"[Deity XYZ] is real!" - A response.

[CreativeName]

I'm certainly not the only one who noticed that we tend to get the usual "R'hollor is real" thread every second week or so. Hence, I've taken the liberty of cobbling a little something together as a response. It's a collection of interviews and Q&As with author GRRM that might be suitable to give us some perspective on the matter. Please pay special attention to the 5th and 6th quote.

((The video of quote number 6, which motivated me to post this topic in the first place, is fairly recent and should be interesting enough in its own right, regardless of the subject of the validity of fictional religions. It's a German/French documentary about Shae's actress Sibel Kekilli visiting George in Santa Fe. Don't worry, it's almost entirely in English. Here we get to see a side of George that's a little bit more private than his usual interviews, e.g. George introducing his workplace, figurines, minions, friends etc. to Sibel. The two hang out in various places in Santa Fe, besides attending the 'Jean Cocteau', George's movie theater.))

Wall of text incoming:

1.) So Spake Martin, April 06, 2008

Q: How important is religion and myth in your stories?

GRRM: Mythos is important and it can also be very difficult. An author's beliefs color the character, audience's beliefs color it. Easier for me to write a secular character or someone who mocks and insults the gods than it is to write a sincerely devout character. It's a secular society, especially our Science-Fiction / Fantasy readers.

2.) Entertainment Weekly, 2011

Q: There's a line in book 5 where a character says, "The gods are good." Jaime thinks, "You go on believing that." You talk about religion a lot in the stories, but what are your views?

GRRM: I suppose I'm a lapsed Catholic. You would consider me an atheist or agnostic. I find religion and spirituality fascinating. I would like to believe this isn't the end and there's something more, but I can't convince the rational part of me that that makes any sense whatsoever. That's what Tolkien left out - there's no priesthood, there's no temples; nobody is worshiping anything in Rings.

3.) io9, 2011

Q: There are several competing religions in this series now. Should we be wondering if some are more true than others? In a world with magic, is religion just magic with an extra layer of mythos?

GRRM: Well, the readers are certainly free to wonder about the validity of these religions, the truth of these religions, and the teachings of these religions. I'm a little leery of the word "true" - whether any of these religions are more true than others. I mean, look at the analogue of our real world. We have many religions, too. Are some of them more true than others?

I don't think any gods are likely to be showing up in Westeros, any more than they already do. We're not going to have one appearing, deus ex machina, to affect the outcomes of things, no matter how hard anyone prays. So the relation between the religions and the various magics that some people have here is something that the reader can try to puzzle out.

4.) Authors @Google, 2011

Three excerpts from George's considerably longer answer, taken out of context. (Please, view the video, if you want.) The comments are a bit sarcastic and ridiculing, admittedly. But here his true personal views are coming through more strongly, IMO.

youtube link (at 46:47)

GRRM: [...] So, if there was one culture where you did not die, I suspect that god would become very popular. [Laughter] They [i.e. religions] will promise us eternal life, but... whatever. [Audience chuckles] [...]

GRRM: [...] But they had the fundamental belief, a dualist religion, that there were two gods, a good god and an evil god. And the world we live in was created by the evil god, which... when you look at the world, particularly the Medieval world, it's kinda persuasive. You know, what kind of good god would create that kind of crap, you know? What kind of good god sits around saying, "Hmm, leprosy. Good idea." [Laughter] "Let's give them leprosy. Hmmm..." [Laughter] [...]

GRRM: [...] Yeah, all the religions are based... This is my general philosophy for fantasy: Base it in reality. But then get a little imaginative. Rework the elements, put this with that and add your own touch to it. But the grounding in reality, I think, gives it a certain verisimilitude and plausibilty. Whereas just entirely made-up religions that are unconnected to anything... It's much more difficult to make them plausible.

