Heresy 128

[wolfmaid7]

Wouldn't ice be a dumb thing to armour yourself in too?It would probably melt on minimal exertion,be restrictive of movement and it's not exactly sword or shatter proof either.

Red the dream is just a symbolic dream, seeing as Jon felt no cold it could the armor was a visual representation that he was protected against it.I don't think there was an armor of "any kind"that Jon will be wearing ice or not as both would be just as impractical.

[Frey family reunion]

Many characters like Jorah, Ned, Cersei and etc. noticed that Rhaegar was honorable man who couldn't rape lady. Hovewer, in one interview GRRM said that young girl who runs off from arranged marriage is unrealistic.

How far would he have been willing to go if he thought he was fulfilling a world saving prophecy?

[Black Crow]

Red the dream is just a symbolic dream, seeing as Jon felt no cold it could the armor was a visual representation that he was protected against it.I don't think there was an armor of "any kind"that Jon will be wearing ice or not as both would be just as impractical.

Yes, as I've said its all symbolic, and all in Jon's mind. Its not a wolf dream or Mel's trick with the tea leaves. He's not looking at something which has happened or will happen but is rather reflecting his own inner conflicts.

He's in black, because blacks are all that he does wear, he's Black Jon, and he's armoured in ice not because he's being granted a vision of the future but because he belongs to the Old Gods and to the Ice and that's part of his inner conflict.

ETA: spelling

[Frey family reunion]

@ Eira Seren loved your essay on the bones as a storehouse of memories. It brings to mind certain Hindu beliefs which are manifested in their cremation rituals. There are some similarities between Drogo's funeral pyre and ancient Hindu cremations (such as the positioning of the body). The belief is that the soul of the deceased is not truly free to take up their next life until the physical body is completely destroyed (thus no bones). I personally believe that Drogo's cremation may have been a catalyst for him to take up a second life of sorts in Drogon.

I think GRRM has dropped hints about reincarnation especially among the Targaryens (for example I wonder if it is coincidence that Rhaegar is born on the day of Aegon V's death at Summerhall, and how Rhaegar's death may synch up with Dany's conception). After all we know that dragons frequently change gender. Do we have a Dragon moving from life to life from Aegon V to Rhaegar to Daenaerys?

[Black Crow]

As to the business of Rhaegar, I think that we may be in danger of overcomplicating things, as those in another place do.

Lord Tywin was summoned and in due course turned up and changed sides, but there's no suggestion that Aerys turned to Rossart because Tywin failed him. I'm happy to go with the suggestion that re-appointing him Hand never figured in Aerys calculations.

What I'm slightly more interested in is that very casual remark abour Rhaegar returning from the south, which suggests that although he may have been out of touch at the beginning, his whereabouts and possible purpose may actually have been known for some time. Aerys ordered Martell to take command of the Dornishmen marching up the Kingsroad - was raising them what Rhaegar had actually been doing?

Because there's another point very wilfully ignored in another place. The so-called tower of joy was not a remote hiding place by any stretch of the imagination. It was situated at the mouth of the Prince's Pass, which other than the Boneway is the only road over the Red Mountains and into Dorne - and although it might be steeper is otherwise a lot shorter amd easier than the Boneway.

[Black Crow]

I think GRRM has dropped hints about reincarnation especially among the Targaryens (for example I wonder if it is coincidence that Rhaegar is born on the day of Aegon V's death at Summerhall, and how Rhaegar's death may synch up with Dany's conception). After all we know that dragons frequently change gender. Do we have a Dragon moving from life to life from Aegon V to Rhaegar to Daenaerys?

Oh I like that.

[Frey family reunion]

I really can't get on board with this particular theory because everything else aside it requires Good Queen Alysanne hanging about in the north for close on a year and apart from her husband who may have been the conciliator but is hardly likely to have missed or overlooked something like that.

That's not to say there isn't a hidden significance to Queenscrown, but I really don't think this one has legs - or wings.

