Reasons against R+L=J that no one mentioned before

[Maya Stone]

Hey everyone, my first topic :) I've been lurking the forum for a while now and I finally decided to make an account.

I know you're all probably tired of hearing people trying to prove/disprove R+L=J, but I just really had to post this.

I know all there is to know about R+L=J, and while it is a huge possibility I still believe Jon Snow is Ned's son, and these are two of the main reasons why I think so and I've never personally seen anyone addressing them before.

First, I know a lot of people mention that Jon has no Targaryen or Valyrian features/traits and thus cannot be Rhaegar's son, but this was debunked because Rhaegar's daughter looks Dornish and there are a few Targaryens in history who don't have the Valyrian look. However, no one ever talks about Stark/Targaryen genes, or "seeds". It's obvious how strong and dominant Targaryen genes are, but Stark genes not so much. 1 out of 5 of Ned's kids have the Stark look, while the rest all look like their mother. So what is the possibility that Jon Snow looks nothing like his "father" but looks exactly like a Stark (or more specifically, Ned), when Stark genes aren't as strong as the Targaryen's?

Another thing is the connection between the Stark kids (including Jon) and the direwolves, They're not just simply pets or just an animal to warg, there's a huge connection between the Stark kids and the direwolves, in a way the direwolves ARE their owners. Now all of the direwolves are siblings, including Ghost, so why wouldn't Jon be a sibling to the other Starks? The connection wouldn't be the same if he was their cousin. This is shown in their wolf dreams that we all know aren't normal dreams, and especially when Jon dreams about seeing Bran's face in the weirwood in aCoK.

There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.

Jon?

The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only . . .

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

The first paragraph shows how all the Stark kids are also scattered and apart from each other. After Ghost howls, he responds to "Jon" and searches for his brother, Summer, but then saw his "brother" Bran's face on the weirwood. I mean this isn't just a connection between two cousins or two wargs, but a connection between two brothers.

I know I'm probably not the first person to think of these, but no one ever really brings them up when discussing Jon's parentage. I'm sorry if they have been discussed before though

[JaimetheConciliator]

Welcome!

First, I know a lot of people mention that Jon has no Targaryen or Valyrian features/traits and thus cannot be Rhaegar's son, but this was debunked because Rhaegar's daughter looks Dornish and there are a few Targaryens in history who don't have the Valyrian look. However, no one ever talks about Stark/Targaryen genes, or "seeds". It's obvious how strong and dominant Targaryen genes are, but Stark genes not so much. 1 out of 5 of Ned's kids have the Stark look, while the rest all look like their mother. So what is the possibility that Jon Snow looks nothing like his "father" but looks exactly like a Stark (or more specifically, Ned), when Stark genes aren't as strong as the Targaryen's?

My interpretation has always been that their world, with a few notable exceptions, is no less scientific than ours. And in ours, there is really very little truth to an idea such as a seed being "strong". It's just something that would seem that way if you are lucky enough for it to work out such that it happens to fit that perception. It's Martin's way of making his characters unscientific and superstitious, allowing for intrigue to be added to the experience of a new world.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

I'm going to refer again to the trait calculator:

http://dna.frieger.com/calc-quick.php

If Rhaegar and both his parents had blonde hair, but Lyanna has black hair, then there is a 100% chance that Jon would have brown hair. What color hair does Jon have? Dark brown.

Purple eyes don't exist in RL but lets say they are as recessive as green. If Lyanna and her parents all have brown eyes, her son with Rhaegar would have 76% chance of having brown eyes as well.

If Jon is Lyanna's son, he's still a Stark. Hence the direwolf.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Welcome! :)

First, I know a lot of people mention that Jon has no Targaryen or Valyrian features/traits and thus cannot be Rhaegar's son, but this was debunked because Rhaegar's daughter looks Dornish and there are a few Targaryens in history who don't have the Valyrian look. However, no one ever talks about Stark/Targaryen genes, or "seeds". It's obvious how strong and dominant Targaryen genes are, but Stark genes not so much. 1 out of 5 of Ned's kids have the Stark look, while the rest all look like their mother. So what is the possibility that Jon Snow looks nothing like his "father" but looks exactly like a Stark (or more specifically, Ned), when Stark genes aren't as strong as the Targaryen's?

Genetics in Westeros works the way GRRM wants them to. That said, there is no "stronger" or "less strong" genetic pool that can be used to predict the outcome. Jon would be half Targaryen and half Stark.. the chances of him looking like a Stark were there. Clearly..

