The Riverlands Web V.2

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

booknerd2, I love your posts, and really enjoy the Riverlands Web! I've learned so much about Gendry from you. My faves are the young girl characters, because I see a lot of my younger self in them but like Tyrion, "I have a tender spot in my heart for cripples and bastards and broken things."

I like to think that in some small way, Gendry is doing what Robert wanted to do but couldn't. He is out there with the Band of Brothers. Started in Robert's name. Robert hated being king, and wished he could run away and fight, and have a less structured existance. He is also very much in with Starks.

Gendry is one of those characters I want to sit down and tell all about the potential he has -- he's inherited his father's strength and size, but he hasn't any of his father's entitlement as the son of a lord paramount, then lord paramount himself and king. I like the glimpse into the lives and concerns of the smallfolk. Also, since GRRM's historical precedent for the series was the Wars of the Roses, I know that a Westerosi renaissance post-WftD could be coming, and that someday Gendry's grandchildren (if he lives to have kids) would live in a completely different world. While some readers are annoyed by his resentment of highborns, I saw in his attraction to the BwB and the Red God a desire for a more egalitarian society.

​On another note, I'm excited to eventually read discussion the Riverlands sections of TWOIAF on this thread once the waiting period is over. :)

[Wizz-The-Smith]

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​On another note, I'm excited to eventually read discussion the Riverlands sections of TWOIAF on this thread once the waiting period is over. :)

:agree: Great point Liz Stark-Targaryen. Any enlightenment would be welcome. However, if not the mass of historical info is more than enough ! :drool:

[Booknerd2]

Hi Riverland Webbers ! I had a lot to catch up on, and I've really enjoyed reading all the posts. Lots of ideas and friendly discussion. There's not a great deal I can add to details, as they were pretty much covered in the relative discussions [ Great work all ]. But I can add my humble opinions on what may happen moving forward. So briefly on what's been mentioned.

Jaqen H'gar -- I love this character and his story arc with Arya is one of my favourites of the series. But I do have a different take on this issue than some of the discussion on this thread. I don't think we will ever see '' Jaqen '' again. The mysterious FM or whatever he is, we have, and will again see. The Alchemist and Pate we have obviously seen, and I see this character having a key role moving forward, in whatever guise suits the needs. My reasoning for this is what he says to Arya as they part company and he changes his face. '' Jaqen H'gar must die ''. He seems well on his way to achieving at least part of his goal, holding the key at the Citadel. So once he has what he wants the next part of the journey starts, to fulfil the rest of his mission, or head back to base with the info gathered. TBH I don't see this involving the Riverlands, he was already there, and was striving to get somewhere else, this would be poor planning.

Gendry -- Thanks Booknerd2 for the evaluation on the Arya + Gendry text and of course when we see him again, the change in Gendry's persona. I enjoyed the read. As for Gendry moving forward, I agree that he is waiting and hoping at the Inn, and acting as the eyes for a potential Arya spotting. This must be awful when you add in LSH and the BWB declining spirit, as you've mentioned he must be in turmoil. I think until the BWB make a serious move, Gendry is staying put. As for a reunion with Arya, I am in the '' It has to happen '' crew. Maybe that's my heart speaking, but there's not a lot of textual evidence either way, so I'll go with my heart for now. However I do see it being later in the series.

Arya returning -- Well, this is anyone's guess. North ? Justin Massey in Bravos with ships, hearing of Jon's death, just going home are all possibilities. One I haven't seen mentioned for the North is White Harbour. Not saying I think that is what will happen , but worth throwing out there. Any news on Rickon may sway this decision and assuming she takes a ship back to Westeros, it is also a harbour.

The Riverlands I agree with ARYa-Nym, it would be going backwards on her story arc. And what she would want to achieve is already being taken care of, killing Frey's and avenging the RW.[ Lots to discuss there as well ].

The Stormlands -- I don't see Arya having any connection there, or any players that would perhaps be an assignment from FM and therefore probably best avoided.

King's Landing -- Could definitely be a destination, a lot of players in the game, and the built up, city area would be perfect to perform her array of skills. Knowing these various players is an obvious advantage as well.

Dorne -- Again a possibility, could be safe passage, going unnoticed if she is to infiltrate King's Landing.

The Vale -- Again a possibility, but I'm not sure where this would lead, maybe a contract on LF ? Ha ! Probably not.

The other regions I think we can discount.