Tried to respond to this earlier but my computer was acting all buggy. You raise a fair point. My initial thought was that Queenscrown may have been a place where she gave birth instead of being a place where the conception occurred. Which would shorten the timeline a bit and may also provide a reason that she needed to seperate herself from her husband for a time (maybe around the time that she was starting to show).

Ultimately I wonder why GRRM needed to seprate Alysanne from the Old King. And if there is a secret Targaryen line up north, Alysanne would have been one of the few Targaryens that has had an extensive involvement up north. If Jon may be involved with dragons (and I know that this isn't a popular theory on this board) then he might need to have two drops of dragon blood, a paternal drop and a maternal one. I just wonder if there may have been a hidden Targaryen line in House Flint giving Jon a maternal lineage and also perhaps an answer as to who the stone dragons are.

But I understand this theory relies a lot on references to external sources. I do wonder however how a mountain clan like the First Flints developed two more traditional Houses further south.

[Amoracchius]

Do we have a Dragon moving from life to life from Aegon V to Rhaegar to Daenaerys?

...or to Jon?

[Melifeather]

Very, very good question. I don't know how she could. But in some other threads, there are people who might insist (maybe) that Rhaegar was just that awesome. The Don Juan's Don Juan, I suppose. Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, "able..." to seduce even the most reluctant and strong-willed of women against all reason. Quite dreamy, really. And such a great loss... <_<

No possible way that Rhaegar was so perfect. Absolutely NO other character in the series is without fault of some kind. Even good people make bad choices. Rhaegar will not be an exception.

Definitely possible. And I may have cut off the passage from Jaime's POV too soon - the very next sentence mentions Varys, stoking Aerys' suspicions and paranoia. Not that Varys is the answer - but Martin certainly seems to offer the suggestion for anyone inclined to take it...

Also possible. Though at some point, it starts to feel like people see whatever they want to see when it comes to the question of Rhaegar and Lyanna, doesn't it? Characters and readers both. And when he's not writing anything (and he's written practically nothing about this particular relationship, as it turns out - which is not to suggest there was a relationship at all)... Martin just sits back, and enjoys the show. It's almost a social experiment, really. With the reading public as the test population.

Agreed. I think it's fascinating to see so many readers "read in" the more typical, idealized, fairy-tale heros, using the spaces Martin leaves unfilled in his own story. And I continue to think that Martin may not ever fill in the gaps - at least not completely. (What better way to ensure the work remains relevant, spurring continued conversation and debate about the story?)

The more R + L = J is discussed, the more my suspicions grow that Lyanna never left Winterfell at all and hid in the crypts the entire time just like the Bael story. Rhaegar was suspected, yes, but not only did it seem out of character, but he also didn't follow through with people's expectations of a man in love. Either he raped her or he loved her. Which explains leaving Lyanna to give birth alone? Neither explanations fit and so I don't think he kidnapped her at all. I think Mance played Bael and kept Lyanna in the crypts. Ned's fever dream was just that: a dream.

[Amoracchius]

The more R + L = J is discussed, the more my suspicions grow that Lyanna never left Winterfell at all and hid in the crypts the entire time just like the Bael story. Rhaegar was suspected, yes, but not only did it seem out of character, but he also didn't follow through with people's expectations of a man in love. Either he raped her or he loved her. Which explains leaving Lyanna to give birth alone? Neither explanations fit and so I don't think he kidnapped her at all. I think Mance played Bael and kept Lyanna in the crypts. Ned's fever dream was just that: a dream.

Wait...what?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Many characters like Jorah, Ned, Cersei and etc. noticed that Rhaegar was honorable man who couldn't rape lady. Hovewer, in one interview GRRM said that young girl who runs off from arranged marriage is unrealistic.

Depending on how you parse things... these observations may or may not be as clear as you think. For instance, Ned's precise recollection about Rhaegar was couched like this:

"For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not."

