Heresy 128

[Eira Seren]

Eira Seren said:

And obviously, being wargs, the Singer's cave and the Winterfell crypts have some other similarities as well. In fact, I wonder what they did with all the direwolf bones. . .

Beneath the shadow of the First Keep was an ancient lichyard, its headstones spotted with pale lichen, where the old Kings of Winter had laid their faithful servants. It was there they buried Lady, while her brothers stalked between the graves like restless shadows. She had gone south, and only her bones had returned. [AGoT, p.557]

Thanks for that! I am totally on board now.

[Black Crow]

Eira Seren said:

And obviously, being wargs, the Singer's cave and the Winterfell crypts have some other similarities as well. In fact, I wonder what they did with all the direwolf bones. . .

Beneath the shadow of the First Keep was an ancient lichyard, its headstones spotted with pale lichen, where the old Kings of Winter had laid their faithful servants. It was there they buried Lady, while her brothers stalked between the graves like restless shadows. She had gone south, and only her bones had returned. [AGoT, p.557]

Good catch, its funny how after all this time things pass unnoticed.

There is a reference to Mikken the smith being buried in it as well so its not just direwolves going into the ground there, but the link to the old Kings of Winter is interesting and raises the question of just how big this lichyard really is.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

That might be tied up with the bittersweet ending - the death of magic.

That's been my premise for a very long time. That this series will end with the death of magic, and likely the sacrifice of a fan favorite character. My guess would be Dany.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. “I am the Lord of Winterfell,” Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

… and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. “Snow,” the bird cried. Jon swatted at it. The raven shrieked its displeasure and flapped up to a bedpost to glare down balefully at him through the predawn gloom.

The day had come." [ADwD, p.842-843]

The part that caught my eye is in blue. Black Ice armor and a flaming red sword would be just the sort of imagery that would get Mel all interested, donchathink?

I personally think the "black ice armor" is obsidian armor.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

In that scene where Mel propositions Jon, she predicts the return of his dead rangers from beyond the Wall and says something like "when that day comes, take my hand." Not that anyone here needs to be told that Mel is not trustworthy, but I found it interesting to note that this exact phrase ("take my hand") has appeared on three other occasions in these books so far, and in every case the offer was followed by a deliberate and/or pre-meditated betrayal of trust.

For reference, the phrase "take my hand" is used by:

- Jaime Lannister to Bran at Winterfell, just before he pushes the boy from the tower.

- Meryn Trant to Tyrion on the Blackwater, just before he swings his sword at the dwarf's head.

- Petyr Baelish to Lysa Arryn, just before he pushes her out the Moondoor.

Very nice, though I think her particular betrayal will be sacrificing Shireen. But if she was really behind the attack on Jon, that would be quite a twist.

[King of Winters]

That's been my premise for a very long time. That this series will end with the death of magic, and likely the sacrifice of a fan favorite character. My guess would be Dany.

Or possibly Jon. Dany might die of other circumstances.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Or possibly Jon. Dany might die of other circumstances.

Perhaps even both :) It's also possible they will have a child together. Dany's "womb quickening again" is too big of a Chekhov's Gun not to go off at some point.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Very nice, though I think her particular betrayal will be sacrificing Shireen. But if she was really behind the attack on Jon, that would be quite a twist.

Not sure how the attack on Jon plays out in terms of responsible parties, but I would certainly peg Mel as one of the primary suspects. Whether her involvement was active, or proves to be merely a sin of omission (i.e., failure to prevent or forewarn), remains to be seen. She certainly offered Jon enough information ahead of time to say "I told you so."

I also wouldn't be surprised to see Mel go after Shireen. That, however, would be a betrayal of Stannis (or Selyse) rather than Jon - thus, a bit of a separate issue. The reason I suggest we should expect a betrayal of Jon is because it was Jon alone that Mel invited to "take [her] hand."

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Good catch, and thank you for noticing this! I took the liberty of adding in page numbers for ease of looking these incidents up. :)

Again, for reference, here are the passages I was thinking of. There is another interesting comment made by Victarion Greyjoy, to the maester who treats his wounded hand, which I've added to the bottom. Also, I realize I named the wrong KG knight in my previous post - it was Mandon Moore, not Meryn Trant, who invited Tyrion to "take [his] hand."

Jaime to Bran (AGOT, Chapter 8):

Bran's fingers started to slip. He grabbed the ledge with his other hand. Fingernails dug into unyielding stone. The man reached down. "Take my hand," he said. "Before you fall."

