume he kept at it. Asked others...maybe KG's?...to look into it further. There's always Varys as an option. Questioned Rhaegar on it repeatedly. Thought about it. Pondered the son he obviously knows pretty well. Added it all up.

Figured it out.

Or close enough, anyways. And then Rhaegar is either confronted with Aerys' conclusions or is tipped off by a KG. Lyanna is in imminent danger, about to be declared an enemy of the crown, or at least 'questioned'.

And Rhaegar sees all the political ramifications of this event. Sees his plans to peacefully depose his father blow up in his face, as at least the North and probably Stormlands will react to the imprisonment/death or torture/questioning of Rickard's daughter. So he can't just send her to her family...war is the inevitable result. He can't let her be questioned or captured...war is the inevitable result. He can't defend her to his father...the coup would probably come undone as he is forced to outright defy his father without the pieces in place to follow that up, and meanwhile confirming Aerys' suspicions that his son has been lying to him.

So, his solution is to repeat the Harrenhall adventure in almost every way. Find Lyanna himself, hide her and protect her, but in a way that endangers as few others as possible. Take her somewhere no one would look for him/her, and at some point begin to gather the threads of the coup together because he's going to need them.

This explains why his father knows nothing, and why he chooses somewhere completely off the grid rather than somewhere like DS.

This explains why Lyanna's 'wolf blood' is at the root of all of it...not, as supposed, because she defies everyone and runs off with Rhaegar, but because she was the KotLT. The KotLT suddenly means more than just When Harry Met Sally, but is in fact the trigger to the entire upheaval. It isn't dropped like a loose thread by a worry-wart like Aerys, nor is the QoLaB overlooked by the same mad-yet-intelligent King.

It explains why that story is never discussed among the Starks, whereas it ought to be a fond memory. Because Ned doesn't see the abduction/elopement as the actual starting point, but in fact Lyanna's noble/brave yet dangerous decision to break social convention and defy the King on behalf of Howland Reed/honour.

It also gives a more direct cause for his concerns about Arya's martial tendencies. Not because it reflects a personality which, in a round-about way, could be argued to have contributed to Lyanna's willingness to run off, but rather because it directly and literally reflects that which made her an enemy of the Mad King and started off the whole dance.

It explains the suddenness of Lyanna being taken. Rhaegar was not suddenly overcome with uncontrollable passion or prophecy a year after their meeting...if it was love or PTWP, Rhaegar is still normally a very methodical man. But if she was in immediate danger, he'd HAVE to act suddenly, and without much consideration.

It even explains why some would interpret this as a mad, rape-fuelled abduction, because Rhaegar is hardly going to take the time to explain his actions while swooping Lyanna out of danger; an objective observer might well suppose this had to be mad passion.

It explains why only his closest friends were involved; because he was not acting against the Starks or Baratheons...in which case he could still count on most of the court supporting him...but against his father, the King. And he needs to husband his political currency for the coup, so he has as few involved as possible.

He probably assumed there would be a furor and confusion...he probably counted on it, to a degree, to cover his tracks and keep his father guessing. He probably wanted to wait until the storm blew over a bit, gather the reins of power and initiate the coup, and his protection of Lyanna would if anything garner him further support from some quarters.

Meanwhile, at the TOJ, either love or prophecy play their role, and he is anticipating even greater benefits from this sequence. He will depose his father peacefully, with as much dignity as possible. He will have the support of the Lords who already looked to him, and now he can also bring forward a daughter of a LP as another benefit of his replacing his mad dad. And now, a wife/mother, all of which points towards the PTWP, which is where Rhaegar normally looks anyway.

And for Lyanna he isn't just this rockstar hottie who isn't hitting on every woman in sight; he's a man willing to put honour/duty ahead of his family, willing to put doing the right thing ahead of doing the easy thing, and willing to put her safety ahead of his own. And it extends the simpatico they had discovered during the original run. And then he tells her his plans, etc. and it all fits.

But Brandon happens, and his father happens, and by the time he finds out it's all spiralled out of control. He thought there would be confusion...but he was mainly interested in how that confusion would affect Aerys. And that worked. But in true GRRM fashion, it also worked too well on Brandon, who unpredictably does not act confused but rather certain...dead certain...of the worst possible interpretation and then just as unpredictably decides to respond by committing suicide a la Mad King...and then his father had someone on whom to focus his fury and attention.