Aside from the fact that it had been years since Ned even remembered Rhaegar (fascinating enough on it's own)... I can think of more than one explanation for why Rhaegar might not have frequented brothels. Actually, off the top of my head I can think of three - each of which would impact the story in a different way. And only one of them boils down to the idea that "Rhaegar was an honorable man."

Even Martin's own comment leaves room for interpretation, I think. After all... who says Lyanna was "realistic?" ;)

I hadn't remembered that Jaime told that story in the middle of his recount the heraldry of Aerys's last Hands. Very interesting.

...

To be clear - that comment about Hands rising and falling in rapid succession appears in an earlier chapter (same book)... so those two memories do not appear side by side in the same passage. They are related, however, insofar as Jaime recalls events surrounding the aftermath of the Battle of the Bells, and refers to the various Hands by their sigils... Connington is "dancing griffins," Chelsted is "mace and dagger", etc. So Martin separates the comments in the text, but there really doesn't seem to be any significant distinction to separate the recollections in Jaime's mind.

[Direwolf Blitzer]

About R+L: many people think that R&L were in love and Lyanna ran off voluntarily. But how could Lyanna make love with Rhaegar in ToJ while king Aerys was tormenting and killing her father and older brother, while he was trying to kill Ned, while the war was walking through the country?

Fair point, but it could also be seen as a variation on Romeo and Juliet, fairly common throughout literature,

Lastly, Obsidian armour would only serve as a defense,unless Jon hugs it or something.Which goes back to my inital query on why one would make a sword that is vulnerable to the substance you yourself are vulnerable to?

My new favorite theory. The series won't end with a climactic, set-piece battle. Jon will just give the Great Other a hug, and melt him with his sweet, obsidian love.

It's already gone off. This is an eleven act play, apparently, so it went off well before the last act. Daenerys had a miscarriage after eating the poison berries in the Dothraki Sea at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Hidzahr and/or Fabio Naharis would be so disappointed to learn of it. Her womb has quickened, so something big should be coming. However, she has to spend the next book hanging with her buddies in the Dothraki hordes.

Well played, sir. I didn't even think miscarriage when I read that, but it's certainly plausible. I've quoted the passage in question below, for convenience.

Moon blood, it's only my moon blood, but she did not remember ever having such a heavy flow.

When I first read that, I just assumed she was bleeding out her arse. Which is sort of less poetic, but still possible, I imagine.

Oh I like that.

Maybe the dragon souls wander back and forth between Targs and actual dragons? No in-text evidence for it, but it would explain why Targs and dragons are friends.

Wait...what?

Yeah, Ned pretty clearly saw Lyanna die at the ToJ. She was not hiding in the crypts. (Unless the Lyanna Ned saw was really a skinchanger Faceless Man hired by Varys...!)

It would be something of a downer if she knew all this.But her abduction or elopement took place before all the events you outlined above.The Tower of Joy was probably chosen for it's isolation and secrecy,so that ongoing developments could be kept from her ears.

I'm not saying she didn't run off voluntarily,but it doesn't say good things about her.Though this is Martin's world and no one's perfect.

Except Dany and Rhaegar. I keep expecting George to drop another shoe on us or something. He presents Rhaegar and, to a slightly lesser degree, Dany, as unambiguously heroic characters. Dany may make some poor choices, but her motivations are always pure. She wants to free the slaves and feed her children. And yet, the words of her house are "Fire and Blood." The Targs are essentially a fancier version of the khalasars or the ironmen, who take what they want and kill whoever stands in their way. Preferably with fire.

In short, Mirri Maz Duur was totally in the right. Why does no one else (in-world, anyway) acknowledge that?

[Debra Morgan]

The more R + L = J is discussed, the more my suspicions grow that Lyanna never left Winterfell at all and hid in the crypts the entire time just like the Bael story. Rhaegar was suspected, yes, but not only did it seem out of character, but he also didn't follow through with people's expectations of a man in love. Either he raped her or he loved her. Which explains leaving Lyanna to give birth alone? Neither explanations fit and so I don't think he kidnapped her at all. I think Mance played Bael and kept Lyanna in the crypts. Ned's fever dream was just that: a dream.