5.) Q&A in Australia, GRRM and Michelle Fairley, 2013

youtube link (at 1:18:14)

Q: Hi. We've seen with Bran and also with the Red Queen the Power of the Lord of Light and also the Old Gods. But is there a particular reason why we haven't heard from the Seven, yet?

GRRM: ... I'm not sure what you mean by 'heard from'. You know, a postcard, a telegram...? [Laughter from audience] [Michelle Fairley: E-mail?]

None of these gods have been on stage. I mean, people believe in them. Just as people believe in the Seven. But... I don't intend to ever actually bring a god on stage and have him interacting with people.

[!!!] I'm not sure any of the gods in Westeros are real. I'm not sure that any of the gods in real world are real. I'm a 'doubter' in that sense.

Which is not to undermine... Which is not to say that people [in the books] who believe in them don't believe in them. I mean, in the books I think the Seven can be seen more strongly in some of the Davos chapters. I recall this section where Davos lives through the Battle of the Blackwater and is found clutching to this rock and he really does feel that the Mother... He had a vision of the Mother and she appeared to him and he feels that the Seven are instructing him to kill Melisandre, so... His faith in the Seven is driving some of his beliefs. And Catelyn in the books also has a certain religious faith in the Seven.

But... Other than that it works on a more thematic and symbolic function than a literal one.

6.) "Durch die Nacht mit Sibel Kekilli und George R.R. Martin" (Through the night with S.K. and GRRM) - Arte (German TV), 2014/15

After a few drinks with Sibel, George seems to have lost his usual guardedness when talking about the subject. He puts it more bluntly than ever before.

youtube link (at 29:32)

GRRM: Born in Bayonne, New Jersey, I was raised catholic. But I was never really a true believer. [sibel: Me neither.] And I stopped going to church when I was in college.

[!!!] We have to adopt these laws 'cause, you know, an invisible guy who lives in the sky said so. [Laughs] I don't... I don't get it, you know? It just seems to me... How can any intelligent person believe that stuff?" [sibel: I know!]

I remember when I was 12 or 13 years old I had - I guess - my first great crisis of faith. It was around the time of Vatican 2. Pope John XXIII, who was a great pope, reformed the Catholic church, liberalized it in many ways. And they abolished the prohibition about eating meat on friday. In the Catholic church that I was raised in, eating meat on friday was a mortal sin. They made differences between mortal sins and venial sins. And if you died with a mortal sin on your soul that you hadn't confessed and been absolved for, you went to hell forever. So, I remember after Vatican 2 I said: 'Let me get this straight, sister. If I ate meat last friday I would burn in hell forever. But if I ate meat this friday I'm good.' [Laughs] No problem! [Laughs] The pope said so. I'm okay.

Taken the above statements from George into account, it seems crystal clear to me what we can logically infer from all of this about the nature of religions and deities in the ASoIaF universe. In a nutshell, the author himself basically tells us in a slightly more polite manner:

"Frankly, I think religions are bull. Fascinating, but bull, nonetheless. My fictional religions and deities have their basis in reality. And since my world view greatly affects my writing, the fictional religions and deities in ASoI&F are meant to be rubbish, as well. Guys! It's a fantasy! It's a fantasy! It's just magic!"

If this is not enough to convince people, I don't know what else is. Of course, feel free to draw your own conclusions.

Quotes from the books:

Catelyn had more faith in a maester’s learning than a septon’s prayers.

"The Seven have never answered my prayers. Perhaps the old gods will."

"I stopped believing in gods the day I saw the Windproud break up across the bay. Any gods so monstrous as to drown my mother and father would never have my worship, I vowed. In King's Landing, the High Septon would prattle at me of how all justice and goodness flowed from the Seven, but all I ever saw of either was made by men."

"If you do not believe in gods-"

"-why trouble with this new one?" Stannis broke in. "I have asked myself as well. I know little and care less of gods, but the red priestess has power."