So to conclude, I think I fall on the side of A] Continuing her FM training and B] Returning to Westeros on an assignment. In my mind the most effective place to return to is King's Landing. Perhaps to take out a major player in the story. I am open to Arya leaving the FM, but I just don't see it being yet, leaving her to complete at least some more FM training.

By the way, I saw an interesting theory on Arya coming back to the North as [f]Arya. Jeyne Poole is on her way to the Wall with Justin Massey and could perhaps go with him to Bravos for safe keeping. Once there, with her terrible health and mental state, the theory goes, she may go to THOBAW and ask for the gift of mercy. This would give the FM an incredibly important face in the scheme of things in Westeros, especially the North. And an incredibly cool opportunity for GRRM to explore a freaky, yet fascinating story arc. Surely this would be Arya's weirdest disguise / persona. The mind boggles !

Booknerd2, I have been looking into some of the Houses and individuals in the RL, and in particular the absentees from the siege at RR and some others that have had important roles throughout the books. [ Mallister -- Bracken -- Blackwood -- Rygers -- Paige ] Add to this the Piper and Vance families that have constantly been working together.

I was wondering on your opinion of some of these houses and how, if at all, they will influence the retaking of RR and the Riverlands Web ?

I appreciate you have a lot to process, so no hurry, but I thought this group of Stark / Tulley supporters working against the Lannister's for the good of the Riverlands deserved a mention. A lot of them were present for Hoster Tulley's funeral, and have sat on Robb's War Council. Two of them Clement Piper and Karyl Vance are currently, reluctantly, on Jaime's War Council at the siege of RR. However, perhaps in a good position to influence things ?

I have some notes, nothing really the Wiki doesn't already tell us, but nevertheless I could post them here so to have their whereabouts and situation for easy access. Really pleased this thread is going strong ! :D

Hey, what's up? Thanks so much and nice to see ya!

Ok...

Jacket Cigar - Jaqen - I would love for them to run into each other again. Just because he is so tied to what she is doing now in FM and he got her there. But I am prepared for them not meeting again. If they did, I’m debating where/when he runs into her again. You are totally right though in your post.

Now what I do sometimes in a moment of weakness. Totally out there but…I hold out a tiny tinge of hope (crackpottery) that he was so far from Braavos, there was no need for disguise and Jaqen was him. I have seen other people with that belief too.

And believe me, you are spot on, I am crackpotting. LOL!

I always wondered this too….Why turn into Alchemist so far from goal. I didn't get this. Maybe it didn't matter what he looked like? Magic and he knew already? He was not in the Citadel yet. Maybe Jaqen "dying" is losing himself for a bit to be the Alchemist? Ah, Jacket Cigar…now I am making things up so you stay around. LOL!

Believe me none of it holds water. But I throw it out. And I totally know what my problem is and a few others too that liked the show. I see him so much as Tom W's perfect portrayal, it is so engrained in how I envision him now, that I am holding on to it like a bulldog and it might be a stupid thing to do. LOL!

On me…all my fault.

Gendry. I love this. Worded wonderfully, and how I feel too. I love everything you said, that I don't even have anything to say, if that makes sense, lol!

But…in the coming days, let’s just say I am going to write a big post question. There will be boxes due to spoilers. I won’t say anymore but it will be chock full of things to note.

Arya – I flip flop on her return. So many variables. Hurts my brain. But we try to tease stuff out anyway. My greatest weakness. Believe me no matter what I post I know it. I keep gut-feeling her at RIverlands and KL. But I know I have to open myself up to the North possibilities. I am working on it. You are right. There is such good evidence for it being there. And then stuff holds me back due to the Web and all the "Where is Arya?" "Where is Sansa?" stuff going on in the Web. Maybe they need at least one bone thrown in the next book? There is word at least about Sansa, Arya, Rickon? Somebody? Because if they are still looking through the next book, it would seem anticlimactic to me. No word on either girl and we get to 7? Eh, I'm not so sure.

I would be more scared of her running into LF than anyone else. My biggest nightmare and irrational fear. Or is it? Seriously. She has her list, but damn it, she has no idea, how could she, just like her family until it was too late, the he screwed everything up for them. Ned, Cat, Bran, Sansa, all of them…

The bolded - Sounds wonderful. Post your notes if you want. Everything you said, the Houses, has to be looked into as well. There is so much I want to add just to the OP, that I never even tackled the thought of this yet. Totally, go ahead and post. We can even discuss it for a bit and maybe add it to the OP for quick reference.

