Can someone please explain

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It makes somewhat sense if those three had been conspiring with Rhaegar from the beginning and didn't care for Aerys

I agree, I'm pretty sure that at least Arthur (SSM) and Whent (ToHH) were part of a plot since the beginning. But I wouldn't say they didn't care. They definitely didn't want him dead, only removed. I suppose that, considering their King became "unworthy", they chose the logical successor, his son.

[Wmarshal]

Unless the king said "Obey him as you would me " not to much of a stretch to believe I don't think

Here is the thing, I don't see Aerys ever giving KG such a order, he distrusted him.

[Ser Leftwich]

"No, there is too much. Let me sum up.... Lyanna is marry Rhaegar in little less than half an hour. So all we have to do is find her, cut off Brandon, steal the northern girl, make our escape... after we evade Aerys." (With all due respect to the source material.)

[Wmarshal]

"No, there is too much. Let me sum up.... Lyanna is marry Rhaegar in little less than half an hour. So all we have to do is find her, cut off Brandon, steal the northern girl, make our escape... after we evade Aerys." (With all due respect to the source material.)

Is this your thought of what happened?

[Ser Leftwich]

Is this your thought of what happened?

No, it was a joke/satire/parody.

[corbon]

Here is the thing, I don't see Aerys ever giving KG such a order, he distrusted him.

:rolleyes:

...so much that he had him come home and put in charge of the army.

That would be the position that determines where military resources are allocated. Like assigning excess KG to other missions for example...

Yes, Aerys generally distrusted Rhaegar at various times and in varying amounts. But he also recognised him as his Heir, and an essentially reliable resource. The two times Aerys really feels threatened, both times he calls on Rhaegar to sort it out (once to find 'his enemy', the KotLT, and once to take command of the royalist forces now he knows the rebellion is a serious threat). Not the sign of ultimate distrust.

He also reacted somewhat excessively at a threat to Rhaegar's life (Brandon).

The 'distrust' factor from Aerys to Rhaegar needs to be placed in careful context. When shit is good, they don't appear to get on terribly well it seems, but when shit gets down, they hang together. Blood is thicker than water.

[TheLastStark]

They were their initially because Rhaegar ordered them to. At that stage the order was legit and did not clash with their vows. The king was protected at least 1 KG, the others, including these 3 (and incidentally Selmy and Darry, who were regrouping the scattered royalist forces after the Battle of the Bells) can be detatched to other tasks.

But the converstaion with Ned makes it clear that by the time Ned arrived, they alrady knew about the Trident, the Sack, and Viserys being on Dragonstone. They knew Aerys was dead, Rhaegar was dead, Aegon was dead and Viserys was on Dragonstone without any KG.

Viserys ought to have been their king at that stage. They show their loyalty to the dynasty during their conversation, and even to Aerys rather than just Rhaegar. The Succession goes Aerys->Rhaegar->Rhaegar's legitimate son(s)->Viserys->Rhaegar's legitimate daughter(s)->Dany. Viserys was their king unless there is an unknown legitimate son of Rhaegar to come ahead of him in the succession. So they ought to have sent at least one of their number to guard Viserys the King. 'King' Viserys is unprotected by the KG and that certainly trumps any commands on a dead prince to do another task - especially when they could easily have split up and done both jobs if Rahegar's orders were so important.

But no, they don't go to Viserys, and they reiterate their status as KG and holding to their vows.

Therefore Viserys cannot be their King.

Therefore there is a legitimate son of Rhaegar somewhere that they should have gone to instead. Except they didn't go anywhere.

Therefore there is a legitimate son of Rhaegar right where they are. They are true to their vows, they are certain of that, they are guarding the king already. They have not left him undefended by the KG.

Strangely enough we are already 99% certain there is a son of Rhaegar's at ToJ. And it fits the characters, the prophecies, the chekov's polygamy and every little clue placed through all the books for Rhaegar and Lyanna to have been secretly married after eloping together. It fits with Rhaegar's character, actions and known motivations (a bastard does not), it fits with Lyanna's character and actions (bearing a bastard does not), its fits with endless subtle (and not so subtle) clues about Jon being a King (whether or not he ever sits the iron throne) and similar (eg the crack about bastards not being allowed to fight princes re Jon vs Joffrey is neatly reversed) and it answers a number of minor puzzles.

Rhaegar was never the king. They would follow his orders, but not "no matter what". The King's safety and security override Rhaegar's orders, especially orders that are totally out of date and no longer relevant to the current situation.

