The Riverlands Web V.2

[Hrafntýr]

So, to backtrack a little bit: booknerd, this one's for you: Michelle Fairley and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau comment on Jacket Cigar. Listen right up to the end, to get the pronunciation right (it starts at 6:39, in case the bookmark doesn't work).

[LongRider]

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First off, in general, the two closest men to Arya and Sansa, both make a cameo appearance in book 4, like a reminder to keep an eye on them. That they are still there and not doing too well. Also, the tension in many of the chapters is all the people looking for Arya and Sansa, and the two that care a lot, pop up in the book. They were both left as out of the story in book 3, and one even left for dead. One is all angry, hanging with an Arya lookalike (as Brienne, not so nonchalantly, had come into her thoughts for the readers) working at what is an orphanage, where kids are being brought there because the people he is with are looking for Arya, and Sansa. And the Hound makes his disguised appearance, yet his counterpart, Stranger, is the exact opposite of what EB is telling Brienne, and the mood being forced on us.

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And this one I love. That it is a symbol of obedience.

So Stranger bites it off. Symbolizing he is not going to be obedient. It is an act of defiance.

~~~snap~~~

Love the ear reference!

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What’s next for Sandor Clegane? These are what I see as possibilities:

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2. When he next meets Sansa (I don’t believe in an ‘if’ on this one), he will be silent at first, I’d say. And I am building this off of the ‘why will he not speak to me’ part she asks when she has her meet and greet with Ser Ilyn (and the Hound). As a writer, I think GRRM would note that in all of their past exchanges, it’s Sandor who’s telling stories to the stories girl, and not the other way around. It would be progressive if Sansa was the one who spoke first and had a story of her own to tell.

3. I’ve wondered if Sandor would notice any more ‘acceptance’ from Sansa, when they meet and I’ve decided that the plentiful “look at me” moments he demands are in the past. I think he’ll notice. He seems to have a sixth ‘Sansa’ sense, (for instance, his callous ‘remember the dance he did’ comment about Ned was, in fact, similar to how she remembered it when thinking of it previously), so I think he will do the double, triple take at this new sense of acceptance from her.

4. What with GRRM’s recent comments about

Jeyne Westerling in the prologue of TWoW, I think it’s possible that Jeyne ends up on the QI and that she will be the woman who I think has been foreshadowed will die there. If that is the case, then Sandor would be present for the prologue chapter. Big wish on my part.

5. The changes I would expect to see in Sandor would be more respect for life (all that burying has to have some purpose/effect) and an initial plan of some sort which he did not have (reclaim Clegane Keep?, take part in the plan of whoever the Elder Brother really is?, look for Arya or Sansa?). Sandor’s character needs to come into his ‘own’ – he needs to fully embody the concept of his name which he now seems to ‘own’ more than “the Hound”, which has become a name others' own, while character’s like Jaime begin to call him “Sandor.” In Armageddon Rag, GRRM calls out the meaning of “Alexander” – protector of man. And that reference, that theme, becomes important in the end. Sandor Clegane needs to become a protector of men. He has been so far, but not successfully. Otherwise, GRRM would have chosen a different name for the character, and not a near match of the lead character (Sander) in the book he wrote right before GoT – the one that flopped financially and led him to Hollywood before coming back to writing. Building to a successful protector of man would be a critical part of his character development and a part of the climax of his role in the story, in my opinion.

6. The Hound, to me, is the “truth” of the novels. Sometimes he’s aware of his truths, “sharp steel and strong arms”, and sometimes he’s not, “your uncle’s bloody wedding.” It’s funny that when most of the main characters step out in their false identities in AFfC/ADwD, the “truth” of the novels has gone missing. It’s been a fascination of mine that when the Hound says to Sansa, “a siege, a burning tower, an enemy with a torch. One fool asked if it was dragonsbreath”, that he may have unknowingly identified each of his turning points in the novels – a siege (Blackwater) and an enemy with a torch (Beric and his flaming sword) – may have been alluded to by the Hound back in GoT. Are the burning tower or dragonsbreath coming some day?

2. Yeah, I like this, time for Sansa to tell her side to Sandor.

3. Sansa, having grown and matured, will impress him no doubt.

4. Do you mind if I ask about what you see as foreshadowed for a woman dieing on the QI? That sounds intriguing.

5. He's been the protector of the Stark girls, does that count? And yes, time to give up the 'sworn sword' gig, stop being a 'butcher' and use those fighting skills for the good.

6. Dragonsbreath, possibly, but like Le Cygne, I to feel fire-wise it's time to move on.

~~~snip~~~

Needle was taken from her. Not voluntarily, but Needle finds his way back to her. But now it is her turn. She put Needle away a bit. It is up to her to go to Needle this time and return the favor.

