The Riverlands Web V.2

[Booknerd2]

I don't think the knife in her pocket is Needle as it would be too long. I feel this chapter points for her returning to Westeros and I sure hope that's right! Loved it when she was Arya again at the end of the chapter. Can't wait to read it in WOW!

We're

spoiler

experts now!

:rofl:

Totally. I don't think it is Needle, but I think the goal is, if she ever has to run or leave, she knows to take it. That might be just to have something on her. But what is funny is that, she has that. Her knife that got Raff in the throat was up a sleeve…that is two. And this is a question for Longie, or whoever.

I am assuming that the knife tip hidden in her sleeve is the same one, that she cut his thigh with, but he couldn't see it until the damage was done, right? If it is a third one…holy shit…Gendry has nothing to fear. She is fine. LOL!

Oh, and this is good. We have good spoiler box practice. I am about 100 pages into WOIAF…so we can discuss that too. LOL!

[Le Cygne]

I disagree... Could be I just want it to be so, but I think there's a strong case:

I think it's very likely Needle. It's a cloak, lots of room. He's giving us a lot of detail:

The blade doesn't belong to Mercy. And at the end of a chapter filled with references about her old life, she's Arya.

It's described as "the long thin blade came sliding from her sleeve" (she's got something up her sleeve).

She owns a very well-loved long thin blade. And adding this... "A real blade." A "treasure."

It makes the arc complete, that's when she lost Needle, and now she's got it back, when she avenges Lommy.

There are hints throughout the chapter (needle and thread, she's not good at that kind of sewing).

They are secret pockets: first she hid Needle from the FM, now she's hiding Needle in a mummer's cloak.

If he's going to this much trouble to suggest Needle, just make it Needle.

This also sounds very much like the show scene: "She slipped it through his throat beneath the chin, twisted, and ripped it back out sideways with a single smooth slash."

[LongRider]

No! No! No! It's not, it's not, it's not!

:tantrum: :tantrum: :tantrum:

OK, maybe, just maybe.*

:angry2:

*(you know I'm kidding right? You're most likely correct)

[Le Cygne]

I have a thing for Needle. :lol:

Here's this, from AGoT:

She slid Needle out from under her cloak. The slender blade seemed very small and the dragons very big, yet somehow Arya felt better with steel in her hand.

[Booknerd2]

I disagree... Could be I just want it to be so, but I think there's a strong case:

I think it's very likely Needle. It's a cloak, lots of room. He's giving us a lot of detail:

The blade doesn't belong to Mercy.

It's described as "the long thin blade" that slides up her sleeve (she's got something up her sleeve).

She owns a very well-loved long thin blade.

It makes the arc complete, that's when she lost Needle, and now she's got it back, when she avenges Lommy.

There are hints throughout the chapter (needle and thread, she's not good at that kind of sewing).

They are secret pockets: first she hid Needle from the FM, now she's hiding Needle in a mummer's cloak.

If he's going to this much trouble to suggest Needle, just make it Needle.

This also sounds very much like the show scene: "She slipped it through his throat beneath the chin, twisted, and ripped it back out sideways with a single smooth slash."

Where have you been holding this? LOL! Do you want to give me palpitations? Do you know what I just did? I saw one line, a huge one that stopped me in my tracks, and stopped reading. To calm down and read the rest. I didn't think of that. The character motivation behind it and what was said in the chapter makes a helluva lot of sense.

Code BLUE!

Okay, I am going to need a few minutes, people. I shall return.

[Booknerd2]

Ok, I'm allright. I just needed a minute. LOL!

This. This….

“It makes the arc complete, that's when she lost Needle, and now she's got it back, when she avenges Lommy.”

Ok, this is why I have problems. When my visions stick too firmly in my head, and I pass up clues….

I pictured in my mind something. She is on the run, has little time, shoves her little hand into the ground and pulls needle and goes….Thundercats….hooooooo!

LOL! Er, something like that.

No, we don’t need a big production. We already know how big it is. I can see that totally being the reason.

Like when Superman as Clark gets the crap beaten out of him and he only wants a cheeseburger. He shivers and ice cold snot is running down his nose to hoof it to the Fortress. He becomes Superman again. Much is made of it, big production.

You are so right. How anticlimactic if much ado is made and we see her retrieve it? Very anticlimactic. This. 100,000 times better, it would be. We got it already, because for me one of the hardest to swallow scenes was her putting Needle away. True, why would we see something like that again?

