Heresy 128

[Black Crow]

I've wondered about that split between Ice and Fire as well. . . because it seems there are more than 2 elements at work in Westeros, and we shouldn't cut out the other ones (the Reed's oath appears to serve as a reminder of this). They appear to be separate, but really they are part of the same. . . "the land is one."

...Another component I keep coming back to is the next part of the Jojen quote. . . 'If ice can burn, then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh , it makes no matter. The land is one."

If we are thinking of of one magic filtered by its users through Ice or Fire according to circumstances or choice, then perhaps as we discussed a long time ago ultimately this isn't a question of a conflict between Ice and Fire, but rather as the Maesters may be arguing, the destruction of all magic.

[Eira Seren]

If we are thinking of of one magic filtered by its users through Ice or Fire according to circumstances or choice, then perhaps as we discussed a long time ago ultimately this isn't a question of a conflict between Ice and Fire, but rather as the Maesters may be arguing, the destruction of all magic.

Yet if like the rest of the elements, magic can't be separated from the land (or if they try to destroy it entirely), then what kind of balance is likely to result?

[Black Crow]

That might be tied up with the bittersweet ending - the death of magic.

[Eira Seren]

That's true. Maybe it goes back to the question of whether or not the settlers on Westeros have been doing well enough without magic (or think they have, since magic really hasn't disappeared) and assume they will again. I do think, however, that any Maesters (or anyone else) advocating for it's destruction may be missing the boat.

Of course, this isn't LOTR where the land depends on certain kinds of magic to help prevent decay.

[redriver]

I think that the shadow baby making process isn't without cost to either parental unit, so it's not just poor Mel. Just making 2 shadow babies resulted in a really noticeable dent in Stannis' overall health and robustness, such that Mel didn't try to make any more with him lest she do him irreparable harm.

And while she is nicely glamored to appear youthful and invulnerable, her POV chapter hints that all this succubus activity wears her down a bit as well. That's probably why she stayed up at the Wall instead of going down to fight with Stannis at Winterfell, so she could take advantage of her increased power by the Wall and restore whatever got used up in previous efforts. The handsome young Lord Commander is certainly a bonus incentive, I'm sure.

Hints in the Mel POV that she may have made a little Shadow Baby with Mance.

"Soft as a woman's kiss.Your kiss."

[Black Crow]

Hints in the Mel POV that she may have made a little Shadow Baby with Mance.

"Soft as a woman's kiss.Your kiss."

But why and to kill who? On both occasions thus far it was an immediate kill - or might she have created a black ice shadow which is still out there somewhere?

[Eira Seren]

not to derail this discussion, but I'm going to go ahead and post Part III of my Heaney essay. As always, if it's not your cup of tea, feel free to skip!

Part I and Part II, for reference.

Part III The Body in the Bog

As suggested in Seamus Heaney’s Bogland, the earth turns up any number of things. The National Museum of Ireland displays an array of items—weapons, utensils and yes, even butter. Like the eerily preserved bog bodies these objects speak to us, making the past visible in glimpses. In an interview with David W. McCullough, Heaney says, “It seemed to me that bogs had great symbolic possibilities residing in them and not forced upon them by poetic invention. They have a memory" (McCullough, 80). As does snow and ice, the bog preserves, and for Heaney it is both the symbolic and the physical object that commingle. When we delve, alongside the bodies and butter we find memory.

In Martin’s series, the past manifests itself in the usual ways, but like a body rising out of the bog memory is preserved and comes to the surface. As discussed in Part II, the bones in Jon’s dreams of the Winterfell crypt give rise to memories, which are able to speak to Jon in the form of the old Stark kings. A kind of fusion between symbolic and object take place. Martin takes it a step further at the deepest point Jon ventures in the tombs, when memory itself literally manifests in the ghostly appearance of Grey Wind. Where Jon has access to the bones and memory through warging, the Singers use a much richer combination of methods—a Heaney-style fusion—to access memory.