Almost a prayer . . . but was it the god he was invoking, the Father Above whose towering gilded likeness glimmered in the candlelight across the sept? Or was he praying to the corpse that lay before him? Does it matter? They never listened, either one.

"The gods are good," his hostage said, uncertainly. You go on believing that. Jaime let Honor feel his spurs.

"Give me priests who are fat and corrupt and cynical," he told Haldon, "the sort who like to sit on soft satin cushions, nibble sweetmeats, and diddle little boys. It’s the ones who believe in gods who make the trouble."

"The gods are blind. And men see only what they wish."

The Drowned God did not answer. He seldom did. That was the trouble with gods.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Good thread.

I often see people saying "The Seven are bs, but Red God, Old Gods, and maybe the Drowned God are real because they have real power"...

IMO magic is there for the taking, you only have to know the secrets... If Mel had said Stannis' magic sword was a gift from the Warrior, it would glow just the same.

[a_motherf'ndragon]

I'm certainly not the only one who noticed that we tend to get the usual "R'hollor is real" thread every second week or so. Hence, I've taken the liberty of cobbling a little something together as a response. It's a collection of interviews and Q&As with author GRRM that might be suitable to give us some perspective on the matter. Please pay special attention to the 5th and 6th quote.

((The video of quote number 6, which motivated me to post this topic in the first place, is fairly recent and should be interesting enough in its own right, regardless of the subject of the validity of fictional religions. It's a German/French documentary about Shae's actress Sibel Kekilli visiting George in Santa Fe. Don't worry, it's almost entirely in English. Here we get to see a side of George that's a little bit more private than his usual interviews, e.g. George introducing his workplace, figurines, minions, friends etc. to Sibel. The two hang out in various places in Santa Fe, besides attending the 'Jean Cocteau', George's movie theater.))

Wall of text incoming:

Taken the above statements from George into account, it seems crystal clear to me what we can logically infer from all of this about the nature of religions and deities in the ASoIaF universe. In a nutshell, the author himself basically tells us in a slightly more polite manner:

"Frankly, I think religions are bull. Fascinating, but bull, nonetheless. My fictional religions and deities have their basis in reality. And since my world view greatly affects my writing, the fictional religions and deities in ASoI&F are meant to be rubbish, as well. Guys! It's a fantasy! It's a fantasy! It's just magic!"

If this is not enough to convince people, I don't know what else is. Of course, feel free to draw your own conclusions.

Quotes from the books:

I feel that you have summed up GRRM's opinions well, I am still conflicted however as Varys's genitals were sacrificed to the flames of a Red Priest in which he heard a voice speak from the flames. Now if the world is all magic and no divinity then who was that voice Varys heard? I feel this was a oversight George made trying to explain Varys's hate/fear of magic, but it kind of slipped an embodiement of a deity represented in the series, which he claims he never intended to do yet there it is. If that was not the Lord of Light, then who?

[Make Shadowbabies Not War]

I feel that you have summed up GRRM's opinions well, I am still conflicted however as Varys's genitals were sacrificed to the flames of a Red Priest in which he heard a voice speak from the flames. Now if the world is all magic and no divinity then who was that voice Varys heard? I feel this was a oversight George made trying to explain Varys's hate/fear of magic, but it kind of slipped an embodiement of a deity represented in the series, which he claims he never intended to do yet there it is. If that was not the Lord of Light, then who?

Let's just say Bloodraven... He seems to get the credit for most stuff that happens around the world, why not load another one onto the bandwagon?

On topic, I think that magic is real, but its use is often misinterpreted as being from a religious entity.

[CreativeName]

I feel that you have summed up GRRM's opinions well, I am still conflicted however as Varys's genitals were sacrificed to the flames of a Red Priest in which he heard a voice speak from the flames. Now if the world is all magic and no divinity then who was that voice Varys heard? I feel this was a oversight George made trying to explain Varys's hate/fear of magic, but it kind of slipped an embodiement of a deity represented in the series, which he claims he never intended to do yet there it is. If that was not the Lord of Light, then who?