And it is not like KM will let her have it back, right? She was supposed to not have it. That little rebel…

But I did have that feel also and on the flip side. We’ll just know she has it one day. That the surprise would be pulled so fast on us, like the one second to rip a sword out of a scabbard. But that feel came and went, back and forth.

Not this though.

Maybe it is that simple. She has Needle. What does that mean? She is even more disobedient? Her mind is already made up but she has to sit tight for a bit for the right time? She sees clearly and isn’t listening to anyone. She knows what is right for herself? She was Mercy but she was in an awfully good mood too. I got the vibe. Ayra knows something we don’t. Could be wrong. But if felt it….but I didn’t think it was that.

I missed this too. “She's not good at that kind of sewing”.

Just another allusion to her old life and very Arya.

[ARYa_Nym]

Arya already had the habit of putting blades in her sleeve before when she was Blind Beth. Those blades weren't Needle.

Anyways, what was shown to me is that she likes killing now and maybe she can start her descent on what GRRM was talking about how killing becomes almost a game for children in her position. I don't think she was there yet but

her moments of amusement showed the start of it to me.

One thing I have to say is that she's starting to fit the definition of a serial killer now. The latest chapter checked off the feels powerful and kills having a sexual element and she's developing an m.o.

But I don't agree with those that she got off on it. That was said in the Mercy threads. Maybe he was giving us hints that she one day will. I don't believe it now but I did notice the almost sexual way or blood lust way in which she spoke but I don't see her as sexual so I don't believe it at this point.

& as for the eels she was imitating a prostitute S'Vrone. Arya mentioned back in AFFC that she kills men and leaves them for the eels.

ETA: It posted before I finished my reply.

Anyways Arya doesn't see Gendry and Hot Pie as her pack anymore. She said that in ASoS and AFFC that they weren't her pack. I think that's good because I'm certain that at the least Hot Pie does not want to be in her pack and if he was afraid of her before it would be far worse if he met Mercy.

I'd rather her be around people who accept all of her not parts of her and not around those who benefit from her dirty work but have the audacity to judge her for it. Plus, where was her thank you?

She kind of found that in Braavos. A crooked city with crooked morals which reflects her and her stitching being crooked. She will go down a crooked path instead of a straight and narrow one. But anyways, she hangs out with scum and rogues. They can't really judge her unless they are hypocrites as they are no better than her and many of them might be much worse. So she has no cause to feel ashamed around them and can accept herself as she is which it seems she finally has. That shame that she had during the Riverlands is no longer present.

Another thing is she barely thought about Lommy even though she had the think so line.

. Dunsen might be going to Braavos. All Dunsen did was take Gendry's helm and she's going to kill him for that. I don't think it reflects her feelings for Gendry. She wouldn't be doing it for him but for her. It's not like he would want her to do that. And she's not doing it to protect either of them.

The huntress is correct though. She will hunt him down and kill him.

Anyways, my point was I see these kills mostly reflecting on her growing desire to kill rather than justice but this is a point of contention. The fandom has different interpretations.

In a strange way she has parallels to her "husband" Ramsay although obviously she's not on his level. He's terrible. But she hunts her victims and will have her pack of animals to help her along the line. Nymeria is a constant and Arya eventually getting her pack can be a parallel b/w husband and wife. Oh, and he trained them to hunt direwolves and in ACoK we have Nymeria killing wolfhounds so dogs that kill wolves. I just mentioned that she gets compared to the Hound but even in the Mercy threads it was mentioned by others that she was more like a Bolton in that most of her murders are not on orders unlike the Hound.

A major difference is she's not stupid like him. It's in her best interest to hide her behavior and she shouldn't tell anyone about what she's been up to not Gendry, Hot Pie, her family. Nobody especially if she leaves the FM on a negative.

It would be interesting/cool if she did Ramsay in but I doubt that would happen. Honestly a much better thing to do is end the Bolton line not target nobody Freys. The Boltons were the Stark's enemies for centuries. She would be granting her house a great gift. But she's in Braavos not thinking about the Boltons and there are characters closer to them who are. But if Nymeria has already left the Riverlands she could do something but the problem is that she'd have to come across him and as long as Arya doesn't know anything about the political situation there she's not likely to lead Nymeria to attack Boltons in the North.

Oh, and as for the key it's been theorized:

that it has something to do with the Iron Bank. You know keyholders, the key being iron, etc. so that's a new plot point for her. We haven't seen their headquarters so she can show it to us.

It was also theorized that she was meant to stage a murder for the FM so killing Raff might be something she was supposed to but killing a Lannister ally is something she was supposed to do.