In ASOIAF the Singers’ use the weirnet to see various points in time (memories), but part of what fuels it is their songs. Their language is described as a musical reflection of the natural world and the Singers themselves, ”sounding like a song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water,” (World of Ice & Fire, quoted in Black Crow, Heresy 115, post 192). Singing is how the Singers speak. The songs are also connected to memory. Like the Winterfell crypts, the Singer’s cave contains bones, which combined with the weirwoods, serve as the reservoir for their memories. On first entering the caves, Bran notices them:

"Bones," said Bran. "It's bones." The floor of the passage was littered with the bones . . . small, queerly formed. Children of the forest. The roots had grown in and around and through them, every one. A few had ravens perched atop them, watching them pass with bright black eyes. (ADWD, 13, Bran).

The bones line the cave so that the earth, like a bog, holds the memories. The Singers’ songs also “drift up from someplace far below,” rising up from deeper chambers and echoing through the chambers where the roots can absorb them (ADWD, 33, Bran). Thinking again about Heaney’s Bone Dreams and the manner in which the past speaks to the persona through language (accessed through the bone he finds in the field), it becomes evident how and why the Singers are able to play such a vital role in ASOIAF, albeit one that most men, including the living Starks, have forgotten. Singers are able to access both the past and their lifeforce through the bone-white weirwoods at the level of language (their songs). Much like the bones in Heaney’s poem, we find the memories of all the Singers, living and dead, past and present.

Leaf tells Bran that the dead Singers have "gone down into the earth. . . Into the stones, into the trees.” (ADWD, 33, Bran). Jojen similarly explains that

A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. . . The man who never reads lives only one. The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. (ADWD, 33, Bran)

The bones in the cave and the weirwoods contain a potent concoction: history, spells, songs, memory and language. The cave is the intersection where the bones and songs commingle; the tree roots reach down into the earth, wicking it all up and preserving the memories.

The cave, bones and weirwoods are the Singer’s ban-hus. Like Heaney’s, it is not a dead body, but creative and capable of “generation” (Bone Dreams, line 45). The cauldron in the mead-hall of Bone Dreams is not empty. The poet has invoked philology and kennings and is opening the door to bring the memories and past back into the present, to be revitalized and transformed. In ASOIAF, the ban-hus and cauldron metaphors have similar potential. The combination of weirwoods, bones and spells, operate like a kenning, or a key to unlock the gate to memory. Add the songs of living Singers, and a collective consciousness is created, making the past accessible to the Singers and even greenseers. And like Heaney’s cauldron, we can also expect the weirwoods, memories and songs to do something more.

It’s no coincidence that the Singers are able to make memory manifest, akin to Jon’s dreamed experience where Grey Wind’s spirit appears in the Winterfell crypt. Everything that makes the Singers the Singers –the songs, history, magic and memories—are not only preserved but made fantastically present through language (singing the songs). When Bran discovers a Singer’s presence in the raven he skinchanges, Brynden explains that she is "Long dead, yet a part of her remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy's flesh were to die upon the morrow. A shadow on the soul” (ADWD, 33, Bran). As I suggested before, warging for Jon is like a loophole, a place where man and wolf and Stark can meet. Warging and skinchanging are two sides of the same coin, and I suspect that it works for the Singers, too. Memory, weirwood and song—everything that makes up the Singer’s accessed memories—combine to create a place on the magical map where memory gives rise to preserved parts of the Singers themselves – their spirits.

This concept isn’t isolated to fantasy or Ireland or Irish poets, ecological or postcolonial theories. Robin Laing (known to some as the Whiskey Bard) has made study and song of Scotland’s finest beverage (another kind of spirit). One of the key ingredients for each blend is the water, which frequently contributes the peaty flavors of the surrounding land. In a little love song to uisge beaha, Laing writes:

Take clear water from the hill and barley from the lowlands,

take a master craftman’s skill and something harder to define,

like secrets in the shape of coppered stills, or the slow, silent magic work of time.

Bring home sherry casks from Spain, Sanlucar de Barrameda,

and fill them up again with the spirit of the land

then let the wood work to the spirit’s gain in a process no one fully understands.

For the spirit starts out clear, but see the transformation

after many patient years, when at last the tale unfolds

the colors of the season will appear, from palest yellow to the deepest gold.

When you hold it in your hand, it’s the pulse of one small nation-

so much more than just a dram. You can see it, if you will-

the people and the weather and the land. The past into the present is distilled.

