Is it possible to redeem Arya?

[123456750]

I have read many comments in this forum and realised that many people think that Arya can't have a bright future and will become a ruthless assasin. So I decided to create this topic to discuss if it is possible to redeem Arya (if yes then how?).

I, for example, think that if she meets a strong and honourable man who will love her (maybe even Gendry), then that man can make her stop being a serial killer (even forcibly if needs be), and save her.

[Dya of Oldstones]

Arya's (and Sansa's) arc is more tied into them remembering who they are as Starks as Winterfell. I would have been sailing on the Arya/Gendry ship if GRRM had put in the 5 year gap, but without getting too spoilery, there's better ways for Arya to fulfill her arc.

ETA: There's also more foreshadowing that Arya may not be interested in anyone romantically. For starters, she's still a child but even at that she's not interested in the more innocent versions of romantic love/crushes appropriate for girls her age.

[ARYa_Nym]

GRRM said Arya being an assassin is assumption. That doesn't mean she will stop killing though. She just might not be a FM or be the resident killer for the Starks like many want.

I don't think the identity question is necessarily connected to her being good.

It's been pointed out that a lot of characters in A Dance With Dragons are losing their names, and their very identities, as a result of intense circumstances. What's that about?

Arya has been doing it for some time, actually. Arya has gone through a dozen different identities, even getting to Braavos — where the ultimate goal of the Faceless Men is to become no-one, and to be able to assume identities as one assumes a suit of clothes. But yes, identity is one of the things that I'm playing with in this series as a whole, and in this particular book — what is it that makes us who we are? Is it our birth, our blood, our position in the world? Or something more integral to us? Our values our memories, et cetera.

He said he has been playing with that and wonders if value makes a person who they are. I was just saying the other day that Rodrik Stark went to Essos and became a professional killer.

On topic I think she's going to get darker. She is only just now identifying as a monster and killing I don't think is almost a game to her yet.

But she's already going around killing people and she's learned a lot of the secrets.

Not only in Ice and Fire — we also did this bit in the Wild Cards series, the whole thing of the child solider is a fascinating construct. We have this picture of children [as] so sweet and innocent. I think some of the recent history in Africa and some of the longer history have shown that under the right circumstances, they can become just as dangerous as men, and in some ways more dangerous. On some level, it’s almost a game to them.

http://observationdeck.io9.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845

I don't see why Gendry could prevent anything. He couldn't when he was around her. He doesn't prevent her from doing anything now. She's likely going to kill Dunsen too for only taking his helm. That's more about her desire to kill than her feelings about Gendry who she no longer thinks about. She won't kill him to protect Gendry or because Gendry wanted it.

[Lion Of The Night]

Arya's (and Sansa's) arc is more tied into them remembering who they are as Starks as Winterfell. I would have been sailing on the Arya/Gendry ship if GRRM had put in the 5 year gap, but without getting too spoilery, there's better ways for Arya to fulfill her arc.

ETA: There's also more foreshadowing that Arya may not be interested in anyone romantically. For starters, she's still a child but even at that she's not interested in the more innocent versions of romantic love/crushes appropriate for girls her age.

I disagree, her thoughts during her time with Gendry seemed to me like a girl who is confused about what she is feeling and trying to purposely distance herself from them because she didn't want to be like Sansa. No, it was not love, but maybe the first stirrings of a crush.

But I digress, I dont think a man NEEDS to save her, I think she needs to save herself. She will eventually have a crisis of morality with her new line of work and have to decide what she will become.

Whether or not she settles down and gets married, or chooses a life of adventure, or anything else is immaterial. Her arc is figuring out just who Arya Stark is and if she wants to remain Arya.

[ARYa_Nym]

Oh, and if Gendry thinks she needs to be saved maybe that points to them not being compatible? He doesn't accept her as she is. I noticed Hot Pie and Gendry can judge her for killing that guard but are willing to reap the benefits of her dirty work while simultaneously judging her. She is much worse now than she was in ACoK. They wouldn't know Mercy. It seems really ungrateful to me. If not for her they would be dead long ago.

I don't think she needs redemption though and the redemption arcs are unsatisfactory to me.

ETA: I don't think there's necessarily foreshadowing that she won't ever be interested in anyone romantically. But it is interesting that she's surrounded by males now and is interested in none of them. & not being romantic or wanting to be like her sister is not really a reason. The desire/interest just isn't there. It could come later or she might stay like she is now. But some think she's starting to get off on killing but I think that's too early to say as fact.

Although I don't think the lack of 5 year gap prevents anything. Since he uses the child soldier comparison it's not surprising the way she behaved in the latest chapter. Many have disturbing sexual history and will have premature sexual experiences with men.

[Ser Quork]

I don't think she needs redemption though

I agree.