She seems unconcerned. The idea of her disobeying and pissing off the FM would not be good for her since it ups the likelihood that they'll hunt her down and kill her. That's actually what some think would happen if she met Jaqen again. But I don't think that's what happened in that chapter.

[LongRider]

ARYa-Nym said "It would be interesting/cool if she did Ramsay in but I doubt that would happen. Honestly a much better thing to do is end the Bolton line not target nobody Freys. The Boltons were the Stark's enemies for centuries. She would be granting her house a great gift."

She met Roose Bolton in Harrenhal, she knows him, he didn't recognize her.

Eta; my point being, if she ever meets Roose and is not identified as Arya Stark, she could have an advantage over him.

[Le Cygne]

Just another allusion to her old life and very Arya.

Code BLUE! :lol:

Something happened between where the last chapter ended and where this one began, to account for the difference.

Before she was "no one" and had a "knife"... and she still has one of those, but that belongs to Mercy. Now she is Arya and has a "treasure" - a "long thin blade" - a "real blade" (GRRM's emphasis).

And so many references to her old life, and very Arya, like you said.

Also, thinking of the three things ARYA has hidden in her secret pocket as clues to a mystery, there's coins, a key, and a real blade... Three things, mentioned together... All a secret...

She's Arya Stark, not no one. She's keeping secrets, like she kept "warging" the cat a secret. She's killing for personal reasons, those who harmed her pack back in Westeros. She's likely got "Jon Snow's smile" (aka Needle) back. And at the same time, Jon's plot is centered on his "little sister." And his wish, just before "dying," was "bring her home." Another brother and her sister are referenced in her latest chapter. Hell, even a Stranger who says "bloody"!

Back at the Citadel:

The key was old and heavy, made of black iron; supposedly it opened every door at the Citadel. Only the archmaesters had such keys...

As they walked, he slipped his hand up into his sleeve. He could feel the key, safe inside the hidden pocket he had sewn there. Maester’s robes were full of pockets. He had known that since he was a boy...

"I want my dragon."

"To be sure." The coin appeared...

Pate grabbed it from his hand. The gold felt warm against his palm. He brought it to his mouth and bit down on it the way he'd seen men do. If truth be told, he wasn't sure what gold should taste like, but he did not want to look a fool.

"The key?" the alchemist inquired politely...

"Who are you?"

"A stranger. No one. Truly."

"Oh." Pate had run out of words. He drew out the key and put it in the stranger's hand, feeling light-headed, almost giddy...

Arya wants to see a dragon:

“I would like to see a dragon,” Mercy said wistfully.

Arya's secret pockets:

Her boots were lumps of old brown leather mottled with saltstains and cracked from long wear, her belt a length of hempen rope dyed blue. She knotted it about her waist, and hung a knife on her right hip and a coin pouch on her left. Last of all she threw her cloak across her shoulders. It was a real mummer's cloak, purple wool lined in red silk, with a hood to keep the rain off, and three secret pockets too. She'd hid some coins in one of those, an iron key in another, a blade in the last. A real blade, not a fruit knife like the one on her hip, but it did not belong to Mercy, no more than her other treasures did.

And before this:

Yet they brought him money: leather purses plump with gold and silver and the square iron coins of Braavos. The old man would count it out carefully, sorting the coins and stacking them up neatly, like with like. He never looked at the coins. Instead he bit them, always on the left side of his mouth, where he still had all his teeth...

The kindly man was waiting for her at the House of Black and White, seated on the edge of the temple pool. The ugly girl sat next to him and put a coin on the lip of the pool between them. It was gold, with a dragon on one face and a king on the other. "The golden dragon of Westeros," said the kindly man. "And how did you come by this? We are no thieves."

"It wasn’t stealing. I took one of his, but I left him one of ours."

[LongRider]

You've lost me.

what key? The one Pate has stolen and give to Alchemist, or was there another key mentioned in the Mercy chaper?

:dunce:

[Le Cygne]

The former. James Bond = Jaqen. Dr. No One.

I think GRRM is hinting in that chapter she's headed back to Westeros. Trying to figure out what the key is that she's keeping in a "secret" pocket.

[LongRider]

Ahhh! I get it now. Thank you!

[ARYa_Nym]

You've lost me.

was there another key mentioned in the Mercy chaper?

Well, in the Mercy chapter:

She’d hid some coins in one of those, an iron key in another, a blade in the last

This was theorized when the chapter was released to have something to do with the Iron Bank and the chapter does mention keyholders.

