Heresy 136 The Heart of Darkness

[King Tyrion XX]

Boasting again...

I'll settle for October 28, the news item on the left tells us that there's going to be a lot of information revealed.

I can't wait. $30 well spent :)

[wolfmaid7]

It is interesting that you bring up magical healing because I have been thinking about that lately. I don't think we have seen one instance of true healing in all the books. Brans story is the perfect example as he remains a cripple, the three eyed crow could only push his mind to wake up.

We have a lot of people brought back to life but all of them keep their wounds, scars and disfigurements. Melisandre uses a glamour rather than to 'heal' her face and body from age and scars. Even Victarion gets a new magic hand instead of a healed one.

Thanks. Another heart is of course the burned heart of the red lot.

Good that you clarified your point, I guess we have agree to disagree.

True...True with Bran and Summer or should I say in that form of relationship there is a shared or transfer of health when two of this kind share a soul.BR for instance got extended life from the Weirwoods.

We even saw it with Dany and Drogon.Some type of restoration does happen.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

True...True with Bran and Summer or should I say in that form of relationship there is a shared or transfer of health when two of this kind share a soul.BR for instance got extended life from the Weirwoods.

We even saw it with Dany and Drogon.Some type of restoration does happen.

I don't know, but I've been told, a long leg canine ain't got no soul

Really though the two don't share a soul. If so, then the wolf would be soulless until it met it's match. Although, Varamyr's death showed us two souls can share one vessel. I wonder if the wolf soul can/will become part of the human after its death. Things that make you go hmmm.

With Bran and Dany there is definitely something great happening. I think it may be more of a mental or psychological strengthening than a physical one. Their wounds don't dissappear but they still survive. Just stayin alive.

[wolfmaid7]

I don't know, but I've been told, a long leg canine ain't got no soul

Really though the two don't share a soul. If so, then the wolf would be soulless until it met it's match. Although, Varamyr's death showed us two souls can share one vessel. I wonder if the wolf soul can/will become part of the human after its death. Things that make you go hmmm.

With Bran and Dany there is definitely something great happening. I think it may be more of a mental or psychological strengthening than a physical one. Their wounds don't dissappear but they still survive. Just stayin alive.

I beg to differ,and without going to much into magical and spiritual definition the mind is considered "soul" it goes back into that whole idea of the shadow self and all that jazz.We kind of get a bit of a POV from Ghost/Jon on the Skirling path and that is the one that makes you go hmmm.I mean if their is problem separating them,it means that we probably shouldn't.

I disagree on the psychological strength as only the outcome. Remember Dany was physically hurting and after that dream no pain.She had recovered and i can't forget the Targ king who GRRM mentioned as being sick but after he bonded with his Dragon becoming whole.Its a case by case situation but we have the cases to show.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I beg to differ,and without going to much into magical and spiritual definition the mind is considered "soul" it goes back into that whole idea of the shadow self and all that jazz.We kind of get a bit of a POV from Ghost/Jon on the Skirling path and that is the one that makes you go hmmm.I mean if their is problem separating them,it means that we probably shouldn't.

I disagree on the psychological strength as only the outcome. Remember Dany was physically hurting and after that dream no pain.She had recovered and i can't forget the Targ king who GRRM mentioned as being sick but after he bonded with his Dragon becoming whole.Its a case by case situation but we have the cases to show.

I dont see where there is a problem individually seperating two individuals. They can be ,and are, their own selves. They are seperate yet bonded. Like two pennies on the train track the train crushed into one. Sometimes, they merge. This is where I see two blending into one. The skinchanging (mind meld?) it is for a short time, at various times, conciously or unconsciously, on the life long timescale. Though in death the two truly become one being. Or at least a part of the one becomes part of the other.

As to the strenth issue, you are saying what I'm saying kinda. Their wounds did not physically heal. They became stronger in mind and spirit. They overcame their dissabilitating sicknesses/wounds to live another day, and another and another.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Just throwing this out there. A while back I posited that the Heart of Winter might be the cave of skulls, cave o' doom, BR's lair, call it what you will. With all the talk of the Heart of Darkness, and Armstark's Heart related post, I wonder if the cave does contain, or is, the Heart of Winter. If Bloodraven is somehow the cause of the Winter phenomenon. As in he has opened Pandora's Box somehow. Now Bran can run with it or not. I thought I had more to add to these ramblings. Got distracted. Maybe, I just want my idea of the Heart of Winter in the cave to be right on.

Should not have stopped for yogurt.

[Black Crow]

It is interesting that you bring up magical healing because I have been thinking about that lately. I don't think we have seen one instance of true healing in all the books. Bran's story is the perfect example as he remains a cripple, the three eyed crow could only push his mind to wake up.