I think it's very important to keep focused on the child soldier element. I believe that is the element GRRM is trying to explore with Arya. I don't accept that Arya is a psychopath, or all the other labels people try to stick on her. She is a child who has been through immense loss and trauma, and has reacted to her situation. I also wonder if some readers would be as critical of her choices if she were a boy.

[naseridrl]

I agree.

I think it's very important to keep focused on the child soldier element. I believe that is the element GRRM is trying to explore with Arya. I don't accept that Arya is a psychopath, or all the other labels people try to stick on her. She is a child who has been through immense loss and trauma, and has reacted to her situation. I also wonder if some readers would be as critical of her choices if she were a boy.

I think if she were a boy no one would be saying he needed a good woman to come along and love him, take care of him and forcibly change him if needed.

[Dya of Oldstones]

I'm leaning more toward the child soldier arc for Arya as well, and she's even younger than The Hound was when he killed his first man. Arya finding a "good man" to save her is on the bottom of the list at this point and I don't think it belongs there in the first place. I'm still on the fence about her needing any redemption at this point in her story.

I think if she were a boy no one would be saying he needed a good woman to come along and love him, take care of him and forcibly change him if needed.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Redeem her from what?

Killing Raff? Good, screw him.

Dareon? He was an asshole too.

Arya stayed friends with Lommy, and even went out of her way to avenge him, even though he bullied her. Arya made friends of both him and Hot Pie. She doesn't abandon them either. She foraged food for them, tried to save them from the Gold Cloaks, gave water to the northmen being tortured by the BWB. She gave up a chance to get at tywin and cercei and instead used her last name to force Jaqen to instead do something she thought would help her friends. All that characterization didn't just vanish when she boarded the Titan's daughter.

Only 5 chapters have even taken place in Braavos: it's not even one quarter of her life story, so it's not nearly as important as people believe that it is.

As late as AFFC, she saved Samwell from the bravos and gave him free muscles. Also, you'll notice, she's one of the least classest people in the books. She befriends the sailors and prostitutes in Braavos, and the latter especially seem to genuinely have affection for her.

Every time she asked by the Kindly Man who she is and answers "no one", she is told that she is lying or that she "Cat of the Canals" (who is really just Arya Stark, Cat being an obvious name connected to winterfell) and her warging connection with Nymeria has only strengthened. Gods, her Mercy chapter even started with her having a warging dream and ended with her killing Raff with Needle. NEEDLE!

"Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile. He used to muss my hair and call me 'little sister' , she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes."

If GRRM has plans for her to go dark side and totally break ties with House Stark, then he had better do so fast, cause he has already dumped the time jump (which was meant in fact, to make Arya and Bran's future stories make more sense, but "if a 12 year old has to conquer the world then so be it") and there are only 2 years left in the narrative, which isn't a lot of time.

[ARYa_Nym]

I must also say that I don't think her being dark is a matter of being with the FM or not. Most of her kills are unrelated to the FM. Did the KM make her murder Dareon? No. Did he have to stop her from killing the insurance man's guards? Yes. The latest is something she wanted to do. She only killed for them once but there's not only one reason to think she's dark heart.

[Tynned Lannistark]

I don't think its a question of redemption.

Theoretically , I think she could develop in many ways that would turn her back to "normal".

From story perspective, I don't get the feeling her story is going that way.

She has a role to fullfill, and honestly, I am very skeptical that this arc ends happily.

I believe her the end of her arc is something GRRM had in plan since the very beginning and hate to say it but I think it involves her dying.

If I remember correctly there is even foreshadowing of that early in AGOT when Jon says something about her being found frozen to death with a needle in her hand (referring to a real needle, before he gave her the sword).

As for a good man to save her - no one in the story yet was saved by a good man/woman. not likely its going to happen as well. lots of people died due to a bad lover though. Some even died due to a good lover (Ned).

If anyone is likely to be saved by love its Jamie, not Arya.

[Maid So Fair]

I don't think she has done anything that would require redemption. She has not done anything that would require her to make amends even if her actions are sometimes dark. She has done nothing wrong.

I personally really hate the Faceless Men arc for Arya, mostly because it seems to require losing her identity and at the end of the day, it's Arya that I came to love, not no-one. I think the only way to make sure of that is for her to leave the FM and forge her own path, and she is getting closer and closer to the breaking point with them. What she lacks at the moment is hope - she thinks she has lost everyone apart from Jon who even if alive is out of reach and something needs to happen to show her that it is not the case and that she can actually help them, that revenge is not the only thing left to her. So far, her link to herself has been Nymeria so I think it would fit neatly into the narrative if that decision is triggered by something Nymeria sees or possibly through Bran and the Old Gods. It's telling that the Temple does not have a heart tree/weirwood despite having shrines dedicated to half-forgotten deities from places thousands of miles away from Braavos. I support Gendry/Arya but I would be extremely disappointed if it's caused by a romantic interest. She's never been someone to believe that love conquers all and that was before she has gone through all she has.

