Astronomy of Planetos: Fingerprints of the Dawn

[LordImp]

Maybe the Stark's did not lead the Others then , but i think they will now. Bran or Jon will lead the North( including the Others) against the forces of Daenerys.

[Mithras]

I must confess that I feel this Amethyst Empress vs. Bloodstone Emperor feud will repeat itself in Dany vs Jon. Dany is obviously the Amethyst Empress Reborn. Dany dreamed that she was fighting the Usurper’s host armored in ice. Jon dreamed that he was armored in ice with a burning sword in his hand.

Now let me ask you: If you were the High Priest(ess) of the Church of Starry Wisdom, what would be the greatest trick you could have pulled out?

Why, replacing the roles of the Villain and the Hero.

What if the Amethyst Empress was the one who committed those atrocities and the Bloodstone Emperor sacrificed his personal honor for the greater good in casting her down? After all, the reigns of the emperors were growing shorter due to people giving themselves to sins. Can the royalty be excluded from committing those sins? On the contrary, the emperors themselves should be the leaders in sins. For example because of the glaring example of the pharaohs, the common people of Egypt practiced incest heavily.

So, the guy who put an end to this corrupt rule is now accursed as a Usurper. Sounds very devilish and fitting to the Church of Starry Wisdom.

I think due the never ending wars and betrayals Dany has yet to see, she will become Maegor the Second by the time she comes North to face this last false pretender (Jon). So, Jon will cast her down by taking Drogon from her. A khal who cannot ride is no khal. When Dany loses her mount, she will lose the legitimacy of her rule.

[LmL]

It's an interesting "what if," but the reason why I find this implausible is because of the astronomy. The Bloodstone Emperor / Azor Ahai represents the comet, very clearly, and the Am Empress / Nissa Nissa the second moon. The moon did not attack the comet. There were eight wanderers and magical / seasonal harmony. The ninth wanderer, the uninvited guest, was the one who cast down the eighth. The Am Em is the eighth ruler of the GEotD, the Bloodstone E was the ninth. The role reversal doesn't fit the pattern.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

The Religion of the Dawn section blew me away.

That's some real research. Mad respect.

I'd suggest a TL;DR section maybe? I mean, I read the whole thing, but sometimes long posts kill peoples enthusiasm.

And oh god, Darth Hightower was not something I ever thought I needed.

[LmL]

what is TL:DR? I know the TL is too long; that should be my middle name probably. What is the DR? is it ironic that I am unaware of this term? I get that feeling ;) I figured by breaking things into sections (12 regular sections plus one intro paragraph = 12+1 = LH & crew) people could just go one section at a time as they desire, that's probably the best I can do for brevity. I make my theories as short and clear as I can, it's just a very macro world building picture we are trying to uncover. It's a big topic, and I feel the need to prove things as conclusively as I can for all the skeptics who don't believe any theories besides R+L=J were hidden in the text. ;)

Glad you found your way over Ramsay's Penguins, and glad you enjoyed it. The Maiden / Lion of Night duality was really interesting to delve into. The Jaguar God of Terrestrial Fire / Night Sun is a badass, as is Itsapapalotl, the obsidian claw butterfly. Those meoamerican deities are the ones I would pick to win a fight with other deities. Ye gods, those are some wonderfully terrifying concepts. It's so cool that George mined ideas like that to create in world-legend and religion. It makes the story so much richer. if we somehow had a global cataclysm and the only books left to the survivors were ASOAIF, we'd have a pretty good time-capsule catalog of all of the mythological archetypes of human culture. As a new Bible, it would do very well for relating philosophical truths and esoteric concepts, as well as basic morality and values.

ASOAIF is a true work of genius, a real magnum opus. Every day that I dig deeper into the text I am more and more awestruck by the work put in here. There sheer amount of double meaning that runs through entire chapters - he's basically telling two stories at the same time. Wow. This is the real reason why it takes 5 years to write a book, I am thinking.

[Han Snow]

Just don't fall into an apophenic state. Some time ago, Ser Creighton had a very popular Corn thread theory, an interesting read, but he fell victim to apophenia early on. I even posted this same warning before the Man (George) himself debunked the theory. Sometimes a coincidence is just a coincidence. Though yes, there are loads of double meanings and subtle hints, but I'd be vary of being certain in some things, at least until the next book comes out. Being cautious is never a bad thing.

