The Riverlands Web V.2

[Le Cygne]

Booknerd2 would be better to answer that one, but he's very much changed. The life has gone out of him. We are seeing the way Brienne describes him, she doesn't know him and is comparing him to Renly, but we're comparing him to when he was with Arya, and in both cases, the difference stands out. There was always humor back then, they were laughing, teasing, just this scene here, says a lot:

Gendry put the hammer down and looked at her. “You look different now. Like a proper little girl.”

“I look like an oak tree, with all these stupid acorns.”

“Nice, though. A nice oak tree.” He stepped closer, and sniffed at her. “You even smell nice for a change.”

“You don’t. You stink.” Arya shoved him back against the anvil and made to run, but Gendry caught her arm. She stuck a foot between his legs and tripped him, but he yanked her down with him, and they rolled across the floor of the smithy. He was very strong, but she was quicker. Every time he tried to hold her still she wriggled free and punched him. Gendry only laughed at the blows, which made her mad. He finally caught both her wrists in one hand and started to tickle her with the other, so Arya slammed her knee between his legs, and wrenched free. Both of them were covered in dirt, and one sleeve was torn on her stupid acorn dress. “I bet I don’t look so nice now,” she shouted.

And then they walk in on the forest lass song (I can only imagine how long GRRM labored over that), and they tease them, and Arya says, "I started it"! :lol:

I also like the part where he follows her out, he sees she's upset (they were talking about Lady Catelyn releasing Jaime, and Arya didn't understand)...

[Karmarni]

Re: Starks in the Riverlands: Personally, I think that the two likeliest are Bran and (less likely, but still plausible) Sansa. Bran won't be there in person, but we haven't talked much, or not in a long time, about the Isle of Faces sitting right there in the middle of things, in the Gods Eye. Surely that place has been set up for something significant, and Bran is set up to see through the eyes of the gods, as the eyes of the gods.

I speculated in the last thread about the possibility that the Ironborn might make their appearance in the Riverlands as well, given that the Ironborn used to be Kings of the Isles and Rivers, and the special history of Harren the Black, which Euron might be set up to repeat and revise, this time, he hopes, with dragons on his side. What makes this especially intriguing is the way that Euron's personal sigil connects him to the old gods and maybe even the Gods Eye and/or Bloodraven: he's got crows and he's got the single (red) eye. Although part of me thinks that Euron wants to get his butt to the Iron Throne, part of me thinks that there's no character better suited to the creepiness and magical significance of Harrenhal. And Harrenhal is right there on the Gods Eye, where Bran might be able to go in a thought.

But Harrenhal could also be possible as a destination for Sansa, in Littlefinger decides to do something with his lordship there. I don't actually think this very likely, I think it's more likely that there will be a Vale/North thing going on with Sansa, but there was that cool bat imagery used for Sansa, and she's got some Whent mixed in with her Stark.

Agree that the God's Eye will be important. Howland Reed went there and learned what? Bran is likely to have a confluence of his powers merging here when he comes fully capable with them.

Harrenhal is currently held by the Holy Hundred and Jaime does not seem impressed with their capabilities and calls them the "Holy Eighty-Six." Later he says, "They pray well, I suppose, but can they fight?" He also thinks, "Or else the Stranger will turn up for the whole holy lot of you." Bonifer Hasty says in response to Jaime's question of if he can hold Harrenhal, "I anticipate no difficulty."

Now, in my ASOIAF playbook, when a character says something like that, I think, "Oh, there you go, setting yourself up for a fall. Of course, you'll have difficulty."

Jaime now anticipates problems with Lancel holding Darry (obviously he won't), while Hasty's Holy Eighty-Six are going to have trouble with Harrenhal. The only question is, who's going to stir up the trouble? In addition, in The Rogue Prince,

Daemon and Aemond Targaryen do the dragonback duel to their deaths.

.

[Booknerd2]

Booknerd2 would be better to answer that one, but he's very much changed. The life has gone out of him. We are seeing the way Brienne describes him, she doesn't know him and is comparing him to Renly, but we're comparing him to when he was with Arya, and in both cases, the difference stands out. There was always humor back then, they were laughing, teasing, just this scene here, says a lot:

And then they walk in on the forest lass song (I can only imagine how long GRRM labored over that), and they tease them, and Arya says, "I started it"! :lol:

I also like the part where he follows her out, he sees she's upset (they were talking about Lady Catelyn releasing Jaime, and Arya didn't understand)...

This is it. The bold. That was a turning point for him; her getting taken.

It was a huge blow. He seemed to deal with everything before that and not change. He was the pick yourself up and move on guy. He is sort of doing that, but the gusto is absent.

And that is the important thing. He is telling us, the Author, like an instructional manual.

You are supposed to be comparing him with Arya and post-Arya. Take notes.