Bran seized his arm and held on tight with all his strength. The man yanked him up to the ledge. "What are you doing?" the woman demanded.

The man ignored her. He was very strong. He stood Bran up on the sill. "How old are you, boy?"

"Seven," Bran said, shaking with relief. His fingers had dug deep gouges in the man's forearm. He let go sheepishly.

The man looked over at the woman. "The things I do for love," he said with loathing. He gave Bran a shove.

Screaming, Bran went backward out the window into empty air. There was nothing to grab on to. The courtyard rushed up to meet him.

Ser Mandon Moore, to Tyrion (ACOK, Chapter 61):

Someone was calling his name faintly through the din of battle. Tyrion tried to shout back. "Here! Here, I'm here, help me!" His voice sounded so thin he could scarcely hear himself. He pulled himself up the slanting deck, and grabbed for the rail. The hull slammed into the next galley over and rebounded so violently he was almost knocked into the water. Where had all his strength gone? It was all he could do to hang on.

"MY LORD! TAKE MY HAND! MY LORD TYRION!"

There on the deck of the next ship, across a widening gulf of black water, stood Ser Mandon Moore, a hand extended. Yellow and green fire shone against the white of his armor, and his lobstered gauntlet was sticky with blood, but Tyrion reached for it all the same, wishing his arms were longer. It was only at the very last, as their fingers brushed across the gap, that something niggled at him. Ser Mandon was holding out his left hand, why...

Was that why he reeled backward, or did he see the sword after all? He would never know. The point slashed just beneath his eyes, and he felt its cold hard touch and then a blaze of pain. His head spun around as if he'd been slapped. The shock of the cold water was a second slap more jolting than the first. He flailed for something to grab on to, knowing that once he went down he was not like to come back up.

Littlefinger to Lysa Arryn (ASOS, Chapter 80):

"...Catelyn kissed you in the godswood, but she never meant it, she never wanted you. Why did you love her best? It was me, it was always meeee!"

"I know, love." He took another step. “And I am here. All you need to do is take my hand, come on." He held it out to her. "There's no cause for all these tears."

… "Why did you kiss her? Why? We're together now, we're together after so long, so very long, why would you want to kiss herrrrrr?"

"Lysa," Petyr sighed, "after all the storms we've suffered, you should trust me better. I swear, I shall never leave your side again, for as long as we both shall live... I've only loved one woman, I promise you."

Lysa Arryn smiled tremulously. "Only one? Oh, Petyr, do you swear it? Only one?"

“Only Cat." He gave her a short, sharp shove.

Lysa stumbled backward, her feet slipping on the wet marble. And then she was gone. She never screamed. For the longest time there was no sound but the wind.

Melisandre to Jon Snow (ADWD, Chapter 28):

..."A sword without a hilt is still a sword, though, and a sword is a fine thing to have when foes are all about. Hear me now, Jon Snow. Nine crows flew into the white wood to find your foes for you. Three of them are dead. They have not died yet, but their death is out there waiting for them, and they ride to meet it. You sent them forth to be your eyes in the darkness, but they will be eyeless when they return to you. I have seen their pale dead faces in my flames. Empty sockets, weeping blood." She pushed her red hair back, and her red eyes shone. "You do not believe me. You will. The cost of that belief will be three lives. A small price to pay for wisdom, some might say... but not one you had to pay. Remember that when you behold the blind and ravaged faces of your dead. And come that day, take my hand." The mist rose from her pale flesh, and for a moment it seemed as if pale, sorcerous flames were playing about her fingers. "Take my hand," she said again, "and let me save your sister."

Victarion to Maester Kerwin (ADWD, Chapter 56):

"Lord Captain." The maester looked like a mouse as well, with his grey robes and little brown mustachio. Does he think that makes him look more manly? Kerwin was his name. He was very young, two-and-twenty maybe. "May I see your hand?" he asked.

... "My hand is here," Victarion said. "Look all you like."

Maester Kerwin went down to one knee, the better to inspect the wound. He even sniffed at it, like a dog. "I will need to let the pus again. The color... lord Captain, the cut is not healing. It may be that I will need to take your hand."

They had talked of this before. "If you take my hand, I will kill you. But first I will tie you over the rail and make the crew a gift of your arse. Get on with it."

