Heresy 128

[Black Crow]

Since you mention the raggle-taggle gypsy, BC, you know we do get a song that is similar, in Arya's chapter when she's with the BwB at Acorn Hall. Tom O'Sevens is singing:

Oh very well caught indeed, and the point is that if it is a song about Harrenhal, its certainly not the scenario being so ardently promoted by the faithful in another place.

[Debra Morgan]

But she didn't run off with the stable boy. If she ran off at all, she ran off with the crown prince. Very different scenario.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Snowfyre.

But Martin wouldn't say this spoiler about crown prince.

[Eira Seren]

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Shaw: Is there a certain reason why they named obsidian "dragonglass" or why you did that?

Martin: Yes, there is a reason.

Shaw: Are dragons somehow the mortal enemy of the Others?

Martin: There are a lot of legends, and you'll be hearing more about them in the future books, but a lot of stuff about Others and about dragons maybe isn't completely understood by the people of the present. Obsidian is of course volcanic glass; it's formed by immense heat and pressure down in the earth. The dragons themselves are creatures of intense heat.

Shaw: Do you know what substance an Other sword is made from.

Martin: Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it. ______________________________________________

This may be of relevance to last night's discussion.

What makes the ice not regular? Must be the magic.

Water, H2O is a very, very unique molecule… this is primarily due to it's polarity & bonding angle, I will not get more specific than that. Water, can exists in 4 phases (plasma, gas, liquid & solid), just like all other substances known to man. However, water is once again unique in that in it's pure form it is capable of forming multiple different forms of it's solid state. Ice is the only one that exists on earth, but it is theorized that under intense pressure, water can form other substances. It is thought that the Jupiter's core is made from one of these forms of water & 'water substance' is responsible for Jupiter's HUGE magnetic shield (which prevents the solar wind from blowing away it's atmosphere - the earth has an iron core that serves the same purpose on a much smaller scale)...

So the point is that water can form at least two, possibly more solid substances each with radically different properties (Ice = non-magnetic; core of Jupiter = highly-magnetic)… Perhaps GRRM is aware of this fact...

I still think that the White Walkers are actually constructed of frozen air. Their outer "shell" and bones are frozen nitrogen, and their pale blue "blood" is liquid oxygen. When Sam stabs the Puddles with his obisidan dagger, the frozen nitrogen heats to liquid nitrogen which accounts for the rivulets and the blood starts to revert back to gas which accounts for the "steam".

I wonder if the sword could be frozen carbon dioxide which could account for the high pitch squeal when the sword touched Waymer's sword. It's called Bernoulli's principle:

http://www.ehow.com/facts_7187818_metal-scream-touches-dry-ice_.html

It might also explain why there is no mention of Puddle's sword after he melts. When Carbon Dioxide heats up it goes straight from solid to gaseous form. So it would just kind of disappear.

Science! these are really good explanations.

@ Eira Seren loved your essay on the bones as a storehouse of memories. It brings to mind certain Hindu beliefs which are manifested in their cremation rituals. There are some similarities between Drogo's funeral pyre and ancient Hindu cremations (such as the positioning of the body). The belief is that the soul of the deceased is not truly free to take up their next life until the physical body is completely destroyed (thus no bones). I personally believe that Drogo's cremation may have been a catalyst for him to take up a second life of sorts in Drogon.

I think GRRM has dropped hints about reincarnation especially among the Targaryens (for example I wonder if it is coincidence that Rhaegar is born on the day of Aegon V's death at Summerhall, and how Rhaegar's death may synch up with Dany's conception). After all we know that dragons frequently change gender. Do we have a Dragon moving from life to life from Aegon V to Rhaegar to Daenaerys?

Thanks! The connection between the Hindu beliefs and the release of the soul is fascinating. It's really suggestive, too, of similarities between the Targs and Dragons and what happens with warging and the Starks.

As to the business of Rhaegar, I think that we may be in danger of overcomplicating things, as those in another place do.

