Astronomy of Planetos: Fingerprints of the Dawn

[Voice]

I want to give you a sticker or a cookie or something for that last bit.

JESUS CHRIST: SHADOWBINDER

now on broadway

:cheers:

Wouldn't Mother Mary be the shadowbinder?

[LmL]

It'd sure help provide the Hero with something to do if the magic poles were PLANETARY WOUNDS. (rifts that burst open in the aftermath of the moon impact). --> Then the hero could focus on cauterizing the planet's wounds through magic rituals that'd heal the rifts. If the poles are supposed to exist in their current form, then..... what is there for the Hero to approach and perform heroic changes upon? Us? You travel to the heart of winter only to discover we and not it are the ones who need to change. Well that'd be like herding cats to get this species to change, so the solution had better be something else with a magical "easy button" you can push.

this Comet-Destroys-Fire-Moon theory does leave the problem of "Why is the Ice Pole so pissed off at us if the Fire Moon was what got whacked?" Maybe Ice isn't pissed so much as it's no longer counterbalanced by the Fire Moon which always used to anchor everything in cosmic balance. So Ice is free to stretch its muscles and run wild now. So, unchecked, it begins terraforming the world in its image. That's a hell of a good reason to build the Wall as magical border! The actual Others aren't the big worry in that scenario, the Others are just the annoying surfers riding in on the Wave of Winter that's really what the Wall's magics are holding back. Both elements--corrupted or not-- would have always wanted this kind of terraforming if given the chance, but they never had the opportunity while the moons canceled each other out. So the Others are the cleaning crew. They're not only about death, it just seems like that right now because there's so much warm-blooded life to kill. After we've been swept aside, their personas would then blossom as they transitioned from murderers and took up more nurturing roles within the newly formed Ice World that didn't require them to be such meanies anymore.

I proposed something like this upthread, and the more I think about it, and hear you talk about it in such eloquent terms, the more I think this is the case. Balance and harmony IS George's version of cosmic "good," and discord and unbalance as "evil," as we've all discussed a few times. This balance of opposing forces is one of the central themes of ASOIAF, so I think it's the first principle to apply to any magical question. Removal, weakening, or corrupting the fire magic sources, whether it be the fire moon or the heart of summer, will result in the creation of a void, which will be filled expansion of ice magic. Magically speaking, this is the "cause" of the Long Night, but it fits hand in glove as a magical personification of the mechanics - the destruction of the fire moon and the meteors falling to earth. These things work together - and your phraseology of "riding on a wave of winter" is perfect - that's exactly how I described the Deep Ones a few pages back. Did you read that bit about the black ice and the dark tide? It's the same concept - the Deep Ones seem to have come along with a huge flood that occurred during the LN. The physical flood was triggered by one or more of the moon rocks landing in the ocean, while I believe the Deep Ones were somehow mutated or transformed by the magical moon rock under the ocean, which caused them to come on land (where it seems the mostly did raping and killing, but leaving half-human offspring in many areas). Check this out and see what you think

Now, you may have just hit a home run with the bit highlighted in red. Let's just stand back and give you a slow clap, because I think you are on to something. Of course, we probably shouldn't try to separate the Others and the cold. It's actually George trolling us with the chicken or the egg thing - do the Others come when it's cold, or does the cold come with the Others? Clearly on a very local level, the Others are surrounding by that horrible chill wherever they go. But they don't just go anywhere, they stay in the north, indicating that they are confined by environmental constraints. But the point is, it's the heart of winter itself that is held in check by the wall. I am sure this is right (okay not sure but I am FEELING it to use your terminology :devil:). Which leads me back to an early hypothesis that I had and haven't talked about yet - the Wall is made of fused black stone at its core. I just bet it is. It's the logical thing to hold it back.

And at the Fire Pole at Asshai, maybe it's not so much that Fire has been corrupted by Shadow. Maybe the Fire is simply guttering and slowly dying without its patron moon to sustain it. (Scientifically, this could mean the planet's core is growing still now that the lunar gravitic pull is no longer keeping the magma churning in the planet's mixmaster core. The Valyrian cataclysm would then have been the planet's heart attack that signaled it could no longer sustain fire magic at those levels.) As the Fire Pole loses potency it's gradually being infiltrated and engulfed by Shadow simply through osmosis. There wouldn't have to be an evil intent behind this. It'd be physics driving the takeover of the Fire Pole by Shadow. Shadow is just rushing in to fill the void left by the diminishing Flame. Those sorcerers who cling to the dying Flame Magic would be going for the ride Melisandre is on, being forcibly shadow-blended as they try to hold their heads up high like the little orphan Annie and sing the sun will come out tomorrow. Strangely, this downward shadow spiral doesn't seem to be effecting Moqorro. So there may still be local wells of fire magic that aren't contaminated with shadow yet? Benerro's private stock? Like oil, a dwindling natural resource? On the brink of collapse judging from what befell Valryia. But is it? Is fire dwindling? Because.... look at how both elements are manifesting freaks just fine still. "Demons" are real entities as well on the Fire side, I suspect. In some ways it looks like your moon blow-up hasn't slowed Fire down at all.