[Frey family reunion]

Again, for reference, here are the passages I was thinking of. There is another interesting comment made by Victarion Greyjoy, to the maester who treats his wounded hand, which I've added to the bottom. Also, I realize I named the wrong KG knight in my previous post - it was Mandon Moore, not Meryn Trant, who invited Tyrion to "take [his] hand."

Jaime to Bran (AGOT, Chapter 8):

Ser Mandon Moore, to Tyrion (ACOK, Chapter 61):

Littlefinger to Lysa Arryn (ASOS, Chapter 80):

Melisandre to Jon Snow (ADWD, Chapter 28):

Victarion to Maester Kerwin (ADWD, Chapter 56):

Excellent catch. It might be interesting to compare the passages of "taking someone's hand" and compare them to those who "clasps" the hands of another. In the Schmendrick's R+L= Lightbringer thread, it was noted that we have a passage of Jon Snow clasping hands with Tyrion,

Tyrion found himself oddly touched. "Most of my kin are bastards," he said with a wry smile, "but you're the first I've had to friend." He pulled a glove off with his teeth and clasped Snow by the hand, flesh against flest. The boy's grip was firm and strong.

And compared it to the prophecy of Azor Ahai and Lightbringer

In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.

By my count the other characters who clasp another by the hand are:

Robert clasps the hand of Eddard in AGOT

Catelyn clasps the hand of Brienne in ACOK

Pyp clasps the hand of Jon in ASOS

Jon clasps the offered hand of Tormund in ADWD

[Frey family reunion]

Delete

[Mother Other]

I recently ran across something that my be tied in with the current discussion on the COTF and the bones in the cave. While researching southwestern folklore I came across the story of La Loba the bone collector. It is basically an Anima take on the Morrigan aspects of mother, maiden, crone. I'm wondering if George, living in New Mexico, has heard this one? It ties the ideas of the Morrigan and the Singers together perfectly.

La Loba

There is an old woman who lives in a hidden place that everyone knows but few have ever seen. As in the fairy tales of Eastern Europe, she seems to wait for lost or wandering people and seekers to come to her place.

They say she lives among the rotten granite slopes in Tarahumara Indian territory. They say she is buried outside Phoenix near a well. She is said to have been seen traveling south to Monte Alban in a burnt-out car with the back window shot out. She is said to stand by the highway near El Paso, or ride shotgun with truckers to Morelia, Mexico, or that she has been sighted walking to market above Oaxaca with strangely formed boughs of firewood on her back. She is called by many names: La Huesera, Bone Woman; La Trapera, The Gatherer; and La Loba, Wolf Woman.

The sole work of La Loba is the collecting of bones. She is known to collect and preserve especially that which is in danger of being lost to the world. Her cave is filled with the bones of all manner of desert creatures: the deer, the rattlesnake, the crow. But her speciality is said to be wolves.

She creeps and crawls and sifts through the montanas, mountains, and arroyos, dry river beds, looking for wolf bones, and when she has assembled an entire skeleton, when the last bone is in place and the beautiful white sculpture of the creature is laid out before her, she sits by the fire and thinks about what song she will sing.

And when she is sure, she stands over the criatura, raises her arms over it, and sings out. That is when the rib bones and leg bones of the wolf begin to flesh out and the creature becomes furred. La Loba sings some more, and more of the creature comes into being; its tail curls upward, shaggy and strong.

And La Loba sings more and the wolf creature begins to breathe.

And still La Loba sings so deeply that the floor of the desert shakes, and as she sings, the wolf opens its eyes, leaps up, and runs away down the canyon.

Somewhere in its running, whether by the speed of its running, or by splashing its way into a river, or by way of a ray of sunlight or moonlight hitting it right in the side, the wolf is suddenly transformed into a laughing woman who runs free toward the horizon.

So it is said that if you wander the desert, and it is near sundown, and you are perhaps a little bit lost, and certainly tired, that you are lucky, for La Loba may take a liking to you and show you something - something of the Soul.

Another name for La Loba is La Que Sabe, meaning the one who knows, a different version of the tale states it is the lost or untold stories "songs" of the dead that she gets from the bones.

Sounds alot like the COTF and their creepy cave doesn't it?

[Urrax2]

You can translate Loba as She-Wolf. And there's The She-Wolves of Winterfell, the story that was withheld from us, presumably to avoid important spoilage. Hmmmmmmm.....

[Black Crow]

Very nice, though I think her particular betrayal will be sacrificing Shireen. But if she was really behind the attack on Jon, that would be quite a twist.