Ok, give me a bit of time, guys. I knew it was coming and planned to do it today. To look at my the Benchwarmer. Because that was my rant on what the heck happened to him. But it has been so long, I need to revisit it, tweak it, and make it shorter for this thread.

Let me check my notes and I'll come back with how I took it…and how upsetting it was.

[Karmarni]

4. Do you mind if I ask about what you see as foreshadowed for a woman dieing on the QI? That sounds intriguing.

It's just this small instance in the Elder Brother's statement about the gravedigger:

"Too many corpses, these days." The Elder Brother sighed. "Our gravedigger knows no rest." Rivermen, westermen, northmen, all wash up here. Knights and knaves alike. We bury them side by side, Stark and Lannister, Blackwood and Bracken, Frey and Darry. That is the duty the river asks of us in return for all its gifts, and we do it as best we can. Sometimes we find a woman, though . . . or worse, a little child. Those are the cruelest gifts."

I'm wondering about the woman and the little child. Terrible, yes, but will it actually end up coming true and be someone? Also I've noted the Houses that are mentioned and find that interesting too. Yes, fits with the Wot5K and the riverlands area that these would be the Houses. But is it more than it appears?

[Le Cygne]

I don't think GRRM does matchy matchy, where the same thing happens twice the same way.

Like when Jaime recalls he got the white cloak in Harrenhal:

"Harrenhal was where they gave me the white cloak," he whispered back... "Aerys never let me joust." He laughed again. "He sent me away. But now I'm coming back."

He never got to be a knight, not the way he imagined it would be when he was younger. But then when he comes back again, he is the knight who rescues the maiden (Brienne, the Maid of Tarth, in a pink dress):

"I left something at Harrenhal."

He didn't get the cloak again, but he finished the story. His story.

[Booknerd2]

It's just this small instance in the Elder Brother's statement about the gravedigger:

I'm wondering about the woman and the little child. Terrible, yes, but will it actually end up coming true and be someone? Also I've noted the Houses that are mentioned and find that interesting too. Yes, fits with the Wot5K and the riverlands area that these would be the Houses. But is it more than it appears?

Woman and child.

Sansa and Robin?

[Le Cygne]

Well, that would be really sad. Sansa and Sweetrobin wash up on the QI dead. Here you go, Sandor, be careful what you wish for. I don't even think GRRM would be that cruel.

[Booknerd2]

Well, that would be really sad. Sansa and Sweetrobin wash up on the QI dead. Here you go, Sandor, be careful what you wish for. I don't even think GRRM would be that cruel.

Oh, I didn't mean dead...

I thought about them "arriving" there. I saw "wash up" as come there. And left out the dead part. LOL!

I don't think Sansa dies. She goes to the end. Robin…uh, not as much.

[Le Cygne]

Well, there are those women's quarters! ;) Seems a bit overkill, to describe those in such detail, if just for Brienne's overnight stay. But I have a feeling Sweetrobin may outlive them all. The kid's got spunk.

Think Han Solo: "Never tell me the odds!"

It just seems too predictable if he actually died at this point. Besides, that's what LF wants, so I'm predisposed to want him to live forever. And kill LF would be nice, too. Or help Sansa do it.

[Booknerd2]

In what way do you see Gendry as "very different from the way he used to be" when he was with Arya? I admit, I don't I know Gendry as well as others and I'm curious.

Otherwise, agree that the verbal photobombs (great term!) are keeping these characters together for the reader.

Ok, here we go:

First of all, there are things that are human that can’t be explained. I just felt really weird and got all these vibes reading that scene. I was happy to have Gendry back in a cameo and I did not expect that after Arya is taken by the Hound, and then we never saw Gendry again, because he was out of her arc. He only appears once in book 4, and not five.

It is like when you meet someone and it is great, and then the next time, something changed. It is cold or awkward and weird and you can’t put your finger on it. But a shift occurred before you could realize and then it hits you dead in the face.

A sucker punch, if you will. That is how I felt when we meet him again.

Or really, I can tell you what I said out loud: “What… the… hell… happened… to.. you?”

I read sleepwalker and going throught the motions. Hope that she will turn up, and time is passing and it hasn’t. That the network has been going on for awhile, and info is coming in but…And it is bad without closure. He is just not the same. He was abrasive and douchey to Brienne and he is not really like that. He is someone that has gotten burned bad. Like someone that is grumpy all the time and channel and project it on others. Nobody there seems to mind him, like they know he is like that all the time now.

And it is for a reason that we get no member of BWB that comments on it.

The shock alone of Arya and that he argued with her last is bad. He was going to maybe not continue on with everyone else, and he did suggest that he and Arya go it alone. He tells her pretty much that she is worth her weight in gold. She saved him from Harrenhal and was a big provider of food, companionship, and some fun.

In book 4, the change in him is cringe-inducing. What was it like that moment, the next, the days after….she was taken? I can only imagine. Well, the BWB and LS know.