[Booknerd2]

booknerd2, I love your posts, and really enjoy the Riverlands Web! I've learned so much about Gendry from you. My faves are the young girl characters, because I see a lot of my younger self in them but like Tyrion, "I have a tender spot in my heart for cripples and bastards and broken things."

Gendry is one of those characters I want to sit down and tell all about the potential he has -- he's inherited his father's strength and size, but he hasn't any of his father's entitlement as the son of a lord paramount, then lord paramount himself and king. I like the glimpse into the lives and concerns of the smallfolk. Also, since GRRM's historical precedent for the series was the Wars of the Roses, I know that a Westerosi renaissance post-WftD could be coming, and that someday Gendry's grandchildren (if he lives to have kids) would live in a completely different world. While some readers are annoyed by his resentment of highborns, I saw in his attraction to the BwB and the Red God a desire for a more egalitarian society.

​On another note, I'm excited to eventually read discussion the Riverlands sections of TWOIAF on this thread once the waiting period is over. :)

Thanks! I've seen your posts and I love them too. I was on "The Seed is Strong" thread yesterday and love what you posted.

I love Gendry and Arya. And I always try to throw that in my posts. How I felt and my first reaction on a first read years ago. That I didn't seek this stuff out. I got the books and really got into other characters too, but when I came across Gendry and Arya too, I was like, holy cow! There were face palms, books dropping, falls off my couch. I couldn't believe what is in there, if you look for it. I could be wrong, but some stuff, come on…especially things that are repeated, emphasized, and particular presentation.

It smacks you upside the head. LOL!

Totally agree. This war when it's over…a new political and social structure is coming out. Some old, some new. Other stuff and it happens in most wars.

As for the nobility stuff. On version 1 of Re-Thinking Romance in the re-read section, there are 3 essays, where I really cover that.

I think under booknerd 2 (Arya/Gendry) essays part 2, part 3, part 4

They are called, The Day the Bull was Not-A-Lord-Zoned, On the Street Where You Live, and the Ripest Peach is Highest on the Tree.

They deal with the Edric Dayne/Gendry/Arya scene, the Acorn Hall stuff, and the Peach. Seriously, he never cared about nobility much. He started getting pissy when they became issues with his friendship with Arya, and got him thinking. I throw it all out there. Check it out if you want.

I am actually going to post and then get my WOIAF book. I can't wait either! And if anything pops, totally we can all discuss it when we can.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

The bolded - Sounds wonderful. Post your notes if you want. Everything you said, the Houses, has to be looked into as well. There is so much I want to add just to the OP, that I never even tackled the thought of this yet. Totally, go ahead and post. We can even discuss it for a bit and maybe add it to the OP for quick reference.

Thanks for your nice comments, I will post some of the notes. If nothing else it will give us a reference on some of the houses, individuals and their whereabouts. And hopefully it will help you to get some of the names on the OP list. I will post them soon.

[Booknerd2]

I forgot. I said I would do it for like two days now.

Upcoming post questions, and in no order, there are other topics too, so this is just a sampling:

Coming Soon:

Where in the world is Brynden Sandiego?

Mother Merciless and Her Back-up dancers: Who really holds the strings?

The Orphanage: The Arya Stark Check Points

Jaime Lannister is going to have a really bad day…a really, friggin’ bad day.

BWB Informants and Harborers

The Inn: Come and knock on our door, we've been waiting for you

Sybell Spicer is Totally Screwed.

Taking the Helm: The Smith and the Stranger

And more down the road.

[LongRider]

I think I should explain a bit my Arya/Harrenhal comments. Will Arya return to the RL? Perhaps, she will, perhaps not. I don't for a minute think her time traveling through the RL was all wasted travelogue.

She has learned much about the lay of the land and how the smallfolk suffer in war and how they want to live. She has a great basis for making strategic decisions in the future and will have an edge for doing any needed reconnaissance.

For instance, Harrenhal. Should she need to back there, she knows the in's and out's. She was in all parts of the castle, the kitchens, the keep, stable...she knows the place. Doesn't mean I think she'll rule there, but if she goes there she'll be able to do, oh I don't know, rescues, spy missions, whatever. This is my point.

Same with KL, 'catching cats' and her time spent exploring the place may come in handy too.

[LongRider]

Hi Wizz, hi Liz, glad to you folks back on thread!