The Kingsguard don't have a choice. You make it sound like they had a meeting and decided to stay. If they knew Rhaegar was dead, and his orders died with him, then they would of went to Arey's at once. For arguments sake Jon is legitimate, Arey's is still the King and Aegon after him, they don't get to choose which one they want to guard, their duty is to guard the current king. And if you recall Darry fled with Viserys, the Kingsgurad said that they never flee, they would rather fight and die than run. Again they don't have a choice, they don't get to choose which son to guard. As soon as they heard Rhaegar was dead(assuming they are now allowed to disobey their last order) they would return to Arey's. But nothing says that once a King dies that their vows of obeying their orders dies with them. And if once the king dies the the next in line isn't automatically king. First they need to come of age, then they need to be coronated.

Ser Barristan Selmy was the first to answer the summons, immaculate in white cloak and enameled scales. "My lords," he said, "my place is beside the young king now. Pray give me leave to attend him."

"Your place is here, Ser Barristan," Ned told him.

“I command the council to make all the necessary arrangements for my coronation,” the boy proclaimed. “I wish to be crowned within the fortnight. Today I shall accept oaths of fealty from my loyal councillors.”

And he stayed with Ned instead of going to Joff? If what you say is true he would of left Ned and went to Joff.

Rhaegar wasn't the King.

Then they would of never stayed at the ToJ.

And answer me this. Why would he marry another woman? He's already married with 2 kids and 1 is a son who is his heir. That makes no sense. He had another kid because there needs to be 3 heads to the dragon. I assume he thought himself one, Aegon(who he thought to be tPtwP) was 2, and he needed one more. That's it. Now unless he found out that it wasn't Aegon, then I could understand him marring Lyanna so as to fulfill the PtwP prophecy, but there is no proof yet that he changed his mind again. And why does a bastard not fit? He was willing to cheat on his wife for a prophecy, but not have a bastard? Yes because that is so much dishonor to have a bastard. Lyanna didn't want to marry Robert and was probably head over heels for Rhaegar, that's not proof of marriage between them. Your only proof is that there was KG there, and unless I misread the vow, they don't get to choose who to guard, and have to follow orders(and nothing says that when the order giver dies they are allowed to disobey it). What is known is that they ran away together, he left her at the ToJ, and left 3 kingsguard. That's it. No where in there does it say that they got married.

[WildBlood]

But then why 3? That's half of the Kingsguard for the 4th in line to be king? That makes no sense.

You mean ONLY 3. Rhaegar & Aerys had armies + KG with them.

[TheLastStark]

You mean ONLY 3. Rhaegar & Aerys had armies + KG with them.

No I mean why. If Jon is legitimate, he's still 4th in line, and can't be king until his coronation. Arey's is king, not Jon, so why then stay to protect the 4th in line when the king still lives? And NO THEY DON"T HAVE A CHOICE.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

No I mean why. If Jon is legitimate, he's still 4th in line, and can't be king until his coronation. Arey's is king, not Jon, so why then stay to protect the 4th in line when the king still lives? And NO THEY DON"T HAVE A CHOICE.

Because the King has the minimum of KG possible: one. His name is Jaime Lannister.

Does Viserys have the minimum of KG possible? No. Therefore he can't have been king.

[Ingelheim]

Also, I'd like to say that many people here are understimating the fact that Rhaegar was Arthur Dayne's best friend. Even if Jon hadn't been legitimated, they would have protected him till their own deaths.

But, of course, a marriage betwen Lyanna and Rhaegar prety much resolves this.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Arthur Dayne, maybe. Whent and Hightower? Nope. Especially not Hightower. That guy sticked to the rules like crazy.

[Janicia]

What was Rhaegar's plan? When was he intending to announce his marriage to Lyanna? If the whole point of marrying her was to produce legitimate heirs, failing to announce the marriage is weird. I know there was a war going on, but Robb responded to war by writing down a will to name his heir and putting it somewhere safe in case he died. If Rhaegar had died, the Targaryans had won the war, and Lyanna had survived, would she have been able to prove that Jon was legitimate? Maybe Rhaegar assumed that the Targaryans would lose the war, so he was trying to give Lyanna plausible deniability by keeping the whole thing secret?