Chorus: Whiskey, you’re the devil in disguise, at least to some that’s the way it seems,

but you’re more like an angel in my eyes

Catch the heady vapours as they rise,

and turn them into {final: peaceful, pleasant} dreams

Robin Laing, ‘More Than Just a Dram’ from The Angels’ Share, 1997

(A snippet of the song)

Sounds like a song for the Singers! Heaney might appreciate that uisge (the Scots-Gaelic spelling of uisce) has again become the place on the map “where the spirit might find a loophole” (Beowulf, xxiv-xxv). The essence of “the people and the weather and the land”—Scottishness—has gone into the dram of whiskey (Laing, line 12). What is also “distilled” for Laing is “the past,” preserved through a sort of magic and accessible when we partake of a glass (line 12). Past is brought forward into the present, allowing us to refashion “dreams” for the future (line 16). Laing calls it the past; Heaney calls it memory. Both resurface from the land, rising up from the peat just as Martin’s Singers call up memory, language and song to infuse the ravens, weirwoods, rocks and stones – their ban-hus—with their spirits.

****

Accessing their memories not only ensures the Singer’s survival, but is essential to their ability to interact fully with the world. It also seems that they will play a vital role in the survival of men and of the North. For a moment, let’s revisit the cave. Lined with the bones of the Singers, it also contains

other bones as well, big ones that must have come from giants and small ones that could have been from children. On either side of them, in niches carved from the stone, skulls looked down on them. Bran saw a bear skull and a wolf skull, half a dozen human skulls and near as many giants. (ADWD, 13, Bran)

What are we to make of these bones belonging to animals –bears and wolves, humans and giants? If the Singers use their own bones to preserve and access their memories and regenerate their spirits, then they must be doing so with other memories as well. In her thread, Those Who Sing, Wolfmaid7 states that

The language of the earth is a symphony of varied songs and those songs are magical in nature. Connected intimately are the Old races that consist of the COTF, Giants, Crows, Direwolves, Weirwood trees and possibly the White Walkers. Anything that has a magical song. . . . The Songs of certain characters are a language linking the Old Races to those sensitive enough in the realm of man to perceive the language. Which means there is a potential opportunity for communication from the Old Powers or infiltration by the Old powers to achieve a desired end. (post 1).

Wolfmaid7 points out that in Martin’s world, songs are magical, “varied” languages that connect the speaker to a larger, encompassing “symphony” belonging to the earth itself (Wolfmaid7, Those Who Sing, post 1). While we generally attribute this language to the Singers, who name themselves “those who sing the song of earth” and speak what they call “the True Tongue that no human man could speak,” Wolfmaid7 asserts that the songs of earth are spoken by other individuals as well (ADWD, 33, Bran). Bran discovers that “the ravens [can] speak it” and Wolfmaid7 lists the Giants and Direwolves as well, whose bones are found on the floor of the Singer’s cave (33, Bran). The Singers are preserving the memories of the Old races as well as animals, making them part of the ban-hus.

It appears the Singers are accessing the memories of each of the creatures through the bones, and uploading them to the weirnet using the songs. JNR, in Heresy 121 states that the weirwoods “are the immortal repositories of Westeros' memory,” which expands the Singer’s sphere beyond the caves and even the North (post 363). I suspect that once the Singers went North of the Wall it became increasingly important for them to preserve what they could of the Old Races’ memories before they all died out. It also seems possible that the Singers have been preserving these memories all along as part of the fuel for their earth magic, and certainly has some interesting implications for what might be happening on the Isle of Faces. Wolfmaid7 suggests that any individual who has a song may be of interest to the Singers. Taken together with JNR’s assessment, we see why: all of those that Wolfmaid7 identifies as song-singers are part of the North, and of Westeros. The land is the ban-hus, the body in the bog is the collective memory and preserved spirits of the earth.

While the series hints that the focus will be on the interplay of ice and fire, the Singers have access to the memories of other creatures, among them members of the Old races, giving them the corner market on the songs of earth. They may be dying, but something tells me they still have a vital role to play before the end, and it may have something to do with preserving the North, or even Westeros itself. Song and language are intimately tied to memories and to the ban-hus. For a fresh illustration, here’s a short poem by Seamus Heaney:

Broagh

Riverbank, the long rigs
ending in broad docken
and a canopied pad
down to the ford.

