Family, Duty, Honor: The Catelyn Re-read Project

[BearQueen87]

We don't have Cat's POV and her thoughts in this are not so evident. Her state of extreme distress makes it even more difficult. Trying to follow Cat's stream of conscious and subconscious thoughts that lead her to express herself the way she does in this scene, both in speech and body language, will unavoidably employ a lot of speculation (and a good dose of armchair psychology from my part, so if any experts are reading this, feel free to be harsh if you spot scientifically nonsensical ideas :) )

This is something I meant to bring up as well. This is an instance of GRRM showing what a talented writer he is. We could have easily had this moment from Cat's POV so you get an internal sense of her distraught. But instead, he put it through Jon's eyes so that we, the readers, like Jon, are external intruders on something incredibly painful. We become an external force that can't breach Cat's own walls of grief to read her internal thoughts but her grief is so intense that in manifests around her in her appearance and speech.

[UVA]

.I feel there is a fight within her, the aknowledgment that she has been unfair and the guilt about it versus her accumulated bitterness born from feelings of hurt pride and insecurity. Jon's kindness, not really surprisingly, triggers the opposite feelings in Cat: She is fighting her own sense of guilt; she feels that all those years she has been wronged too; and therefore, that the gods are cruel and unfair to punish her this way. Thus the rejection of his "absolution", and the "it sould have been you" could perhaps be understood in this sense. When she actually says it loud, guilt takes over again and she breaks to tears...

Great posts everyone! I'm really compelled by ShadowCat's and Julia H's ideas about Cat's feelings of isolation in her suffering all these years and how this scene is perhaps the only instance Cat has ever "let Jon in." In a way, though I wonder if her suffering in relation to the Jon situation over the years also has made her feel vindicated in her anger and frustration, made her feel somehow righteous in her pain -- she was wronged by her husband, and as far as her family is concerned, has done everything "right" as a wife and mother. Her rejection of Jon's absolution could be seen as her internally trying to reaffirm her sense of righteousness -- the "waking up" moment Julia describes.

Also, thanks ShadowCat for bringing in the parallel scene in the PatQ. I thought of Cat's "it should have been you" comment when I read the PatQ, but didn't make the connection again here. It's interesting that Martin uses the same phrase in a very similar context.

The answer she gets to her prayers is tragic and cruel. Now Bran must stay in Winterfell while Jon is going away, as she wished, but she could not be unhappier. I'm not saying that in her grief and bitterness she does not want to hurt Jon at this moment. But, among other things, perhaps she also realizes that, after all, it should have been as Ned wanted. If that is the price to pay, then Bran should have gone to KL with Ned, and Jon Snow (who has made his own decision to go away) should have stayed in Winterfell. Her wish being "granted" in such a cruel way is the most horrible punishment she can get for her disobedience.

This is a tremendous insight, not only the cruel irony for Cat but looking at the chapter's outcome as some kind of punishment for internal disobedience of Ned.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

a few observations on this chapter.

Cat may very well be suffering from a bit of religious "whiplash" here, for want of a better term. She has stayed faithful to the Seven during her entire stay in Winterfell. She is surrounded by Old God worshipers, and yet she sticks to the faith she was raised with. And now, when she needs them the most, they went and did this to her. How's that for a reward.

Jon is remarkably understanding in this scene. He never has any flashbacks to Cat's words to him. They really don't hurt him in the long run. And he tells Robb an "honorable lie" when he says Cat was "... very kind." Still, it took quite a bit of effort for Jon to work up his courage to face the dreaded Lady Stark. After that encounter, when he saw how vulnerable she was, i don't think she was so dreaded any more.

Again, this is a chapter where I don't judge Cat harshly. I will later, when I think she deserves it. But not now.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

In a way, though I wonder if her suffering in relation to the Jon situation over the years also has made her feel vindicated in her anger and frustration, made her feel somehow righteous in her pain -- she was wronged by her husband, and as far as her family is concerned, has done everything "right" as a wife and mother.

Cat may very well be suffering from a bit of religious "whiplash" here, for want of a better term. She has stayed faithful to the Seven during her entire stay in Winterfell. She is surrounded by Old God worshipers, and yet she sticks to the faith she was raised with. And now, when she needs them the most, they went and did this to her. How's that for a reward.

Time for Cat to get herself a "red hawk"? :)

Seriously though, we'll see her appreciating more and more the power of the Old Gods in regards to protecting her children as the story follows. Maybe this is the instance that facilitates the events in the next chapter to become a turning point.

[Lyanna Stark]

a few observations on this chapter.

Cat may very well be suffering from a bit of religious "whiplash" here, for want of a better term. She has stayed faithful to the Seven during her entire stay in Winterfell. She is surrounded by Old God worshipers, and yet she sticks to the faith she was raised with. And now, when she needs them the most, they went and did this to her. How's that for a reward.

This is a good point. We learn from Cat's introduction that she is linked to religion and the Seven, but here she is distraught and angry at her Gods. They were nowhere for her and Bran. For the future, I wonder if this is perhaps the starting point of Cat becoming more "northern" in that she is unconsciously becoming more "Winter is coming" than she even realises herself.