I will consider the guttering candle idea, I think it could have merit. I tend to think about it as more of an instant corruption, but we don't know that at all. I'm mostly happy to have figured out that it must have once been the heart of summer. It's called 2 things now: the heart of darkness, and the Shadow or the Shadowlands. So it must have previously been associated with light.

But no, I don't think it has slowed down either. It's seems plenty potent - it's just fire that is more shadow than light. So check this out - I've got a big Dark Lightbringer essay coming, and I have studied every occurrence of Drogon's dragon fire, which is always described as black flame shot through with red or bits of red, EXCEPT for the scene in the house of the undying. In that room, Drogon's fire "flew from his jaws, bright and hot." And I believe this is for a reason, it's not a mistake. That room was full of darkness and shadow, the only light a dim blue emanating from the heart of the table. Even black fire shot through with red is brighter than a blue shadow heart, so it appears bright in contrast. But every other time, in the daylight or even outside at night, the fire is black, never bright. The point is that even the dark fire carries a bit of light. I think the fire magic at the corrupted heart of fire is just like this black and red flame - its dark fire, but it still burns, and in the pitch black, it has a little bit of light - dark light or something. George has been toying with this concept since the 70's in various short stories, we have discovered (hat tip, Crowfoods Daughter).

So, it seems to me that the shadowlands are more corrupted than weakened. I'd really like to see the endgame somehow release the "shadow" from the shadowlands. Let the moon goddess' shade rest in peace. I really want this to happen.

I guess for your stuff it'd have to be a fire-aligned moon. And blowing up certainly qualifies as firy. [pauses to picture the fire moon as a pyromaniac always having to calm itself down from wanting to spontaneously combust. Then this sleazy hot comet comes along and tickles the moon in just the right way and it was too much to resist and the moon gave in to its irresponsible fantasy of blowing up].

Please don't ever stop commenting on my threads. :bowdown:

For me, though, I picture moons coalescing from the same non-magical materials as the planet at the time they both formed, or a late-arriving asteroid impact threw a portion of the planet's mass out into space until it reformed as a moon, but again a moon of the same makeup as the planet.

The model for the ice and fire moons comes from Europa and Io, which are both moons of Jupiter. Io is the fire moon, Europa the ice moon. The mythology of Io and Europa are absolutely, positively in use by Martin in regards to the corresponding moons, one of the main things that confirms I am on the right track here. The point is, they orbit the same planet and are not formed by the material of the planet. There are several ways moons can form, not always from the material of the mother planet. In this case I do not really know where the moons "came from" but one is definitely and ice moon and one a fire moon.

So my instinct is to look to the comet for whatever Alien blackstone matter got added to the mix more recently---the substance that's causing the planet's sickness and causing the poles to churn out monsters as evidence of the elements' chaotic turn. Lovecraftian asteroid goo would attach itself to our sort of Life and then try to terraform the world in its own image.

The magical martinverse version of bloodstone was created by the reaction of the comet and moon, just as bloodstone was "created" when Christ's blood dropped on the stone. It's a stone created by blood sacrifice. We have bleeding trees on one hand, and bleeding stone on the other. Nissa's blood went into "Lightbringer" - and while I do think this may mean the half of the comet which missed was transformed as it passed by, it seems clear her blood is in that rock. When Azor Ahai / the Bloodstone Emperor made a sword imbued with this black bloodstone rock somehow, Nissa's strength and soul and blood and courage all did go into the blade. The Bloodstone Emperor, who defiles everything he touches, used this powerful magic sword to bring darkness, woe, etc, BUT, it ultimately did apparently play a valuable role in the hands of the Last Hero fighting against the Others.

If the moons were imbued magically with Ice and Fire animus, I'd expect that was poured into them or imposed upon them by some sorcerous hand to help regulate the universe. That way the moons were normal stone that had been made to serve as magic conductors moreso than having magic emanate from an unnatural kind of stone within. That's just me.

