Heresy 128

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Random, off-topic comment/question #2... What happened to King Aerys' summons to Lord Tywin, after the Battle of the Bells?

The relationship between Aerys and Tywin is discussed a good bit and, in theory at least, we are to suppose that Robert's Rebellion might not have succeeded at all hadTywin led the royal armies. But we do learn that, after the Battle of the Bells, Rhaegar returned to Kings Landing and convinced Aerys to "swallow his pride and summon [Lord Tywin]." Thing is... Kevan Lannister doesn't seem to know anything about that. So, why not? Here are the two passages that mention the relationship at that point in time:

From ASOS, Chapter 37 (Jaime):

"After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him... He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid.

And from ADWD, Epilogue (Kevan Lannister):

Ser Kevan… had known Jon Connington, slightly—a proud youth, the most headstrong of the gaggle of young lordlings who had gathered around Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, competing for his royal favor. Arrogant, but able and energetic.

That, and his skill at arms, was why Mad King Aerys had named him Hand. Old Lord Merryweather's inaction had allowed the rebellion to take root and spread, and Aerys wanted someone young and vigorous to match Robert's own youth and vigor. "Too soon," Lord Tywin Lannister had declared when word of the king's choice had reached Casterly Rock. "Connington is too young, too bold, too eager for glory."

The Battle of the Bells had proved the truth of that. Ser Kevan had expected that afterward Aerys would have no choice but to summon Tywin once more... but the Mad King had turned to the Lords Chelsted and Rossart instead, and paid for it with life and crown.

Reading it again, I realize that it doesn't actually say Aerys sent the summons by raven... but that was my initial assumption, given Jaime's telling of the story ("no raven returned"). Assuming it was a raven that Aerys sent... what happened? Did it arrive to Casterly Rock? Was the message intercepted somewhere along the way - either in Kings Landing before it was sent, or at the Rock before it was delivered? Somewhere in between? Did Tywin receive it and ignore it, like Jaime does with Cersei's plea for help at the end of AFFC? If so - wouldn't Kevan, at least, know something about it? Is this a clue to careful readers that the Sack was more than just a spur-of-the-moment betrayal - that it was the culmination of a long game by Tywin, who was working to undermine Targaryen rule all along? Or... is it a sign of mail fraud?

Puzzling.

[Amoracchius]

Is it possible that when Kevan said "summon Lord Tywin once more" he meant "summon Lord Tywin to serve as Hand of the King once more," whereas Jaime meant that Tywin was summoned to KL or to defend the king, but not necessarily to be the Hand again? The context of Kevan's statement is all about who served as Hand, while Jaime was discussing the course of the war. If that's the case, there may be no conflict between the statements at all; Aerys could have summoned Tywin to defend KL, but not to be Hand of the King. That would help explain why Aerys was willing to open the gates to the Lannister host and would resolve the apparent conflict between Jaime and Kevan's statements.

[Morrigan's Raven]

@ Snowfyre...The metronic cycle...THIS is why I love this thread. Always some smart person with intense curiosity, willing to share information with the rest of us! NOT mathematical myself, but have to wonder if you have just solved a time line issue...if some " years" begin at the first full moon after a solstice, and the seasons are used by other record keepers as beginnings of years?

edit:clarity

[Debra Morgan]

About R+L: many people think that R&L were in love and Lyanna ran off voluntarily. But how could Lyanna make love with Rhaegar in ToJ while king Aerys was tormenting and killing her father and older brother, while he was trying to kill Ned, while the war was walking through the country?

[redriver]

@ Snowfyre Good shout with the Metonomic Cycle.I'm sure Martin would be aware of this and given it a nod with the number 19 references.

As to your second puzzle,I'm not sure there's much amiss here.Tywin was doing what he always does,protect House Lannister.He'd fallen out with Aerys for some time now and wasn't going to risk anything to protect him.Jaime was by the king's side most of the time at this point,so if he says Aerys sent for Tywin then I'd accept that.It sounds like Kevan was at the Rock at the time,and if Tywin received a summons from Aerys he may simply have chosen not to tell anyone about it.

I don't think Tywin was actively conspiring against Aerys but I think he was keeping his eye out for the "main chance" as it were,with minimal risk to his House.

[redriver]

About R+L: many people think that R&L were in love and Lyanna ran off voluntarily. But how could Lyanna make love with Rhaegar in ToJ while king Aerys was tormenting and killing her father and older brother, while he was trying to kill Ned, while the war was walking through the country?