Another thing is the connection between the Stark kids (including Jon) and the direwolves, They're not just simply pets or just an animal to warg, there's a huge connection between the Stark kids and the direwolves, in a way the direwolves ARE their owners. Now all of the direwolves are siblings, including Ghost, so why wouldn't Jon be a sibling to the other Starks? The connection wouldn't be the same if he was their cousin. This is shown in their wolf dreams that we all know aren't normal dreams, and especially when Jon dreams about seeing Bran's face in the weirwood in aCoK.

The first paragraph shows how all the Stark kids are also scattered and apart from each other. After Ghost howls, he responds to "Jon" and searches for his brother, Summer, but then saw his "brother" Bran's face on the weirwood. I mean this isn't just a connection between two cousins or two wargs, but a connection between two brothers.

Bran is called Jobs brother because Jon seea Bran as his brother..

If Jon's mother is Lyanna, Jon is just as much Stark as Robb, Arya, Sansa, Bran and Rickon.. those kids got a direwolf, why wouldn't Jon? If he's Rhaegars son, he won't be a Stark by name, but he isn't a Stark by name now either... And nowhere is it stated, nor will anyone argue, that only Neds kids can bind with a direwolf...

These six children all descend from the same person.. that would be all that matters, warging-wise..

[Knight Of Winter]

Hello, Maya Stone, and welcome to the forum :)

As for the topic:

1) There's nothing to suggest relative dominance/submission of "Stark" and "Targ" genes. Just because Stark genes are recessive in relation to Tully genes, there's nothing to suggest this would be the case with Targ genes.

Moreover, even if Targ genes are indeed dominant, there's a possibility that Rhaegar would pass recessive gene to his son (that recessive gene is not active in Rhaegar because, well, it is recessive). So, all in all, I don't think genetics can be considered a valid reason to prove/debunk any theory regarding Jon's parentage.

2) That one is easily explained. Jon is of the north, and does indeed feel special connection to direwolves, and is indeed a Stark - just not through his father, but mother. And whatever their parents were, Jon and Bran behave and treat each other as brothers. That's what matters.

[Lord Sapna]

Hello

I've grudgingly accepted that Jon is Rhaegars son. He didn't run off with/kidnap Lyanna for nothing to come of it, and so even without all other evidence the obvious result is jon.

However, when I first started watching. (I only started reading after series 4) I really preferred the idea that Jon was neds son. Ned was a great guy, but just almost unbelievable I mean the guy was a honour machine with a manwhore of a BFF. I just liked the implication that even the 'best' people do wrong.

[Maya Stone]

Thanks everyone for the welcome :)

I know how genetics work in real life and that it's more likely for Jon to end up looking the way he does in RL, but this is asoiaf we're talking about, where Cersei's kids were proved to be bastards born of incest because of their HAIR color and the generations of Baratheons who all had black hair.

And I know that Jon could still have a direwolf as Lyanna's son because he'd still be a Stark, but why is it this particular direwolf who happens to be a brother to the rest?

[Kienn]

I'm going to refer again to the trait calculator:

http://dna.frieger.com/calc-quick.php

If Rhaegar and both his parents had blonde hair, but Lyanna has black hair, then there is a 100% chance that Jon would have brown hair. What color hair does Jon have? Dark brown.

Purple eyes don't exist in RL but lets say they are as recessive as green. If Lyanna and her parents all have brown eyes, her son with Rhaegar would have 76% chance of having brown eyes as well.

If Jon is Lyanna's son, he's still a Stark. Hence the direwolf.

Wow talk about misinformation.

Real life genetics doesn't even work this way, please don't try to apply someone's high school project as realistic genetics.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I know how genetics work in real life and that it's more likely for Jon to end up looking the way he does in RL, but this is asoiaf we're talking about, where Cersei's kids were proved to be bastards born of incest because of their HAIR color and the generations of Baratheons who all had black hair.

But that was a case of Baratheons always passing on their black hair and blue eyes when they had children with a blonde. There is no such absolutism conveyed with the Targaryen looks. Some Targaryens have them, some don't, and it makes sense that the more the family married out, the more diluted the phenotype. The silver/purple phenotype is conveyed as the "typical" look, but there are enough outliers (Bittersteel, Rhaenys, Baelor Breakspear, off the top of my head) to show that it isn't rock solid by any means.

[Lady Jeyne Reyne]

I'm going to refer again to the trait calculator:

http://dna.frieger.com/calc-quick.php

If Rhaegar and both his parents had blonde hair, but Lyanna has black hair, then there is a 100% chance that Jon would have brown hair. What color hair does Jon have? Dark brown.