I just finished TWoIaF and it reaffirms the theory:

Matthar recounts the the founders of the Iron Bank numbered three-and-twenty; sixteen men and seven women, each of whom possessed a key to bank's great subterranean vaults. Their descendants...are known as keyholders to this day, though they the keys they display proudly on formal occasions are now entirely ceremonial...The Iron Bank is not ruled by keyholders alone, however...In Braavos, as many an outsider has observed, golden coins count for more than

iron keys.

So as I was saying this must be an upcoming plot point for her. & actually the Iron Bank is definitely something that can affect the major plot and has given certain characters already have loans but it depends on what she does there.

There was also a thread once where someone was doing a map of Braavos for something official and they said that there were places in Braavos that we haven't seen yet. I'm guessing the Iron Bank and the Sealord's palace. I don't remember the thread now but it was the one where the full map of Braavos was revealed.

ETA: I didn't find the thread but I found the page.

http://www.fantasticmaps.com/2013/03/the-free-city-of-braavos/

This was a great map to create. It was a thrill to detail the city and to get just a hint of what is to come (yes, look at this one carefully – there are locations on here that haven’t appeared in the books … yet).

The book also made me think that she may indeed go to KL first. She was told to learn Pentoshi and Pentos is the city closest to KL.

As for Roose the problem is that the Battle for Ice is already underway and she is in Essos not even asking for information on the political situation in the North much less making plans about it. We have Stannis and Northmen already there that are wiling, have the knowledge and means to deal with the Boltons.

[Booknerd2]

Ok, a few things, but now I seriously did not before entertain what you said yesterday, LeCygne. So my issue now is: is if that is what that is... things for me, well, I can look at things differently.

Ok, some lingering thoughts/questions:

It shows us too, that if she goes after anyone, she is going to be pretty damn effective. That is a plus for her.

The list lives, despite FM stuff. But… I’m not sure she will ever complete it. Either other people will murder them, they are destroyed personally and live on, or due to war or whatever. She’ll most likely get some off her shit/hit list though. Other people/ events may do the rest.

Arya and the Author gave Lommy more importance than I had ever conceived. By doing so, more importance for the Pack. It means something for her pack/wolfish attitude. It is more Stark, meaning essentially more her. It means the past is still alive for her.

I have to ask myself if it was even more for Lommy or for herself? She doesn’t even care for the consequences for herself.

She is not going to kill every list person and have it so individualized as Lommy, I’m guessing? Where she repeats the same words and scenarios as what happened with the person taken from her.

True, she goes to the FM thinking no one is left, no one cares, has no place. Jaqen helped her, all she had was that coin, so she left. She was staying with the Hound until she thought he was dying. If she can connect with past people too, see it is for them, and not here. That she is not alone and has purpose. She is going to want to return even more.

She thinks the Hound is dead. I worry Sansa will hear it too. I can’t imagine her reaction. Not good….having a dead love is bad news, especially if you think things are unresolved.

Is she starting to feel she has something to do outside of this, a place to go to, an entity, the pack still there for her? Maybe not yet, but it might be starting.

No one…doesn’t go out of their way to avenge someone’s death that was helpless when he died, and that you had a connection with. It shows heart, caring, justice, and engagement.

Any guesstimates?

I really thought so much it was a regular knife that I never entertained this.

Where does this chapter fall into the book? Do you think…

1/5, of the way in, or 2/5, 3/5, 4/5 or end?

This changes my write up. What happened PRIOR to make her get Needle? It is before she fully realized Big Nyms again, big Big Nyms is still reaching out, her identity, holding out a hand out to her to grab. I see more developments with that down the road. Arya will understand more.

Gotta wrap my brain around this.

Needle….Lommy reminds her of the pack….

I have to turn the kaleidoscope and ponder her mind frame again.

[Le Cygne]

No one…doesn’t go out of their way to avenge someone’s death that was helpless when he died, and that you had a connection with. It shows heart, caring, justice, and engagement.

Nicely said...

[ARYa_Nym]

That's actually the second time she's done that not the first. Is there gold in the village? She repeated his crime back to him. That's another thing that helps to establish that she is starting to have an m.o. now. A pattern can be identified. Some said that she's now developed a ritualistic aspect to her kills but I have no opinion on that.

