Astronomy of Planetos: Fingerprints of the Dawn

[The Mother of The Others]

It is. This stuff's been around. Humans are magically jealous. It's a theme. The new aspect your comet theory adds to it is now the jealous humans have a magical substance that's theirs for the taking and which could be used to lube themselves up to gain access to the secrets of the universe. A magical crowbar we only had access to after it crash landed on us. (The vibe I get from the warlocks is they're cheating to lay hold of powers not meant for mortals and the result is the necro-tizing effect on their skin as the magics draw them halfway into the grave, or more than halfway in the case of the Undying. Whereas the Fire magics grant the springboard "fun" version of resurrection, and the Nature magics provide extended life so you never need to resort to resurrection if you play your cards right.)

the planet is reacting to the interference with magic by humans, That's why I think the Others may well be an antibody reaction to the fire moon rocks that fell to the surface and the shadow magic that enabled.

good stuff

[Voice]

As to the cold forge, I do have some ideas, but to go into too much detail would spoil my next thread... I know you understand :) Whereas a normal forge uses heat, I believe the cold forge is magical, far from normal "hammering."

That's why I think the Others may well be an antibody reaction

Not to be a wet blanket, but I believe I coined the Others = antibodies theory :D

[The Mother of The Others]

you go, buddy! Hey, the Citadel then has a great reason to try to divorce mankind from magic use! They're trying to get the Others to stop targeting us. (If the Others are antibodies vs. blackstone magic use). If human society goes cold turkey and we clean up our act, the smudge of alien comet won't be on us for the Others to sniff anymore. Probably wouldn't work, since the Others seem to be remembering their grudges just fine even against very mundane humans.

[LmL]

As to the cold forge, I do have some ideas, but to go into too much detail would spoil my next thread... I know you understand :) Whereas a normal forge uses heat, I believe the cold forge is magical, far from normal "hammering."

Not to be a wet blanket, but I believe I coined the Others = antibodies theory :D

Yep, I got it from you. I like the idea quite a bit. It fits with my theory pretty well, because I am not finding any evidence that a moon rock landed in the Heart of Winter. I've looked for it, but don't see it. Whatever happened up there was a reaction, I think.

Was that wet blanket comment a pun? If so, well done ser. Frozen blanket, technically, but to be frozen it first had to be wet.

[LmL]

you go, buddy! Hey, the Citadel then has a great reason to try to divorce mankind from magic use! They're trying to get the Others to stop targeting us. (If the Others are antibodies vs. blackstone magic use). If human society goes cold turkey and we clean up our act, the smudge of alien comet won't be on us for the Others to sniff anymore. Probably wouldn't work, since the Others seem to be remembering their grudges just fine even against very mundane humans.

I sometimes agree with this idea - the maesters are the good guys. Magic is bad. Mithras strongly believes this. I never thought about the real reason the citadel is against magic being because they know it brings the Others down on us. But if this is so, it seems like the Others should have come soon after Aegon invaded. The exact cause of the Others invasion is a pretty wide open mystery, though, so nothing can be ruled out.

Complicating this is the fact that the Citadel, Hightower, and Faith of the Seven have Church of Starry Wisdom fingerprints all over them. The Citadel uses a black stone! to chose the sceneshal every year, just to name one thing. Marywn is worshipping at queer dockside fisherman's temples, that's the COSW they're talking about. I think the glass candle technology goes back to them. Quiathe is surely a COSW person. Anyway, if the citadel is on a mission to eliminate magic, there's a real cancer inside the body.

[The Mother of The Others]

The comet impregnated the moon with dragons, and then she died in childbirth.

That's a very NC17 way of saying the comet is ultimately responsible for the dragons due to its transformative substance. So we're sort of same page. And any cool Lovecraftian comet IS going to be indestructible enough to survive cosmic crashes and atmospheric entry and junk. Sorry, pizza just arrived. More later if the thread isn't locked by then.

[LmL]

Haha much love TMoTO, you always make me crack up.

You have read Scmendrick's R + L = Lightbringer, right? Everyone should read that. It covers all the procreative aspects of Lightbringer.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/103266-r-l-lightbringer-updated-with-part-ii/

[DraculaAD1972]

If fire was corrupted, can ice remain pure in a good way? The ice moon going solo in the wake of Nissa Nissa's crash landing, might be just as bad as corrupted fire. The antibody idea is fine, but turning all life into ice zombies seems a bit much. The Others seem as unnatural as corrupted fire.

The lightbringer event was a prometheus moment - fire magic fell to earth like a dangerous gift. Ice now has dominion of the sky, unchecked by fire. The Others could be the Ice Moon terraforming the planet into an ice-world.