:commie:

[Le Cygne]

I think I should explain a bit my Arya/Harrenhal comments. Will Arya return to the RL? Perhaps, she will, perhaps not. I don't for a minute think her time traveling through the RL was all wasted travelogue.

She has learned much about the lay of the land and how the smallfolk suffer in war and how they want to live. She has a great basis for making strategic decisions in the future and will have an edge for doing any needed reconnaissance.

For instance, Harrenhal. Should she need to back there, she knows the in's and out's. She was in all parts of the castle, the kitchens, the keep, stable...she knows the place. Doesn't mean I think she'll rule there, but if she goes there she'll be able to do, oh I don't know, rescues, spy missions, whatever. This is my point.

Same with KL, 'catching cats' and her time spent exploring the place may come in handy too.

I agree with all of that. There was a reason for all the people she met and all the things she has done in the story, and that may come into play.

The connections between people are there regardless of precise locations at a given point in the story. Character motivation drives plot.

[LongRider]

I agree with all of that. There was a reason for all the people she met and all the things she has done in the story, and that may come into play.

The connections between people are there regardless of precise locations at a given point in the story. Character motivation drives plot.

Agreed. She learned from every person/group she travelled with starting with Yoren and ending with the Hound. Plus, she learned that Gendry and Hot Pie being small folk, did not have the skills she had; riding horses, use of weapons, reading ect. and this was a lesson she took in as well. Her travels in the RL were many layered. People, relationships, seeing how people lived and how it affected their survival. It all counts, especially with Arya.

[ARYa_Nym]

I didn't say that her Riverlands travelogue was a waste but that the same level of criticisms that are said about her Braavos chapters can be said about her Riverland chapters.

For the Braavosi ones it's she's too far removed from the plot and I don't like her chapters she does not matter and I prefer to read about characters who do.

Well, in the Riverlands it was I want to go to x place but I was kidnapped along the way, I get free but then I'm a captive again. Over and over. This was important for her development just like the FM chapters are but they don't make her relevant in the grand scheme of things. "Arya" is fake but she has more importance so far in the grand scheme of things. If Arya had died already at this point it changes nothing.

ETA: And for the record I have seen these criticisms against her Riverlands chapters. While I don't agree with them that they were pointless and I enjoyed them at the time I do not want her to have been given a new arc in Braavos only to go back to Westeros and do what she was doing before. Every other character gets to progress. She should too.

She knew Harrenhal but what did she do while there? She tried to free people who Jaqen told her were already going to be freed and she made a conscious decision to kill people who matter to her but not on a larger scale. For her personal development and at the time it made sense.

However, I would not like this pattern to continue or for her to go back to that. I would be pissed if at the end of the series it turns out barely in the book Rickon was more relevant than her. If every other major character can effect the plot on a grand scale I fail to see why she must be restricted to a travelogue where she is only concerned with characters who matter on a micro not macro level. She has more chapters than many of them. All that build up for her to just hang around the BWB and kill irrelevant Freys and LS while in comparison Jon is busy being some prophesied hero, Tyrion is tied up with the second dance, Dany is off being the Conqueror or Nymeria reborn, Bran is being god like, Sansa is being a player and gaining power, etc.

She knows Harrenhal but there are no potential chain reaction characters there. I need her arc to start answering the question of what was her purpose when I wonder that at the end of ADoS. We see in her latest chapter that she finally:

starts to think about the consequences of her actions and what they could lead to.

That is good. What she needs to start doing is if she's going to kill people is to at least kill someone who matters. As I said this is understandable for her arc so far but if she continues the whole series killing randoms like Raff this does not answer what was the point of the character especially in comparison to the rest.

Oh, and as for knowing Harrenhal I could say the same thing about KL and her going through the tunnels and seeing Varys and Illyrio. Killing one of those two are much better targets for her than anyone in Harrenhal.

[Booknerd2]

Arya had Jon are the most inwardly and outwardly self-reliant. They will meet again, but I don't think they both end up in the same place yet.

And really it is two things I can't ignore.

1. The whole point of this thread. The Riverlands Web. All the arcs and characters converging, mostly everyone is looking for her, have been with her, and what would happen, she doesn't show up for another book or two? Anticlimactic. And they are aggressively looking for her. Searching, questioning, involving others, setting up the Orphanage, traveling to do so. Do we leave them all with a hand on their ass for very long? Not saying they are not working on other stuff too: Freys, Sansa, surviving, fighting, etc. But it doesn't sit right with me. There has to be a point and some gratification in their long, arduous search for her, I feel. Or it is like going on a long, expensive archaeological search and never recovering even a piece of pottery, A bone has to be thrown. Too much time spent on the Webbers and her.