Jon is remarkably understanding in this scene. He never has any flashbacks to Cat's words to him. They really don't hurt him in the long run. And he tells Robb an "honorable lie" when he says Cat was "... very kind." Still, it took quite a bit of effort for Jon to work up his courage to face the dreaded Lady Stark. After that encounter, when he saw how vulnerable she was, i don't think she was so dreaded any more.

Again, this is a chapter where I don't judge Cat harshly. I will later, when I think she deserves it. But not now.

One thing to perhaps remember is that to Jon, Cat has probably seemed like the perfect composed lady before, yet here she is, broken and vulnerable. Jon is far more together here than Cat and he knows that. So the Dreaded Lady Cat actually turns into a human in front of Jon. Perhaps not a very nice and friendly human, but she's definitely not some distant ivory figure anymore. In a way, this makes it easier for Jon, I think, to lie to Robb. Jon realised that Cat was hurt, broken and vulnerable despite her scathing words. Had she been cold, composed and distant then the situation would probably have been more difficult for Jon.

[UVA]

Time for Cat to get herself a "red hawk".

Oh dear, I don't get the reference SC.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Oh dear, I don't get the reference SC.

Oh, I meant turn to gods that may answer her prayers in a favorable way...

It's a reference to Davos I, ACOK:

“When I was a lad I found an injured goshawk and nursed her back to health. Proudwing, I named her. She would perch on my shoulder and flutter from room to room after me and take food from my hand, but she would not soar. Time and again I would take her hawking, but she never flew higher than the treetops. Robert called her Weakwing. He owned a gyrfalcon named Thunderclap who never missed her strike. One day our great-uncle Ser Harbert told me to try a different bird. I was making a fool of myself with Proudwing, he said, and he was right.” Stannis Baratheon turned away from the window, and the ghosts who moved upon the southern sea.

“The Seven have never brought me so much as a sparrow. It is time I tried another hawk, Davos. A red hawk.”

[Mladen]

Wonderful chapter analysis and great insights from both of you. I will touch on something Lyanna quickly talked about and generally something that also refers to Jon.

As someone who has witnessed people's pain, angst and despair quite numerous times, I have come to conclusion that no reaction is beyond imagination. People deal with pain and loss in their own very unique way (frankly, it's quite Tolstoy-wise thinking, only he spoke about families). But, and I have been in that role again many times, the one who intrudes that shell of pain has to be prepared for anything. And I have seen anything. From empty looks, gratitude and hugs to screams, curses and punches. Entire spectrum of human reactions on something emotionally investing. Being intruder isn't either easy or simple and it brings a lot of baggage into already messed up situation. That being said, this entire chapter needs to be seen through both eyes - the intruding force embodied in Jon (not intruding in any negative way, just getting involved in something difficult) and the one who is emulating all the pain.

We discussed the baggage Catelyn has with Jon, and I have talked already about Jon's baggage. In circumstance like this, these emotional baggages which are so nicely put under the rug for years: Catelyn always maintained decorum and Jon never allowed that his status hurt him that much. But stripped of all inhibitions, stripped of basic reasoning, collision becomes inevitable.

The question many tried to answer "who is at fault here?" basically is in contrition with the scene itself. Catelyn undoubtedly did something cruel, something that isn't in line with years of keeping the distance and drawing clear lines. Jon's intrusion isn't something we can even think to reproach, but it certainly gives us another look at Catelyn's pain. And in a thin line that connects basic human behavior and childish naive acts of love, we got the nasty scene that hurt someone completely innocent.

Again, great points, people (almost said ladies :))

[BastardlyRock]

I think it's important too to remember that Jon had no intention of conflicting with Lady Stark, and had an opportunity to visit Bran before he left with her not present arisen, he would surely have taken it. Knowing she would not leave that room, and knowing if he wanted to say goodbye to Bran he would have to face her, he willingly put himself in her sights. A grieving mother will fire at anything, and I feel from his actions afterward that Jon knew that to an extent.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm speaking a bit in Cat's favour with some personal experience.

When my parents got married, back in the 70s, my mother knew my dad had a son. Also, that there was another one about to be born (my sister). As their mother didn't have enough money, they lived with them for many years (I was born just in 1982) and when they were with their mother, my mom took care of them. She said, and she was right, nothing of the situation was their fault, so she loved them as her own while I wasn't yet around. Of course, my father, didn't "keep it to one bed" and after I was born, he kept having other children. I only knew two of them in very difficult circumstances, when he got very sick and my mother was fed up of him. She didn't want to know anything about his "other children", because she felt humiliated in front of his family. She didn't even attend his funeral because she couldn't (nor wanted) to face "the other women and children" (aaaand... more other problems that whatever, not relevant). Of course, my father's family felt insulted by this, because she was his wife.