Purple eyes don't exist in RL but lets say they are as recessive as green. If Lyanna and her parents all have brown eyes, her son with Rhaegar would have 76% chance of having brown eyes as well.

If Jon is Lyanna's son, he's still a Stark. Hence the direwolf.

Gotta say I agree with you. I've always believed Jon is Lyanna's son. Rhaegar is the most probable person to be father - he crowned her queen of love and beauty at the great Harrenhal tourney after all. Did they secretly marry? Ned would surely keep his sister's son secret if it was her dying wish (or if by revealing Jon as a Targareyn it would endanger him).

[Hangover of the Morning]

People have already debunked your arguments so maybe try look at it the other way.

What does Jon being Ned and Ashara's or Wylla's son adds to the story? How about if the parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna?

Why is Ned so adamant to keep Jon's parentage a secret, when the mother is either dead or long forgotten common girl, and thus unnecessarily creating family conflict and hurting his wife and son in the process?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I don't buy the premise of Targaryen seed being especially strong. Notice that they help keeping up appearances through inbreeding. The Targs we met personally, Viserys and Dany? Their parents were siblings. So were Aerys' parents, by the way. And when a Targ lays with someone outside his immediate family, the results vary. See Baelor Breakspear, or Bittersteel, Rhaenys you mentioned yourself. (You have a point about the story playing loose with genetics, though. The author openly admitted as much. So, whatever real world science you guys cite, it isn't relevant unless GRRM himself knows of it and decides to stick to it.)

As for Ghost? Well, the direwolves don't mirror their owners perfectly. And Robb yelling "Daddy, we found six direwolf puppies, five siblings and their cousin!" does sound a little bit ridiculous, doesn't it?

[markg171]

When Eddard and his company arrive at the Tower of Joy, the Kingsguard are outside the Tower of Joy. If you're trying to protect something inside, the easiest way to do so from an attacking force would have been to be in the tower as well. Eddard had 6 men with him. The Kingsguard could have easily defeated them from the within the safety of the Tower, if their goal was to protect Lyanna. Jaime remarks while having his army camp fortified that it was something even Dayne would have approved of: that it was orderly and strong and well protected. Dayne therefore doesn't sound like the kind of man who would then abandon the defensive advantage that the Tower's walls granted them and instead wait outside to meet Eddard and his group. I can't imagine Gerold doing this either.

If however their goal was to guard Lyanna as a prisoner, and therefore make sure that she does not escape, then being outside the tower makes more sense than being within it. She can't get out if you're guarding the only entrance or exit. This would then explain why they were outside the Tower instead of hidden within the walls. Stannis does the same thing with Val. He confines her to a tower and posts guards outside the tower, not within.

Through Eddard's remarks we get the sense that it's been a long time since the war was over, yet no one had come to the Tower. So there's no possible way that the KG could have known to wait outside for Eddard and his group or whoever would show up (or if anybody ever would). They must already have been outside and the only reason to do so instead of being within the safety of the walls is if you're trying to stop whoever's inside from leaving.

[Lord Sapna]

People have already debunked your arguments so maybe try look at it the other way.

What does Jon being Ned and Ashara's or Wylla's son adds to the story? How about if the parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna?

Why is Ned so adamant to keep Jon's parentage a secret, when the mother is either dead or long forgotten common girl, and thus unnecessarily creating family conflict and hurting his wife and son in the process?

To be fair one of my biggest problems with R+L = J is that it doesn't add much to the story IMO.

Firstly I don't believe they were married just because targs used to practice polygamy, which would still make jon a bastard. Plus even if they are married who's gonna confirm that? Howland reeds just going to claim that Lyanna told ned they were married and the whole realm will be like fair enough and get behind him, Jons been raised as a bastard and he's nights watch, does he want to be king. Probably not.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Through Eddard's remarks we get the sense that it's been a long time since the war was over, yet no one had come to the Tower. So there's no possible way that the KG could have known to wait outside for Eddard and his group or whoever would show up (or if anybody ever would). They must already have been outside and the only reason to do so instead of being within the safety of the walls is if you're trying to stop whoever's inside from leaving.

There is if someone tipped them off that he was coming. Notice that there's no surprise from either side at seeing the other at the Tower. I think both parties knew that they'd meet the other.

As for the men staying outside the tower, I think we'd need to know more about the size of the tower and its structure before making judgment calls on that. It was small enough for Ned and Howland to pretty much dismantle by themselves; quite possibly, there wasn't enough room for everyone to stay inside of it. As for them keeping Lyanna prisoner ... she's a woman who's just given birth and is seriously ill. Where exactly would she be running off to?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

To be fair one of my biggest problems with R+L = J is that it doesn't add much to the story IMO.