[LmL]

If fire was corrupted, can ice remain pure in a good way? The ice moon going solo in the wake of Nissa Nissa's crash landing, might be just as bad as corrupted fire. The antibody idea is fine, but turning all life into ice zombies seems a bit much. The Others seem as unnatural as corrupted fire.

The lightbringer event was a prometheus moment - fire magic fell to earth like a dangerous gift. Ice now has dominion of the sky, unchecked by fire. The Others could be the Ice Moon terraforming the planet into an ice-world.

Hey a couple of very good ideas here :) Yes a variation of the antibody idea is that in the abscense of the fire moon in the sky, ice magic was unchecked. Or said another way, the sun's light could not reach the earth, and so the cold magic in the heart of winter was suddenly unchecked, and so it expanded. There are a few ways to look at it, but they all boil down the Others and the Long Night being a result of the destruction of the fire moon.

I believe there are diseases which originate from antibodies who outlive their purpose and begin killing other things. This is kind of the idea with VOTFM's antibody idea.

The terraforming idea is a cool way of thinking about it. They're creating their natural environment, just as we do when we can.

[Voice]

you go, buddy! Hey, the Citadel then has a great reason to try to divorce mankind from magic use! They're trying to get the Others to stop targeting us. (If the Others are antibodies vs. blackstone magic use). If human society goes cold turkey and we clean up our act, the smudge of alien comet won't be on us for the Others to sniff anymore. Probably wouldn't work, since the Others seem to be remembering their grudges just fine even against very mundane humans.

Nice angle!

In regards to the Others remembering their grudge... yes! I'm very much in agreement. I don't think there's anything people can do now. My feeling is the Others began as antibodies and a reckoning that needed to occur. Then, they were corrupted/militarized into being a plague in and of themselves, most likely by Night's King. Once cancerous, they turned out to be an even greater threat than the original acts that prompted the autoimmune response in the first place.

Yep, I got it from you. I like the idea quite a bit. It fits with my theory pretty well, because I am not finding any evidence that a moon rock landed in the Heart of Winter. I've looked for it, but don't see it. Whatever happened up there was a reaction, I think.

Was that wet blanket comment a pun? If so, well done ser. Frozen blanket, technically, but to be frozen it first had to be wet.

:cheers: and yes, pun intended. I was going for the winter cold season, wet blanket leads to pneumonia, immune system weakness, vibe lol

[Voice]

But if this is so, it seems like the Others should have come soon after Aegon invaded.

The fact that they didn't is precisely why I have a hard time believing the Others are a response to fire magic. I think they are a response to fire itself, the normal kind :)

I also tend to disagree with theories that see the Others and dragons canceling each other out in some way. We've zero accounts of dragons dying due to Other attacks, and, zero accounts of dragons slaying Others. The long night must have occurred due to something the First Men did or brought with them.

[Lost Melnibonean]

That's a very NC17 way of saying the comet is ultimately responsible for the dragons due to its transformative substance. So we're sort of same page. And any cool Lovecraftian comet IS going to be indestructible enough to survive cosmic crashes and atmospheric entry and junk. Sorry, pizza just arrived. More later if the thread isn't locked by then.

S@$t I wanted pizza but got beans and rice.

[Voice]

The Others could be the Ice Moon terraforming the planet into an ice-world.

While I don't associate it with an ice moon, there's no doubt the Others terraformed during the long night.

[DraculaAD1972]

The black rock comes from the moon, not the comet. The symbolism of both makes that clear. The moon is the mother of dragons. Also, the comet would have been completely, 100% vaporized in the explosion. The only rock which would have had a chance to explode away without melting would be the surface rock of the moon, specifically the side of the moon facing away from the comet. Since I think the text supports the fire moon at least was in an eclipse alignment, this makes sense as the backside ejecta would have hit the planet.

Think about the exploded moon rock as the corpse of the moon goddess, radiated by the energy of the comet's explosion. The comet impregnated the moon with dragons, and then she died in childbirth.

The moons themselves WERE magical, I am fairly sure. The elemental forces are the carriers of magic, and an ice and a fire moon would be the same. In fact, the scenario that makes the most sense to me is that the heart of winter is a kind of pole for ice magic, tied to the ice moon. This connection facilitates ice magic on Planetos. The Shadow used to be the heart of summer, the pole for fire magic. It was corrupted, obviously, as fire magic is now shadow fire magic and Asshai is very dark, the stone drinks the sun's light, etc.