[LmL]

Just don't fall into an apophenic state. Some time ago, Ser Creighton had a very popular Corn thread theory, an interesting read, but he fell victim to apophenia early on. I even posted this same warning before the Man (George) himself debunked the theory. Sometimes a coincidence is just a coincidence. Though yes, there are loads of double meanings and subtle hints, but I'd be vary of being certain in some things, at least until the next book comes out. Being cautious is never a bad thing.

That's why I putting all this up for scrutiny on the boards before starting a tumbler blog - so that if any connections I am making aren't really there, they will fall apart under scrutiny. The patterns that are there will only grow stronger under scrutiny. So far, none of the major premises of my celestial scenario have fallen apart of even been significantly damaged - quote the opposite. The harder I look. The more I keep finding the sun killing the moon, splitting comets, etc etc. I think the detailed chapter break downs I am going to do once I finish laying out the entire theory will clinch it for many people. George has written many chapters as extended metaphors, it seems, for this whole Dawn Age / Long Night timeline of events, especially in ADWD. I understand the word of caution but I am seeing that this actually goes farther than anyone imagined. George is a fiendishly clever bastard. He's hidden layers and layers of secrets and metaphors. We are only just beginning to see the bigger picture he's put behind this work.

[LmL]

Hey Mithras, just wanted add a word of thanks for reminding me of the Dany dream where she fighting the usurper of the trident, whose warriors are armored in black ice. I have been pondering he black ice in the last couple days, and this ties a few things together for me.

The famous Jon dream about being armored in black ice:

That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat. Some had spears and some had bows and some had axes. Others rode on chariots made of bones, drawn by teams of dogs as big as ponies. Giants lumbered amongst them, forty feet tall, with mauls the size of oak trees. Stand fast, Jon Snow called. Throw them back. He stood atop the Wall, alone. Flame, he cried, feed them flame, but there was no one to pay heed. They are all gone. They have abandoned me . Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. Snow, an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as shed appeared. The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. I am the Lord of Winterfell, Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. Snow, the bird cried.

First off, hello red sword. That's Azor Ahai's red sword, of course. What's interesting is that Jon kills his love, Ygritte, and the rightful Lord of Winterfell, Robb, followed by Jon declaring himself the Lord of Winterfell. Usurpation, ho! This is yet another confirmation that Azor Ahai was the Bloodstone Emperor, the original usurper. And just to tighten that even further, both Jon and the Usurper's troops in Dany's dream are armored in black ice, again identifying The red sword nearer as the Bloodstone Emperor, the Usurper.

Interestingly, Theon notices that there is black ice on the battlements of Winterfell, with its white snowman sentries. This may be a tie between the wall, Winterfell, and Azor Ahai. Winterfell may well have been the original outpost against the Others.

Then we have this lesser known black ice quote:

Jon Snow turned away. The last light of the sun had begun to fade. He watched the cracks along the Wall go from red to grey to black, from streaks of fire to rivers of black ice. Down below, Lady Melisandre would be lighting her nightfire and chanting, Lord of Light, defend us, for the night is dark and full of terrors . Winter is coming, Jon said at last, breaking the awkward silence, and with it the white walkers. The Wall is where we stop them. The Wall was made to stop them but the Wall must be manned.

JON, ADWD

The wall is a sword metaphor many times in the book. In the cracks of the wall, we have red streaks of fire turn to rivers of ice. Red streaks of fire are meteors, and the rivers of black ice seems to be triggered by the meteors. Now I've proposed that at least one of the three moon meteors landed in the sea or by the sea, causing tsunamis and flooding. This would have taken place in the darkness of the Long Night - a "dark tide" or a "black tide," and in the north, it would have been an icy black tide. We know that the Rhoyne froze about halfway down during the Long Night, so really rivers of black ice could have been anywhere north of the neck or even further south. Thus, these rivers of black ice represent the flooding of the sea on to the land during the long night, caused by the impact of at least one meteor in the ocean.