And I agree that with Acorn hall – Too much time was put into that song, as an aside.

He was jealous of Dayne (know he talks to Brienne like that) pissed at noble ties he doesn’t have due to Ayra, and all the stuff at the Peach. Trying to protect her innocence and walking the talk, not going with Bella. When the old perv bothered Arya, he shot him down quick.

He mourns her and misses her. And the verbal photobomb, at just that moment, when we see him and Brienne…stuck out for me.

He is not doing well. Working steel, minding the orphanage, and he does not have the rapport with the Heddle girls, like he had with Arya. We see in Heddle, a young, tough, take charge energetic girl like Arya was. The comparison is shoved at our faces. He could care less. He doesn’t want a cardboard cut out. I think we are supposed to take note of this fill in. Similar, like her, but it is not her. And telling us. She can not be replaced, for him. What keeps him going is the hope she shows up. He can fight and is strong. They either asked or he volunteered to stay behind and mind the orphanage. He was never the stay behind type on the road with Arya. It is almost like he doesn’t want to miss her in case she turns up.

Some quotes from "Benchwarmers." A year or so later but I feel the same.

“His security blanket/partner on the road, his strength, a piece of him is gone. He was trying to protect his little lady and it went bust. Only the Seven knows what the Hound or someone else did to her. She could even be dead, maybe a horrific death too. And various other scenarios must have entered his mind. And all because he went on a tear, when she already heard family info from Edric that she couldn’t understand or scarcely believe, and she fled right into the hands of a Hound that now knew her identity and also got the shaft when Beric and BWB kept his gold tournament winnings and was pissed.”

I am concerned about this below:

“Has the rumor reached Gendry, Uncat and BWB about (F)arya and the Bolton marriage? That news had to have been on its way by then, right? It should soon? Cause that, I would think, is even worse if he hears she is alive and married to someone else and all the crap that has happened to Winterfell. Never realizing it is fake Arya, of course. And I am sure the Bolton stories of how they like to act out their sigil on victims and friends, has made the rounds. That he literally treats his dogs better to say the least.”

“She ran after they were arguing. He knows he started it, and probably blames himself. He called out after her in the rain, or Arya comments that she believed it was Gendry. And by now maybe he thinks she was with Bolton, given by the Lannisters, and she is married to Ramsey Bolton. Ugh! The guilt he would feel! But can Jaime maybe correct this information and give Uncat and Gendry and BWB peace of mind? Jaime can always crow that see, I fooled Bolton, I have changed and even if I had your daughter I would never do it. See, Brienne and I really want to help you find your girls and keep our oaths."

Or, and we can cover this another time… They do know that Arya left the Hound and it is NOT the girl that was with Ramsay. And they won't need Jaime to tell them this.

“And then, to twist the knife in my heart unintentionally, Brienne has to mention that maybe Willow Heddle, (falls off couch and drops book 4 too) well, she thinks it could be Arya, and there might be a resemblance between her and this girl hanging out with Gendry. Thanks for pointing that out, Sapphires! Oh, and the author too for giving her those lines. Just point out, Author, to show a replacement Arya, maybe his futile attempts, in a way just to get by, like a defense mechanism. That someone like Arya is there, but it is not the same. Let me take out my handkerchief and tissues so I can start bawling for the 50^th time. Gendry could have been written as to be alone at the orphanage, it could have been someone else, other characters, but no, it has to be a girl around the same age, that we know acts like Arya, and that Brienne has to make Arya allusions about. Jesus!!!!”

“And he was horrible. And then a bunch of things stick out in no particular order. He was glowering, refusing to even sit with everybody. Sensitive, when she asked if he was a bastard and she informed him he was a knight. He tells her she has an ugly face. She asks if he is a lord, and he says that he is a smith. The Septon comments that Willow would probably marry Gendry down the road, due to the sorry state of affairs in the region. Sorry, dude, he is taken. Or at least his heart is. Gendry doesn’t want to rent them rooms, he doesn’t want to take or eat their food. And he tells her he is a knight. He tells her that when he is done with making that sword, it is his. Why? It has been months. Why is a sword so imperative now? What makes me still think he is going to wield a hammer when he hears about Robert and his bloodline, or use the sword but still prefer the hammer that he is used to? I guess he figures that knights do have swords, so he should make one just in case. Too funny.”

"I also thought of Gendry seeing what has become of Arya’s mother…damn, and knowing Ned briefly and Arya, and how much she wanted to find her mother, of course, it is so sad. And he knows what happened to Robb and Grey Wind and the whole story. We see Uncat with Robb’s crown as she held it in her hands. Ok, let me run and get some more tissues."

Of course, he is angry and sad.

