Phillip Frye Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 We're on the same page. I even suggest obsidian scale mail before, which would look kind of like a black dragon's scales :) I don't think that the idea of obsidian scale mail is ridiculous at all, whether related to Jon Snow's dream or not. I wonder if there is anyone out there in ASOIAF who could chip obsidian into scales for armor? I think that having fewer fingers than normal would be a plus for such delicate work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTowerOfJoy Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Instead, as with Nissa Nissa, someone valuable had to die to create a Valyrian steel blade. I imagine that the someone who died would have belonged to one of the Forty Families to create such a magnificent sword. This may also explain why no further Valyrian steel blades have been created. People have forgotten whose blood must be spilled, and no king has thought to sacrifice a member of his own family to create a sword. Agreed. This was always my own belief, there were some posts earlier about the slaves serving after death (ie being given the kiss of fire by the Valyrians, and forced into servitude even after death that was compelling). If true it could tie the Last Hero and his dragonsteel sword to Azor Ahai and his flaming one created by killing Nissa Nissa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Maybe Rhaegar got the prophecy wrong once more. It really meant the dragon needs three deaths and foreshadowed the Tower of Joy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 Lets say a suppossed Obsidian armor would keep a wws sword from stabbing or slashing,the impact of any blow to that armor would render that to splinters. A useful analogy here is ringmail [or scale armour for that matter] which by itself offers good protection from cuts by sharp edges but none from impact blows and only very limited protection from penetrating weapons. For that reason it was normally worn in combination with very solidly padded canvas coats or jackets such as aketons. This padding provided a good measure of protection against blows, and was worn over the mail to to protect it from arrows and other penetrating weapons. Even if it were possible to create an armour out of glass it too would itself have needed such such protection. And again that comes back to that dream so full of symbols. Jon saw himself armoured in ice not because he is destined to actually wear it but because that's where he's going, or rather perhaps because this is about Ice and Fire being one - hence the armour of Ice and the sword of Fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Morgan Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Maybe Rhaegar got the prophecy wrong once more. It really meant the dragon needs three deaths and foreshadowed the Tower of Joy.I don't think it was about 3 deaths but Martin said that prophecies can't be interpreted word for word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Theon Greyjoy "had to have two heads... elsewise men would have laughed at him." (ADWD, Chapter 46)Theon Greyjoy... 66.6% dragon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTowerOfJoy Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 A useful analogy here is ringmail [or scale armour for that matter] which by itself offers good protection from cuts by sharp edges but none from impact blows and only very limited protection from penetrating weapons. For that reason it was normally worn in combination with very solidly padded canvas coats or jackets such as aketons. This padding provided a good measure of protection against blows, and was worn over the mail to to protect it from arrows and other penetrating weapons. Even if it were possible to create an armour out of glass it too would itself have needed such such protection. And again that comes back to that dream so full of symbols. Jon saw himself armoured in ice not because he is destined to actually wear it but because that's where he's going, or rather perhaps because this is about Ice and Fire being one - hence the armour of Ice and the sword of Fire. And the Other's swords cut with sharp edges. They are not impact type weapons such as a war hammer, and I seriously doubt their swords would cause damage to anything made of obsidian. And I completely understand that his dream is full of symbols, but that doesn't mean we should limit the entire interpretation to purely figurative and symbolic. There certainly are plenty of instances of flaming swords both in legend and witnessed first hand in this series, so it's quite possible that the flaming sword has both symbolic and literal meaning, and if that's the case then so too could the armor. There could be multiple layers of meaning here, not just a single symbolic layer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Jon will be armored in actual ice. Bastard is at least mostly dead which implies somewhat undead which equals magic.Magical armor not metaphorical armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Again, for reference, here are the passages I was thinking of. There is another interesting comment made by Victarion Greyjoy, to the maester who treats his wounded hand, which I've added to the bottom. Also, I realize I named the wrong KG knight in my previous post - it was Mandon Moore, not Meryn Trant, who invited Tyrion to "take [his] hand." Jaime to Bran (AGOT, Chapter 8): Ser Mandon Moore, to Tyrion (ACOK, Chapter 61): Littlefinger to Lysa Arryn (ASOS, Chapter 80): Melisandre to Jon Snow (ADWD, Chapter 28): Victarion to Maester Kerwin (ADWD, Chapter 56): I've been thinking more and more about your excellent observation about one character offering to "take the hand" of another. Since it started with Jaime's infamous offer to Bran on the tower, it made me think of the roles that I think Jaime and Bran were playing out. In Norse mythology, the god of war Tyr, conspired with the other gods to try and chain the wolf, Fenrir in the underworld. All versions of the tale have Tyr offering to place his hand in the wolf's mouth as a token of goodwill. The wolf then allows himself to be chained convinced that he could break free because of the Tyr's assurance coupled with the fact that Tyr offers to place his hand in his mouth