~~~snip~~~

Needle was the least that could be done for Arya. Lyanna and Jon made it happen, Ned provided the tools to use it.

"Needle was Jon Snow's smile." Really says it all.

[OldGimletEye]

I think Arya is heading back to Westeros sooner rather than later. I don't get the impression she's going to stay in Braavos much longer. Easy enough to get her face back, she got it back in between jobs last time.

Do you think news of Jon's assassination will cause Arya to return to Westeros?

[Booknerd2]

Agree absolutely, the drinking led to the Hound "not on his game," definitely.

As for the QI and whether Sandor is still there – I flip flop on this too. I think that the women’s cottages come into play there and it was such a big deal that Pod not stay with Brienne in one. Therefore, a woman needs to come to stay there again, imo. The whole place has gotten way too much description. What was with the gravedigger serving food? Just so the reader sees the limp again? What about the high harp that was there that someone was playing? Songs? Music? Who plays the high harp in the series? Sansa. What about the renowned cider? The brothers go out and sell that at markets. So if Sandor leaves, I’m going with it’s brief and he comes back and there’s some kind of goings on there and then he leaves for good.

The gravedigger throwing dirt – Septon Meribald "could have gotten a mouthful" we’re told. Having grave dirt thrown on you by a gravedigger is not a good omen, I’d say.

Stranger being there is good news. His spirits we’ve addressed. But the Elder Brother says that he was looking for his horse when he got his ‘fatal’ injury. He needed the horse to be a knight. Sandor still has his despite all that must have taken to get him there. The EB says, “The Smith gave men horses to help them in their labors.” Sandor needs Stranger to help him in his ‘labor’ and to continue being a knight, er, not-a-ser, 'knight.'

Agree that the Hound was looking out for Sansa in KL. He is concerned and when they are together, even in court settings, he goes out of his way to notice or help or just wave from the back of the box. And my sincere interest in Sandor Clegane came at the moment of the very first Sansa description of "almost gently." That stood out for me, I marked it down in my head because that is a description for a 'romantic lead character'; then she uses it over and over.

Ah, Le Cygne, no fire. I want it to be the case, but I am fascinated by it and wonder about it. And true, the big turning point was the fight and almost dying and there was no fire there, just hot, boiling wine. However, Sansa knowing about his burning by Gregor and not revealing this secret begs to have some future impact on the story. Perhaps Sansa saves Sandor later on. At a minimum, it seems very likely that she will defend him to someone in TWoW.

Ok, so much great stuff.

Yeah, the women’s cottages, this makes two people, including you that pointed it out to me. I never took note. I wondered when I read. All right already, Brienne is sequestered separately, why is it being discussed for so much page time? Then I let it drop. When you have a chance, if you would like to get into this, that would be great. Because I read your other post, and that was so new to me. I never thought of that. Another poster asked too.

“Therefore, a woman needs to come to stay there again, imo.” That was awesome. We’ve been cracking a lot of jokes about Jacket Cigar, er, Jaqen, so I just had to be silly and point this out. I saw “ a woman” and thought of how he talks. LOL! Oh, man, I'll never refer to him as Jaqen again due to habit now.

Ok, your post is awesome. I gave thought to the brothers coming off the isle and selling their wares. But I only considered it as a means to an end of maybe acquiring news and bringing it back to the isle, in which if may offer the opportunity for Sandor to hear something, and it makes him want to leave. You know, why not? He may be getting like Stranger. This man is not used to being cooped up. Maybe to get some “air” or to go about duties or whatever, who is to say that he won’t go supervised or whatever by the brothers to get out an about to the market, and then observes or hears something himself and wants to jet. Face covered though, we don’t know if EB could help with the burns.

Also, on the isle, If he is just being harbored. Who's to say that he can’t talk on the isle if he is only posing but not a true novice. Who really knows yet?

I totally left out Meribald and the mouthful of dirt. Thanks for bringing that up. No, it doesn’t sound good, right?

Love what you said about Stranger and being a knight. Yeah, Stranger is wearing the pants right now. Uh, because someone has a gown on and it has to go. LOL!

Totally right about the “gently.” And those “not ungently’s” are pretty great too.

[ARYa_Nym]

On Willow Heddle I don't think she's a look alike or that there's proof she's like Arya. Brienne has never met Arya herself so she's going off of what Catelyn told her. She got the impression from Catelyn that Arya was unattractive so she sees a homely girl with brown hair and thinks yes that could be Arya. Willow doesn't look like Arya anymore than Jeyne Poole does and there's no proof personality wise that they are similar.

To a lesser extent I say the same about those thinking that Arya could be the Hound's son or daughter. Her face was covered in dirt. A stranger also described her as a ragged looking boy which is somewhat similar to Sam describing her as a creature. They can't see her actual face under all that so they can think that the two look related without it actually being true.