We have a lot of people brought back to life but all of them keep their wounds, scars and disfigurements. Melisandre uses a glamour rather than to 'heal' her face and body from age and scars. Even Victarion gets a new magic hand instead of a healed one...

I'm much inclined to agree in that I think that a lot of this comes back to degrees of "cheating" death.

Wights are obviously dead but still walking around.

Coldhands is dead, but still walking - and aware of it.

On the basis of the evidence presented to us, Mel, Moqorro and probably Victarion are also dead but like Coldhands sustained by magic. Whether and how far they are aware of this remains to be seen. Mel certainly seems to be aware she's been around a long time, but Victarion seems totally oblivious to his present condition.

Bloodraven is dead and sustained only by the magic of the tree.

Craster's sons are presumably also dead, since last we spoke I've moved on a little from their being transferred into bodies of snow and ice and cold to see a [rapid] transformation into ice made flesh. In that state, so long as they don't melt or the spell is broken by dragonglass or sich, they can probably exist indefinitely.

The point being that as you say the magic heals nothing, they just don't die - and some of them may be getting rather weary of that.

[Black Crow]

Just throwing this out there. A while back I posited that the Heart of Winter might be the cave of skulls, cave o' doom, BR's lair, call it what you will. With all the talk of the Heart of Darkness, and Armstark's Heart related post, I wonder if the cave does contain, or is, the Heart of Winter. If Bloodraven is somehow the cause of the Winter phenomenon. As in he has opened Pandora's Box somehow. Now Bran can run with it or not. I thought I had more to add to these ramblings. Got distracted. Maybe, I just want my idea of the Heart of Winter in the cave to be right on.

Should not have stopped for yogurt.

I agree insofar as there's a very good case for "locating" the Heart of Winter in that cave, especially given the Heart of Darkness and Kurtz/Bloodreven parallels, and I do suspect that Bloodraven/Kurtz is at least partly responsible for what's going on up North - I'm just mindful though of GRRM's statement that we're going to see the Land of Always Winter in the next one - and in my maps that's way beyond the cave.

That being said, I can still see scenarios where a journey may need to be undertaken up there without contradicting the importance of the Inner Station.

[Melifeather]

If we view the greenseer position as similar to Kurtz then becoming a greenseer would be like entering the heart of winter. All those before Bran impaled on the ice spires perhaps were overtaken by the darkness of abusive desires and corruption of power. Bran's fear maybe comes from all the challenges ahead and the temptations for abuse, just like Leaf's warning to not call back his father.

[King of Winters]

Mind you, although it apparently took the "touch" referred to by Sam way back in that first series episode written by GRRM to turn the colour of the baby's eyes and skin, the process must have already begun for him to survive the journey north in the first place.

Or he could've just been wrapped up nice and warm. I don't think it started that far back, I think either only the Night's King, or one of the 13, can turn them into WW or they all can and they just leave it to the Night's King as part of a ceremony.

[King of Winters]

If we view the greenseer position as similar to Kurtz then becoming a greenseer would be like entering the heart of winter. All those before Bran impaled on the ice spires perhaps were overtaken by the darkness of abusive desires and corruption of power. Bran's fear maybe comes from all the challenges ahead and the temptations for abuse, just like Leaf's warning to not call back his father.

Maybe then the cave he's in is, in someway, the heart of winter. Or maybe you enter the "heart of winter" by entering the Weirnet.

[wolfmaid7]

I agree insofar as there's a very good case for "locating" the Heart of Winter in that cave, especially given the Heart of Darkness and Kurtz/Bloodreven parallels, and I do suspect that Bloodraven/Kurtz is at least partly responsible for what's going on up North - I'm just mindful though of GRRM's statement that we're going to see the Land of Always Winter in the next one - and in my maps that's way beyond the cave.

That being said, I can still see scenarios where a journey may need to be undertaken up there without contradicting the importance of the Inner Station.

This where i disagree a bit,i don't think BR is responsible for "what's going on North" i use that phrase sparingly because i don't think halting Winter could be helped.It was it's season to happen,but the duration and as i think the Wights are another matter that needs to be addressed.If we are going with parallel and who fits what BR's position is not that of the Winter king,so we are looking for someone else.So whoever is wielding the Winter forces is probably entomed somewhere else.LOAW is a good bet for another greenseer type being there.

If we view the greenseer position as similar to Kurtz then becoming a greenseer would be like entering the heart of winter. All those before Bran impaled on the ice spires perhaps were overtaken by the darkness of abusive desires and corruption of power. Bran's fear maybe comes from all the challenges ahead and the temptations for abuse, just like Leaf's warning to not call back his father.