"He hasn’t left the inn where Arya was last spotted. Does he hope she comes back? Can somehow find her way back to that spot? A search on two fronts: 1. The BWB is actively looking for her 2. Keep the blacksmith buddy at a sort of command central where she last was? Does he hope that she has gotten away like she has in the past and will come back to a place she knows, so he wants to be there in case she does? (If he thinks that, it is very smart, because he knows her, and that she has escaped from impossibly bad situations before, and if anyone can get out of a sticky situation, his tomboy can do it.) I think it shows a bit of faith and hope in her abilities. Or maybe it makes him feel a bit better, something to hold on to?"

"So what is his showing up in book 4 purpose again? To show us he hasn’t forgotten Arya and they are all looking for her. And it is sad to see Gendry with his replacement/ cardboard-cutout Arya, (Willow) trying to cope a bit with what happened. But they are running the place. Nobody said they are friends. It seems like he just puts up with her and vice versa, and they don’t seem to agree on how to go about things, and it is different. It is lacking all the fun and spirit and feistiness that his arguments with Arya had. Storywise, all we really had to see was Brienne get attacked by literally anyone, any crazed whackadoo off the Kingsroad, and then have her brought to Jeyne, or anyone else, where anybody from BWB could have handed her over to Stoneheart."

"He wasn’t necessary, right? Except if you think he is crucial to the Arya future arc. Just another reminder not to forget him after his abrupt exit from book 3 when Arya goes on her trip with the Hound, and her story picks up from there. But the Brienne observation of Willow and Gendry and Arya was another I-can’t-believe-this-blatant-crap head smacker moment. Where I got down on my knees and begged the author not to toy with my emotions nor play with my sore heart for the 1001 time. And we had to see him moping, all emo, defending orphans, helping the sisters out, etc. What a great guy we are told. Again. This time hit with a sledgehammer that we shouldn’t forget this, even a book later, as we were introduced to this theme back in book 1 with Ned and Tobho Mott. He may bitch and act out because he is hurting, but he is still brave and carries on his duties and responsibilities. He still saved Brienne from that nut with the filed teeth!"

Ok, and this is stuff I noted not from that essay a year ago:

Notice Gendry says he is concerned about “Thieves. “Robbers.” Not murderers and rapers. Arya was taken from him. Murder is worse, but not to him. Someone getting stolen from him is the worst that he can fathom.

And though he is pissy, he does save Brienne’s life.

It also sounds like he said “no,” regarding the place really being a true inn. It seems like it really is more of a BWB/hideout/orphanage. Like that is the major purpose now, a headquarters, and their network for the kids.

Brienne calls him “my lord,” one of the first things she says to him upon seeing him. He could care less and doesn’t get it. I think we come back to that later. He may put it together with a bunch of things when he finds out who he is.

“His eyes brimmed with anger and suspicion.” Brienne and Meribald both notice.

Sparrows and others KNOW to bring orphans there to the orphanage.

Willow acts like Arya and throws a fit. He could care less. This girl throws a fit, Arya may get angry but it is not a girly/hissy fit. It was always important and about survival. He knows this. The difference.

I took a look at the symbolism of not eating. It is a sign that someone is upset. And in front of him the Hound was mentioned, and he knows that took her.

And this:

“One day that little girl will make some man a frightful wife,” Ser Hyle observed. “That poor ‘prentice boy, most like.”

Hyles' second allusion to marriage, and with the girl mistaken for Arya with Gendry.

The “I’m a knight making a sword, stuff,” to me, sounds like Sandor looking to enter Robb’s service for Sansa. And now being a knight is important to Gendry.

[ARYa_Nym]

“And then, to twist the knife in my heart unintentionally, Brienne has to mention that maybe Willow Heddle, (falls off couch and drops book 4 too) well, she thinks it could be Arya, and there might be a resemblance between her and this girl hanging out with Gendry. Thanks for pointing that out, Sapphires! Oh, and the author too for giving her those lines. Just point out, Author, to show a replacement Arya, maybe his futile attempts, in a way just to get by, like a defense mechanism. That someone like Arya is there, but it is not the same. Let me take out my handkerchief and tissues so I can start bawling for the 50^th time. Gendry could have been written as to be alone at the orphanage, it could have been someone else, other characters, but no, it has to be a girl around the same age, that we know acts like Arya, and that Brienne has to make Arya allusions about. Jesus!!!!”

“And he was horrible. And then a bunch of things stick out in no particular order. He was glowering, refusing to even sit with everybody. Sensitive, when she asked if he was a bastard and she informed him he was a knight. He tells her she has an ugly face. She asks if he is a lord, and he says that he is a smith. The Septon comments that Willow would probably marry Gendry down the road, due to the sorry state of affairs in the region. Sorry, dude, he is taken. Or at least his heart is. Gendry doesn’t want to rent them rooms, he doesn’t want to take or eat their food. And he tells her he is a knight. He tells her that when he is done with making that sword, it is his. Why? It has been months. Why is a sword so imperative now? What makes me still think he is going to wield a hammer when he hears about Robert and his bloodline, or use the sword but still prefer the hammer that he is used to? I guess he figures that knights do have swords, so he should make one just in case. Too funny.”