The garden mould
bruised easily, the shower
gathering in your heelmark
was the black O

in Broagh,
its low tattoo
among the windy boortrees
and rhubarb-blades

ended almost
suddenly, like that last
gh the strangers found
difficult to manage.

Situated at the ford (a potential place of loopholes, where the river can be more easily crossed), the name of the place reflects the natural world. From the “low tattoo” of the wind in the trees and foliage, to “the shower / gathering in your heelmark” that is “the black O // in Broagh,” physical place and language are intricately linked (Broagh, lines 10, 6-9, emphasis mine). And like the Singer’s unlearnable True Tongue, the “last gh the strangers found difficult to manage” resists newcomer’s efforts to conquer it and separate language from the land (lines 14-16). The Singers shelter the bones and memories of the Old races and other individuals in their ban-hus, making them a part of it and part of regeneration because they are essential not only to the Singers, but to sustaining the North and Westeros itself. The land is the ban-hus, the body in the bog is the collective memory and preserved spirits of the Singers and of the earth. Ireland’s bogs and bones are Heaney’s ban-hus; the earth, bones, ravens, rocks and weirwoods are Martin’s. Jojen Reed sums it up best: "Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one" (ASOS, 33, Bran).

[Black Crow]

That's true. Maybe it goes back to the question of whether or not the settlers on Westeros have been doing well enough without magic (or think they have, since magic really hasn't disappeared) and assume they will again. I do think, however, that any Maesters (or anyone else) advocating for it's destruction may be missing the boat.

Of course, this isn't LOTR where the land depends on certain kinds of magic to help prevent decay.

It is however consistent with that fatalistic speech by Leaf. Bran responds by thinking that men would fight and in linking the children and the walkers we've speculated in the past that they may in fact be fighting.

[Black Crow]

not to derail this discussion, but I'm going to go ahead and post Part III of my Heaney essay. As always, if it's not your cup of tea, feel free to skip!

Skipping this would be criminal; that was an absolutely splendid essay which bears a lot of thinking on.

[Eira Seren]

But why and to kill who? On both occasions thus far it was an immediate kill - or might she have created a black ice shadow which is still out there somewhere?

Maybe she thinks ice shadow babies are more effective against Northerners? Would Bolton be a target?

ETA: you're very kind about the essay. It's a LOT of reading :)

[Black Crow]

Maybe she thinks ice shadow babies are more effective against Northerners? Would Bolton be a target?

ETA: you're very kind about the essay. It's a LOT of reading :)

Its perhaps superfluous to point out that uisge beaha means water of life

[Arya Havinfun]

Entirely possible and that comes back to what I suggested earlier about magic being the same; that instead of Ice magic and Fire magic being separate they are one and the same. The only difference is where its used; north of the Wall where its cold the magic is worked through Ice while down below its worked through Fire.

In this case I'd suggest that while black and white shadows are fundamentally the same, the latter last longer because they can be given substance with bodies of ice, precisely because its cold up north, an option not available down south.

Thinking about the possible equivalence/symmetry of shadow babies and white walkers:

This equivalence makes Melisandre appear to be the current fire version of the Night’s Queen, a known succubus. The observed process of birthing such shadow babies is simple and quick, and results in fully armored magical ninjas able to expeditiously take out specifically targeted enemies, no muss, no fuss, then neatly disappear once their mission is complete, leaving no tracks. One visible cost to creating shadow babies is a reduction in vitality in the parental units, especially the male the seed donor. Other costs are less visible, and unknown.

If Val is the current Ice version of the Night’s Queen, as strongly hinted in her white raiment scene with Jon (wedding imagery, with Ghost “giving away the bride,” anyone?), then she may also be a succubus. But somehow I have a hard time imagining Val [or any other(!) human] giving birth to white shadows, at least not directly.

The Ice version seems to be missing some kind of intermediary step, at least as far as what we’ve been shown. Perhaps what’s required is some form of higher quality Ice wight than we’ve seen so far. After all, Mel is undoubtedly unDead. While some Fire wights seem almost normal (e.g., Melisandre, Moqorro), almost all the Ice wights we’ve seen are pretty darn low functioning zombies.