It would be something of a downer if she knew all this.But her abduction or elopement took place before all the events you outlined above.The Tower of Joy was probably chosen for it's isolation and secrecy,so that ongoing developments could be kept from her ears.

I'm not saying she didn't run off voluntarily,but it doesn't say good things about her.Though this is Martin's world and no one's perfect.

[redriver]

I don't get the similarity? What does the reference to Obsidian as Frozen fire have to do with Jon's dream? Obsidian conceptually will not work unless Popsicles plan on hugging Jon(don't see Jon fighting them period by the way).We don't know if ww blades will be hindered by Obsidian either seeing as they are made from "ice" and not the wws themselves.

Black ice, sometimes called clear ice, refers to a thin coating of glazed ice on a surface. While not truly black, it is virtually transparent, allowing black asphalt/macadam roadways or the surface below to be seen through it—hence the term "black ice".

Wouldn't ice be a dumb thing to armour yourself in too?It would probably melt on minimal exertion,be restrictive of movement and it's not exactly sword or shatter proof either.

[Hrafntýr]

Wouldn't ice be a dumb thing to armour yourself in too?It would probably melt on minimal exertion,be restrictive of movement and it's not exactly sword or shatter proof either.

Ha!

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Is it possible that when Kevan said "summon Lord Tywin once more" he meant "summon Lord Tywin to serve as Hand of the King once more," whereas Jaime meant that Tywin was summoned to KL or to defend the king, but not necessarily to be the Hand again? The context of Kevan's statement is all about who served as Hand, while Jaime was discussing the course of the war. If that's the case, there may be no conflict between the statements at all; Aerys could have summoned Tywin to defend KL, but not to be Hand of the King. That would help explain why Aerys was willing to open the gates to the Lannister host and would resolve the apparent conflict between Jaime and Kevan's statements.

Possible, of course. But I sort of read this in the context of other reflections by Jaime earlier in the text - at one point he recalls Connington's exile, and immediately we read that "so swiftly did the Hands rise and fall that Jaime remembered their heraldry better than their faces." So it was clear that Aerys was actively, and desperately, seeking a competent commander for his war - and that this was the role of the Hand. Ser Kevan recalls that Connington was selected for his energy and ability - after Lord Merryweather proved something of a "do-nothing" Hand - but Connington failed to win in the field. And with no response from Tywin, Aerys apparently turned his attention almost single-mindedly to booby-trapping King's Landing with wildfire. As if he'd given up entirely on winning the war. That's when the role of Hand seems to have changed - with the primary responsibility being oversight of the wildfire production and placement. One of the next two Hands was burned alive for refusing to cooperate; the other was a pyromancer, only stopped from carrying out the self-destruction by Jaime's sword. And Rhaegar ends up leading the royal forces at the Trident himself - but it was Rhaegar who convinced his father to summon Tywin. And Connington himself reflects that Tywin would have ended the rebellion at Stoney Sept in his place.

So, all in all, the conversation just seems to me to revolve around the role of Hand. But you're right that there might not be as much conflict in these stories as there seems. It's just that when I read the two of them side by side, there seems to be a disconnect.

@ Snowfyre...The metronic cycle...THIS is why I love this thread. Always some smart person with intense curiosity, willing to share information with the rest of us! NOT mathematical myself, but have to wonder if you have just solved a time line issue...if some " years" begin at the first full moon after a solstice, and the seasons are used by other record keepers as beginnings of years?

edit:clarity

:cheers:

@ Snowfyre Good shout with the Metonomic Cycle.I'm sure Martin would be aware of this and given it a nod with the number 19 references.

As to your second puzzle,I'm not sure there's much amiss here.Tywin was doing what he always does,protect House Lannister.He'd fallen out with Aerys for some time now and wasn't going to risk anything to protect him.Jaime was by the king's side most of the time at this point,so if he says Aerys sent for Tywin then I'd accept that.It sounds like Kevan was at the Rock at the time,and if Tywin received a summons from Aerys he may simply have chosen not to tell anyone about it.

I don't think Tywin was actively conspiring against Aerys but I think he was keeping his eye out for the "main chance" as it were,with minimal risk to his House.