To an extent i agree ,but i think Bran has the same potential of being corrupted just as whoever the winter king is have been.Bran could usher in a Summer that never ends and it will still be as terrible as a neverending winter.It depends on the heart of whose sitting the respective thrones.

[alienarea]

I have a sneaking feeling in totall there are two,always two at a time BR( Bran will replace him ofcource) and whoever the other one is that Jon will take over from.I'm not sure that anyone is exploiting him though.He maybe unchecked and his abilities a bit more instense because he's in zenith,but i think he was the NK.Even though Mel is a bit cocoo in her interpretations i believe she is right....There is only two.Again her understanding of the two is off and what they mean to each other ,in that you can't have one without the other.

Sithraven?

Moquorro has facial tattoos ...

[Frey family reunion]

This where i disagree a bit,i don't think BR is responsible for "what's going on North" i use that phrase sparingly because i don't think halting Winter could be helped.It was it's season to happen,but the duration and as i think the Wights are another matter that needs to be addressed.If we are going with parallel and who fits what BR's position is not that of the Winter king,so we are looking for someone else.So whoever is wielding the Winter forces is probably entomed somewhere else.LOAW is a good bet for another greenseer type being there.

To an extent i agree ,but i think Bran has the same potential of being corrupted just as whoever the winter king is have been.Bran could usher in a Summer that never ends and it will still be as terrible as a neverending winter.It depends on the heart of whose sitting the respective thrones.

Could your coconspirator be Coldhands? We assume that he is a servant of Bloodraven, but for all we know they may be equals. Coldhands describes Bloodraven as:

"A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer."

He never refers to Bloodraven as a master. Their relationship may be different than what we assume.

Finally, look at the entire context of Bran's question to Coldhands. I always assumed that Coldhands was telling Bran that he (Coldhands) was Bran's monster, but instead I think Coldhands is telling Bran that Bloodraven is Bran's monster:

Meera's Gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?"

"A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." The longhall's wooden door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming. Coldhands did not move.

"A monster," Bran said.

The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "your monster, Brandon Stark."

Later in the passage seems to associate Bran's monster with Coldhands which makes the reader assume that Coldhand's is Bran's monster:

"We go with the ranger," said Jojen. "We have come too far to turn back now, Meera. We would never make it back to the Wall alive. We go with Bran's monster, or we die.

But if you look at the context of the conversation between Bran, Meera, and Coldhands, it is clear that Coldhand's tells Bran that Bloodraven is his monster. And while technically we can conclude that Coldhands says that Bloodraven sent him, Coldhands could have been answering only Meera's second question: "who is the three-eyed crow?"

I've brought up the Dracula parallels before in the context that Bloodraven is our Count Dracula. But in the original novel, it is Dracula himself who is driving the coach that picks up Harker and takes him to Castle Dracula. Just lke it is Coldhands who picks up Bran and company and brings them to the cave. Another connection between the two is that like Coldhands Dracula is warded against entering certain dwellings.

[Melifeather]

This where i disagree a bit,i don't think BR is responsible for "what's going on North" i use that phrase sparingly because i don't think halting Winter could be helped.It was it's season to happen,but the duration and as i think the Wights are another matter that needs to be addressed.If we are going with parallel and who fits what BR's position is not that of the Winter king,so we are looking for someone else.So whoever is wielding the Winter forces is probably entomed somewhere else.LOAW is a good bet for another greenseer type being there.

To an extent i agree ,but i think Bran has the same potential of being corrupted just as whoever the winter king is have been.Bran could usher in a Summer that never ends and it will still be as terrible as a neverending winter.It depends on the heart of whose sitting the respective thrones.

Your words caused me to think that the imbalance of seasons is due to who sits the greenseer position. Some abused winter, some abused summer. If there are two greenseers it could be a battle of wills between Bloodraven and ??? with Bloodraven ushering in summer and ??? pushing for winter. Bran names his direwolf summer and Nan calls Bran a "summer child", so will Bran also manuever summer over whomever controls winter?

[Melifeather]

Could your coconspirator be Coldhands? We assume that he is a servant of Bloodraven, but for all we know they may be equals. Coldhands describes Bloodraven as:

He never refers to Bloodraven as a master. Their relationship may be different than what we assume.

Finally, look at the entire context of Bran's question to Coldhands. I always assumed that Coldhands was telling Bran that he (Coldhands) was Bran's monster, but instead I think Coldhands is telling Bran that Bloodraven is Bran's monster:

Later in the passage seems to associate Bran's monster with Coldhands which makes the reader assume that Coldhand's is Bran's monster:

But if you look at the context of the conversation between Bran, Meera, and Coldhands, it is clear that Coldhand's tells Bran that Bloodraven is his monster. And while technically we can conclude that Coldhands says that Bloodraven sent him, Coldhands could have been answering only Meera's second question: "who is the three-eyed crow?"