Lord Tywin was summoned and in due course turned up and changed sides, but there's no suggestion that Aerys turned to Rossart because Tywin failed him. I'm happy to go with the suggestion that re-appointing him Hand never figured in Aerys calculations.

What I'm slightly more interested in is that very casual remark abour Rhaegar returning from the south, which suggests that although he may have been out of touch at the beginning, his whereabouts and possible purpose may actually have been known for some time. Aerys ordered Martell to take command of the Dornishmen marching up the Kingsroad - was raising them what Rhaegar had actually been doing?

Because there's another point very wilfully ignored in another place. The so-called tower of joy was not a remote hiding place by any stretch of the imagination. It was situated at the mouth of the Prince's Pass, which other than the Boneway is the only road over the Red Mountains and into Dorne - and although it might be steeper is otherwise a lot shorter amd easier than the Boneway.

Oh. That's outstanding. Why not? A war already brewing for the throne would be the perfect time for the crown prince to finally step up, like he's been promising to do.

Aerys may have viewed the communication with Tywin as part of a plot.

Depending on how you parse things... these observations may or may not be as clear as you think. For instance, Ned's precise recollection about Rhaegar was couched like this:

"For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not."

Aside from the fact that it had been years since Ned even remembered Rhaegar (fascinating enough on it's own)... I can think of more than one explanation for why Rhaegar might not have frequented brothels. Actually, off the top of my head I can think of three - each of which would impact the story in a different way. And only one of them boils down to the idea that "Rhaegar was an honorable man."

Even Martin's own comment leaves room for interpretation, I think. After all... who says Lyanna was "realistic?" ;)

To be clear - that comment about Hands rising and falling in rapid succession appears in an earlier chapter (same book)... so those two memories do not appear side by side in the same passage. They are related, however, insofar as Jaime recalls events surrounding the aftermath of the Battle of the Bells, and refers to the various Hands by their sigils... Connington is "dancing griffins," Chelsted is "mace and dagger", etc. So Martin separates the comments in the text, but there really doesn't seem to be any significant distinction to separate the recollections in Jaime's mind.

Though, if you look at that passage, make sure to look at in in the context, which is within the larger chapter. A long time ago I did an analysis of that chapter, it's no longer stored in my posts and I won't totally recreate it here. But Ned's observations about Rhaegar on his way to the whorehouse to meet with the mother of Robert's bastard grow out of his musings on bastards and Robert in general.

So not only is he thinking (in the middle of warm rain that's coming down like 'blood' or 'old guilts') about his own sins (presumably, a bastard son) but there's even a memory of Lyanna, complaining that Robert "will never keep to one bed." Taken together, there's a parallel or comparison being set up between Robert and Rhaegar. There's some rather unspoken reasons as to why Ned's doing this comparison. . . another chance for the social experiment, no doubt :)

Why would Tywin include Kevan in something if it were to his advantage to keep it to himself? There's that old line about 'some wars are won with quills and ravens.' Or maybe. . . not responding when one receives a raven? The suggestion that someone may have tampered with the letter is a good one, too. Still, if something's being covered up, my money's on Tywin.

[Frey family reunion]

Oh I like that.

And we know The Dragon has three heads, but who says they need to all exist at the same time? (Aegon V - Rhaegar - Daenaerys = The Dragon).

[Eira Seren]

Since you mention the raggle-taggle gypsy, BC, you know we do get a song that is similar, in Arya's chapter when she's with the BwB at Acorn Hall. Tom O'Sevens is singing:

My featherbed is deep and soft,

and there I'll lay you down,

I'll dress you all in yellow silk,

and on your head a crown.

For you shall be my lady love,

and I shall be your lord.

I'll always keep you warm and safe,

and guard you with my sword.

Arya and Gendry enter the hall after they've just been fighting. Lem chastises Gendry for fighting with a girl, and Arya asserts that she started it, with Harwin agreeing that she no doubt did. Tom winks at Arya and recommences the song:

And how she smiled and how she laughed,

The maiden of the tree.

She spun away and said to him,

no featherbed for me.