Its not impossible. Although we saw her cosying up to Jon, he's resolutely kept her at a distance. Her leaving the Shield Hall before he does at least opens the possibility of complicity and offers two scenarios; one that there was an intention to demonstrate her indispensability by orchestrating the very attack she was warning him against [only it got out of hand] or two; that after giving the matter some proper consideration she decided that the skulls which she saw surrounding him did not represent a threat to him, but rather signified that he was a threat to her.

It could be either or none, but at this stage we really can't predict anything.

[Black Crow]

You can translate Loba as She-Wolf. And there's The She-Wolves of Winterfell, the story that was withheld from us, presumably to avoid important spoilage. Hmmmmmmm.....

Yes... whether or not its intentional, there are certainly parallels and ultimately of course the story is not just about bones but skin-changing and wolves.

[Eira Seren]

From another thread...

His death & the rules of warging that was shown to us in ADWD's Prologue… The Ice cells are involved & the way that GRRM said there is a very specific plot device tied to wall blocking communication between a warg & his human… It is complicated but it should also be obvious from SSM's that Jon is going to become a greyer character "Jon has some dark roads to walk"...

Basically what is going to happen (please hold the laughs to a minimum) is:

1. Jon Dies
2. Begins 2nd Life in Ghost
3. Ghost/Jon travel North of the wall (and Jon is bound to Ghost, he cannot take another body)
4. Mel or Val (probably Mel via MMD-like ritual to save Khal Drogo) brings Jon's body back to life.
5. Jon's 2nd Life is suddenly over & he is pulled back toward his real body, but can't access it because of the wall.
6. Jon's body remains in a vegetable-like state just like Khal drogo was
7. Jon's body is thrown into the Ice-Cells. ensuring that Jon's Conciousness will not be able to access it
8. Jon's consciousness goes back into Ghost, but is no longer bound to Ghost (he can take other bodies.
9. Jon takes Hodor (already broken in) and uses Hodor as his primary body.
10. At some point Jon's consciousness become corrupted by Varamyr (perhaps Jon tries to Warg One-Eye)… This gives Jon access to a lifetime worth of Warging experience, but terribly compromises his moral compass at the same time...
11. Jon starts collecting skins… human skins...
12. Jon is the Night's King, just as Tyrion is Lan the Clever… Note: Nothing like what HBO portrayed as the Night's King...

Most of the above speculation actually has a substantial amount of foreshadowing, evidence, and subtle hints to support it, though please don't ask me to list it...

In an interesting twist:

1. Khal Drogo went into one of the dragons & this is why his body was in a vegetable-like state
2. When Dany takes her dragon North & the wall falls (or has fallen), the Khal will stumble across Jon's perfectly inhabitable body & take it for his own...
3. This is why Dany saw the Blue Rose in the wall of ice… Khal Drogo will come back to her...
4. & of course, Bran will take the Khal's Dragon & fulfill his destiny of being the winged-wolf...

This is interesting, the idea that Jon may not be able to reanimate in his body is new to me. What about being the NK, though? Would Jon necessarily have to have a 'dark' moral compass in order to become the NK? Am just thinking there's a lot of steps to the process as currently outlined (Ghost, Hodor, Varamyr, taking skins, NK) and possibly not so many books left in which to do it.

I did a fairly chunky essay on it as part of the Centennial project; you'll find it in Heresy 100 with a link to the associated thread - or go straight to the original through Wolfmaid's guide.

Essentially what I argued was that the original Winterfell was a ringwork on top of a Sidhe hill.

:cool4:

Good catch, its funny how after all this time things pass unnoticed.

There is a reference to Mikken the smith being buried in it as well so its not just direwolves going into the ground there, but the link to the old Kings of Winter is interesting and raises the question of just how big this lichyard really is.

If they're burying all the faithful servants there, probably pretty large. Did they bury the rest of the direwolves there, too, or are they in the crypts?

. . .

Another name for La Loba is La Que Sabe, meaning the one who knows, a different version of the tale states it is the lost or untold stories "songs" of the dead that she gets from the bones.

Sounds alot like the COTF and their creepy cave doesn't it?

Wow, nice find. I'd be surprised if GRRM hadn't heard about La Loba. That connection to the Morrigan is pretty striking as well.

This makes me think of another question: what happens when there are no direwolves or giants left? Can the Singers preserve the memories forever? Or do they have some kind of use limit?

[Mother Other]

You can translate Loba as She-Wolf. And there's The She-Wolves of Winterfell, the story that was withheld from us, presumably to avoid important spoilage. Hmmmmmmm.....