As for Jon I don't see the textual point. I mean so she hears about Jon's assassination and rushes off to do what exactly? I really would hope that GRRM stops that travelogue thing where she tries to get to places only to be too late and unsuccessful. Jon's attackers will likely be dealt with already at the scene. She's not needed there. A lot of her training is not useful at the Wall either. I think she may go there eventually but not until sometime in ADoS.

Jon's death could have the opposite effect too. Her last familial link so she stays to do her own thing. This could coincide with as I said Jon saying the longer you hide the sterner the penance and Ned saying the lone wolf and Arya calling herself that in AFFC.

I don't think she's rushing off to Westeros. She was told to learn other languages in ADWD. I doubt he would put that in there for no purpose especially since she used one of them in the same book so I see her going to other Free Cities before she gets to Westeros. This could be where a lot of PoVs meet up actually. When Victarion, Dany, and Tyrion are all trying to get back to Westeros.

Plus, it might not even come up like Theon not being on her list especially if Jon bounces back quickly which is possible. She never learns or asks about who "killed" Bran and Rickon. She still does not know about the Boltons taking over the North.

[Booknerd2]

Very good and interesting post. If you wouldn't mind though, I'd like a clarification. You wrote that Jon will be eventually leaving the North. What did you mean exactly? What do you see him doing?

Hey Gimlet!

Thank you so much! I am going to try and clarify. This will not be one of my finest hours. Let me start out by saying. I don’t know. LOL! This is going to be my weakest post, or really up there.

From that post you mentioned. Which I could have been a bit clearer, but I can’t, but I would if I could. I said I have an idea for Arya’s A-Z, beginning to end. But the B & Y, I don’t know.

I flip-flop all the time.

Not with certain critical things. She will have and see again, Needle, Nymeria, Gendry, Jon, Hot Pie (fingers crossed, I love him, same with JAqen being a maybe) and she will leave FM.

Everything else is up in the air to different degrees depending on the question.

My thing is that Arya is not going North until later and Jon, well, he is going to maybe be there a bit, but I think events are going to compel that he leaves. For safety, to do something, to meet someone, I have no clue, but something. But he will go back. I am not sure it is safe for him there after what just happened. But I don't know where he would go either. This just has to play out when he, er, wakes up.

I wonder too if he is “out” for a reason temporarily right now. Some literary convenience. That Stannis, Bolton, Mance, Frey, Manderly, Mel, and the 100 other people and things that are going on right now, I could be terribly wrong, but I think it is going to go on anyway while he is out and then recovers. I don’t know how the hell that is going to play out. And believe me, I know my limits. I have clearer ideas on Arya, Gendry, Sandor, some others, etc. Jon is not my forte. Martin is a brilliant writer. Jon is so incapacitated right now, he just got the Caesar Senate treatment, everybody is breathing down his neck, and I am truly worried about Ghost. And I don’t trust Mel.

It may be that the North, for good or bad, plays out, and he has to leave having played a minimal part because of just what happened to him. Then he goes back to really crack some skulls and do what he was meant to do.

I don’t see. Hey, just got assassinated. Ok, I am ready to go in the North. I could be wrong. That’s a problem for me. But it may be, up and at 'em, at the ice cell hospital, and he has no choice but to dive in and deal with the North stuff.

A lot depends too on the Wall, Sam, the whole Dany, Tyrion, Victarion stuff, the Riverlands, KL, and what happens with that too. What order, what happens where, etc…So much is going on in separate areas or microcosms. And what happens with the Others and WW. It also depends how he is revived, how himself he is afterward, and how that big reveal thing pans out. He has like Hydra issues. Which head does he tackle first? I don’t know.

Let us say, I’m not sure, but I have a bad feeling if he stays in the North too long. He can always go back. He will have to when other things pick up, but he might have to go elsewhere depending.

His hand might be forced. And I can’t see him in the North from now until the complete end of the series without ever going South either. But that might be my weakness.

Unless this is what happens: Each Stark is more effective in a certain area in Westeros story wise and don't stray. For a guess, He, Bran, Rickon with help from their Justic League members and others, lol, tackle that area; the North.

And Arya and Sansa tackle more Vale, Riverlands, Kl, in very general. And they have people willing to help them too. Gendry and Sandor certainly are, and the Webbers.

Again, total feels and speculation. Jon is so not my area.

Now, the crux of the Riverlands Web. It looks like Uncat, Jaime, Brienne, Gendry, Hot Pie, BWB, the Tullys, maybe Sandor, and so many other characters are all converging in the Riverlands area. Soemthing makes me feel, because right now, you have a large group of people that have the same agendas, yet with some mentioned they have huge old settles to score, things pending with each other, and I see some big clashes coming, and some teaming up too.