"I also thought of Gendry seeing what has become of Arya’s mother…damn, and knowing Ned briefly and Arya, and how much she wanted to find her mother, of course, it is so sad. And he knows what happened to Robb and Grey Wind and the whole story. We see Uncat with Robb’s crown as she held it in her hands. Ok, let me run and get some more tissues."

Of course, he is angry and sad.

"He hasn’t left the inn where Arya was last spotted. Does he hope she comes back? Can somehow find her way back to that spot? A search on two fronts: 1. The BWB is actively looking for her 2. Keep the blacksmith buddy at a sort of command central where she last was? Does he hope that she has gotten away like she has in the past and will come back to a place she knows, so he wants to be there in case she does? (If he thinks that, it is very smart, because he knows her, and that she has escaped from impossibly bad situations before, and if anyone can get out of a sticky situation, his tomboy can do it.) I think it shows a bit of faith and hope in her abilities. Or maybe it makes him feel a bit better, something to hold on to?"

"So what is his showing up in book 4 purpose again? To show us he hasn’t forgotten Arya and they are all looking for her. And it is sad to see Gendry with his replacement/ cardboard-cutout Arya, (Willow) trying to cope a bit with what happened. But they are running the place. Nobody said they are friends. It seems like he just puts up with her and vice versa, and they don’t seem to agree on how to go about things, and it is different. It is lacking all the fun and spirit and feistiness that his arguments with Arya had. Storywise, all we really had to see was Brienne get attacked by literally anyone, any crazed whackadoo off the Kingsroad, and then have her brought to Jeyne, or anyone else, where anybody from BWB could have handed her over to Stoneheart."

It also sounds like he said “no,” regarding the place really being a true inn. It seems like it really is more of a BWB/hideout/orphanage. Like that is the major purpose now, a headquarters, and their network for the kids.

Brienne calls him “my lord,” one of the first things she says to him upon seeing him. He could care less and doesn’t get it. I think we come back to that later. He may put it together with a bunch of things when he finds out who he is.

“His eyes brimmed with anger and suspicion.” Brienne and Meribald both notice.

Sparrows and others KNOW to bring orphans there to the orphanage.

Willow acts like Arya and throws a fit. He could care less. This girl throws a fit, Arya may get angry but it is not a girly/hissy fit. It was always important and about survival. He knows this. The difference.

I took a look at the symbolism of not eating. It is a sign that someone is upset. And in front of him the Hound was mentioned, and he knows that took her.

And this:

“One day that little girl will make some man a frightful wife,” Ser Hyle observed. “That poor ‘prentice boy, most like.”

Hyles' second allusion to marriage, and with the girl mistaken for Arya with Gendry.

The “I’m a knight making a sword, stuff,” to me, sounds like Sandor looking to enter Robb’s service for Sansa. And now being a knight is important to Gendry.

As for what was said earlier I disagree that Brienne's Arya mention was out of the blue but the opposite. Earlier in the book a Brave Companion Timeon put Brienne on her trail. In the chapter right before Brienne meets Willow and Gendry the Elder Brother corrects her that she misunderstood Timeon and that she's on Arya's trail not Sansa's. So Arya was already put on her mind directly before meeting Willow.

Furthermore, as I said Willow is not like Arya. Physically she has the same attributes as Jeyne Poole not Arya. She's skinny with brown hair and brown eyes and there's no mention of a long face. The difference is that Willow is not pretty and that's what furthered Brienne's belief that she could be Arya. There's nothing about her behavior to me at least that is specifically like Arya. She bosses Gendry and the kids around but that's nothing a young Cersei or Olenna wouldn't do.

When she introduced herself there was nothing about her that said oh Arya would say that and she seemed more tactful or polite. She might also be typically feminine. She gives Brienne looks and wonders why Brienne is dressed like a man which to me indicates that she herself does not and does not want to do that. She uses a crossbow but that seems more like the Mormont way of using a weapon because the situation calls for it rather than having an interest in it.

Re: Starks in the Riverlands: Personally, I think that the two likeliest are Bran and (less likely, but still plausible) Sansa. Bran won't be there in person, but we haven't talked much, or not in a long time, about the Isle of Faces sitting right there in the middle of things, in the Gods Eye. Surely that place has been set up for something significant, and Bran is set up to see through the eyes of the gods, as the eyes of the gods.