ColdHands, who is said by Leaf to have “died long ago”, is the exception. He’s the most high functioning Ice wight we’ve seen, and he’s still very far from normal seeming, much less so than Mel & Moqorro. Now, it’s entirely possible that greater resemblance to normal people is a function of time and practice, and the older a wight is, the more practiced and skillful it might become at resembling live humans. Perhaps the low functioning zombies are all just tyros, I don’t know.

Is the problem that the Ice side is somehow deficient in glamor skills (to cover up their unhumanness) compared to the Fire side? I don’t know. If Val is actually human, then yes, it appears that Ice doesn’t glamor as well as Fire. If Val is actually unVal, then Ice has Fire beat hands down in the glamor department, it (glamoring skill) just doesn’t get used as often or by as many wights.

******

Alternatively:

We do know that Craster’s wives report that their sons are taken by the White Walkers to become WW themselves. Gilly asserts that the babies “stink of life,” which she says is why the WW (and/or the wights) come to take the babies away. We don’t know if she’s being truthful, or what happens next to the babies exposed, at least not from the books.

I’m wondering if there isn’t a hint in the demonstrated fact that the male seed donor’s vitality is depleted when making a shadow baby. The TV show gives us an evocative scene that implies that the baby’s life force is somehow tapped without killing it. If the baby really is overflowing with excess/abundant life force compared to a low-30’s adult like Stannis, then it’s possible that one baby may be able to supply enough life force for one or more WW, who in turn would live for some undetermined but presumably long interval because they are Ice and develop/accumulate Icey bodies. These WW then go out and patrol the Haunted Forest as directed by whoever is in charge of them. The 13 black clad figures shown in the TV scene have not been explained (and they don’t appear in the books so far as we know), but it seems possible they are the Night’s King and his 12 buddy LCs from way back in the Long Night. Or this generation’s equivalent. I know about the Night King credit that got posted and then rapidly removed from the HBO website, just don’t know how to evaluate that. So another use for the babies "stinking with life" is to be fed on by the 13 guys in black, thus keeping them "alive" for who knows how long.

In any case, we may have a kind of life force vampirism taking place for the presumed purpose of extending life in certain magic users, and this in itself may be the main thing that has magically screwed up the seasonal balance in Terros. It all seems to mirror the Undying of Qarth, doesn’t it?

Anyway, this parallel descriptive outline of my musings about shadow babies and white walkers reinforces Black Crow’s view that the WW are janissaries rather than independent players in the Song.

It also makes me wonder about the actual effectiveness of Drogon burning the putrid blue heart at the HotU and the “shades” of the Undying that got burned away. Were they really destroyed, or were they just “mummers’ Undying” put out for the occasion of Daenerys’ visit.

[redriver]

But why and to kill who? On both occasions thus far it was an immediate kill - or might she have created a black ice shadow which is still out there somewhere?

Not sure about the why and who.We also have these quotes from the chapter-

"The red priestess shuddered.Blood trickled down her thigh,black and smoking.The fire was inside her,an agony,an ecstasy,filling her,searing her,transforming her."

This imagery seems consistent with the Storm's End birth that Davos witnessed.It suggests pregnancy,if that's the word for it.We don't know if Mel has to birth these things after a defined gestation period,if that's the term for it,or whether she can wait 'til the need arises.But birthing such seems to be her intent,-

"She was stronger at the Wall,stronger even than in Asshai.Her every word and gesture was more potent,and she could do things she had never done before.Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible,and no creature of the dark will stand before them."

Not sure she has specific target in mind but perhaps she's brewing one as a stand by.This ice shadow idea seems a stretch to me.Once again I think we're trying to find symmetry where none exists.

However,together with the Mance quote above,I think we have several textual signs pointing in the same direction.

ETA I bolded the last line in that quote but as I was typing it,the thought struck me,what can she do that she couldn't do before?

[Black Crow]

Not sure about the why and who.We also have these quotes from the chapter-

"The red priestess shuddered.Blood trickled down her thigh,black and smoking.The fire was inside her,an agony,an ecstasy,filling her,searing her,transforming her."