It is going to be the hunger games. So will team up willingly, grudgingly, or try to stop each other from certain things.

The orphanage is there, so many things are happening and have in the Riverlands, I am thinking Arya goes there first. I don’t see the North right after her return from Braavos. If not the Riverlands, where else? I am not sure. KL would be a second choice.

Is it me, but with so much about to go down, isn’t the upcoming time about ripe for at least one Stark to show up in this area? Or at least some time in book 6? Everybody, all they talk about, all the Webbers, in the last three books or more is "Where is Arya?" "Where is Sansa?" It might be time that a bone is thrown one does show up.

And it is not going to be Bran or Rickon, I think Not Jon? Sansa is still busy elsewhere too. I think it is Arya.

Please forgive me. I hope this is somewhat clear. I change my mind day to day truly with Jon and Arya and what exactly comes next.

[Le Cygne]

Do you think news of Jon's assassination will cause Arya to return to Westeros?

That's a good point, that could very well be. They'd go to the top o' the revenge list.

This is the penultimate book just ahead, all the things that have been building over the course of the first five books are coming into play now. He's got Jon and Arya thinking about each other and over again, and then the developments in the last book (and the next).

Quotesies:

Jon messed up her hair. "I will miss you, little sister."...

She wanted Jon to muss up her hair and call her "little sister" and finish her sentences with her...

"Most nights it's my father, but sometimes it's Robb instead, or my little sister Arya, or my uncle."...

She would have given anything if Jon had been here to call her "little sister" and muss her hair...

She wished somehow they could come to the Wall before Winterfell, so Jon might muss up her hair and call her "little sister."...

Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya...

"He used to muss my hair and call me 'little sister.'" Arya missed Jon most of all...

She wondered if he would still call her "little sister."...

"The pointy end." Jon had told his little sister something like that once, he remembered...

Jon will want me, even if no one else does. He'll call me "little sister" and muss my hair...

Needle was Jon Snow's smile. He used to mess my hair and call me "little sister," she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes...

In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her...

"He's to marry Arya Stark. My little sister." Jon could almost see her in that moment, long-faced and gawky, all knobby knees and sharp elbows, with her dirty face and tangled hair...

"You wanted a way to save your little sister and still hold fast to the honor that means so much to you, to the vows you swore before your wooden god."...

And Arya too, my little sister, wherever she might be. I pray you, let Mance find her and bring her safe to me...

"That's good." Jon felt fifteen years old again. Little sister. He rose and donned his cloak...

The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart...

Did he ever find you, little sister?... Bring her home, Mance. I saved your son from Melisandre, and now I am about to save four thousand of your free folk. You owe me this one little girl.

[Booknerd2]

So, to backtrack a little bit: booknerd, this one's for you: Michelle Fairley and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau comment on Jacket Cigar. Listen right up to the end, to get the pronunciation right (it starts at 6:39, in case the bookmark doesn't work).

Thanks so much! It was posted somewhere else too but I didn’t get to hear it. It is so funny.

He is so funny, they both are. And did he say “Oh…oh,dear…” when it started? Hilarious! They need them for more commentary.

He did a nice replication of the voice. LOL! And they are right. The eyes were strong and terrific for the part and what we know of in the book. Er, and the voice and accent.

I love her laugh. I’ve seen it in another interview and it is infectious. It made me laugh.

He was excellent and really brought him to life off the pages.

But the both of them are so funny. And honest. And they totally called it out. The same things many observed and that he was so good in this, it draws you in. I can’t count the amount of times people bring up the “lovely girl" and other stuff, and it does't sound corny, it just worked, and worked for the character.

Er, affirmative. It was, er, effective. Great Job! LOL! That characterization not done right, could have fell flat so fast, but it was spot on.

I always laugh in one episode when Arya tells Gendry she is looking for Jacket Cigar.

“You need him? Why?” And the suspicious face and the quick expression change was so funny! Gendry is so protective of her and sadly he trusts nobody. But he was smart enough to be cautious of someone they didn’t know, and maybe sensed who they were dealing with is not an ordinary person. Like he had radar for her getting in over her head.

[Booknerd2]

Love the ear reference!

It is funny. Stranger has tried ripping at faces before. He is trained to bite. But it just so happens it is the ear in a scene, that is not ripped, torn, damage, but taken off completely, I believe.

Where this horse is trying to tell the reader something, and wants to be heard. The acting out was totally on purpose story wise and that is why it appeared.

When I first read it, I still thought Sandor was dead. So I was caught off guard and distracted, as intended. Er, because I was in mourning.

I am thinking: Oh, about to tear, the poor horse. He loves that horse. That horse hates everyone and doesn't listen to anyone but him. Stranger must be upset because Sandor is gone and he hasn't seen him.