Lost Melnibonean mentioned in the foreshadowing thread:

"Valar morghulis," she whispered softly, tightening her fist so the hard edges of the coin dug into her palm. "Ser Gregor, Dunsen, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling. The Tickler and the Hound. Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, King Joffrey, Queen Cersei." Arya tried to imagine how they would look when they were dead, but it was hard to bring their faces to mind. The Hound she could see, and his brother the Mountain, and she would never forget Joffrey's face, or his mother's . . . but Raff and Dunsen and Polliver were all fading, and even the Tickler, whose looks had been so commonplace.

^Possibly she only kills the ones or has something to do with the ones whose faces were fading. Unfortunately these are all the people on this list who matter the least. ETA: But it's not that unfortunate because I don't think Meryn or Illyn matter much either. Cersei won't be killed by her and Joffrey and Gregor were already killed by others. Gregor is undead now but I doubt she has anything to do with him.

Her list isn't the be and end all though considering she killed Daeron and the insurance man who weren't on her list.

But anyways, if that is foreshadowing Dunsen is next. But it was already a theory that Dunsen would go to Braavos.

As for Jon we don't know if he even died. He could just be injured and Arya has the tendency to be in the dark. Like I said she still has no idea about what the Boltons are doing in the North and Theon has never come up.

[Booknerd2]

Ok, I have to go back and read again, because some stuff hit me. I'll be back.

But a few things I was thinking of that popped:

We learned persons have the power to make her feel again, and act. Lommy, prime example.

And I was just saying how he didn’t do much hunting, he was injured and the 4-Pack had it out before over, who does more, who hunts more, who complains more, LOL.

Lommy did end up helping her. Posthumously. But he did. He helped her find her way back.

I just wrote an essay where I recount that he is sort of mean, upset about his leg, and calls her worm breath. She deflects it and says she would still get food for him if he wanted. She was nice to him and lets it slide. She knows before Gendry even voices it, that his leg is not good.

Paying it forward, Lommy. Holy crap!

If she has Needle, she has herself, she connects to the Pack. Really, if you can avenge Lommy and still care, her feelings for others, would be magnified.

Big Nyms she connects with more upon the return to Westerors, I think?

What is lovely, for reunions, any that may happen, is that she thinks many are dead. She doesn't know about Rickon, Bran, and LS, and Hound. They are just dead in her mind. Wait until she finds they are alive. But I am open that maybe something will happen to some before and they don't reunite. In this series, I know better than to say it is going to be a four out of four win.

She knows there is a chance Sansa, Jon, Gendry, and Hot Pie, Big Nyms are alive; to varying degrees though. So she has to be returning not just for revenge, but maybe to check on people she cares for. I can see her thinking the chances are slim she can find them, but will vow to rough it and die trying. I can believe that Raff triggered her making her think of those still alive. She feels that strongly about Lommy, but he is the least she connected with compared to others. It would make sense she would do more for more serious loved ones. Family and friends.

She is going to be doubly surprised returning and finding the missing ones are out there, and the dead ones aren't exactly dead.

[Le Cygne]

And how much more fired up would she be about someone else...

And we know she does have strong feelings for family and friends, because we don't take everything literally... nor do we insist everyone else takes everything literally. ;)

[ARYa_Nym]

She's tired of trying to get to her family and myself as a reader would be tired of her going on another travelogue trying to get to them. He did that for two entire books already. It's better they just happen on each other by chance. ETA: Plus, that would have her spend time trying to get to them meanwhile her family members are accomplishing things that have nothing to do with her and all she's doing is trying to find people and killing randoms on her list.

As for vengeance.. as I said I think she only kills Dunsen who may go to her in Braavos. Going to Westeros just so she can kill Freys doesn't make her matter anymore than minor characters and she is a major character. Actually there would be minor characters who matter more like Jon Connington in that scenario. Plus, she's been trained on specific kills not mass murder. The Boltons are already being dealt with. She is not the one who kills LF or causes his downfall and she's not even concerned about him. She already had enough info to hate Jamie yet she passed on putting him on her list so I doubt Bran will be avenged by her. She has never thought about Theon's role in house Stark's downfall so she's not joining the many Northmen who hate him. She's not the younger queen or the one who kills Cersei, etc.

I think revenge will obviously still be there but she needs something beyond that since her revenge is so small scale.

Look at Theon Stark in comparison.

So I think she should have a different plot point than what she's been doing in the past books. That's why it's good that she has dragons in her future. Once Dany gets to Westeros this is something that will actually matter especially with the second dance.

[Le Cygne]

Thought of one more thing, booknerd2, the author had Arya meet Sam...

Jon's best friend, Sam, and Jaqen went to the Citadel after leaving Arya...

Pate bit a gold coin, now "Pate" has an iron key...