Houses in Blackfyre's Rebellion

[glamourweaver]

Am I correct in the impression that none of the Lords Paramount supported Blackfyre claimants (if they had, they wouldn't have stayed Great Houses after the Red Grass Field)? As such, a lot of Daemon's support came from second-most-powerful Houses that saw the opportunity to usurp the position of Lords Paramount if Daemon had won?

We don't know about any Northern involvement do we?

Still not clear on how the dynamic with House Yronwood worked exactly, since the Rebels had a distinctly anti-Dornish streak to them. I mean, I get the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" factor, and the Daeron-Martell alliance is their common enemy, but even if House Yronwood was lifted to Lords Paramount, were they just super-short sited about maintaining that position once the rest of Dorne is sent into upheval over King Daemon's Court's anti-Dornish policies?

Or perhaps Yronwood ruled Dorne would get to secede, thus removing the Dornish influence from King's Landing AND letting Yronwood stand as liberators at home (and provide a politically useful "enemy" via border conflict for the forseable future).

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Stark- No, but some people suspect Edric and Serena Stark to have been involved. Seems pointless since Daemon would have to win a rebellion and then defeat the current Starks, but it is still up there.

Tully- I think not.

Arryn- No.

Tyrell- No.

Lannister- No.

Baratheon- No.

Martell- No.

Greyjoy- ? It does seem something they would do.

So yes you are correct.

As for the Yronwoods, I imagine they get Dorne, and Dorne remains independent. No Stormlander or Reachman likes Dorne.

[glamourweaver]

Stark- No, but some people suspect Edric and Serena Stark to have been involved. Seems pointless since Daemon would have to win a rebellion and then defeat the current Starks, but it is still up there.

Tully- I think not.

Arryn- No.

Tyrell- No.

Lannister- No.

Baratheon- No.

Martell- No.

Greyjoy- ? It does seem something they would do.

So yes you are correct.

As for the Yronwoods, I imagine they get Dorne, and Dorne remains independent. No Stormlander or Reachman likes Dorne.

Yeah, but their dream had been conquest of Dorne (as under Daeron I), not going back to the pre-Martell-pact independence and border raiding.

To make it worse, House Yronwood are Stoney Dornish. Their culture may be more familiar and less alienating to other Westerosi than the Salty Martells, but they have a far greater history of aggression and conflict with the Marcher Lords and the Lords of the Reach.

[Hardstone]

The Tully or Arryn section said they fought for the Targaryens against all the pretenders.

The Greyjoys betrayed Bittersteel, probably during the 4th rebellion. So they were involved at some point.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Yeah, but their dream had been conquest of Dorne (as under Daeron I), not going back to the pre-Martell-pact independence and border raiding.

To make it worse, House Yronwood are Stoney Dornish. Their culture may be more familiar and less alienating to other Westerosi than the Salty Martells, but they have a far greater history of aggression and conflict with the Marcher Lords and the Lords of the Reach.

Salty, Stony and Sandy Dornish are all Targaryen made categories, keep in mind, but they work for the differing cultures.

I think the Yronwoods would be kings of Dorne, not lords, the Bloodroyals. I'd imagine they want to see the Martells gone. First the Martells were Andals that invaded Dorne, then they welcolmed the Rhoynar and invaded Dorne, and now they are marrying the Targaryens, who invaded Dorne 4 times!

[Winterfell is Burning]

The North was clearly neutral in the war.

The main support for Daemon came from the second houses of the Reach, Westerlands and Riverlands (plus the Yronwoods): Peakes, Osgreys, Webbers, Hightowers, Butterwells, Freys, Reynes, Tarbecks, etc).Though Ser Eustace seems to think some of those didn't offered as much support as they could.

[Vikingkingq]

I have a theory that the Tyrells secretly were backing the Blackfyres, and then once Daemon died at Redgrass, promptly switched sides, but I haven't written it out yet.

[Veltigar]

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that there was some sort of internal Northern conflict during the first Rebellion. There are some branches of the Stark tree which suspiciously disappear at that time. The North would never follow anyone but the Starks, so in order to get any troops from the North, Daemon needed some Starks of his own. I can see a younger Stark making a play for the Lordship. If said Stark was a great warrior, he might have gotten some wide support in the North. The North would get her own version of a civil war that way.

[Lord Varys]

I actually think the Greyjoy betrayal of Bittersteel occurs during the Third Rebellion. That's going to be the big one, and I think the only rebellion the Blackfyres may be popular or powerful enough to have a shred of hope to win the allegiance of the Ironborn.