Shadowbinders bind the shadows, or shades, of dead people to other things, usually resurrected bodies. Thus, I think the"Shadow" which hangs over the Sahdowlands is actually the shade of the dead moon goddess. Her strength, courage, soul, and blood went into Lightbringer, her offspring. Her offspring were the moon rocks which came streaking to the earth, which seem to be a magical version of bloodstone. It's greasy or oily because it's literally bloody stone, drenched in the blood of the dead fire moon goddess, which is now blck like demon or dragon blood. Her shade hangs of the area, a source of magic to draw from. This explains why red priests like Thoros can bring people back to life without paying the price of death. Only death can pay for life, but who died to resurrect Beric or Stoneheart? Nobody. Because it was the sacrifice of the moon goddess, her death, which pays for the resurrections of the R'hllorists. This is an exact analogy to the mechanics of Christian salvation, where the blood sacrifice of one sinless being pays for the sins of everyone. Nissa Nisa, Moon Goddess, is Jesus, kind of.

This is a great description, LmL. Very evocative. The Jesus connection is interesting. Jesus as a sun god with powers of healing/resurrection/prophecy connects him to Apollo and of course to R'hllor. R'hllor could be described as a 'dead' god, or the bones of Nissa Nissa. The corpse of the fallen fire moon. He is a shadow god worshipped as a sun god. That sun gods like Apollo arose from the ashes of a fallen moon goddess is a fact of pagan history. It may be worth considering that Bran is the name of a british god associated with ravens and historically defeated by a sun religion rival, and Dany's name is perhaps derived from Danu, the moon goddess, associated with Bran and similarly displaced.

[LmL]

While I don't associate it with an ice moon, there's no doubt the Others terraformed during the long night.

My upcoming moon goddess essay will make a believer out of you. ;)

[LmL]

This is a great description, LmL. Very evocative. The Jesus connection is interesting. Jesus as a sun god with powers of healing/resurrection/prophecy connects him to Apollo and of course to R'hllor. R'hllor could be described as a 'dead' god, or the bones of Nissa Nissa. The corpse of the fallen fire moon. He is a shadow god worshipped as a sun god. That sun gods like Apollo arose from the ashes of a fallen moon goddess is a fact of pagan history. It may be worth considering that Bran is the name of a british god associated with ravens and historically defeated by a sun religion rival, and Dany's name is perhaps derived from Danu, the moon goddess, associated with Bran and similarly displaced.

That was an extremely poignant way of saying that. Thank you. You've generated some new thoughts now. ;)

[Voice]

My upcoming moon goddess essay will make a believer out of you. ;)

As a lifelong fan of moon goddesses, I do hope so :)

[LmL]

As a lifelong fan of moon goddesses, I do hope so :)

Ah the pressure is on now... better stop yacking on the computer and get to writing!

[LmL]

This is a great description, LmL. Very evocative. The Jesus connection is interesting. Jesus as a sun god with powers of healing/resurrection/prophecy connects him to Apollo and of course to R'hllor. R'hllor could be described as a 'dead' god, or the bones of Nissa Nissa. The corpse of the fallen fire moon. He is a shadow god worshipped as a sun god. That sun gods like Apollo arose from the ashes of a fallen moon goddess is a fact of pagan history. It may be worth considering that Bran is the name of a british god associated with ravens and historically defeated by a sun religion rival, and Dany's name is perhaps derived from Danu, the moon goddess, associated with Bran and similarly displaced.

Not sure if you saw this comment from me some pages ago, but one of the fables about why heliotrope is called bloodstone is that a piece of green chalcedony was at the foot of the cross and caught drops of Jesus' blood, giving it the distinctive red spots of bloodstone. I think that Martin intends us to think of bloodstone as stone which has the blood of sacrifice imbued in to it, I am pretty sure, confirming my idea about Nissa Nissa moon being equivalent to jesus, or the class of sacrificial 'Osirian' deities that he belongs to, if you prefer. The greasy black stone is basically moonstone that oozes black blood.

The ice of her shadow being the one bound to Ashai is really gripping me right now. It makes too much sense. We are told over and over that only death can pay for life, yet the bloody red priests raise people all the time without any death.

I don't consider the cold wights alive, just animated corpses. Beric is actually alive, His blood flows, he can eat and drink if he wants. That's at least sort of alive. More alive than Drogo was.

[Voice]

Looking for magical comet impact sites? I'd look first to the magical poles for the two biggest concentrations. The sources of dragonizing and otherization, respectively. Then apparently there's lots of that black rock stuff here and there where the waves deposited it on the shore, etc.

Quick comment on this...

Poles are rarely impact sites. The angles and vectors of movement involved are exceedingly difficult. The source of dragonizing, as not being a planetary pole location is very possible. The source of otherization, not so much.

Disclaimer: rather than astronomical events, I lean toward the circumstances involved being purely magical. That being said, there are few more likely impact sites than the God's Eye. A circular lake is an immediate clue, as is the raised Isle of Faces at its center.