When it comes to the relationship between Cat and Jon, there is no right or wrong here. Cat has no obligation to Jon, we know that, and while she has been cold towards Jon, she hasn't actually "mistreat" him. Yea, some could say "she psychologically tortured him!" but that's saying too much. It's pretty much the same people saying that Arya suffered in Winterfell because Sansa and Jeyne called her "horseface". So, I'm quoting myself because I'm lazy to write it all over again:

The thing with series of books is that authors change their minds about events that happened in the first volumes. It's normal when the books evolves.

In GoT, it does looks like it's normal that bastards are raised somewhere else, even though their parents take care of them and their education and Cat is kinda expecting Jon should be fostered somewhere else. Yet, in later books, we've seen bastards being raised along with the others legitimate children. I can see why Cat is perceived by many as a bitch.

OTOH, we have Jon, a popular loved character who has felt Cat's "coldness" towards him without deserving it. And we also think that she's unfair to him (she is) because we know Jon loves his brothers and sisters and he would never wish them harm. So, which side do we take? Jon or Cat? Mostly would take the "kid"'s side, and it's understandable. That doesn't make Cat a bad person, either.

Also, Jon's problems aren't only caused by Cat not being a caring parent to him, there are many things surrounding Jon that made him feel an outcast when he was growing up in Winterfell.

[Lyanna Stark]

Catelyn III - Direwolves and Daggers in the Dark

Timeframe: 8 days have gone by since Ned left Winterfell with the King's entourage, taking Sansa and Arya south.

Plot summary:

This chapter starts with us meeting Cat still very distraught. If anything, her state has deteriorated further since Jon's meeting with her and reaches somewhat of a crisis point when she is confronted with Maester Luwing and Robb. The fire in the library tower seems to break her out of her stupor somewhat, which is lucky since very shortly afterwards she is attacked by an unknown man.

He tries to slit her throat, but she struggles with him and then Summer comes to her aid.

Cat is taken care of and when she wakes up, she is her normal, practical self. She is able to quickly figure out why someone would target Bran and she also has a theory on what happened and who did it. Both of which are correct, by the way. Cat is no slouch in the mental department.

She then deduces that someone needs to go to Kings Landing to find the truth and decides that out of Robb, Theon Greyjoy, Maester Luwin, herself and Ser Rodrick, she is the better choice. The chapter ends with Cat making plans to travel south along the White Knife to White Harbor only in the company of Ser Rodrick.

Analysis:

- Practical Cat is temporarily displaced by distraught Cat.

The fear of her son's death is strong enough to override her normally so practical, thinking, planning side. This is also "proof" that she's not "dumb" like some people claim: in this chapter when she is temporarily disabled, and then when her mental faculties are back, it's crystal clear that Cat is a shrewd thinker. She may reach the wrong conclusion based on faulty or limited information, but she does well with what she has. At the end of the chapter, she manages to outthink both Maester Luwin, Robb and Ser Rodrick without much trouble.

- Ominous threats and Daggers in the Dark

The atmosphere in this chapter is full of darkness, fire, blood and hidden plots. Even if Cat figures out that Jaime Lannister is most likely behind Bran falling, there is doubt if they can ever make it stick to him. There's also the sense of dread and/or impending doom with regards to Cat's trip to King's Landing. Even if she seems to think it rational and reasonable, for the reader there's definitely a "danger Will Robinson" sign flashing over it.

-Catelyn the northern Tully?

In my quest to find when Cat "becomes more northern", in this chapter she accepts the Direwolves, and seems accepted in turn. Her initial presentation was as a southron lady and here she prays to the Seven as well. But she ends up saved and accpted/accepting of the Old Gods in the form of a direwolf. There's even some nice symbolism with the spilt blood and how Summer accepts it off her hands.

At first, she is distressed by the wolves howling and cries to Robb "Make it stop" and even says to Robb to "kill them all" to make it stop.

But then when Summer has ripped out the attacker's throat, she thinks:

"His blood felt like warm rain as it sprayed across her face"

which for the bloody and violent event it is still signals relief and something welcomed. She realises that the wolf is Bran's and the wolf licks the blood off her fingers.

This is Cat's crisis point/turning point in a way, and afterwards she thinks it's like a dream. She feels weak but her spirit is healed. She is herself again.

She also thinks that she's let everyone down and that she needs to show these northerners how strong a Tully of Riverrun could be. Interestingly, part of that seems to have come through embracing and accepting her more wolfish side. So showing how strong a Tully can be is something she is able to do through nearing herself to the magic of the North through Summer, and being accepted by the direwolf in turn.

We also have Cat repeating the very northern "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell". Southerners don't seem to "get" this at all, but we see this line repeated often enough, and here it's from Cat who takes the northern attitude.

-Who knows the truth about Bran?

The people who know the truth about Bran's fall at this point are Cersei and Jaime obviously, but Tyrion figured out what went down earlier and Cat also ends up with a theory extremely close to the truth here, although she's missing the piece where Cersei is sleeping with her brother. Cat divulges her theory to Maester Luwin, Theon, Ser Rodrick and Robb. At this point, it seems Littlefinger does not know the particulars of Bran's fall, nor of his assassination, so let's keep this in mind for when we examine future chapters and judge his actions.