I did not get the other stuff and what it really meant on a first read.

Then I am wondering. Ok, why are we in a stable this long discussing a horse? And at that point I was still in the "Brienne book 4 complaint club." I am wondering why so much time is being spent on certain things without payoff, instant gratification.

Then much later after re-reads and the forum, I got it. I never disliked it, but my appreciation of book 4 came later.

And I think there are more excerpts like this too in book 4. That there was a lot going on and that what seemed long and winding, or unclear, will make sense later.

But some we know now makes sense as set up or clues, like QI, the orphanage scene, and other stuff too.

And I think when the next book comes out, we will realize that what some have said are seemingly purposeless or longer Brienne sections, will now make sense, and that is was our fault for not realizing it at that time or not being patient.

[ARYa_Nym]

The orphanage is there, so many things are happening and have in the Riverlands, I am thinking Arya goes there first. I don’t see the North right after her return from Braavos. If not the Riverlands, where else? I am not sure. KL would be a second choice.

Is it me, but with so much about to go down, isn’t the upcoming time about ripe for at least one Stark to show up in this area? Or at least some time in book 6? Everybody, all they talk about, all the Webbers, in the last three books or more is "Where is Arya?" "Where is Sansa?" It might be time that a bone is thrown one does show up.

And it is not going to be Bran or Rickon, I think Not Jon? Sansa is still busy elsewhere too. I think it is Arya.

Please forgive me. I hope this is somewhat clear. I change my mind day to day truly with Jon and Arya and what exactly comes next.

Well, she already was there and she didn't do anything major while there. As I said the only possibility there is mass murdering Freys or killing LS which are two things that are still restricted to the subplot not major plot. Simply going there so she can hang around the same people she did for 2 books does not make her story relevant.

To add we know it's not going to be Bran, Rickon, Sansa, or Jon because they all have their own important relevant story lines. I think the Riverlands helps keep her irrelevant and pointless in comparison to other characters. She should go somewhere else imo and start revealing what the purpose of her character is.

Jamie and Brienne might already be gone from the Riverlands by the time she gets to Westeros. ETA: Plus, I don't see anything that points to her dealing with Jamie and he has to get back to Cersei. He never was on her list even though she had reason to put him on there.

KL has relevant characters and it's where her training can be put to use the most as opposed to other areas in Westeros. It's also where her original scene in AGoT with Varys can come full circle. The parallels b/w them have been getting stronger. There's also dragon references and if she has something to do with the second dance then she has to be where it is occurring.

[Booknerd2]

On Willow Heddle I don't think she's a look alike or that there's proof she's like Arya. Brienne has never met Arya herself so she's going off of what Catelyn told her. She got the impression from Catelyn that Arya was unattractive so she sees a homely girl with brown hair and thinks yes that could be Arya. Willow doesn't look like Arya anymore than Jeyne Poole does and there's no proof personality wise that they are similar.

To a lesser extent I say the same about those thinking that Arya could be the Hound's son or daughter. Her face was covered in dirt. A stranger also described her as a ragged looking boy which is somewhat similar to Sam describing her as a creature. They can't see her actual face under all that so they can think that the two look related without it actually being true.

(snip)

I gotcha. I see where you are coming from with Heddle. I do. But I am coming from somewhere else. What meant more to me, was that Gendry was left on a cliffhanger where she was taken by the Hound after Gendry just argued with her in book 3. Obviously the orphanage is about trying to find her. Helping kids too, sure, but…

And with Heddle, it is not as much about resemblance to Arya, literally, so much as it is about the author throwing out of seemingly nowhere a reference to Arya in the only quick cameo appearance in book 4 Gendry has made since book 3, from Brienne, who has no clue about Arya. And he is not in five either. It is the pointing it out that matters, and set off a red alert for me. Not the looks. That it comes out of nowhwere. Briene always says she is looking for Sansa more, and then turns around and does an Arya internal/verbal photo bomb out of thin air, in a Gendry cameo appearance moment. It is like the needle scratching the record.

But I know from your position in posts that you and I don’t agree on this. I think Gendry and Arya meet again, so that would stand out for me. Some other posters share that belief too. Some don't. Totally fine. People should have their opinion and I respect that. I also think he is upset she was taken, he was "off" in that chapter, and I might see a future down the road for them.

And that’s okay. That’s my opinion, and I can agree to disagree.

When I read that for the first time, and taking in all I mentioned above...

Truthfully, I face-palmed and shut the book. I was like “Oh, come on. It is so blatant. I can’t believe this.” It hit me the moment I read it. I was blindsided by the Brienne thought of Arya. There was no place for it. On RR, I did what is probably my longest essay ever over there, “The Benchwarmers," just on that one chapter alone.