You mean this?

"Yet I still dream of that night, my lord. Not of the sorcerer, nor his blade, nor even the way my manhood shriveled as it burned. I dream of the voice. The voice from the flames. Was it a god, a demon, some conjurers trick? I could not tell you, and I know all the tricks. All I can say for a certainty is that he called it, and it answered, and since that day I have hated magic and all those who practice it. [...]"

- Unreliable narrator: We hear this story from a man who (1) lived through a traumatic event which was (2) way back when he was a child. Our mind is great at altering memories, especially if it involves a scene where your dick got chopped off years ago. Look at an example from the real world. When the police collects eye-witness accounts, they will most likely hear a more or less different tale from each of the witnesses.

"Kinda average height."

"No, no, the robber was really tall."

"Well, the driver in the red car signaled that he was about to leave the parking spot. The other car hit the breaks first, and for a moment it looked as if he was about to let him out, but then he accelerated again and crashed into him."

"He didn't signal at all. He just left the parking spot and completely ignored the other one's right of way. He had no chance of reacting in time."

- As Varys himself points out, all he remembers is that he heard a voice. Based on what we know, you need to have some kind of vocal chords and lungs to be able to speak. In ASoI&F, there's also the possibilty of communicating via mind, somewhat like telepathy. We have seen this with Greenseers (Bloodraven), Warlocks (Pyat Pree) or glass candles (Quaithe), for example. So far, every mystery ever solved in the story has turned out to be something that is not brought about by a divine agency. There's no need to bring a god into the equation when we can explain something simply with magical abilities.

"What feeds a dragons fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a mans dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?"

[Ser Harly of Southwell]

I came to this same conclusion on my second read through. There are no god's just powers in the universe. I wonder where Planetos and it's life came from though. Evolution seems unlikely. How would dragons evolve? This world isn't completely naturalistic. Must have been some magic that started it all. Ahhh, we'll likely never know. :dunno:

[LordStoneheart]

Wonderful compilation. I've been saying this for awhile, so hopefully it will catch on. ;)

[Joe Blackfyre]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_the_Author

Martin can say he is "not sure" about gods forever and a day. What we have to judge as "reality" and "direct canon" within the universe of ASOIAF is (and can only be) what is written down in the books. And so far, despite many jokes against believers by the main protagonists in keeping with the cynical nature of the series, the books have not directly disproved the existance of gods. Therefore yes believing in gods is speculation and unconfirmed but not directly illogical and not clearly wrong.

Does this mean athiests cant enjoy the book and say they believe there are no gods? Of course not! Sceptic away! Evolution and big bang and good times roll!

But so far, based on the information in the books and the lack of direct confirmation or denial by the author, religious posters are no more right or wrong in their posts than non-believers.

If Martin does a Edgar Rice Burroughs or L. Frank Baum and reveals at the end that all the religious stuff is a hoax to manipulate gullible people, that's fine and his prerogative. He's kind of made that ending harder for himself by having so many different religions and magical forces in his world. And of course, if magic responds to the wishes of the magician and has the ability to move them in certain directions (Melisandre's fire visions, the exact same number direwolf puppies for the same number of Starks) then it might have elements of godly sentience anyway.

And you could also say that with so magic flying around sorcerers in the ASOIAF world aren't that far off from becoming small gods....

Anyway, that's my piece said. I'm out of this thread, everyone go nuts. :laugh:

[LordStoneheart]

JB, it's not about whether or not someone is an atheist. I lean in that direction, and I can tell you that I can enjoy religious texts and fantasy novels that have gods. My favorite work of GRRM is a fantasy piece in which there are seven very real gods involved. But there is more reason to believe that in asoiaf there are no sentient deities and the religions are just belief systems shaped by cultures and nothing more. Especially when GRRM basically says that in the fifth quote.