Firstly I don't believe they were married just because targs used to practice polygamy, which would still make jon a bastard. Plus even if they are married who's gonna confirm that? Howland reeds just going to claim that Lyanna told ned they were married and the whole realm will be like fair enough and get behind him, Jons been raised as a bastard and he's nights watch, does he want to be king. Probably not.

Your problem is that you're thinking about it in terms of politics and not prophecy. Politically, it might not add much (or it might, who knows). But prophetically? Almost certainly.

[Hangover of the Morning]

To be fair one of my biggest problems with R+L = J is that it doesn't add much to the story IMO.

Firstly I don't believe they were married just because targs used to practice polygamy, which would still make jon a bastard. Plus even if they are married who's gonna confirm that? Howland reeds just going to claim that Lyanna told ned they were married and the whole realm will be like fair enough and get behind him, Jons been raised as a bastard and he's nights watch, does he want to be king. Probably not.

That's another can of worms and not really the topic of this thread so I am going to be very brief.

I think it boils down to Varys' "power resides where men believe it resides". We currently have a bastard pretender on the throne and people support him despite knowing that he is not legitimate, because they have a wested interest in it. Similarly, some Houses will declare for Aegon even if suspecting that he might be fake. If Jon's parentage is revealed at the right time (e.g. when there is no one decent left), people could support him despite his dubious legitimacy.

[Anythingatall]

Your problem is that you're thinking about it in terms of politics and not prophecy. Politically, it might not add much (or it might, who knows). But prophetically? Almost certainly.

You (I think) actually summed up my favourite ever reason for it being... awesome? (can't think of a better way to term it).

Something about "guileless Ned Stark" pulling off the biggest deception. It was better when you said it. It completely changed the way I read Ned and although I suppose in terms of story that, in itself, doesn't add much it's still thematically pleasing.

I believe it's important in terms of prophecy/character arc rather than politically (although I still think it will have political ramifications, but they will be secondary).

[Maya Stone]

People have already debunked your arguments so maybe try look at it the other way.

What does Jon being Ned and Ashara's or Wylla's son adds to the story? How about if the parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna?

Why is Ned so adamant to keep Jon's parentage a secret, when the mother is either dead or long forgotten common girl, and thus unnecessarily creating family conflict and hurting his wife and son in the process?

I know, this is why I don't think R+L=J is untrue, it's still a huge possibility, but so is him being Ned's son. I'm caught up between the two. Also Jon being Ashara's son could add up to the story; he could wield the sword Dawn or become the Sword of the Morning 2.0 or just to simply show Ned and Ashara's love or who knows what else. Honestly, even if Jon was Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, I think the whole reveal does more to affect the past events than the future ones. I don't think Jon will become king, his story line will be involved with the Others and the Wall.

[markg171]

There is if someone tipped them off that he was coming. Notice that there's no surprise from either side at seeing the other at the Tower. I think both parties knew that they'd meet the other.

As for the men staying outside the tower, I think we'd need to know more about the size of the tower and its structure before making judgment calls on that. It was small enough for Ned and Howland to pretty much dismantle by themselves; quite possibly, there wasn't enough room for everyone to stay inside of it. As for them keeping Lyanna prisoner ... she's a woman who's just given birth and is seriously ill. Where exactly would she be running off to?

There's no surprise as Eddard knew that those members of the KG still hadn't been sighted. The KG aren't surprised as like I said, we get the sense that the war has been over for a long period of time (Robert had already killed Rhaegar, Tywin sacked KL, Eddard ended the siege of Storm's End, Viserys and Rhaella had fled to Dragonstone). They'd been waiting for awhile and had probably heard that the war was lost, or found that out when Rhaegar never came back. They knew someone would come eventually as they were on the losing side and hadn't bent the knee to the new king.

As for someone tipping the KG members off, I don't see who possibly could have. Eddard leaves Robert at KL in disgust after how he treats the dead babies and goes to fight what most would probably have seen as a large and long battle as he was going to lift the siege at Storm's End. That ends quickly though as Tyrell and Redwyne choose to bend the knee instead of fighting. Eddard then leaves with 6 northerners and we find out he went to the TOJ. You'd have to have gotten word that the siege ended bloodlessly quickly, and then heard that Ned had slipped off instead of returning back to KL, and then send a message to the TOJ. And what ravens would be trained to send messages there? The logical assumption would be that the KG members weren't surprised as they had been waiting there a long time.

As to your last point, you have to assume that Lyanna had indeed given birth for that to be true.