I agree for Arya. No North yet. But there is no way I am going to rule it out or say I am sure.There is nothing she can do to help Jon and might get captured, hurt, killed whatever Too much going on up there, but maybe she will go later. Maybe the timing isn’t right and she has a lot on her plate now too. And yeah, that pattern worked for awhile, she seems to get everywhere late. And it has mostly saved her life, but sometimes she missed out on stuff too. Mostly the former though. Plus, I am going to say, that right now she is still “no one.” Not in any position to help Jon even if she wanted too. She has some stuff going right now that I don’t see how she could immediately up and leave to go anywhere. She has a lot hanging over her head right now too. She will bounce the FM I believe, not immediately from where she is, but I think the inevitable is very soon. A bit more time…get Needle…go.

[Hrafntýr]

Re: Starks in the Riverlands: Personally, I think that the two likeliest are Bran and (less likely, but still plausible) Sansa. Bran won't be there in person, but we haven't talked much, or not in a long time, about the Isle of Faces sitting right there in the middle of things, in the Gods Eye. Surely that place has been set up for something significant, and Bran is set up to see through the eyes of the gods, as the eyes of the gods.

I speculated in the last thread about the possibility that the Ironborn might make their appearance in the Riverlands as well, given that the Ironborn used to be Kings of the Isles and Rivers, and the special history of Harren the Black, which Euron might be set up to repeat and revise, this time, he hopes, with dragons on his side. What makes this especially intriguing is the way that Euron's personal sigil connects him to the old gods and maybe even the Gods Eye and/or Bloodraven: he's got crows and he's got the single (red) eye. Although part of me thinks that Euron wants to get his butt to the Iron Throne, part of me thinks that there's no character better suited to the creepiness and magical significance of Harrenhal. And Harrenhal is right there on the Gods Eye, where Bran might be able to go in a thought.

But Harrenhal could also be possible as a destination for Sansa, in Littlefinger decides to do something with his lordship there. I don't actually think this very likely, I think it's more likely that there will be a Vale/North thing going on with Sansa, but there was that cool bat imagery used for Sansa, and she's got some Whent mixed in with her Stark.

I think I agree with ARYa_Nym that it wouldn't make a lot of sense for Arya to wander the Riverlands yet again, but I'm also among those who thinks Arya will meet up with Gendry again. Even if she just passes through the Riverlands, she'll hit the Crossroads. But I'm not sure how much longer Gendry will stick to his post at the Crossroads. His frustration is evident. So, if they meet again (and I think they will!) it might not be in the Riverlands at all.

[LongRider]

~~~snip~~~

I speculated in the last thread about the possibility that the Ironborn might make their appearance in the Riverlands as well, given that the Ironborn used to be Kings of the Isles and Rivers, and the special history of Harren the Black, which Euron might be set up to repeat and revise, this time, he hopes, with dragons on his side. What makes this especially intriguing is the way that Euron's personal sigil connects him to the old gods and maybe even the Gods Eye and/or Bloodraven: he's got crows and he's got the single (red) eye. Although part of me thinks that Euron wants to get his butt to the Iron Throne, part of me thinks that there's no character better suited to the creepiness and magical significance of Harrenhal. And Harrenhal is right there on the Gods Eye, where Bran might be able to go in a thought.

~~~~snap~~~~

And who knows Harrenhal inside and out? Arya does.

[LongRider]

~~~snip~~

Where this horse is trying to tell the reader something, and wants to be heard. The acting out was totally on purpose story wise and that is why it appeared.

~~~snap~~~

This is so funny to me: Stranger:

"No! You ain't taking my nuts and me the big fella, we're ready to leave!"

"What you ain't listening?"

"Guess you don't need this then."

Bam!

Chews up and spits out, one ear.

[Le Cygne]

And with Heddle, it is not as much about resemblance to Arya, literally, so much as it is about the author throwing out of seemingly nowhere a reference to Arya in the only quick cameo appearance in book 4 Gendry has made since book 3, from Brienne, who has no clue about Arya. And he is not in five either. It is the pointing it out that matters, and set off a red alert for me. Not the looks. That it comes out of nowhwere. Briene always says she is looking for Sansa more, and then turns around and does an Arya internal/verbal photo bomb out of thin air, in a Gendry cameo appearance moment. It is like the needle scratching the record.

I really like this. Verbal photobomb! :lol: He did just drop that in there suddenly in the middle of Gendry's big chapter. Brienne thinking (about Gendry), I have to tell you who you are... Brienne thinking (about Arya), I wonder if that could be her?

The girl was too young and too plain to be Sansa Stark, but she was of the right age to be the younger sister, and even Lady Catelyn had said that Arya lacked her sister’s beauty. Brown hair, brown eyes, skinny... could it be?