I'll wear a crown of golden leaves,

and bind my hair with grass,

But you can be my forest love,

and me your forest lass.

I've always found "the maiden of the tree" to be reminiscent of Lyanna as KotLT, and the song certainly conveys a sense of the "wolf-blood," which perhaps Tom O'Sevens is seeing in Arya, who is said to resemble Lyanna so closely. I sometimes wonder if Tom O'Sevens might have been part of the singers' competition at the Tourney at Harrenhall (the one that Bran so infuriatingly made Meera skip over in her account of the ToH!): he's old enough, and seems to have been a lifetime resident of the Riverlands.

Right? Would love to hear more about Tom O'Sevens backstory. He always seems to know far more than he lets on.

Great job on the song. It sounds like one of several versions of Ned of the Hill

Oh dark is the evening and silent the hour

Oh who is that minstrel by yon shady tower

His harp oh so tenderly touching with skill

Oh who could it be but young Ned of the Hill

And he sings, "Lady love, come to me now

Come and live merrily under the bough

I'll pillow your head where the fairies tread

If you will but wed with Ned of the Hill"

Young Ned of the Hill has no castle or hall

No bowmen or spearmen to gather at his call

But one little archer of exquisite skill

Has loosed a bright shaft for young Ned of the Hill

Tis' hard to escape from this fair lady's bower

For high is the window and guarded the tower

But there's always a way where there is a will

And Eileen is off with Ned of the Hill

There's also Jock O' Hazeldean by Sir Walter Scott

‘Why weep ye by the tide, ladie?

Why weep ye by the tide?

I’ll wed ye to my youngest son,

And ye sall be his bride:

And ye sall be his bride, ladie,

Sae comely to be seen’—

But aye she loot the tears down fa’

For Jock o’ Hazeldean.

‘Now let this wilfu’ grief be done,

And dry that cheek so pale;

Young Frank is chief of Errington

And lord of Langley-dale;

His step is first in peaceful ha’,

His sword in battle keen’—

But aye she loot the tears down fa’

For Jock o’ Hazeldean.

‘A chain of gold ye sall not lack,

Nor braid to bind your hair;

Nor mettled hound, nor managed hawk,

Nor palfrey fresh and fair;

And you, the foremost o’ them a’,

Shall ride our forest queen’—

But aye she loot the tears down fa’

For Jock o’ Hazeldean.

The kirk was decked at morning-tide,

The tapers glimmered fair;

The priest and bridegroom wait the bride,

And dame and knight are there.

They sought her baith by bower and ha’;

The ladie was not seen!

She’s o’er the Border and awa’

Wi’ Jock o’ Hazeldean.

So there we are. The moral of the story in GRRM's case being that getaways with shiny men don't always work out so well.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

And we know The Dragon has three heads, but who says they need to all exist at the same time? (Aegon V - Rhaegar - Daenaerys = The Dragon).

That's some true out-of-the-box thinking, FFR. Not sure I'm ready to go that far with it yet, but the tie-in to Hindu cremation traditions is very nice. It even dove-tails rather well with what we see happening up North - with animated wights, and spirits that cannot (or will not) rest until the physical body is completely destroyed. The coinciding of births and deaths (or conceptions and deaths) would be really interesting pattern to trace, I think - and beyond the question of dragons alone...

Though, if you look at that passage, make sure to look at in in the context, which is within the larger chapter. A long time ago I did an analysis of that chapter, it's no longer stored in my posts and I won't totally recreate it here. But Ned's observations about Rhaegar on his way to the whorehouse to meet with the mother of Robert's bastard grow out of his musings on bastards and Robert in general.