Other bits and pieces:

- More mentions of how the Lannisters cannot be trusted and how there is no end to their ambition. (The previous Ned chapter discussed how Jaime Lannister would get both the Warden of the East as well as the Warden of the West position.)

- Theon Greyjoy swearing an oath to Catelyn, talking about how his family owes the Starks.

- Hallis Mollen, who will later somewhat frustrate Cat, is made Captain of the Guard

- Cat reflects that previously she has only seen Robb as taking after her in looks, but that now she can see Ned in him. Winter is coming and people need to behave more Starkish?

- The dagger is Valyrian steel with Dragonbone and is the item that will later lead Littlefinger to pin the blame on Tyrion, in an act meant to intice hatred and outright warfare between the Lannisters and the Starks.

[Lyanna Stark]

The thing with series of books is that authors change their minds about events that happened in the first volumes. It's normal when the books evolves.

In GoT, it does looks like it's normal that bastards are raised somewhere else, even though their parents take care of them and their education and Cat is kinda expecting Jon should be fostered somewhere else. Yet, in later books, we've seen bastards being raised along with the others legitimate children. I can see why Cat is perceived by many as a bitch.

Absolutely not. This is completely wrong. The bastards who live with their lordly fathers in front of the lord's current wife is one: Lord Walder Frey (and possibly the rest of the Frey household). Walder Frey is not well regarded. If you think this wrong, I challenge you to bring up bastards brought up alongside legitimate children with the legitimate's children's lady mother still in place. Like last time, outside the Frey household you will find none.

Apart from that, we did a survey a couple of years ago and could find no bastard who were brought up in the same household as the lord's current wife. Not even in Dorne and Dorne is still very openminded compared to the rest of Westeros. That makes Cat's situation totally unique. Something Cersei also comments on later, that Cat must be a mouse to accept such an arrangement, which is a gruesome slight not just upon Cat herself, but upon the Tully House, too.

This is a general comment by the way, but as we have moved on from the Jon/Cat scene, it would be a good idea for this thread if we also moved on from that discussion and looked to the current and future Cat chapters. We know have Cat out of Winterfell and at the beginnings of the travels that will take her through Kings Landing to the Eyrie and then back to Robb, to Riverrun and finally to her death at the Twins and her resurrection in the Riverlands as Lady Stoneheart.

Cat's import for the overall Westeros political situation takes off in Cat III and helps trigger a development where above all Littlefinger starts to move his "pieces".

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Good job Lyanna :thumbsup:

There are many aspects to analyse in this chapter, but first I want to focus on an issue that puzzles me: why is the Stark's "inner circle" is so confined (and inadequate, in hindsight) ?

As we know, a noble House is both a family and a political unit. The Starks are presented to operate almost exclusively as a family, and the closest thing we get to the nuclear family we are used to. The political function seems to have been neglected, and here it starts to become sorely obvious.

Having the advantage of hindsight, we know that Cat's plan to go to KL incognito could never have worked. The best way to go about it would be to send a trusted person in plain sight, with a believable reason to go there (e.g. some business deal) as a guise. But they have no idea about how the game is played in KL and what it entails... all they know is that it's "a nest of adders", but nothing about how said addres hide and attack.

From a meta perspective the reason is plain: the Starks are set to fall hard and spectacularly. It couldn't be done if they were somewhat cognizant. What I am interested at is the in-story explanation.

So, the Starks do not have any close relatives to take up some of the counselor / executive roles that we later see in other families, for well documented reasons. However, such roles could have been given to trustworthy non-relatives (for examble, we later see Doran having something of a small council to attend matters in Sunspear, and we also see him trust members of other families with his most secretive plan). As a result, Catelyn has to go herself, as there is no one else who do the job.

What's more, the lack of information about KL seems inexcusable. They should have eyes and ears at court, not in order to play the game but because whatever happens there would necessarily affect them, being part of the realm and all. If they had such info they would know that Cat's presence could never go unnoticed...

I think that part of the reasons has it roots in the events that led to Robert's rebellion. Ned has lost family to politics and wants to have nothing to do with it, to isolate himself and his family from the "game". If we consider true -at least to some extent- the rumors about Rickard's "southron ambitions", this explanation seems more plausible. Yet, I think it's a sort of delusion from Ned's part, like Sansa's advice to Bran that if you hide under the blanket the monsters won't see you...

Another reason would be his trust to Robert and Jon Aryn. But this presupposes that everything goes smoothly, that they can always handle matters the best way, and ignores the fact that Lannisters (whom Ned distrusts long before the series' start) gain more and more ground...

All in all, I think that Ned has operated a lot based on wishful thinking and optimism about nothing ever going wrong. Cat, as her husband's councelor, shares a small part of the responsibility but it's mostly on Ned. And I think that in a symbolic way, the Starks were punished for not abiding to their House words; they were acting like summer would last forever. The metaphorical winter found them totally unprepared.

[BearQueen87]

Catelyn III - Direwolves and Daggers in the Dark

Really nice job Lyanna Stark!

- Practical Cat is temporarily displaced by distraught Cat.