[I swear by Ice and Fire]

Yea I also believe there are no real gods. Just people who knows the secret of wielding magic.

However it would be extremely cool if we saw some semi-divine creatures.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

They all are to the believers .

[Lady Whiskers Outlaws Beet]

Let's just say Bloodraven... He seems to get the credit for most stuff that happens around the world, why not load another one onto the bandwagon?

On topic, I think that magic is real, but its use is often misinterpreted as being from a religious entity.

- As Varys himself points out, all he remembers is that he heard a voice. Based on what we know, you need to have some kind of vocal chords and lungs to be able to speak. In ASoI&F, there's also the possibilty of communicating via mind, somewhat like telepathy. We have seen this with Greenseers (Bloodraven), Warlocks (Pyat Pree) or glass candles (Quaithe), for example. So far, every mystery ever solved in the story has turned out to be something that is not brought about by a divine agency. There's no need to bring a god into the equation when we can explain something simply with magical abilities.

This.

Also, the thing about magic in a fantasy work is that it is self explanatory. How did the magic work? It just is. It's magic.

There are people, this is where I try to tread carefully, for whom religion has the same quality. God exists because God just is. Humans ask questions about the nature and meaning of life, the world and the stars in the sky, we dig deeper and form schools of thoughts about how the universe works. Religions and supernatural beliefs are the earlier, older ways of explaining natural phenomenons, but we dug deeper to find better explanations to fit into our understanding and so now we have knowledge of maths, philosophy, physics, etc. (in less than 8000 years!!) but I digress.

My point being, if someone subcribes to a religion that worships dragons, they would see dragons as divine deities. For others, a dragon is a scaly animal with wings that breathes fire.

[GallowsKnight]

I'm not overly religious. I don't believe there are necessarily gods in ASIOAF.

But I find it interesting every time it's discussed something like this happens

"Where's the proof of gods"

"Prophecy, animated shadows, fire swords, resurrection from death"

"Pfff that's all just magic, where's the real proof?"

Like magic is commonplace and fully explainable.

[Jo498]

I find the treatment of religion rather disappointing in ASoIaF. Noone really seems to care, it seems a mere formality (or with the Old Gods/Trees strictly personal meditation) and none of the PoV characters seems religious (except Melisandre who has only one or two chapters). On the other hand, the R'hllor faith is important for the plot and the Seven are often mentioned. But it all seems quite shallow and inconsequential.

Bakker at least tries do it somewhat plausibly.

[Mikkel]

Stannis sums it up for me:

"I have asked myself as well. I know little and care less of gods, but the red priestess has power."

Which is what I always say when this question comes up. Some of the priests and priestesses have power, some (or all) of them believe it comes from their god, but that doesn't mean they are correct about the source of their magic. In many ways, these are more like spells and sorceries that are concealed or misinterpreted as religious rituals - but the spells don't care if you're going "abra cadabra" or "oh lordie lord have mercy on me" while you're doing them, the end result is the same.

[LordStoneheart]

Catelyn and Davos are quite grounded in their faith, and both the old and new gods are important to the plot. My guess would be that he wanted to include religion for realism and character development & motive but didn't want to be seen as critiquing religion as a whole, so the only faith that is obviously destructive is Rhllorism.

[Mikkel]

Catelyn and Davos are quite grounded in their faith, and both the old and new gods are important to the plot. My guess would be that he wanted to include religion for realism and character development & motive but didn't want to be seen as critiquing religion as a whole, so the only faith that is obviously destructive is Rhllorism.

I would say that Rhllorism is mostly "destructive" now that it has one or more active, and almost fanatically devout adherents in positions of relative power. A few years ago, when it was mostly about fat, drunken Thoros messing around in King's Landing with whores and wildfire-infused blades, it was nothing like that. It doesn't appear to be particularly destructive in Essos, either - though that may be a matter of time only. Benerro, Moqorro and friends are definitely up to something.