So not only is he thinking (in the middle of warm rain that's coming down like 'blood' or 'old guilts') about his own sins (presumably, a bastard son) but there's even a memory of Lyanna, complaining that Robert "will never keep to one bed." Taken together, there's a parallel or comparison being set up between Robert and Rhaegar. There's some rather unspoken reasons as to why Ned's doing this comparison. . . another chance for the social experiment, no doubt :)

Agreed - context is important. And I think it's on his return from the brothel that Ned ruminates on these things. But that only serves to emphasis my earlier aside with respect to Rhaegar, I think. It's obviously not been years since Ned remembered Lyanna... in fact, it's only been 9 paragraphs (depending on how you count the dialogue). And only 7 paragraphs since he "saw Jon Snow's face in front of him" through the rain. The fact that Ned hasn't considered memories of Rhaegar in years certainly seems to put some distance between the "R" and the "L" of theories...

[Frey family reunion]

...or to Jon?

I've thought of that but I'm inclined to think that if Aegon V/Rhaegar has been reincarnated it's probably through Dany. Just like Rhaegar seemed to have a psychic connection with Summerhall, Dany seems to have a similar connection with Rhaegar. Even dreaming of his battles on the Trident, only when the visor was lifted, it was her face not Rhaegar's.

Jon's dreams take him to Winterfell and not Rhaegar which makes me think Jon has more of a connection with his maternal side than his paternal.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I've thought of that but I'm inclined to think that if Aegon V/Rhaegar has been reincarnated it's probably through Dany. Just like Rhaegar seemed to have a psychic connection with Summerhall, Dany seems to have a similar connection with Rhaegar. Even dreaming of his battles on the Trident, only when the visor was lifted, it was her face not Rhaegar's.

Jon's dreams take him to Winterfell and not Rhaegar which makes me think Jon has more of a connection with his maternal side than his paternal.

Interesting. Hadn't made that connection, but if Rhaegar dreams of Summerhall and Dany dreams of the Trident... it does almost look like they are each connected to the final "resting place" of a particular family member.

[Black Crow]

So there we are. The moral of the story in GRRM's case being that getaways with shiny men don't always work out so well.

And the common denominator is that respectable married life doesn't figure in the story.

[Black Crow]

A war already brewing for the throne would be the perfect time for the crown prince to finally step up, like he's been promising to do.

In keeping with the general tone of the conversation this evening its possible to plausibly expand this into a very different scenario from the one promoted in another place.

Lyanna runs off with the raggle-taggle-gypsy-o, but whether he offers or not marriage is not intended. She may be wild and up for it but she's not stupid.

There are hints they may end up at Starfall, but when Rhaegar learns of the rebellion he does the sensible thing and raises the Dornish in the name of his wife Elia Martell. Given the urgency they march north through the Prince's Pass rather than the long way around by the Boneway, and at Kings Landing young Martell is ordered by Aerys to take command of the Dornish because Rhaegar has to command the army. The rest is history but meanwhile back at the Prince's Pass Lyanna has to be left behind- heavily guarded - on account of her being heavily pregnant and in no state to travel further

[alienarea]

Random, off-topic comment/question #1... What's going on with the number 19?

• There are 19 dragon skulls at the Red Keep
• Craster had 19 wives
• There are 19 forts along the south side of the Wall

Is it "just" the magic number of the metonic cycle? Is it related to Brighid, and the ongoing triple goddess motif - ? Is there more of an in-story connection to be made?

(Advisory: more random, off-topic questions to come. I've got a few of these things that I keep circling back to, and I've decided to share the bewilderment.)

That relates to my favorite pet theory #2:

ASoIaF is based on pop music mainly from the 1970s and 1980s.

The "bad" Houses are [Glenn] Frey and [Michael] Bolton. No doubt 19 relates to Paul Hardcastle.

We have bastards named [Roger] Waters and of course The Wall .

The Stark logo is the cover art to Will the Wolf Survive? by Los Lobos.

Don't forget the albino blues player [Johnny] Winter. RIP.

And the Black Crowes.

Chris de Burgh's painful Lady in Red.

A little earlier Roky Erickson wrote Red Temple Prayer .

Of course the Game of Thrones slogan was shamelessly borrowed from Abba: The Winner takes it all.

A newer addition is Poliça's Darkstar.

[Frey family reunion]

That relates to my favorite pet theory #2:

ASoIaF is based on pop music mainly from the 1970s and 1980s.