Anyways, this is probably overlooking some obvious points, but to me it fits together in terms of character, logic, and narrative. No other explanation I've heard of addresses Aerys' seeing the KotLT as an enemy, nor his just dropping it when his suspected son says 'sorry'...nor his pondering that same son's Queen of Love and Beauty choice, which fits perfectly with what we know of Rhaegar under those circumstances, and Aerys presumably knows his son even better than we do.

Anyways, wrote longer than I expected...Lincoln quote about laziness...but feel free to tell me where I'm wrong.

This is what I believe and explains a lot.

Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna doesn't make any sense, especially the "third head of the dragon" theory, how could he know if Lyanna was fertile? Also, why leave his 3 month old son behind, the one whose song is TSOIAF? It was not Lyanna who was going to get married, it was Brandon... R and L met briefly in Harrenhal and after that Elia was again pregnant, with Aegon. It's so OOC for Rhaegar to kidnap a girl he met more than a year ago just to have more kids.

[Kingmonkey]

Although I find the general thesis attractive, I have real problems with the lack of communication issue. Brandon rushing off before he could be filled in, no problem. Follow up to Rickard missed, possibly. The entire war passing without Ned and Robert being told "She's over here, she's not my prisoner and never has been, I'm trying to get rid of Aerys too, let's chat"? That's the problem for me. Still, it could have happened something like this...

Dear Dad.

I hope this letter gets to you before you leave Winterfell! If it does not, and it's you reading it, Ned, then stop. Burn the letter. If things have got to that stage, you don't want to know this. Stop right now, burn the letter, forget it. Promise me you'll do that, Ned. Promise me. Oh and Benjen? If it's you? You know what I'm going to do to you.

So, there's been this terrible mix up! You won't believe it. First off, I am NOT KIDNAPPED by Rhaegar! Seriously, like me? Kidnapped? wtf???!! Rhaegar told me that the Mad King has got some stick up his butt about us Starks, and the king's men were coming for me!! Can you believe? So he told me there's a place I can hide out with him for a while. So we went there together. He's helping me, dad! You guys can totes come and visit and see for yourselves, it's cool, I promise. RhaeRhae says I shouldn't tell you where it is in the letter in case the raven gets intercepted, which sucks! But it's really nice here! Sooo sunny. I don't mind passing my time in the prince's tower at all! Really it's a joy here, with those pretty red mountains in the background, eating the yummy Dornish cuisine!

And Benjy was SUPPOSED to tell you and Bran. Anyways, so we got a raven from Starfall, and Asha, you remember Asha, who the boys were all drooling about, she tells me BENJY IS THERE! O M G !! He completely forgot to tell you, and I told him it was really really important. Srsly, I was all like "Benjy, this is like MEGA important. You gots to tell Bran and Dad, or there will be SUCH a mess, so you go now, straight away now, no stalking that Dayne chick, GO! Or I'll send you to the Wall, and I totally mean it?" But you know Benjy.

So, RhaeRhae says, DO NOT GO TO KING'S LANDING! Cos the king is all... he's gonna get us Starks, right? And Bran is like his hostage, which sucks, but it means Bran's ok if you don't go there. If you go, the Mad King is gonna kill you both! And then you know how it is, Ned and Bobby will call the banners and stuff, and who knows how this mess is gonna end!

See Rhaegar's gonna depose the Mad King anyway! So as soon as he does that, Bran's gonna be free. You guys get ready to back him, ok? Don't let Ned and Bob do anything crazy, cos you know what the boys are like, all testosterone! Hey, doesn't that sound like one of those pasta dishes like from Braavos? Ey, I'll hava plate a testosterone an' cheese, grazie! Anyway, point is, it's all okay! If the boys start some kind of rebellion or something before RhaeRhae is ready, well... know what? I better write them a letter too, just to make sure of this. Love you lots and see you soon, but I better go and get those other letters done right away, because Ozzy and Art have been writing letters home every single week (losers!) and we're almost completely run out of in

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I love this, and I'm new enough where I've never seen this discussed on the R+L=J threads (perhaps consider adding it to the OP?).