An even bigger question: what were the three kingsguard planning to do? Maybe they hoped to flee the country with Lyanna and Jon after Lyanna gave birth? If Lyanna had died before Ned came, would they have fled with Jon to Essos and raised him themselves? Or were they just planning on staying at the tower for a suicidal last stand? Why did they fight Ned anyway? Lyanna presumably was happy to see Ned. Ned wanted Lyanna and Jon to survive. He should have been an ally. Ned probably would have helped the kingsguard get Lyanna and Jon, or even just Jon, out of the country.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

What was Rhaegar's plan? When was he intending to announce his marriage to Lyanna? If the whole point of marrying her was to produce legitimate heirs, failing to announce the marriage is weird. I know there was a war going on, but Robb responded to war by writing down a will to name his heir and putting it somewhere safe in case he died. If Rhaegar had died, the Targaryans had won the war, and Lyanna had survived, would she have been able to prove that Jon was legitimate? Maybe Rhaegar assumed that the Targaryans would lose the war, so he was trying to give Lyanna plausible deniability by keeping the whole thing secret?

As soon as it was a done deal and he had a child with her. And wasn't currently fighting a war with his child's uncle. He probably wrote a will and left it with Lyanna. But for some reason Ned didn't publish it...

An even bigger question: what were the three kingsguard planning to do? Maybe they hoped to flee the country with Lyanna and Jon after Lyanna gave birth? If Lyanna had died before Ned came, would they have fled with Jon to Essos and raised him themselves? Or were they just planning on staying at the tower for a suicidal last stand? Why did they fight Ned anyway? Lyanna presumably was happy to see Ned. Ned wanted Lyanna and Jon to survive. He should have been an ally. Ned probably would have helped the kingsguard get Lyanna and Jon, or even just Jon, out of the country.

Make Jon King of the Seven Kingdoms. Which explains why they fought Ned. He wanted Lyanna and Jon the boy to survive. The KG were sworn to make Jon King. Those two goals would only align if Ned started a war against Robert. Not gonna happen.

[TheLastStark]

Arthur Dayne, maybe. Whent and Hightower? Nope. Especially not Hightower. That guy sticked to the rules like crazy.

Exactly, and if the order was given to protect Lyanna, they would do so regardless of marriage.

Why would they make Jon king? Aegon was next after Rhaegar and still alive when Rhaegar left the ToJ. Again you are giving the KG too much leeway when it comes to what choices they have. You just stated that Hightower is strict to the rules, so then if Rhaegars orders died with him, they would of left the ToJ to go back to the king, but they didn't because the order doesn't die just because the order giver dies. Even GRRM says that if the KG are ordered to do something they have to do it. You make it sound like the whole time the plan was to say fuck the mad king and fuck Rhaegar's first wife and his first kids, yet you also say

Arthur Dayne, maybe. Whent and Hightower? Nope. Especially not Hightower. That guy sticked to the rules like crazy.

The reason they were there was because they were ordered to be there, not because Jon was the king.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Exactly, and if the order was given to protect Lyanna, they would do so regardless of marriage.

...as long as somebody (read: Jaime) was taking care of their primary duty (read: guarding the King).

Why would they make Jon king? Aegon was next after Rhaegar and still alive when Rhaegar left the ToJ. Again you are giving the KG too much leeway when it comes to what choices they have. You just stated that Hightower is strict to the rules, so then if Rhaegars orders died with him, they would of left the ToJ to go back to the king, but they didn't because the order doesn't die just because the order giver dies. Even GRRM says that if the KG are ordered to do something they have to do it. You make it sound like the whole time the plan was to say fuck the mad king and fuck Rhaegar's first wife and his first kids, yet you also say

Sure. And when Aerys died (which the KG knew), he became King and five minutes later a corpse thanks to the Mountain. Afterwards, Jon was King.

The reason they were there was because they were ordered to be there, not because Jon was the king.

Works exactly as long as there is at least one KG with the King. Now start looking at everybody with at least one Kingsguard around. One of them is the King. Now I wonder who is the only one with some KG nearby...

[TheLastStark]

1)nothing in the vow says they have to be with the king, or at least one has to be with the king, if the king sent them away they would have to go period. AGAIN THEY DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. You don't seem to understand that.

2)Rhaegar died before Arey's, and if their orders died with Rhaegar(which they don't) then they would of went back to the king. Areys didn't order them to guard Lyanna, Rhaegar did. And they followed their orders(guard the ToJ/Lyanna) till death. That was the last order given to them by their king(Areys tells them to follow Rhaegar's orders, Rhaegar orders them to stay there and protect Lyanna). They don't just run away to the next in line. If Viserys had ordered them to come(which he was probably too young to know to do/understand) then they would have. Viserys would have ruled before Jon because he was the next oldest male, so even if Jon is legit he would of been calling the shots until Jon came of age. Which is exactly why Barristan didn't run to Joff when Ned told him no, he was not a man grown and had not had his coronation yet, which is needed to be recognized as king. Did Jon ever have a coronation?NO. Was Jon old enough to give orders to the KG?NO. Was Viserys?Not at that time. Therefore they would of followed the last order they were given, to protect Lyanna. That is not evidence of Jon being legit, more just the KG following their oaths(which one of them is follow all and any order) and orders.