Not a bad idea but I haven't seen any textual symbolism to indicate this. People may think I am just brainstorming a lot of this (not you necessarily), but I am really just following the metaphors George has left. Lots of things are possible, but everything I put forward is rooted in interpretation of the text. Point being, I'll keep this in mind and let you know if I see nay clues popup suggesting this. From all appearances, the moons existed before mankind, the one blew up 10,000 years ago, and the other one (the ice moon) is going to have its ice and water stripped away, leaving only the rocky core that is at the center of most ice moons. Then an ice dragon will come and kick ass. But I digress..

I don't think the magic emanates from unnatural stone. I think the stone became unnatural only during the explosion.

Re: the moon goddess' corpse: I like that notion of the cosmos being outraged by the moon's death and there being lasting repercussions for the breaking of the equilibrium. But I don't like kryptonite type transformations of good rocks into bad rocks. That never really worked for me in Superman. It was always kind of a head scratcher. Similarly, it's not a satisfying explanation for the birth of dragons to say they're brought about from the same moon rocks that used to be so life-affirming, because.... those moon stones wouldn't have motive to suddenly do us harm when that's the opposite of the purpose they'd always served. The goddess wouldn't choose to punish us for a cosmic event that wasn't our fault. So the choice must be taken out of her hands by saying dragons are a chaos thing and not a mother vengeance thing. Calling dragons her children makes it sound like her intended result, though. As if it was in her will that if she ever got busted up by a comet she wanted the people of planetos to go through hell! I wouldn't describe the dragons as the moon's children just to match the Essos myth. Dany's handmaids got the gist of what happened but not the specific cause and effect. I'd describe dragons as something closer to Sigourney Weaver style aliens that burst out into the world after the moon lost containment of its magic. What I'm saying is the earth goddess wouldn't have cursed the earth with dragons when she was healthy and the heavens were in balance. The balance was about fostering our sort of life. That may be a conceited assumption, but it sounds right: the Children of the Forest were an example of how our kind of life can exist as healthy mother goddess magic users. They were paragons for proper living, the early birds who got the worm. Then us later races had to jealously cheat to get magic access we didn't deserve, so we're abusers of the balance and our sorcery benefits from the death of the goddess as we feast on her corpse to gain power (bonding with dragons, etc.) So if the original spirit of the Moon Goddess wouldn't produce dragons, the impetus for dragons comes either from the comet's Otherish substance causing mutations in deep earth drakes under the impact site, or from human sorcerers abusing the natural order, or the dragons represent the cosmos' outrage over the loss of equilibrium and the spill over of the moon's kinetic energy into uncontrolled manifestations as fiesty as that explosion.

That said, I don't know what the frick you're supposed to do with any of that. It's mostly fun to chat this out. Going by feels.

[Mithras]

I have to agree with Voice, I do not think either Beric or Stoneheart's "soul" is in their body. Very subjective territory, to be sure, but I tend to think of ghosts or shades as being the part of the person which is still attached to something in life, something it cannot let go of. Stoneheart fits this; the part of her that is left is the bitter, vengeful, and emotionally ravaged remnant of her life. Her shade seeks only to wrestle with the things happening to her when she died. Beric too - his mission was to catch the Mountain and defend the King's peace. When we finally meet him, he's just continuing on this old mission, long past the point of relevance - Gregor is long gone. These behaviors seem like ghost behaviors, at least as they are commonly understood today. Ghosts are usually put to rest when whatever they are stuck on at the moment of death gets resolved.

Coldhands - oh boy. He's a whole nother can of worms. My question for anyone with an opinion about Coldhands is this: why aren't the animals afraid of him? He's clearly dead, and smells dead, and wrong, like all other wights, which usually terrifies animals. Yet the elk not only tolerates him, but serves him. After they split up, the elk does exactly what he wants and takes the children to a specific spot. The ravens talk to him, perch on him, follow him - he's basically acting like a greenseer. Who is dead.

Thoughts?

Agreed and similarly, Ned's shade is out there in the crypts too. He is still attached to the world by the promise he failed to keep.

I wonder why Joanna's shade is still out there as well. During Jaime's dream, it is clear that Joanna's ghost literally came to him.