I've brought up the Dracula parallels before in the context that Bloodraven is our Count Dracula. But in the original novel, it is Dracula himself who is driving the coach that picks up Harker and takes him to Castle Dracula. Just lke it is Coldhands who picks up Bran and company and brings them to the cave. Another connection between the two is that like Coldhands Dracula is warded against entering certain dwellings.

Oh not this deadhorse again. If there's one argument that I've repeated the most it's this one! :ack:

Bran is still looking at Coldhands when he calls him a monster. I don't have access to my supportive text with me and will have to wait until I can reach it.

[wolfmaid7]

Sithraven?

Moquorro has facial tattoos ...

Lol....

Could your coconspirator be Coldhands? We assume that he is a servant of Bloodraven, but for all we know they may be equals. Coldhands describes Bloodraven as:

He never refers to Bloodraven as a master. Their relationship may be different than what we assume.

Finally, look at the entire context of Bran's question to Coldhands. I always assumed that Coldhands was telling Bran that he (Coldhands) was Bran's monster, but instead I think Coldhands is telling Bran that Bloodraven is Bran's monster:

Later in the passage seems to associate Bran's monster with Coldhands which makes the reader assume that Coldhand's is Bran's monster:

But if you look at the context of the conversation between Bran, Meera, and Coldhands, it is clear that Coldhand's tells Bran that Bloodraven is his monster. And while technically we can conclude that Coldhands says that Bloodraven sent him, Coldhands could have been answering only Meera's second question: "who is the three-eyed crow?"

I've brought up the Dracula parallels before in the context that Bloodraven is our Count Dracula. But in the original novel, it is Dracula himself who is driving the coach that picks up Harker and takes him to Castle Dracula. Just lke it is Coldhands who picks up Bran and company and brings them to the cave. Another connection between the two is that like Coldhands Dracula is warded against entering certain dwellings.

I don't know,but i would think it is someone GRRM has introduced already...Be it myth or someone we've actually seen.

Oh not this deadhorse again. If there's one argument that I've repeated the most it's this one! :ack:

Bran is still looking at Coldhands when he calls him a monster. I don't have access to my supportive text with me and will have to wait until I can reach it.

cool.

Your words caused me to think that the imbalance of seasons is due to who sits the greenseer position. Some abused winter, some abused summer. If there are two greenseers it could be a battle of wills between Bloodraven and ??? with Bloodraven ushering in summer and ??? pushing for winter. Bran names his direwolf summer and Nan calls Bran a "summer child", so will Bran also manuever summer over whomever controls winter?

I think this is right BR is in a battle with whoever the other is and depending on what GRRM chooses to do,BR's position must not come out on top,not at this point anyway.That will be catastrophic because no matter how we cut it,it "is" Winter's time to rule.Again it is a possibility and it would make things more confrontational if Bran is manipulated to usher in an endless Summer.I think Dany will have a part to play in indirectly helping Bran,it has to do with that element mounting.

This is an issue between 4 people the outgoing( BR and ?) the in comming ( Bran and Jon).If GRRM is playing out this eternal song then, if all goes well then BR is suppose to be slain to reset the cycle.This is the Song of Ice and Fire in truth.

[Black Crow]

Could your co-conspirator be Coldhands? We assume that he is a servant of Bloodraven, but for all we know they may be equals. Coldhands describes Bloodraven as..

He never refers to Bloodraven as a master. Their relationship may be different than what we assume.

I'm still very much inclined to identify Coldhands as the Russian - awed by Kurtz and associated with him but not a servant as such. The Russian encountered Kurtz independently and fell under his spell but he wasn't otherwise attached to him. I'd suspect the same might be true of Coldhands and that if he was killed long ago he was killed long before Bloodraven came north and has loosely attached himself to him but not as servant to master.

[Black Crow]

This is an issue between 4 people the outgoing( BR and ?) the in comming ( Bran and Jon).If GRRM is playing out this eternal song then, if all goes well then BR is suppose to be slain to reset the cycle.This is the Song of Ice and Fire in truth.

That certainly appears to be what the children want but I have to wonder whether a resolution of the story requires that the cycle be broken rather than reset

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

I apologize if this has been asked but is their any evidence leading us to believe that BloodRaven has an arch enemy that is somehow going to be introduced in the final 2 books? Any 6 eared owls out there that he's having an ESP battle with?