3)Read the vow again, they can extend protection to their Bastards(Jon) and Mistresses(Lyanna).

4)Orders DON'T DIE when the order giver dies, they must follow them. That is hardly proof of who is king.

Works exactly as long as there is at least one KG with the King. Now start looking at everybody with at least one Kingsguard around. One of them is the King. Now I wonder who is the only one with some KG nearby... This makes no sense.

[Steelborn]

Plot twist: What if the Tower of Joy sequence was a metaphor dream? It could have happened a different way, but somehow Ned's subconscious plays the way we had seen in aGoT.

I know this doesn't add much to the discussion and House of The Undying vision was pretty much a given (the blue flower on a wall of ice).

[Bright Blue Eyes]

1)nothing in the vow says they have to be with the king, or at least one has to be with the king, if the king sent them away they would have to go period. AGAIN THEY DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. You don't seem to understand that.

That's probably the reason why they've got that quaint little ceremony of asking for the King's safety whenever meeting in White Sword Tower...

2)Rhaegar died before Arey's, and if their orders died with Rhaegar(which they don't) then they would of went back to the king. Areys didn't order them to guard Lyanna, Rhaegar did. And they followed their orders(guard the ToJ/Lyanna) till death. That was the last order given to them by their king(Areys tells them to follow Rhaegar's orders, Rhaegar orders them to stay there and protect Lyanna). They don't just run away to the next in line. If Viserys had ordered them to come(which he was probably too young to know to do/understand) then they would have. Viserys would have ruled before Jon because he was the next oldest male, so even if Jon is legit he would of been calling the shots until Jon came of age. Which is exactly why Barristan didn't run to Joff when Ned told him no, he was not a man grown and had not had his coronation yet, which is needed to be recognized as king. Did Jon ever have a coronation?NO. Was Jon old enough to give orders to the KG?NO. Was Viserys?Not at that time. Therefore they would of followed the last order they were given, to protect Lyanna. That is not evidence of Jon being legit, more just the KG following their oaths(which one of them is follow all and any order) and orders.

Yes, two weeks before Aerys and Aegon died. Now, how fast do the news travel to the ToJ? Why didn't run Barristan to Joffrey? Because Joffrey had five Kingsguards trailing him beside Barristan and the absent Jaime.

3)Read the vow again, they can extend protection to their Bastards(Jon) and Mistresses(Lyanna).

...as long as the King is guarded by the KG. That is their primary duty.

4)Orders DON'T DIE when the order giver dies, they must follow them. That is hardly proof of who is king.

Yes, and the one order that always supercedes all others is that the King has to be guarded. By at least one KG in close proximity. When they were seven, that happened. After they were down to three, those three had to dispatch at least one to the King. Look where all three are...

Works exactly as long as there is at least one KG with the King. Now start looking at everybody with at least one Kingsguard around. One of them is the King. Now I wonder who is the only one with some KG nearby... This makes no sense.

Well, if you'd actually wondered, you'd arrived at Lyanna and Jon being the only ones who qualify. Since Lyanna isn't King, that leaves only Jon as a viable candidate.

[TheLastStark]

1)A formality based on the first vow, but again if they were ordered away, then they would have to follow those orders.

2)the reason he didn't run to Joff was because Joff was not yet anointed king.

3)The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to obey the king's commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and keep silent when it was not, serve his pleasure and defend his name and honor. Strictly speaking, it was purely the king's choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of the royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater and lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses and bastards.

Here is the vow, now please highlight where it says that at least one KG needs to be with the King. It doesn't, that's just an assumption people make because they vow to defend the king, but again if the king orders them away, then they have to go.

4)the vow is not an order, and again unless the new king orders them to return(in this case was still a kid) then they have to continue their previous order(protect Lyanna)

5)The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to obey the king's commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and keep silent when it was not, serve his pleasure and defend his name and honor. Strictly speaking, it was purely the king's choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of the royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater and lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses and bastards.

that's pretty clear cut to me, not sure about you. If they were ordered to protect the mistress and bastard of Rhaegar, then guess what, they would. They wouldn't abandon the last order given to them unless the new king(Viserys) ordered them to leave(which he didn't). Nothing in the vow says as soon as one king dies they need to run the the next one.