The Yronwoods must have fought with Bittersteel during the First Rebellion as it is very unlikely that they will support Daemon III in the Fourth. But there is no reason to believe that they fought on the Redgrass Field. They could have been beaten by a Martell army earlier during the war.

I've tossed around the idea that Edric Stark may have supported/declared for Daemon during the Rebellion in attempt to claim Winterfell, but TWoIaF does not mention the North as a place where the First Rebellion was fought. Although that's not necessarily a complete destruction of the idea. There could have been some rebellion going on there which had little impact on the main Blackfyre Rebellion in the South and was thus not mentioned by Yandel.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I actually think the Greyjoy betrayal of Bittersteel occurs during the Third Rebellion. That's going to be the big one, and I think the only rebellion the Blackfyres may be popular or powerful enough to have a shred of hope to win the allegiance of the Ironborn.

The Yronwoods must have fought with Bittersteel during the First Rebellion as it is very unlikely that they will support Daemon III in the Fourth. But there is no reason to believe that they fought on the Redgrass Field. They could have been beaten by a Martell army earlier during the war.

I've tossed around the idea that Edric Stark may have supported/declared for Daemon during the Rebellion in attempt to claim Winterfell, but TWoIaF does not mention the North as a place where the First Rebellion was fought. Although that's not necessarily a complete destruction of the idea. There could have been some rebellion going on there which had little impact on the main Blackfyre Rebellion in the South and was thus not mentioned by Yandel.

Leo Longthorn Tyrell was supposedly occupied with fighting in the Reach (or secretly Blackfyring), and if a Yronwood army is nothing to be scoffed at, then he could have been fighting them. Yronwood is also probably close to Starpike, in the Marches, so they could also have joined up with the Peakes, who were at Redgrass.

[Hardstone]

Which three times do people think the Yronwoods rode with Bittersteel then? Or has this been retconned?

[Veltigar]

I've tossed around the idea that Edric Stark may have supported/declared for Daemon during the Rebellion in attempt to claim Winterfell, but TWoIaF does not mention the North as a place where the First Rebellion was fought. Although that's not necessarily a complete destruction of the idea. There could have been some rebellion going on there which had little impact on the main Blackfyre Rebellion in the South and was thus not mentioned by Yandel.

GRRM might also have left it out because of future influence on D&E tales. If their was indeed internal division between the Starks, there must be a lot of resentment and anger left when D&E arrive there. The next D&E might explore the wounds struck by this Northern civil war.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Which three times do people think the Yronwoods rode with Bittersteel then? Or has this been retconned?

1, 3 and 4th are my bet.

We know not second, but Bittersteel was certainly present at the 3rd and 4th.

And a Yronwood could mean a single member, not an army, showing their support but not comitting, and leaving their army to do other things.

[Vikingkingq]

The Yronwoods must have fought with Bittersteel during the First Rebellion as it is very unlikely that they will support Daemon III in the Fourth. But there is no reason to believe that they fought on the Redgrass Field. They could have been beaten by a Martell army earlier during the war.

That would explain why Baelor was almost late to the battle - if he had to fight his way up the Boneway against Yronwood resistance.

It would also help to explain Blackfyre military strategy: they thought the Yronwoods would keep the Martells from joining the loyalist Arryns while the main force subdued the Westerlands and Riverlands.

[History of Westeros]

I actually think the Greyjoy betrayal of Bittersteel occurs during the Third Rebellion. That's going to be the big one, and I think the only rebellion the Blackfyres may be popular or powerful enough to have a shred of hope to win the allegiance of the Ironborn.

I strongly agree/have had the same thought. I believe the timing is perfect for the Ironborn to side with the Blackfyres.

Blackfyre 3 occurred ~219, and this was not many years past Dagon Greyjoy's rebellion. We know that Dagon was successful vs. the Lannisters and Starks and others. It was only when the *crown* intervened, (meaning Bloodraven most of all) that Dagon was put down. It's pretty simple to imagine the Greyjoys were punished severely by the crown, as that is Bloodraven's style. He's not remotely a lenient guy.

Bittersteel could've seized on this, promising the Greyjoys a reversal of this punishment and rewards on top.

This also fits very nicely with Bloodraven focusing on keeping the Blackfyres from crossing. He was intent on making sure they never even landed, by keeping a strong navy. If this is accurate, Bittersteel would be aware of it, and would need to look for a strong navy to augment whatever support they still had from Tyrosh or whoever.

(by the way, the wording is interesting. Torwyn Greyjoy betrayed Bittersteel "to his enemies". Note that Torwyn didn't swear an oath with Haegon nor Daemon III nor any actual Blackfyre. Perhaps this is how Bittersteel was captured after BF3. They were his escape route but they gave him up to the Crown as a way to switch to the winning side?)