Now, this is opening up a can of worms here, but I think the rivers of black ice are equivalent to the dark tide or black tide which pops up in very meaningful passages in ADWD. Mel sees the dark tide washing over Eastwatch. The wights at the Fist of the First Men are described as a tide of corpses. The trees in Asha's Deepwood Mott battle are a green tide, and that chapter is filled with moon drowning imagery. Word searching just "tide" in ADWD was quite fruitful, really. It's used several times in conjunction with bringing a "dragon" to Westeros, with both Dany and fAegon. Dany represents the second moon, the Nissa Nissa moon, and we hear that "woe betide the lover who fails to satisfy her. She gives her body to men to take their souls in thrall. The wrath of the second moon is a woeful tide. She gave her body, true enough, and as the Drowned God, she takes men for thralls as well.

The key to understanding this link between the dark tide / black ice and the moon meteors is this idea of the Fire Moon goddess becoming the Drowned God. This is one of the oldest stories in mythology, a goddess abducted to the underworld. It should be noted that the gender of these deities is sometimes relevant and sometimes not, so don't get to hung up on the god / goddess thing.

The final piece of this is the bloody Deep Ones - the Merlings, Selkies, etc. The drowning of the goddess seems to have triggered the black tide - and the Deep Ones came with it, I am becoming increasingly certain. Crowfoods Daughter has identified Elenei as a mermaid through studying the linguistics of her name, and the simple fact that she is a daughter of storm and sea. I believe that Durran Godsgrief and the Grey King taking a mermaid to wife are both metaphors for pulling down the moon goddess. But they also did mate with Deep Ones, or more accurately, the Deep Ones raped the people and took them as thralls. Somehow, the manifestation of the Deep Ones on the land was triggered by the moon meteor landing in the ocean. Did it trigger mutations or magic? Probably.

Consider Petyr Baelish's sigil. It used to be the stone head of the Titan, eyes afire on a green field. Sounds a lot like a flaming stone meteor, as the meteor shower is often compared to eyes (the thousand eyes of BR and others). Petyr changes it to a Mockingbird. Again, Crowfoods Daughter comes with the Mermaid lore, and it turns out Mockingbirds lure travelers to their dooms, just as sirens and mermaids are often thought to do. Plus, Petyr is sailing on the boat "The Merling King," a nice touch. So, Petyr's sigil tells the same story - moon meteors turning into a tide of fucking Deep Ones. Pointy-tooted, rapey bastards that they are.

She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

The eyeless face recalls the Titan head sigil, but with no fire in the sockets anymore - only blood. The bloodstone, stone drenched in the moon goddess' blood. This also recalls Bran's vision of the Mountain, with his black empty hood gushing black blood (the Mountain is a moon metaphor, separate topic). Then the towers by the sea, likely Eastwatch as Mel believes, overcome by the dark tide rising from the depths. We saw the dead things in the water at Hardhome, so Modesty Lannister may be right that those are Deep Ones in some form (perhaps undead). Shadow skulls turn to mist - the skull represents the moon meteor, which I have directly identified with enabling shadow fire magic via the Bloodstone Emperor. The shadows turn to mist, indicating the sea mists, then bodies locked in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Sounds kind of like sex, kind of like fighting - this is rape. Deep Ones rape. And the. We have dragons wheeling in the sky to let us know that all of this happened together. The Bloodstone Emperor came with dragons at the same time as Others and Deep Ones manifested, all during the Long Night. Gods, what a shit-astrophe.

There's a lot more to this - the Wayward Bride chapter is loaded, with Asha playing the role of the moon, the trees are a green tide (representing the floods and Deep Ones), and moon-drowning imagery is everywhere. It's all over the chapter of ASOS where Sansa and Petyr land on the Fingers and meet Lysa. Both of those chapters are getting full breakdowns eventually... I have a list growing of all these chapters which seem to be extended metaphors, many in ADWD but a few in ASOS and AFFC.

[LmL]

Also, having just bought some bloodstone this weekend, something occurred to me. It varies widely in color, from light greens and greys flecked with red to a deep, dark green with flecks of red. The most common color is the deep green, which occasionally can be so dark spas to look black, but really, it's a dark green. It actually makes me think of the deep ocean - and the flecks of red are so distinct and bright that it kind of reminds me of an underwater magma vent in the deep ocean, which of course fits perfectly with the drowned fire goddess imagery. Not sure if George is thinking of this, since it seems clear he chose bloodstone for its many symbolic correlations which he's using, but it's a nice idea and fits with the big picture.