[ARYa_Nym]

If anyone is likely to be saved by love its Jamie, not Arya.

Maybe only to die not long after that.

He damned them all: Littlefinger, Janos Slynt and his gold cloaks, the queen, the Kingslayer, Pycelle and Varys and Ser Barristan, even Lord Renly, Robert's own blood, who had run when he was needed most. Yet in the end he blamed himself. "Fool," he cried to the darkness, "thrice-damned blind fool."

I'm thinking Ned's naming will work similar to Arya's list.

[Kienn]

Arya needs no redemption, she's done nothing wrong.

Also having a man "tame and save" her would be pretty super lame.

[Cold Crashing Waves]

I don't think she needs to be redeemed. I do think she'll break away from the Faceless Men and attempt to 'be' a Stark again, though.

[123456750]

I think if she were a boy no one would be saying he needed a good woman to come along and love him, take care of him and forcibly change him if needed.

If she were a boy I think I would think the same way (that a loving woman can redeem him ), because love is a very strong feeling and can save people.

She has already killed people who were not even in her list, and haven't done anything bad to her - Dareon, and her first kill as a Faceless man.

That is not a good sign at all, and shows how much she has changed (not for the better).

[juanml82]

Redeem her from what?

Killing Raff? Good, screw him.

Dareon? He was an asshole too.

Arya stayed friends with Lommy, and even went out of her way to avenge him, even though he bullied her. Arya made friends of both him and Hot Pie. She doesn't abandon them either. She foraged food for them, tried to save them from the Gold Cloaks, gave water to the northmen being tortured by the BWB. She gave up a chance to get at tywin and cercei and instead used her last name to force Jaqen to instead do something she thought would help her friends. All that characterization didn't just vanish when she boarded the Titan's daughter.

Only 5 chapters have even taken place in Braavos: it's not even one quarter of her life story, so it's not nearly as important as people believe that it is.

As late as AFFC, she saved Samwell from the bravos and gave him free muscles. Also, you'll notice, she's one of the least classest people in the books. She befriends the sailors and prostitutes in Braavos, and the latter especially seem to genuinely have affection for her.

Every time she asked by the Kindly Man who she is and answers "no one", she is told that she is lying or that she "Cat of the Canals" (who is really just Arya Stark, Cat being an obvious name connected to winterfell) and her warging connection with Nymeria has only strengthened. Gods, her Mercy chapter even started with her having a warging dream and ended with her killing Raff with Needle. NEEDLE!

"Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile. He used to muss my hair and call me 'little sister' , she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes."

If GRRM has plans for her to go dark side and totally break ties with House Stark, then he had better do so fast, cause he has already dumped the time jump (which was meant in fact, to make Arya and Bran's future stories make more sense, but "if a 12 year old has to conquer the world then so be it") and there are only 2 years left in the narrative, which isn't a lot of time.

I don't think she used Needle in the Mercy chapter. Most likely, to the location and the position of her and Raff - Needle is too long. Most likely, it was a small hidden blade of some sort.

As for redemption... she is still a friendly soul, but she has a hole where her hearth was and I don't think that kind of wounds would ever heal.

[ARYa_Nym]

If she were a boy I think I would think the same way (that a loving woman can redeem him ), because love is a very strong feeling and can save people.

She has already killed people who were not even in her list, and haven't done anything bad to her - Dareon, and her first kill as a Faceless man.

That is not a good sign at all, and shows how much she has changed (not for the better).

The first time she killed someone who didn't do anything bad to her was way back in book 2 but she had more of a reason to kill that person.

There was also the collateral damage of Weasel Soup. Gendry was pissed because one guy died that he liked. Jaqen recruited her because he saw something in her back then. She didn't do a hit then but she sent a FM on people. She had already killed more than 5 people before she got to the FM.

[James Arryn]

I have read many comments in this forum and realised that many people think that Arya can't have a bright future and will become a ruthless assasin. So I decided to create this topic to discuss if it is possible to redeem Arya (if yes then how?).

I, for example, think that if she meets a strong and honourable man who will love her (maybe even Gendry), then that man can make her stop being a serial killer (even forcibly if needs be), and save her.

You are about to be attacked along several lines.

1) the idea that she needs redemption

2) the idea that a girl can't be an assassin without being immoral

3) the fact that the answer for her is 'the right man'

I think 1 is certainly arguable. I think 2 should be arguable...I don't think gender ought to play a role in this, and would normally argue against the assumption that it does, except for 3, where IMO you kind of fucked the pooch.

Edit: just read beyond OP, see much of my post already covered.

[Eat My Steel]

No.

Once a person has seen that much pain, despair, and tragedy nobody can return from that, at least not fully. This is happening during her childhood....