2. Jon, I think needs to go South eventually. But he right now has stuff to do up North first. He has to recover. And I think Jon and Arya, well, the heroes go it alone for a bit longer. It is going to be hard, he does have allies up where he is, lots of harm-doers, but allies too. And I think he has to work his stuff out. He has an identity reveal coming up. The order of events for him is what I flip flop on, because he has way too much coming up to tackle.

But Arya…she is going to go North, in the cold and snow alone? I don't care if she goes as herself or with a new face. She is more suited to RL and KL. All I could think of are the NW traveling scenes from book 2 and 3. Large groups, many supplies. It just doesn't seem feasible for her character. Walking right into all the trouble Jon is going through isn't going to help either. If anything it might hurt him. I just think the timing isn't right.

Although I do believe where Jon and Arya is at in maybe the beginning of the book will be different by the end of 6. So many of what is being thrown out here, some of it might happen by 6. And they will have gone through a lot again. Those two never get a rest or an easy path. The point of their arcs.

And I know I am being too realistic for a fantasy story, but it doesn't mesh for me.

[ARYa_Nym]

I believe she has an arc with either Dany or the Blackfyres or both and Greyjoys before she goes North. Nymeria might be in the North already so that reunion might not come until late.

"If I had wings...I'd just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars, and see all the things in Old Nan's stories, dragons and seamonsters and the Titan of Braavos, and maybe I wouldn't ever fly back unless I wanted to."

^In ACoK she grouped dragons and seamonsters together and she did eventually see the Titan in AFFC.

In ASoS:

A sudden shout snapped her head about before she could leap. The ferrymen were rushing forward, poles in hand. For a moment she did not understand what was happening. Then she saw it: an uprooted tree, huge and dark, coming straight at them. A tangle of roots and limbs poked up out of the water as it came, like the reaching arms of a great kraken. The oarsmen were backing water frantically, trying to avoid a collision that could capsize them or stove their hull in. The old man had wrenched the rudder about, and the horse at the prow was swinging downstream, but too slowly. Glistening brown and black, the tree rushed toward them like a battering ram.

It could not have been more than ten feet from their prow when two of the boatmen somehow caught it with their long poles. One snapped, and the long splintering craaaack made it sound as if the ferry were breaking up beneath them. But the second man managed to give the trunk a hard shove, just enough to deflect it away from them. The tree swept past the ferry with inches to spare, its branches scrabbling like claws against the horsehead. Only just when it seemed as if they were clear, one of the monster’s upper limbs dealt them a glancing thump. The ferry seemed to shudder, and Arya slipped, landing painfully on one knee. The man with the broken pole was not so lucky. She heard him shout as he stumbled over the side. Then the raging brown water closed over him, and he was gone in the time it took Arya to climb back to her feet. One of the other boatmen snatched up a coil of rope, but there was no one to throw it to. Maybe he’ll wash up someplace downstream, Arya tried to tell herself, but the thought had a hollow ring.

This was when she wanted to get on the ferry to go North but she needed 3 dragons. A kraken happened to stop her along the way.

Also from ACoK:

“Don’t see why no one wants neither o’ you,” Yoren said, “but they can’t have you regardless. You ride them two coursers. First sight of a gold cloak, make for the Wall like a dragon’s on your tail. The rest o’ us don’t mean spit to them.”

The Wall is North obviously and I posted the bit about Arya having a connection to the Nightfort. So anyways, I think she has to have interactions with krakens and dragons before going North.

[Hrafntýr]

@ARYa_Nym: I hear what you're saying, and to be honest I think that either a Northern or a Vale destination seems most likely for Arya. However, I could envision a way in which a return to the Riverlands could be deeply meaningful and represent something quite different from "more of the same." If we were to see an Arya inhabiting that strange absurdist Waiting for Godot Riverlands but now with a difference, not as a mouse or a ghost but as a faceless with skills and a purpose, an avenging angel, it might suddenly infuse all those old sites and events with a new meaning. And if suddenly the Riverlands were to become where all the action is, where all the plotlines are coming together, then of course we might want to see Arya there. And such a thing is plausible, like I said, I think Harrenhal and the Gods Eye and the Trident have been set up as a stage for big events. It may not always stay the place of strange, absurd circular wanderings.