The "bad" Houses are [Glenn] Frey and [Michael] Bolton. No doubt 19 relates to Paul Hardcastle.

We have bastards named [Roger] Waters and of course The Wall .

The Stark logo is the cover art to Will the Wolf Survive? by Los Lobos.

Don't forget the albino blues player [Johnny] Winter. RIP.

And the Black Crowes.

Chris de Burgh's painful Lady in Red.

A little earlier Roky Erickson wrote Red Temple Prayer .

Of course the Game of Thrones slogan was shamelessly borrowed from Abba: The Winner takes it all.

A newer addition is Poliça's Darkstar.

Don't forget the 1995 German pop group Fool's Garden and their hit single: The Lemon Tree.

[alienarea]

Don't forget the 1995 German pop group Fool's Garden and their hit single: The Lemon Tree.

And Bon Jovi Keep the Faith.

[Frey family reunion]

And Lyanna's them song by the Smithereens "Blood and Roses".

[Eira Seren]

That's some true out-of-the-box thinking, FFR. Not sure I'm ready to go that far with it yet, but the tie-in to Hindu cremation traditions is very nice. It even dove-tails rather well with what we see happening up North - with animated wights, and spirits that cannot (or will not) rest until the physical body is completely destroyed. The coinciding of births and deaths (or conceptions and deaths) would be really interesting pattern to trace, I think - and beyond the question of dragons alone...

Agreed - context is important. And I think it's on his return from the brothel that Ned ruminates on these things. But that only serves to emphasis my earlier aside with respect to Rhaegar, I think. It's obviously not been years since Ned remembered Lyanna... in fact, it's only been 9 paragraphs (depending on how you count the dialogue). And only 7 paragraphs since he "saw Jon Snow's face in front of him" through the rain. The fact that Ned hasn't considered memories of Rhaegar in years certainly seems to put some distance between the "R" and the "L" of theories...

Ok, you've made me do it. I went back to find that chapter. And in the previous Ned chapter,right after the argument with Robert over killing Dany (where he resigns as Hand, and right before Pervy Pete offers him the brothel excursion) Ned speaks to Vayon Poole:

"The king and I have quarrelled. We shall be returning to Winterfell"

"I shall begin making arrangements at once, my lord. We will need a fortnight to ready everything for the journey."

"We may not have a fortnight. We may not have a day. The king mentioned somthing about seeing my head on a spike." Ned frowned. He did not truly believe the king would harm him, not Robert. He was angry now, but once Ned was safely out of sight, his rage would cool as it always did.

Always? Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion. . .

He then goes on to think about what Jon Arryn was investigating and whether or not Stannis might know. "The truth he sought might very well be waiting for him on the ancient island fortress of House Targaryen.

And when you have it, what then? Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. Ned slid the dagger that Catelyn had brought him out of the sheath on his belt.

Things I'm noticing:

1) Cat, already present in Ned's thoughts as part of his calculations about how soon he'd better leave (before word goes public of Cat kidnapping Tyrion), is mentioned again. Right after Ned thinks about keeping secrets from people you love and trust. Hmmm. . . what secret could Ned be keeping from Cat?

2) Suddenly Ned is thinking about Targs again: Dany, Dragonstone, Rhaegar. And about Robert's uncontrollable rage in regards to Targs.

3) Perhaps this is the first time he's thought about Rhaegar in years, though he saves that claim for the next chapter (the whorehouse chapter).

In regards to the whorehouse chapter, here's the rundown:

Ned on the way to Chataya's: "The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as bood and relentless as old guilts. Fat drops of water ran down his face.

'Robert will never keep to one bed,' Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. 'I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.' Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. 'Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature.'

Cut to Ned meeting Barra, and the mother asking him to tell Robert how "beautiful" the child is. Ned promises, thinking about how he always keeps his promises (unlike Robert) and then Ned thinks about "the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them."

Back out in the rain, "Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own." Ned listens while Baelish lists some of Robert's bastards. Ned wonders why Jon Arryn cared about them.

'Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. 'Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he's like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east.'

'There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.'

Suddenly, Jamie Lannister arrives.

There's a lot being woven together. The mention of Lyanna directly after the 'relentless old guilts,' specifically in relation to her disliking the idea of marrying Robert seems important (and Robert's daughter, Mya Stone). Then we have Ned meeting another bastard, the promises to Lyanna, Jon's mention, more musings on bastards. And then the comparison between Robert and Rhaegar. Who we know, whether Ned realizes it or not, that Ned has been thinking about already.

And all at the time when Ned is just about to solve his own big mystery.

In keeping with the general tone of the conversation this evening its possible to plausibly expand this into a very different scenario from the one promoted in another place.

Lyanna runs off with the raggle-taggle-gypsy-o, but whether he offers or not marriage is not intended. She may be wild and up for it but she's not stupid.

There are hints they may end up at Starfall, but when Rhaegar learns of the rebellion he does the sensible thing and raises the Dornish in the name of his wife Elia Martell. Given the urgency they march north through the Prince's Pass rather than the long way around by the Boneway, and at Kings Landing young Martell is ordered by Aerys to take command of the Dornish because Rhaegar has to command the army. The rest is history but meanwhile back at the Prince's Pass Lyanna has to be left behind- heavily guarded - on account of her being heavily pregnant and in no state to travel further

A good point. And Rhaegar probably pinned all his hope for change and for winning his father around to stepping down on 2) rallying the Dornish troops and 2) being victorious in the final battle.

[wolfmaid7]

Random, off-topic comment/question #1... What's going on with the number 19?

• There are 19 dragon skulls at the Red Keep
• Craster had 19 wives
• There are 19 forts along the south side of the Wall

Is it "just" the magic number of the metonic cycle? Is it related to Brighid, and the ongoing triple goddess motif - ? Is there more of an in-story connection to be made?

(Advisory: more random, off-topic questions to come. I've got a few of these things that I keep circling back to, and I've decided to share the bewilderment.)

I have to say looking at the depiction of the cycle i got a whole Astrolabe ish vibe.

@ Snowfyre...The metronic cycle...THIS is why I love this thread. Always some smart person with intense curiosity, willing to share information with the rest of us! NOT mathematical myself, but have to wonder if you have just solved a time line issue...if some " years" begin at the first full moon after a solstice, and the seasons are used by other record keepers as beginnings of years?

edit:clarity

True true

I still think that the White Walkers are actually constructed of frozen air. Their outer "shell" and bones are frozen nitrogen, and their pale blue "blood" is liquid oxygen. When Sam stabs the Puddles with his obisidan dagger, the frozen nitrogen heats to liquid nitrogen which accounts for the rivulets and the blood starts to revert back to gas which accounts for the "steam".

I wonder if the sword could be frozen carbon dioxide which could account for the high pitch squeal when the sword touched Waymer's sword. It's called Bernoulli's principle:

http://www.ehow.com/facts_7187818_metal-scream-touches-dry-ice_.html

It might also explain why there is no mention of Puddle's sword after he melts. When Carbon Dioxide heats up it goes straight from solid to gaseous form. So it would just kind of disappear.

We had this conversation a while a back and scientifically a lot could be explained except when you start to look at things a bit closer it is more magical.For instance all around there is a fire component to the wws themselves and the reason i think the Obsidian worked on them is not because it is fire and heated aspects of them up. It worked because it is an anomaly like them having both a cold and hot combination( super cool lava).Whereas a Dragon is "just" a creature of heat,it may not do the wws anything. If there is ever a reason to fight the wws it will probably be a case of fighting fire with fire so to speak.

Yes, as I've said its all symbolic, and all in Jon's mind. Its not a wold dream or Mel's trick with the tea leaves. He's not looking at something which has happened or will happen but is rather reflecting his own inner conflicts.

He's in black, because blacks are all that he does wear, he's Black Jon, and he's armoured in ice not because he's being granted a vision of the future but because he belongs to the Old Gods and to the Ice and that's part of his inner conflict.