[Lord Varys]

Yes, I assume that Bittersteel went down to Dorne at one point during the First Rebellion and fought with Lord Yronwood against a Martell host. Later Bittersteel left, and later still Baelor Breakspear and his Stormlords dealt with the Yronwoods, and eventually he joined with the loyal Dornishmen and marched to the Redgrass Field.

I imagine the Yronwoods switched allegiance in time to be not as severely punished as other Blackfyre loyalists, but that remains to be seen. Or Daeron II left that to Prince Maron, as Dorne is de facto still more or less independent.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

Great houses didn't back Daemon, but houses of Arryn, Lannister and Martell backed the Targaryens.

4 from the 9 Blackfyre supporters were from the Reach, one of them was house Peake which supposed to be powerful since had 3 castles. 1 from the 10 Targaryen supporters was from the Reach. And there were 5 houses which supported both sides with one of them from the Reach.

So I think that the Reach led by the Tyrell wanted to see Daemon Blackfyre as the winner, but they weren't brave enough to participate in the rebellion, coz the Targaryens' had a bigger army. Yes I know that house Tyrell told to be a Targaryen loyal till the very end, but hey, they're still the Tyrells, the southern counterparts of current Roose Bolton and Walder Frey.

So my prediction is that the Reach will lose a lot of soldiers against the ironborn. Then "Aegon" will invade the Reach and thus Highgarden with the Golden Company and the Stormlords, who will ally with him. Also I can imagine that Lady Olenna knows more than we think, and she already knows that Aegon is a Blackfyre, so when they meet Olenna makes a pact with Aegon: the remaining army of the Reach joins Aegon and help to take over King's Landing. Since Lord Mace Tyrell is in KL they will send him a message to turn cloak when Aegon arrives. And if he doesn't do that then will be marked as an enemy and they name Willas or Garlan (the one who will be alive) as the new Lord Tyrell.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Great houses didn't back Daemon, but houses of Arryn, Lannister and Martell backed the Targaryens.

4 from the 9 Blackfyre supporters were from the Reach, one of them was house Peake which supposed to be powerful since had 3 castles. 1 from the 10 Targaryen supporters was from the Reach. And there were 5 houses which supported both sides with one of them from the Reach.

So I think that the Reach led by the Tyrell wanted to see Daemon Blackfyre as the winner, but they weren't brave enough to participate in the rebellion, coz the Targaryens' had a bigger army. Yes I know that house Tyrell told to be a Targaryen loyal till the very end, but hey, they're still the Tyrells, the southern counterparts of current Roose Bolton and Walder Frey.

So my prediction is that the Reach will lose a lot of soldiers against the ironborn. Then "Aegon" will invade the Reach and thus Highgarden with the Golden Company and the Stormlords, who will ally with him. Also I can imagine that Lady Olenna knows more than we think, and she already knows that Aegon is a Blackfyre, so when they meet Olenna makes a pact with Aegon: the remaining army of the Reach joins Aegon and help to take over King's Landing. Since Lord Mace Tyrell is in KL they will send him a message to turn cloak when Aegon arrives. And if he doesn't do that then will be marked as an enemy and they name Willas or Garlan (the one who will be alive) as the new Lord Tyrell.

Two that supported both sides were from the Reach. Oakheart and Hightower. And two from the 3 from Reach are Targ confirmed, Tyrell, Webber and Caswell (who fought for Blackfyre in Whitewalls Rebellion).

[Lord Varys]

The Webbers fought for the Red Dragon, not the Black. Else Rohanne would not have had a castle in TSS.

I could imagine that some smaller Riverlords (perhaps Walder Frey's grandfather?), and Westermen also declared for Daemon. Possibly Stormlords, too (but, most likely, neither the Penroses nor the Dondarrions).

It seems that many lords tried to play both sides during the war, taking the Estermont or Swann routine rather than truly committing themselves to one side. The Great Lords apparently remained openly loyal to Daeron II, but this does not mean that they secretly did not back the rebels with money/men, or help Daemon's cause by not leading as many men into the field as they could have (Damon Lannister could fall into that category as he apparently did nothing after he fled into the safety of Casterly Rock).

[Winterfell is Burning]

So I think that the Reach led by the Tyrell wanted to see Daemon Blackfyre as the winner, but they weren't brave enough to participate in the rebellion, coz the Targaryens' had a bigger army. l.

Actually, I believe the exact opposite happened: so many houses supported the Blackfyres in the Reach because they were unsatisfied with the ruling of the "stewards", and some of them wanted to take their place. So the Tyrells supported Daeron II to remain in power.