I don't understand this thing: if Jon is son of R&L why did guards with Lyanna stay at ToJ? They knew that Robert won the battle, that KL was captured by Tywin. What if Robert went to ToJ instead of Ned and killed Jon? King's guards must have done everything to protect their prince but they did nothing.

[Debra Morgan]

Even Martin's own comment leaves room for interpretation, I think. After all... who says Lyanna was "realistic?" ;)

Martin said in that interview that only bad writers can write unrealistic things.

See:

http://entertainment.time.com/2011/04/18/grrm-interview-part-2-fantasy-and-history/

And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Martin said in that interview that only bad writers can write unrealistic things.

See:

http://entertainment.time.com/2011/04/18/grrm-interview-part-2-fantasy-and-history/

And then there are some things that are just dont square with history. In some sense Im trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when theres an arranged marriage, the girl doesnt want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didnt. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. Thats how you did it. It wasnt questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldnt run off with the stable boy.

.

Ah well... the link does help. Though it also distinguishes Martin's hypothetical from Lyanna's story rather clearly, doesn't it? Whether or not you think she "ran off" in the face of an arranged marriage... I've yet to see anyone accuse her of romantic involvement with Hodor! :laugh:

.

[Hrafntýr]

Ah well... the link does help. Though it also distinguishes Martin's hypothetical from Lyanna's story rather clearly, doesn't it? Whether or not you think she "ran off" in the face of an arranged marriage... I've yet to see anyone accuse her of romantic involvement with Hodor! ;)

Whoa, Snowfyre Chorus, I think you just solved the puzzle of why Hodor was afraid of the crypts: he's haunted by guilt for having stayed there with his bride Lyanna for a year!

[Amoracchius]

Martin said in that interview that only bad writers can write unrealistic things.

See:

http://entertainment.time.com/2011/04/18/grrm-interview-part-2-fantasy-and-history/

And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.

But she didn't run off with the stable boy. If she ran off at all, she ran off with the crown prince. Very different scenario.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Snowfyre.

[Black Crow]

There is that comment by Ned about the wolf blood and how Lyanna's wildness killed her, which I've always taken as referring to an impulsive act - which she afterwards regretted. Rhaegar may not be the raggle-taggle gypsy, but that's not to rule out her getting too deep into something in a direction which she never intended.

[Frey family reunion]

Fair point, but it could also be seen as a variation on Romeo and Juliet, fairly common throughout literature,

Which is the exact reason why so many of use doubt that GRRM is following this cliche. It seems GRRM is happily subverting a number of common fantasy tropes.

[Hrafntýr]

Since you mention the raggle-taggle gypsy, BC, you know we do get a song that is similar, in Arya's chapter when she's with the BwB at Acorn Hall. Tom O'Sevens is singing:

My featherbed is deep and soft,

and there I'll lay you down,

I'll dress you all in yellow silk,

and on your head a crown.

For you shall be my lady love,

and I shall be your lord.

I'll always keep you warm and safe,

and guard you with my sword.

Arya and Gendry enter the hall after they've just been fighting. Lem chastises Gendry for fighting with a girl, and Arya asserts that she started it, with Harwin agreeing that she no doubt did. Tom winks at Arya and recommences the song:

And how she smiled and how she laughed,

The maiden of the tree.

She spun away and said to him,

no featherbed for me.

I'll wear a crown of golden leaves,

and bind my hair with grass,

But you can be my forest love,

and me your forest lass.

I've always found "the maiden of the tree" to be reminiscent of Lyanna as KotLT, and the song certainly conveys a sense of the "wolf-blood," which perhaps Tom O'Sevens is seeing in Arya, who is said to resemble Lyanna so closely. I sometimes wonder if Tom O'Sevens might have been part of the singers' competition at the Tourney at Harrenhall (the one that Bran so infuriatingly made Meera skip over in her account of the ToH!): he's old enough, and seems to have been a lifetime resident of the Riverlands.