:agree: I really think this dream is a peak into Jon,its the " i'm all alone,its only me that can do this because nobody knows,every body abandoned me" etc. Its not a coincidence that when he first reunited with Ghost he said " i thought you left me like Robb,Ygritte and all the rest". These people died Jon,they didn't just chose to leave you they kicked the bucket.He has a little character flaw which is realistic to him.Part of whay i brought up in the Shadow thread about the dark ego of the 'second sons'. His mentality about his watch,his Wall is no different than Stannis with his realm,his crown. There is a reason Mel said Jon and Stannis have a lot in common.They have a vain sense of humility.

@ Eira Seren loved your essay on the bones as a storehouse of memories. It brings to mind certain Hindu beliefs which are manifested in their cremation rituals. There are some similarities between Drogo's funeral pyre and ancient Hindu cremations (such as the positioning of the body). The belief is that the soul of the deceased is not truly free to take up their next life until the physical body is completely destroyed (thus no bones). I personally believe that Drogo's cremation may have been a catalyst for him to take up a second life of sorts in Drogon.

I think GRRM has dropped hints about reincarnation especially among the Targaryens (for example I wonder if it is coincidence that Rhaegar is born on the day of Aegon V's death at Summerhall, and how Rhaegar's death may synch up with Dany's conception). After all we know that dragons frequently change gender. Do we have a Dragon moving from life to life from Aegon V to Rhaegar to Daenaerys?

FFR this is freaking brilliant,in was waiting for you to bring this up again.You touched on it briefly i think before the Dragon thread closed.It did get me to thinking in the case of Summerhall i was thinking about the Targs trying to hatch the eggs there. Maybe one did hatch as Rheagar and we may have seen a reverse to Dany's Pyre where the essence in the egg went into him.It said he always came back from Summerhall with a new song(Dragonsong), and felt at home there why?

[wolfmaid7]

My new favorite theory. The series won't end with a climactic, set-piece battle. Jon will just give the Great Other a hug, and melt him with his sweet, obsidian love.

Great Other: I just,i just can't man.Its so cold its always cold and don't people get why i'm so moody.They are so insensitive man.I'm just trying to be apart of it all.I feel so left out.

Jon: Its ok man,just let it out shhhh.How bout a hug.Let me just melt those cares away.

And we know The Dragon has three heads, but who says they need to all exist at the same time? (Aegon V - Rhaegar - Daenaerys = The Dragon).

Sweeeeeet

Ok, you've made me do it. I went back to find that chapter. And in the previous Ned chapter,right after the argument with Robert over killing Dany (where he resigns as Hand, and right before Pervy Pete offers him the brothel excursion) Ned speaks to Vayon Poole:

"The king and I have quarrelled. We shall be returning to Winterfell"

"I shall begin making arrangements at once, my lord. We will need a fortnight to ready everything for the journey."

"We may not have a fortnight. We may not have a day. The king mentioned somthing about seeing my head on a spike." Ned frowned. He did not truly believe the king would harm him, not Robert. He was angry now, but once Ned was safely out of sight, his rage would cool as it always did.

Always? Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion. . .

He then goes on to think about what Jon Arryn was investigating and whether or not Stannis might know. "The truth he sought might very well be waiting for him on the ancient island fortress of House Targaryen.

And when you have it, what then? Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. Ned slid the dagger that Catelyn had brought him out of the sheath on his belt.

Things I'm noticing:

1) Cat, already present in Ned's thoughts as part of his calculations about how soon he'd better leave (before word goes public of Cat kidnapping Tyrion), is mentioned again. Right after Ned thinks about keeping secrets from people you love and trust. Hmmm. . . what secret could Ned be keeping from Cat?

2) Suddenly Ned is thinking about Targs again: Dany, Dragonstone, Rhaegar. And about Robert's uncontrollable rage in regards to Targs.

3) Perhaps this is the first time he's thought about Rhaegar in years, though he saves that claim for the next chapter (the whorehouse chapter).