The fear of her son's death is strong enough to override her normally so practical, thinking, planning side. This is also "proof" that she's not "dumb" like some people claim: in this chapter when she is temporarily disabled, and then when her mental faculties are back, it's crystal clear that Cat is a shrewd thinker. She may reach the wrong conclusion based on faulty or limited information, but she does well with what she has. At the end of the chapter, she manages to outthink both Maester Luwin, Robb and Ser Rodrick without much trouble.

Not only does Cat out think many of the men folk at the end of the chapter, but it's clear from the beginning that Luwin considers Cat to be the head of household. He goes to her to do the books and make appts, even though Rob is "lord" while his father is away. Cat's obviously been running WF for a long time and is trusted to know how to handle various affairs. But Cat's emotional distress is so greivous that she has ceased being Lady Stark and simply Cat the mother of Bran. When Robb tells her of the fire in the library, she thanks the gods--not because she wants WF to burn or anything--but because it's far away from Bran that it won't hurt him. Cat's whole world right now is Bran's sickroom and the only role she can play right now is of mother. This makes me think of Bran's first POV where he sees that Ned has taken off his "father" face and donned "Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell. There are so many facets to each of these characters.

This chapter also sets up one of Cat's most important relationships in the series: her son Robb. Robb is only fourteen and he needs his mother to help him be the Lord of Winterfell. When Robb comes to Bran's room, Cat does recognize that Robb is struggling "but Bran was still holding her hand and she could not move." I think the idea here is Cat is frozen. Cat's stuck in this room and in her grief. It's like she literally cannot move because at any moment the very worst can happen. What breaks her "frozen" nature is a hot fire, blood that feels like warm rain, a direwolf named Summer, and even a scalding hot bath. Having been "warmed back up" (so to speak) Cat realizes that she needs to act and that she has other children who need her just as much as Bran.

- Cat reflects that previously she has only seen Robb as taking after her in looks, but that now she can see Ned in him. Winter is coming and people need to behave more Starkish?

Cat, logically, knows that Robb is the heir to WF and Ned's son, but I wonder if she's seen Robb as being her heir as well--a proper southron lord. But now she is seeing Robb as a northman for the first time, and she in turn embraces the Stark aspects she's inherited since coming to WF. I think this is also some nice foreshadowing of Cat's final POV in aGoT, not to jump too far ahead.

[Mladen]

Ah, female character meets wolf behavioral pattern... It's like Halloween, Christmas and New Year all wrapped up in one for me :)

So, first, Lyanna, wonderful analysis for wonderful chapter. As always, it has been privilege to read your thoughts on ASOIAF and its characters.

I have said this already and I will repeat it again. Catelyn wonderfully embodies the union of the two worlds - North and South, Tully and Stark... In amny aspects, Catelyn truly represents the union of the opposites, and one of the chapters that truly shows that is certainly this one. From grieving mother to fierce defender of her child, Catelyn shows why I see her as "Capitoline she-wolf" of ASOIAF.

The scene where Catelyn defends Bran from assassin is showing the other side of Catelyn, or actually another layer. She wasn't just the mother and wife, or the wicked stepmother, she was a fierce woman who has gone to extreme to protect her child. Catelyn showed, time after time, what she is capable of doing when it comes to her children. And that is how we have to look at her and her Northern identity. For "Family, duty, honor" are not just some words. They are basically what Catelyn believes in. And for her, her family comes first, and in that we find her Northern identity, her wolf traits. As we have discussed, the South and North in Cat are not static, and I believe that Cat has been both from the very first as she will be both with her last words. In the wonderful sublimation, we have that Cat emulates her wolf trait through her Southern philosophy that family comes first. And Catelyn's greatest she-wolf moments are always related to that sentiment. This scene wonderfully parallels Catelyn's last chapter with taste of blood, gathered strength and sons she tried to defend.

Although this chapter offers us so much in terms of analysis, and Lyanna and ShadowCat Rivers pointed various aspects of it, but for me this she-wolf moment is so telling and so beautiful, only comparable to Sansa's "not a kneeler" moment at her wedding...

[aje12]

Nice Analyses of a great chapter!

Some Thoughts

• At the beggining of this chapter Catelyn is in a horrible, horrible place. She is completely driven to obsession with Bran, the dark side of a mother's grief displayed through her neglecting of her duties and other children. Poor Rickon has to deal with everyone leaving him at the tender age of three, only to have his mother's attention consumed by Bran when he is at his most vulnerable. When Luwin is discussing the accounts with her, she is contemplating something as insignificant as Bran's hair length. She seems to be experiencing some kind of manic depressive state, obviously caused by Bran's coma but excuberated by her lack of sleep and the stress of her husband leaving her. Her mood swings from vacant, to 'as sharp as a whip', in seconds, and when we see her snap at a man she relies on and respects and her own son, it makes it more understandable that she would say such a thing to Jon Snow.
  
• It almost seemed a bit cruel on re-reading that Ned left Catelyn in such a state. Surely Ned could have persuaded Robert that the Winterfell people could stay behind until he was sure his son was alive.
  