But that's all hypothetical, of course, and like I said, I think that the North (via Justin Massey) or the Vale (with Dany...I know, massive assumptions built into that one) are more likely.

[ARYa_Nym]

@ARYa_Nym: I hear what you're saying, and to be honest I think that either a Northern or a Vale destination seems most likely for Arya. However, I could envision a way in which a return to the Riverlands could be deeply meaningful and represent something quite different from "more of the same." If we were to see an Arya inhabiting that strange absurdist Waiting for Godot Riverlands but now with a difference, not as a mouse or a ghost but as a faceless with skills and a purpose, an avenging angel, it might suddenly infuse all those old sites and events with a new meaning. And if suddenly the Riverlands were to become where all the action is, where all the plotlines are coming together, then of course we might want to see Arya there. And such a thing is plausible, like I said, I think Harrenhal and the Gods Eye and the Trident have been set up as a stage for big events. It may not always stay the place of strange, absurd circular wanderings.

But that's all hypothetical, of course, and like I said, I think that the North (via Justin Massey) or the Vale (with Dany...I know, massive assumptions built into that one) are more likely.

I've heard theories that Dany might land in Dragonstone instead of the Vale which I think makes sense too. To go forward you must go back. It would make sense if she had to go back to Pentos which is where I think Arya may meet her and she was told to learn Pentoshi in ADWD and Dragonstone was her place of birth. I think if Dany goes to the Vale Arya might not be with her at that point. There were some things that indicated that Arya might have to flee from her and her latest chapter I think possibly showed a Blackfyre connection which would indicate that she might have to go somewhere else.

After Daena (whose namesake was Daemon Blackfyre's mother) mentioned a dragon king (she was talking of Aegon IV) Mercy says she wants to see a dragon. & they talk of Aegon's mistress the Black Pearl and he was father to Daemon obviously. Braavos is the bastard city and Blackfyres descend from one of the Great Bastards.

A Blackfyre connection would further the belief that she may come into contact with Varys again. There was much talk of that in earlier moments of foreshadowing threads.

I mentioned once that it was said that Daeron looked like some dark prince. A Blackfyre could be seen as a dark prince too.

If the Riverlands becomes a place of action I don't see that happening in the near future and if it does it may be something with the Others since Dany had that dream of herself on the Trident. The immediate future seems to be Freys and LS which as I was saying is a subplot storyline not major and most of those who want her to go there want her to go there for that and to see minor characters. ETA: So basically I don't think the Riverlands as her first destination spot is a good idea because there are no important major potential targets or things she can do on a major scale. I don't see this as a hot spot until ADoS but she might be in the North by that point.

[Booknerd2]

@ARYa_Nym: I hear what you're saying, and to be honest I think that either a Northern or a Vale destination seems most likely for Arya. However, I could envision a way in which a return to the Riverlands could be deeply meaningful and represent something quite different from "more of the same." If we were to see an Arya inhabiting that strange absurdist Waiting for Godot Riverlands but now with a difference, not as a mouse or a ghost but as a faceless with skills and a purpose, an avenging angel, it might suddenly infuse all those old sites and events with a new meaning. And if suddenly the Riverlands were to become where all the action is, where all the plotlines are coming together, then of course we might want to see Arya there. And such a thing is plausible, like I said, I think Harrenhal and the Gods Eye and the Trident have been set up as a stage for big events. It may not always stay the place of strange, absurd circular wanderings.

But that's all hypothetical, of course, and like I said, I think that the North (via Justin Massey) or the Vale (with Dany...I know, massive assumptions built into that one) are more likely.

That is how I take it to. It is a do-over, sort of. Not sure I like the word specifically. The experiences won’t be the same and she will be much different than the last time. And the Webbers have changed. A lot.

Yes, geographically it is the same place, but that is about it.

I am going to do a write up in the next few days, it is about time, but let me say something very vaguely about a spoiler/gift chapter.

No spoilers of course. LOL! There would be a box.

What I wanted to happen…happened.

How it happened….not what I expected.

So it fits into my A to Z….but not in my B to Y expectations.

It will make sense when I post. You can tell when it has spoiler boxes.

In a poetic way, she will be more Arya than she ever was in the RIverlands with all those aliases. More powerful and not as powerless.