I'll happily concede the point that within the timeframe of the books, it's by far the most aggressive religion we see, though. Unlike the other religions, it doesn't seem there's nearly as much room for co-existence as there is with, say, the Seven and the Old Gods, but then those have had thousands of years to get used to each other - Rhllorism is new in Westeros, and it's so far the only religion to identify that something big and bad is coming for humankind. A fair point could be made to count Bloodraven and/or the Children of the Forest as the "Old Gods" (or representatives thereof), so maybe they have cottoned on, as well, but they don't seem to employ clergy in the same way that the Seven or Rhllor does, so it's less obvious where their allegiances lie, and exactly why it's so important that Bran is there.

Not that I'm going to defend aggression or destruction in the name of any religion, it's one of the biggest problems plaguing our own world, after all.

[Lord Varys]

Considering that George has invented a world with religions that resembes our on in that regard it will be impossible 'to prove that no gods exist' in there. Just as the mere thought of disproving the entity of any given entity in the real world makes no sense at all. But it is quite clear that George's view on religion as a whole is that it is a bunch of crap.

He shows religions as the earthly institutions they are, as plotters, and power brokers, the same as the non-religious leaders. And just because Melisandre does appear to believe what she is preaching doesn't mean her belief is based on anything real. Magic works in Martinworld, but that does not mean that spells are caused by divine interventions of one sort or the other. In fact, this makes little sense as there are secular sorcerers (Qyburn, Marwyn, Pyat Pree, the Undying, the atheistic Valyrians) as well as pious ones like the Red Priests.

But religion in Martinworld can actually draw a connection between miracles and gods because there is magic in this world. We in the real world can't - which means that the average R'hllorian following Mel or Thoros is actually better justified in his belief in that god than any real world individual who felt the presence of 'Jesus' or 'the Holy Ghost'. Thoros followers have actually seen people rise from the dead - nobody in the real world has ever seen such a thing.

[Anythingatall]

Good thread.

I often see people saying "The Seven are bs, but Red God, Old Gods, and maybe the Drowned God are real because they have real power"...

I have never given it much thought but I can see where those people are coming from. The Faith of the Seven is much more obviously 'man made' than the other faiths. It seems more prescriptive and interested in using faith as a method of social control. I don't necessarily agree that the drowned God et al are real however I do think that TFotS is much more akin to real world organised religion were as the others are something else entirely.

[Make Shadowbabies Not War]

I would say that Rhllorism is mostly "destructive" now that it has one or more active, and almost fanatically devout adherents in positions of relative power. A few years ago, when it was mostly about fat, drunken Thoros messing around in King's Landing with whores and wildfire-infused blades, it was nothing like that. It doesn't appear to be particularly destructive in Essos, either - though that may be a matter of time only. Benerro, Moqorro and friends are definitely up to something.

I'll happily concede the point that within the timeframe of the books, it's by far the most aggressive religion we see, though. Unlike the other religions, it doesn't seem there's nearly as much room for co-existence as there is with, say, the Seven and the Old Gods, but then those have had thousands of years to get used to each other - Rhllorism is new in Westeros, and it's so far the only religion to identify that something big and bad is coming for humankind. A fair point could be made to count Bloodraven and/or the Children of the Forest as the "Old Gods" (or representatives thereof), so maybe they have cottoned on, as well, but they don't seem to employ clergy in the same way that the Seven or Rhllor does, so it's less obvious where their allegiances lie, and exactly why it's so important that Bran is there.

Not that I'm going to defend aggression or destruction in the name of any religion, it's one of the biggest problems plaguing our own world, after all.

I agree with all of this, especially the bolded. The importance of mentioning the timeframe aspect is that Westeros' history tells us that the First Men and Andals both tried to use war to enforce their religions onto the continent. Of course eventually the First Men accepted the Old Gods and the Andals quieted down, but from this history it is logical to assume that eventually Rhllor worshipers will coexist in Westeros just s they do in Essos.