I speculated in the last thread about the possibility that the Ironborn might make their appearance in the Riverlands as well, given that the Ironborn used to be Kings of the Isles and Rivers, and the special history of Harren the Black, which Euron might be set up to repeat and revise, this time, he hopes, with dragons on his side. What makes this especially intriguing is the way that Euron's personal sigil connects him to the old gods and maybe even the Gods Eye and/or Bloodraven: he's got crows and he's got the single (red) eye. Although part of me thinks that Euron wants to get his butt to the Iron Throne, part of me thinks that there's no character better suited to the creepiness and magical significance of Harrenhal. And Harrenhal is right there on the Gods Eye, where Bran might be able to go in a thought.

But Harrenhal could also be possible as a destination for Sansa, in Littlefinger decides to do something with his lordship there. I don't actually think this very likely, I think it's more likely that there will be a Vale/North thing going on with Sansa, but there was that cool bat imagery used for Sansa, and she's got some Whent mixed in with her Stark.

Well, as for Harrenhal I wasn't sold on it but there is a theory that Sansa was going to get Harrenhal because of her bat connection which is the same symbol of Harrenhal and she has a claim. I think if someone is going to rule a place the author should make the character have a connection with the place. They should go there or there should be references to the place that gets stronger as the books go along. I feel the same about theories that Arya will rule the Stormlands in the end. He's done nothing to establish a connection with the place. She's never been there, has no interest in it, doesn't know if she would even like it there or not, has no interest in the people which would be important if she was going to one day rule them. This is something that I think would be out of the blue.

ETA: So basically I think if Sansa is meant to rule Harrenhal then she should go there. I think she'll stay at the Vale in the next book or most of it though and Euron will be busy with Old Town and since Dany was warned against him he's going to have to meet her somehow.

[LongRider]

Arya has a connection with Harrenhal, spent alot of time there as a kitchen slavey and cup bearer for Roose.

[ARYa_Nym]

That doesn't mean another character can't establish a connection. Arya has a negative connection with Harrenhal except for that brief period where she was the ghost. It's one of her worst life experiences and she was there as a captive not a leadership position. She wasn't really getting to know and love her future people.

ETA: Her time there is what makes me believe that she is the Stark the least likely to rule the place if any of them will. After going through that why would she want to go back there and stay? Like when she realized that she was the BWB's captive and can't go back and stay with them.

This would be an example of an established connection. While Bran is at the Nightfort:

"a crooked weirwood had burst up through the slate floor beside the huge central well, stretching slantwise toward the hole in the roof, its bone-white branches reaching for the sun. It was a queer kind of tree, skinnier than any other weirwood that Bran had ever seen and faceless as well, but it made him feel as if the old gods were with him here, at least."

& there were repeated Danny Flint references (being a boy with Yoren and Danny's song being played at her wedding) and we learned that there was an Arya Flint.

[OldGimletEye]

snip

Another interesting post booknerd. I have just come to the realization that I may not understand Gendry's character that well. I'll have to do a re-read.

Also, just randomly throwing this out here: I think my favorite part of Arya and Gendry's relationship was when Gendry learns that Arya is a highborn and Arya thinks that she just knows he'll be stupid after finding out about her social status. I laughed at that part because it's so Arya.

Well, that would be really sad. Sansa and Sweetrobin wash up on the QI dead. Here you go, Sandor, be careful what you wish for. I don't even think GRRM would be that cruel.

If this happens, I think I'll have to hulk out and flip a table or something.

Now, just for my own clarification, I don’t think the Hound was a stalker. GRRM had to have ways of throwing them together, so he happened to be there when Sansa was running down the serpentine steps. Other than that, their encounters happen in the course of the events at court; he would have attended the feast after the tourney, he was in the bailey when Sansa was beaten because he escorted her there, warning her beforehand, he attended Joff’s name day tourney in the royal box, where he would have been stationed, was out and about the day of the riots doing his KG duty, and before the battle of Blackwater, Sansa ran into him, not the other way around. Therefore, not a stalker.

I don't think he was a stalker either. I do think he was definitely keeping an eye on Sansa for her own safety. There is a part in ACOK in one of Tyrion's chapter's, I think, where Tyrion or someone else says that the Hound is never far away from his master. Tyrion or whomever meant Joffrey. They never considered that Sandor/ The Hound might have been in the process of switching "masters".

[Le Cygne]

“One day that little girl will make some man a frightful wife,” Ser Hyle observed. “That poor ‘prentice boy, most like.”

Hyles' second allusion to marriage, and with the girl mistaken for Arya with Gendry.

Ser Hyle is hilarious. Then he totally botches a come on to Brienne.

If this happens, I think I'll have to hulk out and flip a table or something.

Same here. And I agree, Sandor was looking out for Sansa.

[ARYa_Nym]

Well, Arya never hit Weasel. She did beat Hot Pie but that's not similar to Willow. She beat him so badly he shat himself which is more abusive and Willow just seems a basic stern motherly type. As I said there are other characters I can see doing that. Olenna or Cersei but they aren't like Arya.