to show his sincerity. When Fenrir realizes he couldn't break free, he bites Tyr's hand off. Perhaps GRRM is referencing this story of betrayal with the passages you've cited when one character offers his or her hand to another. Perhaps Jon will end up taking Melisandre's "hand" only to be bound to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 And I completely understand that his dream is full of symbols, but that doesn't mean we should limit the entire interpretation to purely figurative and symbolic. There certainly are plenty of instances of flaming swords both in legend and witnessed first hand in this series, so it's quite possible that the flaming sword has both symbolic and literal meaning, and if that's the case then so too could the armor. There could be multiple layers of meaning here, not just a single symbolic layer. I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one because while there are a number of elements present, the dream is clearly a reflection of Jon's inner conflicts and the influences acting upon him. If he sees himself armoured in ice then that is because it is important that he sees himself armoured in ice, not because a vision of the future has suddenly intruded upon him. Armour made of obsidian has no precedent, would be hideously difficult to make and totally impractical to wear. There is no basis for it in the text and as I pointed out earlier Jon knows what obsidian is and looks like. If it had been obsidian in his dream he would have known it was obsidian and puzzled over its meaning. Instead he saw himself armoured in ice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 Perhaps GRRM is referencing this story of betrayal with the passages you've cited when one character offers his or her hand to another. Perhaps Jon will end up taking Melisandre's "hand" only to be bound to her. As to the first I think that to be a plausible interpretation. As to the second, thus far Jon has refused to take her hand and perhaps by so doing has made an important decision as to the direction he's headed.He has refused to accept the Lord of Light into his heart in favour of the Old Gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTowerOfJoy Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one because while there are a number of elements present, the dream is clearly a reflection of Jon's inner conflicts and the influences acting upon him. If he sees himself armoured in ice then that is because it is important that he sees himself armoured in ice, not because a vision of the future has suddenly intruded upon him. Armour made of obsidian has no precedent, would be hideously difficult to make and totally impractical to wear. There is no basis for it in the text and as I pointed out earlier Jon knows what obsidian is and looks like. If it had been obsidian in his dream he would have known it was obsidian and puzzled over its meaning. Instead he saw himself armoured in ice. Actually, he saw himself armored in black ice, which is something we have no precedence for at all. The closest substance we've seen in the books to "black ice" would in fact be obsidian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrafntýr Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I've been thinking more and more about your excellent observation about one character offering to "take the hand" of another. Since it started with Jaime's infamous offer to Bran on the tower, it made me think of the roles that I think Jaime and Bran were playing out. In Norse mythology, the god of war Tyr, conspired with the other gods to try and chain the wolf, Fenrir in the underworld. All versions of the tale have Tyr offering to place his hand in the wolf's mouth as a token of goodwill. The wolf then allows himself to be chained convinced that he could break free because of the Tyr's assurance coupled with the fact that Tyr offers to place his hand in his mouth to show his sincerity. When Fenrir realizes he couldn't break free, he bites Tyr's hand off. Perhaps GRRM is referencing this story of betrayal with the passages you've cited when one character offers his or her hand to another. Perhaps Jon will end up taking Melisandre's "hand" only to be bound to her. Though in the end, at Ragnarok, all bets are off, and Fenrir breaks free to savage Odin. Somewhat off topic, Tyr also has a role at Ragnarok: he is to fight Hel's hound Garmr, and the two to kill one another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 As to the first I think that to be a plausible interpretation. As to the second, thus far Jon has refused to take her hand and perhaps by so doing has made an important decision as to the direction he's headed.He has refused to accept the Lord of Light into his heart in favour of the Old Gods. Well in Jon's current condition he may not have a say in the matter. I still think Martin is going to give us two Jon's in the next book: Jon, warged in Ghost, the hilt of the broken sword, Jung's Anima/Animus self, the Oathkeeper and Jon resurected by Melisandre in flame, the blade of the broken sword, like sorcery the sword without the hilt, the pointy end, Jung's Shadow self, the Widow's Wail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Though in the end, at Ragnarok, all bets are off, and Fenrir breaks free to savage Odin. Somewhat off topic, Tyr also has a role at Ragnarok: he is to fight Hel's hound Garmr, and the two to kill one another. As for your first point, we seem to have the analog of the Fenrir wolf in Bran, sitting next to the analog for Odin in Bloodraven. As for your second point, Jaime vs Jon in a battle to the death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amoracchius Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Feather Crystal, on 29 Jul 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:The more R + L = J is discussed, the more my suspicions grow that Lyanna never left Winterfell at all and hid in the crypts the entire time just like the Bael story. Rhaegar was suspected, yes, but not only did it seem out of character, but he also didn't follow through with people's expectations of a man in love. Either he raped her or he loved her. Which explains leaving Lyanna to give birth alone? Neither explanations fit and so I don't think he kidnapped her at all. I think Mance played Bael and