This imagery seems consistent with the Storm's End birth that Davos witnessed.It suggests pregnancy,if that's the word for it.We don't know if Mel has to birth these things after a defined gestation period,if that's the term for it,or whether she can wait 'til the need arises.But birthing such seems to be her intent,-

"She was stronger at the Wall,stronger even than in Asshai.Her every word and gesture was more potent,and she could do things she had never done before.Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible,and no creature of the dark will stand before them."

Not sure she has specific target in mind but perhaps she's brewing one as a stand by.This ice shadow idea seems a stretch to me.Once again I think we're trying to find symmetry where none exists.

However,together with the Mance quote above,I think we have several textual signs pointing in the same direction.

ETA I bolded the last line in that quote but as I was typing it,the thought struck me,what can she do that she couldn't do before?

Perhaps it means exactly what we've just discussed; the black shadows we've seen so far were smoke-like and transient, but now she can create more solid black ice shadows, like the white ones beyond the Wall.

And with that happy thought - to bed.

Good night all

[Eira Seren]

Its perhaps superfluous to point out that uisge beaha means water of life

:cheers: It sure does!

Thinking about the possible equivalence/symmetry of shadow babies and white walkers:

. . .

ColdHands, who is said by Leaf to have “died long ago”, is the exception. He’s the most high functioning Ice wight we’ve seen, and he’s still very far from normal seeming, much less so than Mel & Moqorro. Now, it’s entirely possible that greater resemblance to normal people is a function of time and practice, and the older a wight is, the more practiced and skillful it might become at resembling live humans. Perhaps the low functioning zombies are all just tyros, I don’t know.

Is the problem that the Ice side is somehow deficient in glamor skills (to cover up their unhumanness) compared to the Fire side? I don’t know. If Val is actually human, then yes, it appears that Ice doesn’t glamor as well as Fire. If Val is actually unVal, then Ice has Fire beat hands down in the glamor department, it (glamoring skill) just doesn’t get used as often or by as many wights.

******

Alternatively:

In any case, we may have a kind of life force vampirism taking place for the presumed purpose of extending life in certain magic users, and this in itself may be the main thing that has magically screwed up the seasonal balance in Terros. It all seems to mirror the Undying of Qarth, doesn’t it?

Anyway, this parallel descriptive outline of my musings about shadow babies and white walkers reinforces Black Crow’s view that the WW are janissaries rather than independent players in the Song.

It also makes me wonder about the actual effectiveness of Drogon burning the putrid blue heart at the HotU and the “shades” of the Undying that got burned away. Were they really destroyed, or were they just “mummers’ Undying” put out for the occasion of Daenerys’ visit.

I don't know if they bother with glamour on the Ice side. If Val's one, then you're right, they really got it down. They don't seem to bother trying with the wights, and the reflectiveWW armor seems to have it's own camoflauge. If there is a higher rung on the ladder, those might be more like Coldhands. Or the proverbial sheep in Wolf's clothing. . . the Singers.

It would be rather funny if Dany's entire experience in the HOTU was all staged.

. . .

"She was stronger at the Wall,stronger even than in Asshai.Her every word and gesture was more potent,and she could do things she had never done before.Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible,and no creature of the dark will stand before them."

. . .

Apparently what constitutes "creature of the dark" is defined by Mel. Crackpot: Mel is behind Jon's assassination. Marsh and co. are shadows. Or, she intents to reanimate Jon with a "terrible" shadow.

[lokisnow]

Proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing was created by mance when he put a sheepskin around Jon as a new cloak.

Which probably also means mance saw through jons charade and used the sheep skin as a signal he was treacherous to those who could read the literal sigil he put on jons back.

[Arya Havinfun]

Proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing was created by mance when he put a sheepskin around Jon as a new cloak.

Which probably also means mance saw through jons charade and used the sheep skin as a signal he was treacherous to those who could read the literal sigil he put on jons back.

Yeah, I twigged to that too when I first read it, but then I thought that most of the wildlings themselves are described as wearing sheepskins. Doesn't alter the symbolism for the reader, just makes it somehow less "portentious", at least for me. And yes, I agree that Mance was not fooled by Jon at all. Mance was playing his own game all the way.