And she brings up Lady Catelyn, and perhaps the reason Gendry is there in the first place, as well as all the orphans... LSH is looking for Arya. And this also ties Gendry back to Arya in the minds of the readers. And he's very different from the way he used to be, when he was with her. And we have to think reflect upon this, and wonder why.

I think you are exactly right, and it's a great observation.

Also, this gives perhaps more meaning to Brienne's the Hound has Sansa verbal photobomb (!) in Jaime's last chapter (which of course could also be a lie). Brienne thought Sandor was dead, and she had started referring to Lem as the Hound in her last chapter in AFFC. But LSH is looking for Sansa, too. And this also ties Sandor back to Sansa in the minds of the readers.

These verbal photobombs are associating characters together, he wants you to remember.

[Booknerd2]

Re: Starks in the Riverlands: Personally, I think that the two likeliest are Bran and (less likely, but still plausible) Sansa. Bran won't be there in person, but we haven't talked much, or not in a long time, about the Isle of Faces sitting right there in the middle of things, in the Gods Eye. Surely that place has been set up for something significant, and Bran is set up to see through the eyes of the gods, as the eyes of the gods.

I speculated in the last thread about the possibility that the Ironborn might make their appearance in the Riverlands as well, given that the Ironborn used to be Kings of the Isles and Rivers, and the special history of Harren the Black, which Euron might be set up to repeat and revise, this time, he hopes, with dragons on his side. What makes this especially intriguing is the way that Euron's personal sigil connects him to the old gods and maybe even the Gods Eye and/or Bloodraven: he's got crows and he's got the single (red) eye. Although part of me thinks that Euron wants to get his butt to the Iron Throne, part of me thinks that there's no character better suited to the creepiness and magical significance of Harrenhal. And Harrenhal is right there on the Gods Eye, where Bran might be able to go in a thought.

But Harrenhal could also be possible as a destination for Sansa, in Littlefinger decides to do something with his lordship there. I don't actually think this very likely, I think it's more likely that there will be a Vale/North thing going on with Sansa, but there was that cool bat imagery used for Sansa, and she's got some Whent mixed in with her Stark.

I think I agree with ARYa_Nym that it wouldn't make a lot of sense for Arya to wander the Riverlands yet again, but I'm also among those who thinks Arya will meet up with Gendry again. Even if she just passes through the Riverlands, she'll hit the Crossroads. But I'm not sure how much longer Gendry will stick to his post at the Crossroads. His frustration is evident. So, if they meet again (and I think they will!) it might not be in the Riverlands at all.

Wonderful post. Keep 'em coming. I have my few people I can discuss comfortably and the rest hit roadblocks. Interesting about Bran and Euron. Totally not my area so I am totally grateful to you for making those points.

I flip flop all the time about what is more likely for some characters to do next.

I never thought of Sansa. But when Arya was at Harrenhal, it hit me that, man, she is a Whent. And I thought of Minisa.

And the last paragraph. I am convinced they are going to meet again, oh, for many reasons. But the details is where I flip flop too.

But I do think, so much was made of LS, Gendry, and BWB looking for her, Brienne, Jon, the Hound lost her too. Somebody(s) has to come across her. Or all that build up for nothing? The odds seem more likely a Riverlands Webber. Oh, she will meet with Jon one day too, but there are more of them than Jon. I would die if she goes back and goes to the Inn of the Kneeling Man and Hot Pie sees her. That would be a longshot, but I would like it. I could mean nothing, but Hot Pie had a nice role on the show, and makes another appearance later. He assists Brienne and Pod with info. Tv show or a hint? And it could just be too that Ben is so damn funny, they had him back.

[Booknerd2]

This is so funny to me: Stranger:

"No! You ain't taking my nuts and me the big fella, we're ready to leave!"

"What you ain't listening?"

"Guess you don't need this then."

Bam!

Chews up and spits out, one ear.

Love this!

That is how I feel too.

I also thought later of how in old school movies... When someone is not obeying, listening, or paying attention…the old school marm/.master, or an adult, grabs the ear and twists it, and then frogmarches them to make a point.

[Karmarni]

I really like this. Verbal photobomb! :lol: He did just drop that in there suddenly in the middle of Gendry's big chapter. Brienne thinking (about Gendry), I have to tell you who you are... Brienne thinking (about Arya), I wonder if that could be her?

And she brings up Lady Catelyn, and perhaps the reason Gendry is there in the first place, as well as all the orphans... LSH is looking for Arya. And this also ties Gendry back to Arya in the minds of the readers. And he's very different from the way he used to be, when he was with her. And we have to think reflect upon this, and wonder why.

I think you are exactly right, and it's a great observation.