I can't see Arya in a nurturing role as of TWoW like Willow. She no longer hangs with children like she used to. The last time she saw a child was negative and if we count when she thought the Waif was a child she threatened to kill her or at least let her know that she was capable of killing her.

ETA: Granted I don't think that Willow is like Cersei or Olenna but I'm saying hitting someone with a spoon and being bossy is something that characters who aren't like Arya can do.

[Booknerd2]

Ok, it is that time again. I totally neglected the OP updates for a long time. But the threads got moving, and here we are at V.2

And we barely, with all the stuff covered and questions pondered, barely tapped the surface.

Before I go back and check out some posts let me throw out there who I am adding. Some, will be small with less info, and some of the heavy hitters, well, it is about time they go added.

If anything you feel should be added let me know. Also, there are people not exactly in the Riverlands now, very few, but they are so important to the area and the people in it, and we have been talking about them, so I think they should go in as a profile for the page 1 OP.

Ideas, in no order:

I may want to do a little list of anyone seeking out/ looking for Sansa, Arya, Sandor etc. Just to have them all in one place and how many are seeking each of the three. This will be at a later date and is going to take some time.

Ok, people to add to the OP. Two more categories also: Third tier, and out of Riverlands, for now, example Arya. She needs a profile, is not currently in the Riverlands, but a big part of the story there and the Webbers' goals: to find her.

And just check the OP from time to time. This is going to be ongoing until I finish. I have to do research and write a mini profile for each. Some will be longer than others.

Lyle Crakehall

Ghost of High Heart

Hallis Mollen

Edric Dayne

Sansa Stark/Alayne Stone

Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish

Arya Stark

Lady of the Leaves

Mad Mouse

Elder Brother

Now down the road...

A little write up of all living BWB - branch that left LS and current – And any nobles, prostitutes, anyone that are harborers/sympathizers of them. I am still wondering for the next book if there is that one name or so, we don't know much about them or hear very little/barely page time, and they come back into the story or move out of the background. This is insurance. LOL!

Objects and Places coming soon - let me know if there is anything you really want to include. This is just a sample list, and stuff people threw out in V.1.

Bull helm

Hound helm

The Inn

[Le Cygne]

Here's GRRM, this suggests the possibility Arya will not be an assassin:

Question: So when you had first introduced Arya, you knew she was going to become an assassin?

GRRM: Well she's not an assassin yet. You are assuming she is going to become one. She's an apprentice.

http://observationdeck.io9.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845

She's not just going to hang out in Braavos in the penultimate book, she's coming back to Westeros...

[Booknerd2]

Another interesting post booknerd. I have just come to the realization that I may not understand Gendry's character that well. I'll have to do a re-read.

Also, just randomly throwing this out here: I think my favorite part of Arya and Gendry's relationship was when Gendry learns that Arya is a highborn and Arya thinks that she just knows he'll be stupid after finding out about her social status. I laughed at that part because it's so Arya.

If this happens, I think I'll have to hulk out and flip a table or something.

I don't think he was a stalker either. I do think he was definitely keeping an eye on Sansa for her own safety. There is a part in ACOK in one of Tyrion's chapter's, I think, where Tyrion or someone else says that the Hound is never far away from his master. Tyrion or whomever meant Joffrey. They never considered that Sandor/ The Hound might have been in the process of switching "masters".

Thanks! It's too much, right? That thing I wrote is old stuff and new, and pretty damn long. There is so much that can be taken out of the chapters... And there is more that I never got around too but want to one day.

Lately, I was thinking…little ramblings...

-Arya was referred to as different names at different times in her life. Arya, Arry, Cat, No One, etc…Sometimes Gendry was the Bull or Gendry. Now he is also Ser, of the Hollow Hill. I would love to take a look at those times and glean stuff from it if I can. Even do a mini comparison of Jon and him with the bastard attitudes towards them by Westeros culture.

-I like the idea that he saved Brienne's life who has Oathkeeper, which is essentially a piece of Ice. And how wonderful it would be if he can re-forge Ice somehow. Eh, he would need Widow's Wail too though for the full effect... The beauty would be that he revives Arya's father's sword. I would see it as a late gift to Ned too. "Hey, I gave you a hard time and I would not sell you my bull helm, but I can now do one better, and restore Ice in some way to you. Like somehow that one exchange with Arya's dad could be resolved and bettered.

-I saw a thread regarding Gendry and "the seed is strong." Many comments/opinions…but I like to also think of it as a sort of literary statement/future projection too. That Gendry, Mya, maybe Edric? They are forging there own path despite the odds, and the low birth, and not much/to no reception from Robert. Gendry has come a long way from Mott's and Mya is doing her thing and they both are friends with Starks and very much in the story. They may make their own way, path in life, and come back in the story strong. Really, his true kids are good people, and not pampered assholes. Although, I have no beef with Tommen and Myrcella at all.