[Arya Havinfun]

Maybe she thinks ice shadow babies are more effective against Northerners? Would Bolton be a target?

ETA: you're very kind about the essay. It's a LOT of reading :)

Oh gosh! I hope so! As far as I can see, Roose is an apprentice life force vampire, and Ramsey is an escaped "harvest child" (as probably the original Reek 1.0 was). Why in tarnation doesn't Mel see them in her flames?????

ETA: I like the essay, too!

[Arya Havinfun]

Not sure about the why and who.We also have these quotes from the chapter-

"The red priestess shuddered.Blood trickled down her thigh,black and smoking.The fire was inside her,an agony,an ecstasy,filling her,searing her,transforming her."

This imagery seems consistent with the Storm's End birth that Davos witnessed.It suggests pregnancy,if that's the word for it.We don't know if Mel has to birth these things after a defined gestation period,if that's the term for it,or whether she can wait 'til the need arises.But birthing such seems to be her intent,-

"She was stronger at the Wall,stronger even than in Asshai.Her every word and gesture was more potent,and she could do things she had never done before.Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible,and no creature of the dark will stand before them."

Not sure she has specific target in mind but perhaps she's brewing one as a stand by.This ice shadow idea seems a stretch to me.Once again I think we're trying to find symmetry where none exists.

However,together with the Mance quote above,I think we have several textual signs pointing in the same direction.

ETA I bolded the last line in that quote but as I was typing it,the thought struck me,what can she do that she couldn't do before?

I wonder if she is now able to meddle with people's dreams, the way Quaithe enters Dany's dreams by using a glass candle. Mel has no glass candle, AFAIK, but if she had found a way to get into someone's dreams, even only to observe, this could be of interest to her.

What makes me think about this dream Jon had the night before he let the wildlings come through the Wall:

"That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat. Some had spears and some had bows and some had axes. Others rode on chariots made of bones, drawn by teams of dogs as big as ponies. Giants lumbered amongst them, forty feet tall, with mauls the size of oak trees.

“Stand fast,” Jon Snow called. “Throw them back.” He stood atop the Wall, alone. “Flame,” he cried, “feed them flame,” but there was no one to pay heed.

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. “I am the Lord of Winterfell,” Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

… and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. “Snow,” the bird cried. Jon swatted at it. The raven shrieked its displeasure and flapped up to a bedpost to glare down balefully at him through the predawn gloom.

The day had come." [ADwD, p.842-843]

The part that caught my eye is in blue. Black Ice armor and a flaming red sword would be just the sort of imagery that would get Mel all interested, donchathink?

[redriver]

I wonder if she is now able to meddle with people's dreams, the way Quaithe enters Dany's dreams by using a glass candle. Mel has no glass candle, AFAIK, but if she had found a way to get into someone's dreams, even only to observe, this could be of interest to her.

What makes me think about this dream Jon had the night before he let the wildlings come through the Wall:

"That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat. Some had spears and some had bows and some had axes. Others rode on chariots made of bones, drawn by teams of dogs as big as ponies. Giants lumbered amongst them, forty feet tall, with mauls the size of oak trees.

“Stand fast,” Jon Snow called. “Throw them back.” He stood atop the Wall, alone. “Flame,” he cried, “feed them flame,” but there was no one to pay heed.

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. “I am the Lord of Winterfell,” Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

… and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. “Snow,” the bird cried. Jon swatted at it. The raven shrieked its displeasure and flapped up to a bedpost to glare down balefully at him through the predawn gloom.

The day had come." [ADwD, p.842-843]

The part that caught my eye is in blue. Black Ice armor and a flaming red sword would be just the sort of imagery that would get Mel all interested, donchathink?

I'd agree with this.She's all interested.It wouldn't surprise me if she's discounted Stannis as AA and substituted Jon instead since her POV chapter.

But since Jon hasn't succumbed to her charms yet,I suggest she's done the deed with Mance without him exactly knowing what he was getting into,as it were.

The black ice and the red sword have always suggested to me that Jon is the song of ice and fire and that his Targ genes will play an important part of his story,though not the most important.