The lack of communication is explained by the ToJ having no maester and no ravens (I have seen others talk about having to go to Starfall for communications, yes), and the necessity of Aerys never learning Lyanna's whereabouts. And I bet he never did, not even when Rhaegar (finally) returned to KL. We don't really have any indication in the text that Rhaegar didn't trust court players like Varys, but he grew up there and would know the importance of keeping information secret.

It would also explain why 1) KOLT story is never told in Winterfell, as it's where the trouble began, and 2) why Lya's crowning as QoLaB was when all the smiles died. The timeline never worked for me without this puzzle piece.

(This part of the story works for me. What does not work for me is Rhaegar's failure to either move Elia and the children to Dragonstone or send them to Dorne after he'd spent so much time and effort protecting Lyanna. But that's another thread -- I need to know more about how much power, if any, the Prince of Dragonstone/heir apparent had under the Targ monarchs. I know he was subject to the king, but he was his father's son all his life and clearly quite intelligent -- surely, if he thought up all this, he could have thought about his family. Just a thought -- I'm a Targ stan, but Elia's death and the deaths of her children really bother me.)

[Ellfoy]

Kingmonkey : That letter ---> :lmao: :lmao: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[lareine]

Actually, I doubt it's new...but I can't find it anywhere. I won't write a huge essay in large part because I assume among the first 3 or 4 replies will be a link to this theory being disproven.

Anyways, a couple of the aspects of the Knight of the Laughing Tree that never hung together for me were about Aerys, and his being convinced it was an enemy, and then later just letting it go.

Consider, Aerys knows a Rhaegar is plotting something. Either as a result of that specific fear or generalized paranoia, he declares the KotLT an enemy, and sends Rhaegar to track down said enemy. Rhaegar returns, says said enemy is gone, and Aerys...drops it?

Does that fit? Is that the Aerys we know? And why does he accept the word of the son he already suspects?

So, here's my theory. The usual, Rhaegar tracks down Lyanna, is impressed, lies to protect her, crowns her, etc.

Except I introduce this element: Aerys may be mad, but he's not stupid. Nor is he easily distracted from potential danger. So assume that he is still VERY interested in the KotLT. Assume w/e reasoning triggered a belief that the Knight was his enemy didn't just go away once the needed R+L meeting occurred, and certainly didn't fail to notice Rhaegar's decision about the Queen of Love and Beauty.

Assume he kept at it. Asked others...maybe KG's?...to look into it further. There's always Varys as an option. Questioned Rhaegar on it repeatedly. Thought about it. Pondered the son he obviously knows pretty well. Added it all up.

Figured it out.

Or close enough, anyways. And then Rhaegar is either confronted with Aerys' conclusions or is tipped off by a KG. Lyanna is in imminent danger, about to be declared an enemy of the crown, or at least 'questioned'.

And Rhaegar sees all the political ramifications of this event. Sees his plans to peacefully depose his father blow up in his face, as at least the North and probably Stormlands will react to the imprisonment/death or torture/questioning of Rickard's daughter. So he can't just send her to her family...war is the inevitable result. He can't let her be questioned or captured...war is the inevitable result. He can't defend her to his father...the coup would probably come undone as he is forced to outright defy his father without the pieces in place to follow that up, and meanwhile confirming Aerys' suspicions that his son has been lying to him.

So, his solution is to repeat the Harrenhall adventure in almost every way. Find Lyanna himself, hide her and protect her, but in a way that endangers as few others as possible. Take her somewhere no one would look for him/her, and at some point begin to gather the threads of the coup together because he's going to need them.

This explains why his father knows nothing, and why he chooses somewhere completely off the grid rather than somewhere like DS.

This explains why Lyanna's 'wolf blood' is at the root of all of it...not, as supposed, because she defies everyone and runs off with Rhaegar, but because she was the KotLT. The KotLT suddenly means more than just When Harry Met Sally, but is in fact the trigger to the entire upheaval. It isn't dropped like a loose thread by a worry-wart like Aerys, nor is the QoLaB overlooked by the same mad-yet-intelligent King.

It explains why that story is never discussed among the Starks, whereas it ought to be a fond memory. Because Ned doesn't see the abduction/elopement as the actual starting point, but in fact Lyanna's noble/brave yet dangerous decision to break social convention and defy the King on behalf of Howland Reed/honour.

It also gives a more direct cause for his concerns about Arya's martial tendencies. Not because it reflects a personality which, in a round-about way, could be argued to have contributed to Lyanna's willingness to run off, but rather because it directly and literally reflects that which made her an enemy of the Mad King and started off the whole dance.