• This is the first chapter when we truly get a sense of Catelyn's ferocity, as others have termed it, her inner she-wolf. This is no meek southron lady. Catelyn would butcher every horse with her own hands if it meant her child's safety. She is so fiercely family oriented that she will go to extreme means to protect them. Despite barely sleeping for weeks, and just moments before sobbing desperately that her sweet son was gone, she whips into wolf mode and the fact that she could fight of valyrian steel is testimony to her strength. She literally bites like him like a wolf and tears at his flesh. Catelyn/Arya parallels are apparent in this aspect of their personalities.
  
• Robb puts up a brave face and handles Luwin's concerns with real maturity. But we see behind the facade; he truly is a boy who suddenly has all these responsibilities thrust upon him. His father has left him and his mother is inconsolable, but he breaks down almost tearfully telling her he can't do this alone. (Cute note that lip biting seems to be a family trait Arya picked up from Robb). Catelyn wants to comfort him but she is completely consumed in grief by Bran. Again we see how young Robb seems (particularly in comparison to KITN times) when he takes out his sword and Rodrik chastises him for being a foolish boy. He is technically a lord, but the people who care for him are under no pretence that he is not just a boy. Then when Catelyn says she will go to KL he is sweetly confused and Catelyn feels sorry for him.
  
• Again whoever made a point about Winterfell not feeling so much as a political unit as it should, this is supported by Old Nan being the one to bathe Catelyn instead of an army of maids. It seems like the Starks have genuine connections with their 'staff' that almost feel like replacement family members. Ned's men are like uncles to the children, Old Nan their grandmother, Luwin a grandfather, e.c.t. and this feeling is definately not given by the other great houses that are far less familial.
  
• The red wedding parrallels have got to be intentional! Catelyn trying to save her son, a blade to the throat, her hair is grabbed at both times, and resulting hysteria. Difference is Cateyn is fighting for her life, instead of willing it to end.
  
• After the attack, Catelyn takes a complete 180 degree turn, as though the valyrian steel completely cut through her hysteric depression. She immediately gets up and is back to her old practical, quick witted, no nonsense (sharp at times) self, immediately seeing to bandage changes and a meal, which even surprised her servants. She literally immediately figures out exactly what happened with Bran's fall despite her state the past few weeks. I love the way she tries to guide Robb into figureing out things himself, a truly effective parenting style here (take note Cersei).
  
• Tinfoil hats on people: read a theory once that Catelyn had been posessed in some way through the old gods during this period. That she had been given a role to protect bran at all costs (as he is the chosen one and all) as they anticipated the danger of the dagger. This might explain the complete turnaround she had after the danger had passed, and why hodor was acting 'strange'. Yeah its pretty bullshit sounding but heh thought i should bring it up anyway haha.
  

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Nice Analyses of a great chapter!

Some Thoughts

• At the beggining of this chapter Catelyn is in a horrible, horrible place. She is completely driven to obsession with Bran, the dark side of a mother's grief displayed through her neglecting of her duties and other children. Poor Rickon has to deal with everyone leaving him at the tender age of three, only to have his mother's attention consumed by Bran when he is at his most vulnerable. When Luwin is discussing the accounts with her, she is contemplating something as insignificant as Bran's hair length. She seems to be experiencing some kind of manic depressive state, obviously caused by Bran's coma but excuberated by her lack of sleep and the stress of her husband leaving her. Her mood swings from vacant, to 'as sharp as a whip', in seconds, and when we see her snap at a man she relies on and respects and her own son, it makes it more understandable that she would say such a thing to Jon Snow.

It almost seemed a bit cruel on re-reading that Ned left Catelyn in such a state. Surely Ned could have persuaded Robert that the Winterfell people could stay behind until he was sure his son was alive.

This is the first chapter when we truly get a sense of Catelyn's ferocity, as others have termed it, her inner she-wolf. This is no meek southron lady. Catelyn would butcher every horse with her own hands if it meant her child's safety. She is so fiercely family oriented that she will go to extreme means to protect them. Despite barely sleeping for weeks, and just moments before sobbing desperately that her sweet son was gone, she whips into wolf mode and the fact that she could fight of valyrian steel is testimony to her strength. She literally bites like him like a wolf and tears at his flesh. Catelyn/Arya parallels are apparent in this aspect of their personalities.

Robb puts up a brave face and handles Luwin's concerns with real maturity. But we see behind the facade; he truly is a boy who suddenly has all these responsibilities thrust upon him. His father has left him and his mother is inconsolable, but he breaks down almost tearfully telling her he can't do this alone. (Cute note that lip biting seems to be a family trait Arya picked up from Robb). Catelyn wants to comfort him but she is completely consumed in grief by Bran. Again we see how young Robb seems (particularly in comparison to KITN times) when he takes out his sword and Rodrik chastises him for being a foolish boy. He is technically a lord, but the people who care for him are under no pretence that he is not just a boy. Then when Catelyn says she will go to KL he is sweetly confused and Catelyn feels sorry for him.