- I like to think that in some small way, Gendry is doing what Robert wanted to do but couldn't. He is out there with the Band of Brothers. Started in Robert's name. Robert hated being king, and wished he could run away and fight, and have a less structured existance. He is also very much in with Starks.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Hi Riverland Webbers ! I had a lot to catch up on, and I've really enjoyed reading all the posts. Lots of ideas and friendly discussion. There's not a great deal I can add to details, as they were pretty much covered in the relative discussions [ Great work all ]. But I can add my humble opinions on what may happen moving forward. So briefly on what's been mentioned.

Jaqen H'ghar -- I love this character and his story arc with Arya is one of my favourites of the series. But I do have a different take on this issue than some of the discussion on this thread. I don't think we will ever see '' Jaqen '' again. The mysterious FM or whatever he is, we have, and will again see. The Alchemist and Pate we have obviously seen, and I see this character having a key role moving forward, in whatever guise suits the needs. My reasoning for this is what he says to Arya as they part company and he changes his face. '' Jaqen H'ghar must die ''. He seems well on his way to achieving at least part of his goal, holding the key at the Citadel. So once he has what he wants the next part of the journey starts, to fulfil the rest of his mission, or head back to base with the info gathered. TBH I don't see this involving the Riverlands, he was already there, and was striving to get somewhere else, this would be poor planning.

Gendry -- Thanks Booknerd2 for the evaluation on the Arya + Gendry text and of course when we see him again, the change in Gendry's persona. I enjoyed the read. As for Gendry moving forward, I agree that he is waiting and hoping at the Inn, and acting as the eyes for a potential Arya spotting. This must be awful when you add in LSH and the BWB declining spirit, as you've mentioned he must be in turmoil. I think until the BWB make a serious move, Gendry is staying put. As for a reunion with Arya, I am in the '' It has to happen '' crew. Maybe that's my heart speaking, but there's not a lot of textual evidence either way, so I'll go with my heart for now. However I do see it being later in the series.

Arya returning -- Well, this is anyone's guess. North ? Justin Massey in Bravos with ships, hearing of Jon's death, just going home are all possibilities. One I haven't seen mentioned for the North is White Harbour. Not saying I think that is what will happen , but worth throwing out there. Any news on Rickon may sway this decision and assuming she takes a ship back to Westeros, it is also a harbour.

The Riverlands I agree with ARYa-Nym, it would be going backwards on her story arc. And what she would want to achieve is already being taken care of, killing Frey's and avenging the RW.[ Lots to discuss there as well ].

The Stormlands -- I don't see Arya having any connection there, and the players there are embroiled in the beginnings of war and therefore probably best avoided. Could maybe target Aegon / Jon Con, but seems unlikely.

King's Landing -- Could definitely be a destination, a lot of players in the game, and the built up, city area would be perfect to perform her array of skills. Knowing these various players is an obvious advantage as well.

Dorne -- Again a possibility, could be safe passage, going unnoticed if she is to infiltrate King's Landing.

The Vale -- Again a possibility, but I'm not sure where this would lead, maybe a contract on LF ? Ha ! Probably not.

The other regions I think we can discount.

So to conclude, I think I fall on the side of A] Continuing her FM training and B] Returning to Westeros on an assignment. In my mind the most effective place to return to is King's Landing. Perhaps to take out a major player in the story. I am open to Arya leaving the FM, but I just don't see it being yet, leaving her to complete at least some more FM training.

By the way, I saw an interesting theory on Arya coming back to the North as [f]Arya. Jeyne Poole is on her way to the Wall with Justin Massey and could perhaps go with him to Bravos for safe keeping. Once there, with her terrible health and mental state, the theory goes, she may go to THOBAW and ask for the gift of mercy. This would give the FM an incredibly important face in the scheme of things in Westeros, especially the North. And an incredibly cool opportunity for GRRM to explore a freaky, yet fascinating story arc. Surely this would be Arya's weirdest disguise / persona. The mind boggles !

Booknerd2, I have been looking into some of the Houses and individuals in the RL, and in particular the absentees from the siege at RR and some others that have had important roles throughout the books. [ Mallister -- Bracken -- Blackwood -- Rygers -- Paige ] Add to this the Piper and Vance families that have constantly been working together.

I was wondering on your opinion of some of these houses and how, if at all, they will influence the retaking of RR and the Riverlands Web ?

I appreciate you have a lot to process, so no hurry, but I thought this group of Stark / Tulley supporters working against the Lannister's for the good of the Riverlands deserved a mention. A lot of them were present for Hoster Tulley's funeral, and have sat on Robb's War Council. Two of them Clement Piper and Karyl Vance are currently, reluctantly, on Jaime's War Council at the siege of RR. However, perhaps in a good position to influence things ?

I have some notes, nothing really the Wiki doesn't already tell us, but nevertheless I could post them here so to have their whereabouts and situation for easy access. Really pleased this thread is going strong ! :D