It explains the suddenness of Lyanna being taken. Rhaegar was not suddenly overcome with uncontrollable passion or prophecy a year after their meeting...if it was love or PTWP, Rhaegar is still normally a very methodical man. But if she was in immediate danger, he'd HAVE to act suddenly, and without much consideration.

It even explains why some would interpret this as a mad, rape-fuelled abduction, because Rhaegar is hardly going to take the time to explain his actions while swooping Lyanna out of danger; an objective observer might well suppose this had to be mad passion.

It explains why only his closest friends were involved; because he was not acting against the Starks or Baratheons...in which case he could still count on most of the court supporting him...but against his father, the King. And he needs to husband his political currency for the coup, so he has as few involved as possible.

He probably assumed there would be a furor and confusion...he probably counted on it, to a degree, to cover his tracks and keep his father guessing. He probably wanted to wait until the storm blew over a bit, gather the reins of power and initiate the coup, and his protection of Lyanna would if anything garner him further support from some quarters.

Meanwhile, at the TOJ, either love or prophecy play their role, and he is anticipating even greater benefits from this sequence. He will depose his father peacefully, with as much dignity as possible. He will have the support of the Lords who already looked to him, and now he can also bring forward a daughter of a LP as another benefit of his replacing his mad dad. And now, a wife/mother, all of which points towards the PTWP, which is where Rhaegar normally looks anyway.

And for Lyanna he isn't just this rockstar hottie who isn't hitting on every woman in sight; he's a man willing to put honour/duty ahead of his family, willing to put doing the right thing ahead of doing the easy thing, and willing to put her safety ahead of his own. And it extends the simpatico they had discovered during the original run. And then he tells her his plans, etc. and it all fits.

But Brandon happens, and his father happens, and by the time he finds out it's all spiralled out of control. He thought there would be confusion...but he was mainly interested in how that confusion would affect Aerys. And that worked. But in true GRRM fashion, it also worked too well on Brandon, who unpredictably does not act confused but rather certain...dead certain...of the worst possible interpretation and then just as unpredictably decides to respond by committing suicide a la Mad King...and then his father had someone on whom to focus his fury and attention.

Anyways, this is probably overlooking some obvious points, but to me it fits together in terms of character, logic, and narrative. No other explanation I've heard of addresses Aerys' seeing the KotLT as an enemy, nor his just dropping it when his suspected son says 'sorry'...nor his pondering that same son's Queen of Love and Beauty choice, which fits perfectly with what we know of Rhaegar under those circumstances, and Aerys presumably knows his son even better than we do.

Anyways, wrote longer than I expected...Lincoln quote about laziness...but feel free to tell me where I'm wrong.

I've always liked this theory, to me it just makes so much more sense on so many different levels. More then anything, it seems more consistent with what we know so far about R&L's characters. You've done a very thorough job of explaining it, the most thorough explanation of the theory I've seen yet.

I have to agree with some of the other posters, the one hitch I can see is why they didn't try to reach Ned & Robert to let them know that Lyanna was okay. But for me, it's the same issue I've had with the popular elopement theories. If Lyanna went willingly, why did they chose to remain completely off the grid for almost an entire year? I often wonder if their messages weren't being intercepted in someway that they didn't know about until it was too late, but that's just my speculation.

As theguyfromthevale said, this has been a sub topic of RLJ for some time, but kudos to you for writing it up so thoroughly :)

It makes a lot of sense to me, and while there are probably quite a few directions one could go in response to your post, I'd like to offer an Arthurian parallel that for me was the catalyst for considering this idea.

In some versions Arthurian legend, Gwynhyvar is condemned to death by the King (Arthur) for the crime of adultery. The key here is the (perceived) crime against the crown and the sentence of death. The manner of death in legend was to be burning, but at the last minute Lancelot rescued her from her fate and took her to his castle for safety. The name of the castle... Joyous Gard... for me had strong resonances for the Tower of Joy. I have written about the parallels here.

As you say, the consequences of the King seizing the daughter of a Lord Paramount would have been dire and if Lyanna's impulsive action in being the KotLT led to this chain of events, we have a perfect explanation for why her wolf blood led her to an early grave.

Interesting about the Arthurian parallels!