Again whoever made a point about Winterfell not feeling so much as a political unit as it should, this is supported by Old Nan being the one to bathe Catelyn instead of an army of maids. It seems like the Starks have genuine connections with their 'staff' that almost feel like replacement family members. Ned's men are like uncles to the children, Old Nan their grandmother, Luwin a grandfather, e.c.t. and this feeling is definately not given by the other great houses that are far less familial.

The red wedding parrallels have got to be intentional! Catelyn trying to save her son, a blade to the throat, her hair is grabbed at both times, and resulting hysteria. Difference is Cateyn is fighting for her life, instead of willing it to end.

After the attack, Catelyn takes a complete 180 degree turn, as though the valyrian steel completely cut through her hysteric depression. She immediately gets up and is back to her old practical, quick witted, no nonsense (sharp at times) self, immediately seeing to bandage changes and a meal, which even surprised her servants. She literally immediately figures out exactly what happened with Bran's fall despite her state the past few weeks. I love the way she tries to guide Robb into figureing out things himself, a truly effective parenting style here (take note Cersei).

Tinfoil hats on people: read a theory once that Catelyn had been posessed in some way through the old gods during this period. That she had been given a role to protect bran at all costs (as he is the chosen one and all) as they anticipated the danger of the dagger. This might explain the complete turnaround she had after the danger had passed, and why hodor was acting 'strange'. Yeah its pretty bullshit sounding but heh thought i should bring it up anyway haha.

Great stuff!

I was thinking about this passage:

She had begged Ned not to go, not now, not after what had happened; everything had changed now, couldn’t he see that? It was no use. He had no choice, he had told her, and then he left, choosing.

Besides the fact that Bran's accident and Catelyn's collapse could indeed be used as an acceptable excuse for Ned to reject Robert's offer, I think that all the reasons that Cat had argued about to convince Ned to accept, still stand. Ned is being reasonable here, albeit somewhat inconsiderate to Cat's feelings, to hold on to the decision she had influenced him to take. However, the second clause is perhaps telling of a resentment that her husband, the husband, is the one who has all the choice in all matters and all she can do is live with that.

I particularly liked the Red Wedding parallel to the fighting scene. I had never thought of that!

This was the crucial event to inaugurate her journey that closed with the RW, coming to full circle. Unfortunatelly, no wolf could come to the rescue there but then, a wolf did call her back... It's something to keep into consideration for when we get there.

The bit about Old Nan taking care of her is a nice catch too. After a spell of depression and relative failure to her duties, Catelyn has to become the daughter first in order to reemerge as Lady - political being and Mother - mentor.

[DrunkSister]

I think there is a bastard girl mentioned in a Victarion chapter where he has the conversation with Euron and is ordered to go fetch Dany. She is IIRC raised with lords other children, but not as an equal, but as a servant.

And exception that proves the rule. And she is very pissed off indeed.

[LordStoneheart]

Hey all! Sorry I've been a little absent. Just recently started classes again and getting into the swing of things. Love the work that's been going on in the meantime.

Catelyn III - Direwolves and Daggers in the Dark

Excellent work, Lya!

I'd just like for one second to recall Jon II as I said before. This chapter we get inside her head unlike before and it's so clear that she is not herself, if it wasn't already clear enough for some. But we're past that stuff so it shall rest...

I do agree that this is the point where the Stark in Catelyn begins to come to the forefront. In the past two chapters we've seen her be a supportive and loving wife, a shrewd and fast thinker, a religious southern woman uncomfortable in the north, and a very concerned mother, whether for Sansa's future, Arya's behavior (I think I'll do a small write up about this soon), and Bran's health. From this moment onward she seems to become a much more proactive, strong, hardy, dare I say adventurous? presence. As soon as she's realized how the past weeks have been for her, she's determined to be strong in front of her northern family as a Tully, yet the northern influence has definitely taken a hold. I once read a forum member's comments about how he loved aGoT Cat because she was active and "didn't take no shit from anyone!" This is the beginning of that. This is when we see the She-Wolf of Winterfell on the prowl for the first time.

Once again, great work. :)

[ShadowCat Rivers]

As Eddard IV is a direct continuation of Catelyn IV subplot, Lord Stoneheart and I agreed to merge the analysis of the two chapters together in order to facilitate the discussion.

Catelyn IV & Eddard IV

of pawns and players

Overview

Catelyn IV takes off at the end of a generally uneventful sea travel to Kings Landing with the exception of a few storms that cost Ser Rodrik’s whiskers. They discuss the specifics of their mission and decide that Catelyn will stay at the inn that captain Moreo had suggested, while Ser Rodrik will contact the Red Keep’s master-at-arms incognito.

Catelyn soon realizes that their efforts for secrecy were in vain, as she is summoned to the Red Keep at Littlefinger’s request. After a brief tête-à-tête, Varys joins them and directly asks to see the dagger. Littlefinger then comes up with what later is proven to be a blatant lie, telling her that he used to be the owner but lost it to Tyrion Lannister over a bet.