She doesn’t have to block herself anymore. Once she gets sorted out in Braavos.

True, she may use some FM stuff and disguise. But she will know herself for good now. No more identity loses or parting with Needle again.

She lost Needle twice, that's not redundant. One was involunatarily, one was buried and put away for awhile. But she did not completely chuck it as she did with Joffrey's. and that means something.

Needle came back to her, now she returns the favor.

Both losses, but the outcomes are different.

It could be the same for the Riverlands.

[ARYa_Nym]

<snip>

OK she goes there but what is it that she does there? We have Jon in the North who is trying to save Westeros. Sansa is in the Vale primed to take down LF. Rickon about to be on his journey back where he can be used to rally the North and possibly be the tool to oust the Boltons and be lord in Bran's place. Bran who is going to be godlike and find information that can be helpful to upcoming conflict and is influencing other ways like whatever it is he's doing with Theon.

What would she be accomplishing in the Riverlands in comparison?

[Booknerd2]

Well, I am of the mind too, that the North is not the place Arya can be most effective. Story-wise and with her character personally and with what we know and the situation there already. And she was shot down early on with the Yoren trip North, and the whole it-cannot-happen, running bit. But at the end of the series, she gets her wish. Or maybe even a bit before that.

Tons of things can happen or that she can get involved with in the Riverlands. There is a lot going on there, and a lot of people looking for her, and they have been for a long time and it is hanging.

I can’t answer the specifics and have no idea. Only the Author knows.

And I know that the same can be said for other places.

But this is what I feel:

If she went North, that puts a big damper and stunts their arcs, the Webbers, I mean…Like a big bucket full of water and ice gets thrown on their red-hot drive and determination to find her. It kills the tension and waters down their purpose and arcs. One of their main goals, their common goals, the whole reason that some of them are working together, gets flushed down the toilet.

What was it all for then? Nothing? Across many books and many chapters? Then it went nowhere? No purpose then if she goes North.

The point was already made. She already went far away to Braavos. Now, I believe, Arya and the story has to be pulled in/reigned in and we get the tenseness that she is closer. She does it on her own terms. She comes back and it happens somehow. The Webbers find out that way.

Sansa…and I could be wrong. She may get the rug pulled out from under her. She just may be revealed by another party… But she will control things in other ways. LF will keep the upper hand a little longer before that hand gets slapped away.

I am still dwelling on this for a future Sansa post question.

No one knows Arya is back… and then she is. And then someone will know, and probably some one or a few people that have been looking for her for a long time.

That has to be resolved somehow. So bigger issues can be resolved that involve more people.

If she goes far from the west again, closer than Braavos, but in the North, than the cat and mouse game just went on for too long at that point.

If Arya and Jon find each other too early, how do they go about their own independent business?

I like the idea of them looking for her aggressively and she is hiding in plain site. That she comes there, to them, where they are. The Webbers…and for several books, it was least likely, because she was the farthest away. They were looking in Westeros. She was on another continent entirely. But their good intentions, hard work, and ever giving up, despite low chances of her being alive, paid off. They were right…she is now in Westeros. It wasn’t for nothing.

It is the heart and tenseness of the orphanage and Gendry. They feel she might come back despite all the odds not in favor. It needs resolution. And they were right. It is a big lesson in hope and determination.

So, in my estimation, her going North is later or last and the icing on the cake. She wraps up stuff South first, has her Needle, has her Nymeria, and those who were her allies she meets up with, that she was taken from and/or had been looking for, it got resolved.

Then she can go back to the North. All her arc was supposed to accomplish did. She never has to go anywhere else unless she wants to. Nothing was left behind when she goes home, because people, Needle, and Nymeria, hanging/meeting again with certain people, those running bits got resolved.

And it was pointed out. Rickon is North, Jon is North, Bran is North, but with his powers, he can be anywhere, he has the broadest reach of communication. So if the North is going to be that Stark saturated, maybe they have got it covered and her path lies elsewhere?

Honestly, though, I feel like we are talking in circles here, guys.

I think everybody has made their stance clear on Jon and Arya and where they feel they go.

It seems time to move on.

I am going to go back to the Sandor PQ with stuff I have been holding to post. Then I think it might be time for a new PQ. But I have to write the blurb first.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Ok, whether for discussion purposes or to help Booknerd2 with the OP, I will start to go through some of the individuals, houses that are not present at the siege of RR. And some others which seem to be helping or in good positions to influence things.