kept Lyanna in the crypts. Ned's fever dream was just that: a dream. :agree: Blank responses not withstanding, I still don't understand what you were getting at. The more you discuss R+L=J, the more convinced you become that Lyanna never left Winterfell at all and Mance was somehow involved? I'm sorry if my response came across as flip, but I was and am honestly confused by that statement. Could you please explain? I'm interested in hearing your theory. EDIT: Sorry about the formatting. I don't know what happened with the quote levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 Actually, he saw himself armored in black ice, which is something we have no precedence for at all. The closest substance we've seen in the books to "black ice" would in fact be obsidian. Armoured in black ice is not a problem if we place it on the same level as slaying Robb and Ygritte in the same dream and having flaming arrows shot at him. Its what Jon thinks he sees in that dream which is important, which is why on the one hand its important that he sees himself clad in ice and on the other perverse to try and look for an alternative explanation of what he saw in his dream. At which point, as I say we'll have to agree to disagree as we have no common ground :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrafntýr Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 As for your first point, we seem to have the analog of the Fenrir wolf in Bran, sitting next to the analog for Odin in Bloodraven. As for your second point, Jaime vs Jon in a battle to the death? First point: yes, that's just what I'm thinking. ETA: And suggests that Bran will turn on BR in the end. Second point: I've usually thought more in terms of Jaime v. a Clegane, something to do with Sansa. as per Bran's vision (the golden armour etc. one). But it's true that Garmr is maybe best thought of a "hell-hound," his name may be linguistically related to Cerberus (the point is debated in Indo-European linguistics), and is mentioned as near to Hel, sometimes said to be beneath one of the three roots of Yggdrasil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 First point: yes, that's just what I'm thinking. ETA: And suggests that Bran will turn on BR in the end. Which would again also be compatible with seeing Bran as Willard and Bloodraven as Kurz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 A useful analogy here is ringmail [or scale armour for that matter] which by itself offers good protection from cuts by sharp edges but none from impact blows and only very limited protection from penetrating weapons. For that reason it was normally worn in combination with very solidly padded canvas coats or jackets such as aketons. This padding provided a good measure of protection against blows, and was worn over the mail to to protect it from arrows and other penetrating weapons. Even if it were possible to create an armour out of glass it too would itself have needed such such protection. And again that comes back to that dream so full of symbols. Jon saw himself armoured in ice not because he is destined to actually wear it but because that's where he's going, or rather perhaps because this is about Ice and Fire being one - hence the armour of Ice and the sword of Fire. 100% :agree: And the Other's swords cut with sharp edges. They are not impact type weapons such as a war hammer, and I seriously doubt their swords would cause damage to anything made of obsidian. And I completely understand that his dream is full of symbols, but that doesn't mean we should limit the entire interpretation to purely figurative and symbolic. There certainly are plenty of instances of flaming swords both in legend and witnessed first hand in this series, so it's quite possible that the flaming sword has both symbolic and literal meaning, and if that's the case then so too could the armor. There could be multiple layers of meaning here, not just a single symbolic layer.TOJ are you forgetting what happen to Waymar's sword when it was exposed to the wws cold emittance. Over time it became brittle how do you think a glass armor will hold up. It also has nothing to do with it being an "impact weapon" like Robert's Warhammer.The force behind their slash is enough to turn glass armor exposed to the effects of their immediate cold to splinters.Also,friendly fire,he trips and falls against a tree,i mean big problems with this.If you say it magical then i have to shake my head even more Which leads to the biggest problem of all,this is the kind of thing GRRM dislikes because as he states its a "cheat" when all of a sudden the hero goes from being in a crappy situation to ah some magic sword,armor,potion or spell to get him out the situation. So now you want to encapsulate Jon in a magical armor equipped with a magical sword to match.....Nuh I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one because while there are a number of elements present, the dream is clearly a reflection of Jon's inner conflicts and the influences acting upon him. If he sees himself armoured in ice then that is because it is important that he sees himself armoured in ice, not because a vision of the future has suddenly intruded upon him. Armour made of obsidian has no precedent, would be hideously difficult to make and totally impractical to wear. There is no basis for it in the text and as I pointed out earlier Jon knows what obsidian is and looks like. If it had been obsidian in his dream he would have known it was obsidian and puzzled over its meaning. Instead he saw himself armoured in ice. True that Actually, he saw himself armored in black ice, which is something we have no precedence for at all. The closest substance we've seen in the books to "black ice" would in fact be obsidian. That's not true black ice is called thus because it reflects the surface its on.....Obsidian has various colors not all includes black....See the cache found by Ghost.Jon will be armored in actual ice. Bastard is at least mostly dead which implies somewhat undead which equals magic.Magical armor not metaphorical armor.This is a symbolic dream which i believe is twofold and it has to do with his nature being reflected/maginified by another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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