Exactly. That came to my mind as well. Also, the addition of Lyanna's She-Wolf bones in the Winterfell crypts stands out as well, with no sword to ward her. I'm guessing we won't get The She-Wolves of Winterfell until after TWOW

[Black Crow]

If they're burying all the faithful servants there, probably pretty large. Did they bury the rest of the direwolves there, too, or are they in the crypts?

I don't know and wonder if Mikken was an abberation. What's striking you see is the way that it isn't casually referred to as "the lichyard" or "the lichyard where the Starks buried their servants", but as where the Kings of Winter buried their servants.

[wolfmaid7]

I personally think the "black ice armor" is obsidian armor.

Nah, i think the Black ice is just that,ice reflecting his blacks,which indicates how freaking cold it possibly was and moreso that he didn't feel it..We have not seen the precedence of Obsidian used in that capacity as an armour just daggers and arrowheads.

Again, for reference, here are the passages I was thinking of. There is another interesting comment made by Victarion Greyjoy, to the maester who treats his wounded hand, which I've added to the bottom. Also, I realize I named the wrong KG knight in my previous post - it was Mandon Moore, not Meryn Trant, who invited Tyrion to "take [his] hand."

Jaime to Bran (AGOT, Chapter 8):

Ser Mandon Moore, to Tyrion (ACOK, Chapter 61):

Littlefinger to Lysa Arryn (ASOS, Chapter 80):

Melisandre to Jon Snow (ADWD, Chapter 28):

Victarion to Maester Kerwin (ADWD, Chapter 56):

This is an amazing catch Snowy

I recently ran across something that my be tied in with the current discussion on the COTF and the bones in the cave. While researching southwestern folklore I came across the story of La Loba the bone collector. It is basically an Anima take on the Morrigan aspects of mother, maiden, crone. I'm wondering if George, living in New Mexico, has heard this one? It ties the ideas of the Morrigan and the Singers together perfectly.

La Loba

There is an old woman who lives in a hidden place that everyone knows but few have ever seen. As in the fairy tales of Eastern Europe, she seems to wait for lost or wandering people and seekers to come to her place.

They say she lives among the rotten granite slopes in Tarahumara Indian territory. They say she is buried outside Phoenix near a well. She is said to have been seen traveling south to Monte Alban in a burnt-out car with the back window shot out. She is said to stand by the highway near El Paso, or ride shotgun with truckers to Morelia, Mexico, or that she has been sighted walking to market above Oaxaca with strangely formed boughs of firewood on her back. She is called by many names: La Huesera, Bone Woman; La Trapera, The Gatherer; and La Loba, Wolf Woman.

The sole work of La Loba is the collecting of bones. She is known to collect and preserve especially that which is in danger of being lost to the world. Her cave is filled with the bones of all manner of desert creatures: the deer, the rattlesnake, the crow. But her speciality is said to be wolves.

She creeps and crawls and sifts through the montanas, mountains, and arroyos, dry river beds, looking for wolf bones, and when she has assembled an entire skeleton, when the last bone is in place and the beautiful white sculpture of the creature is laid out before her, she sits by the fire and thinks about what song she will sing.

And when she is sure, she stands over the criatura, raises her arms over it, and sings out. That is when the rib bones and leg bones of the wolf begin to flesh out and the creature becomes furred. La Loba sings some more, and more of the creature comes into being; its tail curls upward, shaggy and strong.

And La Loba sings more and the wolf creature begins to breathe.

And still La Loba sings so deeply that the floor of the desert shakes, and as she sings, the wolf opens its eyes, leaps up, and runs away down the canyon.

Somewhere in its running, whether by the speed of its running, or by splashing its way into a river, or by way of a ray of sunlight or moonlight hitting it right in the side, the wolf is suddenly transformed into a laughing woman who runs free toward the horizon.

So it is said that if you wander the desert, and it is near sundown, and you are perhaps a little bit lost, and certainly tired, that you are lucky, for La Loba may take a liking to you and show you something - something of the Soul.

Another name for La Loba is La Que Sabe, meaning the one who knows, a different version of the tale states it is the lost or untold stories "songs" of the dead that she gets from the bones.

Sounds alot like the COTF and their creepy cave doesn't it?

Now this here is a nice bit of myth i especially love yet again the parallel between magic and "songs"

[addicted to snow]

If Bran is going to be a dragon, then someone else will need to pick up Hodor...