In regards to the whorehouse chapter, here's the rundown:

Ned on the way to Chataya's: "The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as bood and relentless as old guilts. Fat drops of water ran down his face.

'Robert will never keep to one bed,' Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. 'I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.' Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. 'Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature.'

Cut to Ned meeting Barra, and the mother asking him to tell Robert how "beautiful" the child is. Ned promises, thinking about how he always keeps his promises (unlike Robert) and then Ned thinks about "the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them."

Back out in the rain, "Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own." Ned listens while Baelish lists some of Robert's bastards. Ned wonders why Jon Arryn cared about them.

'Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. 'Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he's like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east.'

'There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.'

Suddenly, Jamie Lannister arrives.

There's a lot being woven together. The mention of Lyanna directly after the 'relentless old guilts,' specifically in relation to her disliking the idea of marrying Robert seems important (and Robert's daughter, Mya Stone). Then we have Ned meeting another bastard, the promises to Lyanna, Jon's mention, more musings on bastards. And then the comparison between Robert and Rhaegar. Who we know, whether Ned realizes it or not, that Ned has been thinking about already.

And all at the time when Ned is just about to solve his own big mystery.

A good point. And Rhaegar probably pinned all his hope for change and for winning his father around to stepping down on 2) rallying the Dornish troops and 2) being victorious in the final battle.

I just always thought when Ned mentioned the brothel and Rheagar that was a subtle hint Rheagar was batting for the same team,or he was Di vinci or something. :dunno:

[Eira Seren]

Great Other: I just,i just can't man.Its so cold its always cold and don't people get why i'm so moody.They are so insensitive man.I'm just trying to be apart of it all.I feel so left out.

Jon: Its ok man,just let it out shhhh.How bout a hug.Let me just melt those cares away.

Sweeeeeet

I just always thought when Ned mentioned the brothel and Rheagar that was a subtle hint Rheagar was batting for the same team,or he was Di vinci or something. :dunno:

:lmao: Meanwhile, all the fans expecting a final battle are howling with rage. . .

Yeah, I know Wolfmaid. I think Rhaegar might have been into the lads as well. But in the hands of an English major, no passage is safe :)

[redriver]

Though, if you look at that passage, make sure to look at in in the context, which is within the larger chapter. A long time ago I did an analysis of that chapter, it's no longer stored in my posts and I won't totally recreate it here. But Ned's observations about Rhaegar on his way to the whorehouse to meet with the mother of Robert's bastard grow out of his musings on bastards and Robert in general.

So not only is he thinking (in the middle of warm rain that's coming down like 'blood' or 'old guilts') about his own sins (presumably, a bastard son) but there's even a memory of Lyanna, complaining that Robert "will never keep to one bed." Taken together, there's a parallel or comparison being set up between Robert and Rhaegar. There's some rather unspoken reasons as to why Ned's doing this comparison. . . another chance for the social experiment, no doubt :)

Why would Tywin include Kevan in something if it were to his advantage to keep it to himself? There's that old line about 'some wars are won with quills and ravens.' Or maybe. . . not responding when one receives a raven? The suggestion that someone may have tampered with the letter is a good one, too. Still, if something's being covered up, my money's on Tywin.

Reminds me.I did a piece on this chapter as part of Evita's reread project.Called it Blood and Rain.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79188-vol-2-agot-reread-direwolves-dragons-eggs-momonts-raven-and-cats-oh-my-pets-or-providence/page-7#entry4118428

I should have caught the Film Noir vibe that Alia later pointed out.Not sure if any of this helps,but anyway.

[Eira Seren]

Reminds me.I did a piece on this chapter as part of Evita's reread project.Called it Blood and Rain.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79188-vol-2-agot-reread-direwolves-dragons-eggs-momonts-raven-and-cats-oh-my-pets-or-providence/page-7#entry4118428

I should have caught the Film Noir vibe that Alia later pointed out.Not sure if any of this helps,but anyway.

Ned is certainly feeling 'beaten down' by all those 'relentless guilts' and old memories. Nice reading of that chapter, there's a lot more blood than I remember.