Also, this gives perhaps more meaning to Brienne's the Hound has Sansa verbal photobomb (!) in Jaime's last chapter (which of course could also be a lie). Brienne thought Sandor was dead, and she had started referring to Lem as the Hound in her last chapter in AFFC. But LSH is looking for Sansa, too. And this also ties Sandor back to Sansa in the minds of the readers.

These verbal photobombs are associating characters together, he wants you to remember.

In what way do you see Gendry as "very different from the way he used to be" when he was with Arya? I admit, I don't I know Gendry as well as others and I'm curious.

Otherwise, agree that the verbal photobombs (great term!) are keeping these characters together for the reader.

[Booknerd2]

I really like this. Verbal photobomb! :lol: He did just drop that in there suddenly in the middle of Gendry's big chapter. Brienne thinking (about Gendry), I have to tell you who you are... Brienne thinking (about Arya), I wonder if that could be her?

And she brings up Lady Catelyn, and perhaps the reason Gendry is there in the first place, as well as all the orphans... LSH is looking for Arya. And this also ties Gendry back to Arya in the minds of the readers. And he's very different from the way he used to be, when he was with her. And we have to think reflect upon this, and wonder why.

I think you are exactly right, and it's a great observation.

Also, this gives perhaps more meaning to Brienne's the Hound has Sansa verbal photobomb (!) in Jaime's last chapter (which of course could also be a lie). Brienne thought Sandor was dead, and she had started referring to Lem as the Hound in her last chapter in AFFC. But LSH is looking for Sansa, too. And this also ties Sandor back to Sansa in the minds of the readers.

These verbal photobombs are associating characters together, he wants you to remember.

Yeah, verbal photobomb... it works! It is the only thing I could think up to have a nice concise word or two to describe it when it happens in the book. We have to use it when other instances come up. And that is a perfect example you used with Jaime and Brienne and the Sandor verbal photobomb. And these are two cases just with the Riverlands Webbers.

Exactly. You said it perfectly.

But I have another one. I will explain at the end.

I call it the “magician’s trick.” So we have this and verbal photobomb. lol!

Brienne barely brings up Arya in her search, it is always and consistently Sansa more. So her Arya comment came out of left field.

So, we have Brienne making allusions to both Gendry and Arya, and pondering, tinkering with who they are and both of their identities and what they look like in the same breaths.

I am going to rip it apart and look at it again in an upcoming post question: The Orphanage: The Arya Stark Check Points. Oh, I will be cracking Annie jokes too.

I still have to post some sample upcoming topic post questions I was kicking around as promised. Sorry guys, I forgot.

Also, it has been well over a year, and I think it would be a good idea, and I mentioned it before, to take a look again at that Benchwarmer essay, so I can revisit it. There was some stuff in there, I want to see again. I'll check it out.

As for the "magician's trick."

Really it is when he distracts us. Case in point: Gendry and Brienne.

We were meant to be distracted again. Brienne verbalizes the search for Sansa more with everyone else she usually asks and encounters, so later, well after I read that book, the orphanage had to be pointed out to me. I was so focused on other stuff going on in that chapter. My attention was drawn to that, so that I was literally staring at what was going on with the orphanage, what it really meant, right in the face, and whoosh….went right over my head. I did not get it or pick up on the orphanage. More concerned with Brienne, Gendry, and other stuff.

It was given to us, what really he is doing there, what the BWB is doing, and what is going on. I never got it. What I was being told or shown. Up until it was pointed out to me, I felt for Arya thinking. Man, even Brienne, it seems the search is more focused just on Sansa. I could kick myself now!

It was a literary magician trick.

It is like: Look at this( right hand -Brienne/Sansa ref.) but really I am doing and showing this (left hand - orphanage purpose) with my other hand. And I Author, am gonna move so quick you're not going to see this, unless you work it out.

I love it... his sleight of hand moves.

Same thing with Stranger and how the QI is telling us one thing, and the horse is telling us an entirely different story. The kicking, not wanting gelding, the ear. And there is also the Author telling us early on and throughout the series, to remember the relationship between characters and their animal avatars.

It is an absolutely wonderful, brilliant literary technique.

[Le Cygne]

My attention was drawn to that, so that I was literally staring at what was going on with the orphanage, what it really meant, right in the face, and whoosh….went right over my head. I did not get it or pick up on the orphanage. More concerned with Brienne, Gendry, and other stuff.

It was given to us, what really he is doing there, what the BWB is doing, and what is going on. I never got it. What I was being told or shown. Up until it was pointed out to me, I felt for Arya thinking. Man, even Brienne, it seems the search is more focused just on Sansa. I could kick myself now!

It was a literary magician trick.

Oh yeah, it slipped by me, too. What's the deal with all the kids? And then you realize. That's what the deal is.