[LmL]

I found a good planet and two moons sighting in the Davos Shadowchaser / Edric Storm chapter:

His companions kept pace, matching their strides to his own. The Bastard of Nightsong had a pox- ravaged face and an air of tattered chivalry; Ser Gerald Gower was broad, bluff, and blond; Ser Andrew Estermont stood a head taller, with a spade- shaped beard and shaggy brown eye- brows. They were all good men in their own ways, Davos thought. And they will all be dead men soon, if this nights work goes badly.

Bastard of Nightsong: "Nightsong" implies the story of the Long Night, pox ravaged face is akin to craters on a moon, one riddled with projectiles, and tattered chivalry speak of being torn asunder. He's smaller than the other two men - here we have the small fire moon, which identifies with dark lightbringer, red sword of the sunset and nightfall.

Ser Gerold Gower: bluff speaks of stone, blond means pale stone, and broad implies a bigger moon. This is the Ice Moon, which has a core of stone and identifies with the sword Dawn, made of pale stone of the comet (Pale Stone Tower at Starfall too).

Ser Andrew Estermont: "spade" implies digging and earth, shaggy implies an animal, and brown the earth again. He's a head taller because he represents the earth, bigger than the two moons. The spade calls to mind the leaf shaped blades of the first men, perhaps.

[Equilibrium]

There's a lot more to this - the Wayward Bride chapter is loaded, with Asha playing the role of the moon, the trees are a green tide (representing the floods and Deep Ones), and moon-drowning imagery is everywhere. It's all over the chapter of ASOS where Sansa and Petyr land on the Fingers and meet Lysa. Both of those chapters are getting full breakdowns eventually... I have a list growing of all these chapters which seem to be extended metaphors, many in ADWD but a few in ASOS and AFFC.

One of the most prominent supporters of Asha, House Blacktyde!

[Equilibrium]

Baelor Blacktyde, worships Seven, wants peace, was on Vic side, switched to Asha, Euron not happy cuts him in seven pieces.

Joron I Blacktyde, called Maidensbane, who captured Gyles II Gardener and cut his corpse to pieces for bait

[LmL]

One of the most prominent supporters of Asha, House Blacktyde!

Indeed! Looking at their wiki page, wow is it loaded:

Joron I Blacktyde, called Maidensbane, who captured Gyles II Gardener and cut his corpse to pieces for bait and swept off the Arbor, carrying off every woman under thirty.

Black tide is associated with the death of maidens, fitting. Capturing a Gardener King and cutting him up implies the death of plant life, and probably something about Oldtown and Garth as well.

Beron Blacktyde, known as Blind Beron, is one of the many Drowned Men who adds their voices to Aeron Greyjoy's calling for the kingsmoot, a gathering of all ironborn captains and lords, to elect a new King of the Iron Islands after Balon's death. Before the kingsmoot, Lord Baelor Blacktyde comes to see Rodrik Harlaw at Ten Towers but departs soon after to the island of Old Wyk, where the kingsmoot is going to ocurr. Baelor thinks that Euron Greyjoy, another candidate, will descend upon the other candidates and kill them all, just like Urron Greyiron had done thousands of years before.[4]

Blind Beron the drowned man calls to mind the eyeless skulls of Mel's vision, the eyeless heads stuck on spears the Weeper leaves Jon, the golden skulls on spears of the Golden company, the Titan's head sigil - all comet metaphors - as well as the one-eye motif associated with the God's eye and dragons (Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Meraxes, etc). I also find the Urron Greyiron story significant, because that was when 13 Kings were killed at Nagga's hill, a petrified weirwoods grove, which speaks of blood sacrifice, and may be a clue to the Dawn Age events on the Iron Islands.

[LmL]

Baelor Blacktyde, worships Seven, wants peace, was on Vic side, switched to Asha, Euron not happy cuts him in seven pieces.

Joron I Blacktyde, called Maidensbane, who captured Gyles II Gardener and cut his corpse to pieces for bait

Haha great minds search Wikipedia alike :)

[LmL]

We've also got his ship Nightflyer, hmmm, what does that imply?

Interesting contrast between the Maidensbane Blacktyde cutting up a Gardener into seven pieces and Baelor Blacktyde being held captive for eight years in Oldtown - 7's and 8's again. Following the idea that the black ice armor of Jon in his Azor / BSE dream means that the BSE / AA had the Deep Ones (the black tide) on his side, or that he rode the black tide to war, what does it mean that Oldtown took the black tide hostage for 8 years and converted it to their purpose?