For instant access, the houses mentioned as not present at the siege are -- Mallister -- Bracken -- Rygers -- Paige. Jamie also muses that the Brackens are fighting the Blackwoods, which would account for their absence. So although not on the original list of 4 houses not present, I'm assuming that the Blackwood's weren't there either. Also 2 other families that have been involved are Piper and Vance. They are often mentioned together, so we'll start with them.

1] Karyl Vance -- Lord of Wayfairers Rest

Appearance : A winestain birthmark covers half his face. He has sad eyes and a melancholy look.

AGOT : Karyl went to KL with Marq Piper and Ser Raymun Darry. They spoke to Ned about the Mountains raids in the RL. The group of men sent to catch the Mountain ended up being the beginnings of the BWB. He would lose his father Lord Vance when Jamie smashes his force as they guarded the Golden Tooth.

Karyl and Marq Piper perform successful raids across the RL aimed at hampering Lannister troops.

ACOK : He also commands the defence of Fords upstream from RR in ' The Battle of the Fords '.

ASOS : Is 1 of 7 Nobles who launch the funeral boat of Hoster Tully.

AFFC : Is forced to bend the knee after the RW. Reluctantly joins the siege at RR and is placed on Jamie's war council alongside his good friend Marq Piper's father, Clement Piper.

2] Marq Piper -- Pinkmaiden

Appearance : Young and hot headed

AGOT : Much the same as Karyl Vance before. Went to KL with Karyl and ser Raymun and spoke to Ned. Launched raids across the Trident with Karyl. One of Marq's raids apparently drew attention away from Robb's approaching army and helped the surprise element of Robb's attack. Later Marq sat on Robb's war council.

ACOK : Leaves RR to help defend his lands.

ASOS : Marq is 1 of 7 Nobles to launch Hoster Tully's funeral boat. He then attends the RW and is in the group that leaves the hall with Roslin Frey as is part of the traditional bedding ceremony. He is seen by Cat to remove one of Roslin's shoes.

AFFC : Marq is held at the Twins after the RW. His father, Clement is on Jamie's war council at RR and is furious that his bending the knee hasn't led to Marq's release. This leads to a heated argument with Edwyn Frey on the matter. Later Jamie informs Edwyn that all prisoners from the RW are to be handed over to the Crown, which displeases Edwyn and the Frey's immensely. This fact, I feel is key to a lot of the houses and individuals involved, especially the scheming Piper's and Vance's.

3] Lord Clement Piper -- Lord of Pinkmaiden

Appearance : Short , fat, bowlegged with red bushy hair.

AGOT : Clement and Lord Vance guard the pass below the Golden Tooth. Jamie smashes their force, Lord Vance dies but Clement is able to retreat.

AFFC : Reluctantly at siege of RR. Is named as the representative of the houses that only joined after the RW to sit on Jamie's war council. As mentioned above Clement has the argument with Edwyn Frey which leads to Jamie declaring the prisoners of the RW are to be handed over to the Crown.

So to conclude, I think these 2 houses are worth our attention, Marq Piper and Karyl Vance in particular. They were involved from the start as 2 of the representatives that travelled to KL to get help defending their lands. Then went on to raid and disrupt the Lannister cause, before fighting in the ' Battle of the Fords '. Marq has sat on Robb's war council, and Karyl is currently on the war council at RR alongside Marq's father. With the imminent release of the prisoners from the RW, could this be an opportunity for Piper and Vance to once again team up ? Clement and Karyl are well placed to influence events, Clement already secured the release of the prisoners. Another point of note is that the Piper banners were seen flying next to Paege and Darry banners north of Tumblestone. Paege being one the houses that were absent from the siege. Could they be working together ?

More posts will follow, covering the absent houses from the siege. Sorry it's not all on one post Booknerd2, there's quite a bit to filter through their history in the books.

[Booknerd2]

Ok, so we have some Riverlands House backgrounds and possible second/third tier characters.

But for the thread topic which is focused on the Riverlands Web characters and the character connections there...

Does anybody have ideas, hunches, theories how these three (Karyl, Marq, Clement) could possibly get involved with the Webbers? For good or bad? Help or hazardous?

The Webbers - Sandor, Blackfish, Brienne, Jaime, LS, BWB, or others from the OP should be looked at, and also Arya and Sansa, with finding them, being a major goal.