Re: the first puzzle... :cheers:

Re: the second puzzle... I could live with that (the bolded bits). But I still find it curious that Kevan seems to have heard not a peep about that summons from Aerys. Not that Tywin couldn't have kept a secret - but throughout our story, he seems to have relied on Kevan to see his plans through. And really, he turns out to be rather forthcoming in his conversations - with Tyrion in particular - even explaining his thinking with respect to Gregor Clegane and the killing of Elia and her children. Obviously, Martin puts certain things on the page (and keeps certain things off of it) for his own storytelling purposes. But as I said above to Amoracchius, these stories still feel inconsistent. For as much as Kevan seems to know about the events and players of that time - his expectation that Aerys would recall Tywin to service, together with his disappointment that this didn't happen, stands out like a sore thumb next to Jaime's memory that the summons was in fact sent.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

About R+L: many people think that R&L were in love and Lyanna ran off voluntarily. But how could Lyanna make love with Rhaegar in ToJ while king Aerys was tormenting and killing her father and older brother, while he was trying to kill Ned, while the war was walking through the country?

Very, very good question. I don't know how she could. But in some other threads, there are people who might insist (maybe) that Rhaegar was just that awesome. The Don Juan's Don Juan, I suppose. Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, "able..." to seduce even the most reluctant and strong-willed of women against all reason. Quite dreamy, really. And such a great loss... <_<

[Frey family reunion]

Random, off-topic comment/question #2... What happened to King Aerys' summons to Lord Tywin, after the Battle of the Bells?

The relationship between Aerys and Tywin is discussed a good bit and, in theory at least, we are to suppose that Robert's Rebellion might not have succeeded at all hadTywin led the royal armies. But we do learn that, after the Battle of the Bells, Rhaegar returned to Kings Landing and convinced Aerys to "swallow his pride and summon [Lord Tywin]." Thing is... Kevan Lannister doesn't seem to know anything about that. So, why not? Here are the two passages that mention the relationship at that point in time:

From ASOS, Chapter 37 (Jaime):

And from ADWD, Epilogue (Kevan Lannister):

Reading it again, I realize that it doesn't actually say Aerys sent the summons by raven... but that was my initial assumption, given Jaime's telling of the story ("no raven returned"). Assuming it was a raven that Aerys sent... what happened? Did it arrive to Casterly Rock? Was the message intercepted somewhere along the way - either in Kings Landing before it was sent, or at the Rock before it was delivered? Somewhere in between? Did Tywin receive it and ignore it, like Jaime does with Cersei's plea for help at the end of AFFC? If so - wouldn't Kevan, at least, know something about it? Is this a clue to careful readers that the Sack was more than just a spur-of-the-moment betrayal - that it was the culmination of a long game by Tywin, who was working to undermine Targaryen rule all along? Or... is it a sign of mail fraud?

Puzzling.

It would be also interesting to know who sent the raven from King's Landing to Casterly Rock. Was it Pycelle? And if so the message may not have been what Rhaegar and Aerys originally drafted.

[Frey family reunion]

Very, very good question. I don't know how she could. But in some other threads, there are people who might insist (maybe) that Rhaegar was just that awesome. The Don Juan's Don Juan, I suppose. Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, "able..." to seduce even the most reluctant and strong-willed of women against all reason. Quite dreamy, really. And such a great loss... <_<

Or perhaps Robert was correct after all and Rhaegar held her against her will and repeatedly raped her.

[Maester Feelgood]

When you dream your mind automatically fills in the information gaps for you. You see bizarre images that feel normal because your mind knows what your seeing and tells you what it is despite what it appears to be. Going off this logic, Jon knowing he's seeing black ice means that it can only be black ice. The only way he could be wrong and it were something else (obsidian or otherwise) would be dream manipulation through glass candles, the weirnet or otherwise. Then his mind would have to take the image and rationalize what it is.

I personally believe it's black ice like he says but to be convinced otherwise there would need to be a reason why someone would want to project the image of obsidian armour.

[Frey family reunion]

To reiterate the arguement is about an opnionated Obsidian Armor that would supposedly prohibit a wws sword ( if it was constructed with the same vulnerabiity as the wws themselves to which i ask why?) from penetrating. Lets say that's true, Obsidian is glass and extremly brittle that shatters from the force of a blow,so all it takes is a solid hit with enough force and bye bye armor.It would have to be thin and somehow malleable and be able to facilitate fluid movement for fighting.....There is so much wrong with this.

As to fire we are absolutely sure that Grenn's torch didn't go out until the the WWs sword put it out,wights en masse will snuff out fires like that its so cold.

I still think that the White Walkers are actually constructed of frozen air. Their outer "shell" and bones are frozen nitrogen, and their pale blue "blood" is liquid oxygen. When Sam stabs the Puddles with his obisidan dagger, the frozen nitrogen heats to liquid nitrogen which accounts for the rivulets and the blood starts to revert back to gas which accounts for the "steam".