Taking a foe or a foe's weapon and making it your own is a very Grey King kind of thing to do. This makes me think of the stories of the Pirate King who used to live on Whispering Sound. That's most likely the Grey King. There's a big connection between the BSE and Grey King and Oldtown and this black tide. I'm sure we can get to the bottom of it if we try.

[Equilibrium]

Haha great minds search Wikipedia alike :)

Indeed they do.

To be honest, and you know I am you staunchest supporter, was reading your interpreting philosophy in that massive post and thought, well not everything is there on purpose, and then read black tide, and hhhm, that sounds familiar and very very related to what you were saying.

[Equilibrium]

We've also got his ship Nightflyer, hmmm, what does that imply?

Interesting contrast between the Maidensbane Blacktyde cutting up a Gardener into seven pieces and Baelor Blacktyde being held captive for eight years in Oldtown - 7's and 8's again. Following the idea that the black ice armor of Jon in his Azor / BSE dream means that the BSE / AA had the Deep Ones (the black tide) on his side, or that he rode the black tide to war, what does it mean that Oldtown took the black tide hostage for 8 years and converted it to their purpose?

They did take Eight (years) to make Seven (believer)

[LmL]

Indeed they do.

To be honest, and you know I am you staunchest supporter, was reading your interpreting philosophy in that massive post and thought, well not everything is there on purpose, and then read black tide, and hhhm, that sounds familiar and very very related to what you were saying.

Which massive post was this?

You know it's funny, occasionally people warn me of seeing patterns that aren't there (chasing shadows, if you will), which is totally valid for people like myself digging through everything for double meanings. But thing is, I have this thought all the time. I see a pattern and think, naw, that's probably nothing, and then you get several strong clues in a row. Then I go back over and re-read, I compare the passage to others, and if it holds up, I will talk about it in a comment or theory... and then everyone else gets to scrutinize it. If it still holds up after weeks of board scritiny, and is further corroborated by more text... Well that's how I get to the place I am at, anyway.

I'm not really concerned about shadow chasing at this point, since we are really just looking for the same set of patterns and symbols over and over again and continually finding them. Shadow chaser connections sort themselves out, falling apart under scrutiny. At this point I am more focused on not limiting my idea of the depth and scope of the secrecy and double meanings George is using. We don't know how far this goes, George is kind of a maniac. As I said above, I am finding that more than half of the chapters in ADWD are coded metaphor for the Long Night events. Like, the whole chapter. I cannot wait to put out these chapter analysis, I've drafted a few and they are just so packed with tight, detailed corroboration... It's truly mind blowing, what George has done. I can't wait until the majority of hardcore fans begin to see the big picture of what he has wrought, which we are just now beginning to understand.

[Equilibrium]

Which massive post was this?

You know it's funny, occasionally people warn me of seeing patterns that aren't there (chasing shadows, if you will), which is totally valid for people like myself digging through everything for double meanings. But thing is, I have this thought all the time. I see a pattern and think, naw, that's probably nothing, and then you get several strong clues in a row. Then I go back over and re-read, I compare the passage to others, and if it holds up, I will talk about it in a comment or theory... and then everyone else gets to scrutinize it. If it still holds up after weeks of board scritiny, and is further corroborated by more text... Well that's how I get to the place I am at, anyway.

I'm not really concerned about shadow chasing at this point, since we are really just looking for the same set of patterns and symbols over and over again and continually finding them. Shadow chaser connections sort themselves out, falling apart under scrutiny. At this point I am more focused on not limiting my idea of the depth and scope of the secrecy and double meanings George is using. We don't know how far this goes, George is kind of a maniac. As I said above, I am finding that more than half of the chapters in ADWD are coded metaphor for the Long Night events. Like, the whole chapter. I cannot wait to put out these chapter analysis, I've drafted a few and they are just so packed with tight, detailed corroboration... It's truly mind blowing, what George has done. I can't wait until the majority of hardcore fans begin to see the big picture of what he has wrought, which we are just now beginning to understand.

No I wasn't thinking you see patterns that aren't there, I just thought for a moment that not every bit of text can be/is another important and clever clue.

[Mithras]

“The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. No more than I can.”

Do you think there is more this bolded part about Aemon’s blood which is why the anti-magic maesters could not trust him? Perhaps the dragon blood in the Targs acts as a marker for the Church of Starry Wisdom to track them and spy on them.