Fast forward to Eddard IV:
As soon as he arrives in the capital, Ned has to attend a meeting of the Small Council. At the end of a very long and tiring day, Littlefinger takes him to a brothel where Catelyn has been hiding waiting for his arrival. She informs him of the assassination attempt against Bran and the results of her small investigation. Littlefinger warns them about the dangers of accusing the queen and promises to help Ned for Cat’s sake. Before they part again, Ned advises Catelyn to prepare for war.


Observations & points of discussion

• Cat is now in full operational mode; she endures the difficulties of the travel, she endures the pain, she is on alert and she is “past delicacies”.
• Kings Landing and Braavos: Our first introduction to the cities is given with a view from the sea by Catelyn and Arya respectively.
• Introduction to the two “master players”: Varys’ quasi-omniscient reputation is set up here for the first time and Littlefinger has a dangerous aura around him; he is really good at playing with knives after all…
• The curious narrative disappearance of Aron Santagar from this subplot: Did ever tell anything important to Ser Rodrik about the dagger?
• It seems that Ned has a touch of the wolfsblood too, at least when Catelyn’s honor is being insulted.

Analysis

Barring the intervals of Bran III and Jon III, Catelyn IV is placed between two Eddard chapters. A common theme of all three chapters is the dipole of trust / distrust and failed trust.

Catelyn distrusts the Tyroshi captain on the issue of the oarsmen’s silver but slips into telling him they are not staying at the Red Keep and trusts him to recommend them a place to stay; in the end, the notorious Tyroshi avarice costs them their anonymity.

Cat’s relationship with Littlefinger parallels Ned’s with Robert. Both pairs were raised as close as siblings but now after so many years the question of what kind of men they have become is quite disquieting.

Both Ned and Cat are in doubt of their old friends’ trustworthiness with good reason: Regarding Robert, the Trident incident was (should have been) an eye-opener, and as for Littlefinger he is presented as sly, mischievous, gifted at playing contrite when he gets caught and money-loving even as a child: clearly, a person to distrust.

However, both are fooled into trusting them. Ned because of his feelings for Robert and Cat because of Littlefinger’s feelings for her; indeed, his scar by Brandon’s sword could count as a token of true feelings. That along with the practical “help” that he offers to her are, at face value, quite convincing evidence to gain some of Cat’s (and Ned’s) grudging trust.

But if Robert and Littlefinger are of dubious reliability, the Lannisters are now definitely and unequivocally placed as the Enemy. Catelyn IV and subsequently Eddard IV solidify the suspicions into certainties. The war is all but declared.


More pending questions…

In the presentation of Catelyn III, Lyanna Stark noted:

At this point, it seems Littlefinger does not know the particulars of Bran's fall, nor of his assassination, so let's keep this in mind for when we examine future chapters and judge his actions.

So, what does LF know and why does he lie about the dagger?

Let’s see what LF has to say about this:

And when you know what a man wants you know who he is, and how to move him. (ASOS, Sansa VI)

Back to the current chapter:

Littlefinger laughed. “Oh, very good, my lady, but please don’t expect me to believe that. I know you too well. What were the Tully words again?”

Her throat was dry. “Family, Duty, Honor,” she recited stiffly. He did know her too well.

“Family, Duty, Honor,” he echoed. “All of which required you to remain in Winterfell, where our Hand left you. No, my lady, something has happened. This sudden trip of yours bespeaks a certain urgency. […]”

Littlefinger does not know exactly what Cat wants, but he knows who she is. He knows of her general suspicion against the Lannisters – he has taken care of that. He knows that her hands are very badly hurt, and after Varys mentions the knife he can safely assume that there’s a causality relation between the two.

By blaming Tyrion he achieves:

1. To enhance even more the enmity between Starks and Lannisters.
2. According to butterbumps! on this thread, to diverge possible suspicion of his culpability in Jon Arryn’s murder:

LF's lie isn't only about opportunism here, so I don't think he's exposing himself to Varys as sloppiness in service to an end of creating division. There's a self-preservation issue going on as well. He knows that dagger is Robert's, but if Cat and Ned figure out that it's Robert's and start asking questions about who would be inspired to finish off Bran who has access to Robert's arsenal, this causes a lot of problems for LF. At LF's prompting, Lysa sent Cat that letter accusing Cersei of killing Jon Arryn, so he knows the Starks are going to be bringing this up to Robert if they learn the dagger came from Robert's own arsenal. Those questions will lead them down the path to LF. LF has to make sure Ned and Cat are thrown off the trail, since it already leads back to him and Lysa. Blaming Tyrion for the dagger is only half of LF's message there; he's also trying to manipulate Cat into forgetting about the dagger as any sort of proof, because the truth of it would lead the Starks toward the culprits of a different murder.

However, Littlefinger’s lie cannot pass unnoticed from the spider. By lying in Varys’ presence, he allows him to figure out parts of what he wants and thus to leave himself somewhat vulnerable. So, what is it between these two? Opportunistic temporary cooperation between antagonists or something else?

********

All in all, I must admit that hopeless pawn as I am, I have more questions than settled views on these two chapters and I hope that the discussion will help shed some more light on the machinations that Cat and Ned fell victims to.