I wonder if the sword could be frozen carbon dioxide which could account for the high pitch squeal when the sword touched Waymer's sword. It's called Bernoulli's principle:

http://www.ehow.com/facts_7187818_metal-scream-touches-dry-ice_.html

It might also explain why there is no mention of Puddle's sword after he melts. When Carbon Dioxide heats up it goes straight from solid to gaseous form. So it would just kind of disappear.

[Mother Other]

No possible way that Rhaegar was so perfect. Absolutely NO other character in the series is without fault of some kind. Even good people make bad choices. Rhaegar will not be an exception.

[Hrafntýr]

Regarding Aerys and Tywin: I like Amoracchius' reading, according to which Jaime's account referencing a summoning of Tywin's forces but without the offer to become Hand again, with Kevan possibly thinking of a summons to become Hand that was never made. But it is problematic, particularly as both recollections use the verb "summon" and both are prompted by thinking about former Hand Jon Conn.

I think it's clear that there is a fraught and dramatic backstory to Aerys and Tywin's relationship, one that we may never get, I fear. IIRC, Varys says that they were friends "in their youth"; I wonder in what circumstances they became "friends" (and this would have been before Varys' arrival, so he's going on the result of hearsay): did they squire together? Did Tywin visit KL to meet his betrothed, and become a friend but also "rival" to Aerys then? I once read somewhere on the boards here an unsubstantiated speculation that Aerys and Tywin had conspired together to create the tragedy at Summerhall so that only Jaehaerys stood between Aerys and the crown. There was no evidence, but even though I read it ages ago it stuck in my mind. I suppose that there need be no more explanation for the weirdness between Aerys and Tywin other than jealousy on Aerys' part.

[Hrafntýr]

It would be also interesting to know who sent the raven from King's Landing to Casterly Rock. Was it Pycelle? And if so the message may not have been what Rhaegar and Aerys originally drafted.

That's a fine point!

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

It would be also interesting to know who sent the raven from King's Landing to Casterly Rock. Was it Pycelle? And if so the message may not have been what Rhaegar and Aerys originally drafted.

Definitely possible. And I may have cut off the passage from Jaime's POV too soon - the very next sentence mentions Varys, stoking Aerys' suspicions and paranoia. Not that Varys is the answer - but Martin certainly seems to offer the suggestion for anyone inclined to take it...

Or perhaps Robert was correct after all and Rhaegar held her against her will and repeteadly raped her.

Also possible. Though at some point, it starts to feel like people see whatever they want to see when it comes to the question of Rhaegar and Lyanna, doesn't it? Characters and readers both. And when he's not writing anything (and he's written practically nothing about this particular relationship, as it turns out - which is not to suggest there was a relationship at all)... Martin just sits back, and enjoys the show. It's almost a social experiment, really. With the reading public as the test population.

No possible way that Rhaegar was so perfect. Absolutely NO other character in the series is without fault of some kind. Even good people make bad choices. Rhaegar will not be an exception.

Agreed. I think it's fascinating to see so many readers "read in" the more typical, idealized, fairy-tale heros, using the spaces Martin leaves unfilled in his own story. And I continue to think that Martin may not ever fill in the gaps - at least not completely. (What better way to ensure the work remains relevant, spurring continued conversation and debate about the story?)

[Debra Morgan]

Or perhaps Robert was correct after all and Rhaegar held her against her will and repeatedly raped her.

Many characters like Jorah, Ned, Cersei and etc. noticed that Rhaegar was honorable man who couldn't rape lady. Hovewer, in one interview GRRM said that young girl who runs off from arranged marriage is unrealistic.

[Amoracchius]

I hadn't remembered that Jaime told that story in the middle of his recount the heraldry of Aerys's last Hands. Very interesting.

I find Frey Family Reunion's idea that Pycelle sent the raven on behalf of the crown very intriguing as well. It occurs to me that Pycelle would also have been the one to receive Tywin's reply via raven, if one had been sent. We're told that Pycelle convinced Aerys to open the gates for Tywin, while Varys urged him not to. I wonder if Pycelle, and not Varys, was the one leading the king astray. He admitted to Tyrion that he had long been in the pocket of House Lannister, so maybe Pycelle was informing Tywin of what was happening in KL and Tywin did reply to his summons, but his reply was meant only for Pycelle, to let him know that Tywin was going to march against the Targaryans.