[LmL]

Quotes are acting wonky, but responding to that last bit, I am 100% sure that dragons existed before the LN catastrophe. The dragons do not come from moon rock. I do think the Bloodstone Emperor used the moon rock to alter dragons, perhaps, either creating the method of dragonbonding used by the Valyrians involving the "blood of the dragon" experiment / infusion / crossbreeding whatever, or by creating the black dragons with black fire. The Five Forts and Hightower fortress prove that dragons existed, and were controlled by sorcerers, before the LN. So even though I thought maybe the black stone enabled the crossbreeding of wyverns and firewyrms, no, that cannot be. They existed first. I don't buy the wyvern / wyrm thing at all, myself. I think dragons are a product of the planet and have always existed. But regardless, the literal dragons did not come from the meteors.

The comet is seen as a dragon, so when it impregnated the moon, the moon would then have baby dragons. And it did - it had baby comets (meteors). Ironically, most of the living dragons probably died during the Long Night, along with everything else.

As for the transformation of the rock, try to think about the fire moon (check out the link above to Io moon wiki). It's magma in the middle, surrounded by molten rock and a highly volcanic rocky crust. When the moon exploded, that magma went out into space. If any of it reached the atmosphere of the planet, it would harden into obsidian. During the Doom, dragon glass rained down from the sky (along with black blood - like the greasy black BLOODstone), an interesting connection. But the fire moon is exploded, its magma gone. The large pieces of black bloodstone rock are the pieces of the crust, the only solid rock on the moon. The "heart of fire" is the key here, as the R'hllorists call him. When the Nissa moon loses its fiery heart, it dies. Those greasy black rocks are DEAD moon goddess. They are transformed, "radiated" by the explosion, and soaked in her blood. These Nissa corpse meteors "drank the fire of the sun" as they fell, and the greasy stone at Asshai "drinks the light" from everything. This sounds like radiation to me, and the result is a stone which drink sunlight. As I have pointed out many times, Ned's sword (or the ones made from them) drink the light when Tobho tried to color them, just as you'd expect from a sword made from the black moon rock.

Thus, the offspring of comet and moon are the moon rocks which "drank the sun's fire" - these rocks are from the flesh of the mother, seeded by the father and imbued with the father's fire. Remember, frozen fire (dragon glass) is black too, but it kills Others and does seem to be exactly what it is billed as, so it's not odd for something imbued with fire to be dark in color.

Finally, the moon goddess rocks DID serve a noble purpose. First, if Nissa hadn't been in the way, it may well have been earth which was hit directly by the comet. In that way her death is a sacrifice. But once on earth, and imbued in the dark light bringer sword, they also eventually found their way ti a good purpose - fighting the Others.

Getting back to the idea of the wall being fused stone, that implies someone with dragons helped to build it. I already thought that dragons made it that far north in the Dawn Age, so this isn't weird to me.

[LmL]

Agreed and similarly, Ned's shade is out there in the crypts too. He is still attached to the world by the promise he failed to keep.

I wonder why Joanna's shade is still out there as well. During Jaime's dream, it is clear that Joanna's ghost literally came to him.

True enough. George makes a really big deal about Ned's bones to draw our attention to this idea.

[LmL]

Wouldn't Mother Mary be the shadowbinder?

He shadowbound lazarus.

[Mithras]

Quotes are acting wonky, but responding to that last bit, I am 100% sure that dragons existed before the LN catastrophe. The dragons do not come from moon rock. I do think the Bloodstone Emperor used the moon rock to alter dragons, perhaps, either creating the method of dragonbonding used by the Valyrians involving the "blood of the dragon" experiment / infusion / crossbreeding whatever, or by creating the black dragons with black fire.

There are different species of wyverns.

Brindled wyverns, with their distinctive jade-and-white scales, grow up to thirty feet long . Swamp wyverns have been known to attain even greater size, though they are sluggish by nature and seldom fly far from their lairs. Brownbellies, no larger than monkeys, are even more dangerous than their larger kin, for they hunt in packs of a hundred or more. But most dreaded of all is the shadow -wing, a nocturnal monster whose black scales and wings make him all but invisible … until he descends out of the darkness to tear apart his prey.

This last species looks like Balerion-Drogon.

[LmL]

It does indeed. What do you make of that? If you like the idea that the BSE created the black dragons then perhaps that's where the wyvern crossing comes in. I can't help but notice all the shadow references.

I don't think Septon Barth is always 100% right, but he's seldom totally wrong. So there must be something to the wyvern connection. But I don't buy firewyrms + wyverns= dragons. I can't see how anyone could control a firewyrn. It's a damn worm that lives underground. This isn't Dune.

[LordImp]

I think you can be able to control firewyrms with the right magic , a big blood sacrifice and probably using horns. I think the Faceless men used wyrms to bring the doom.

[Mithras]

It does indeed. What do you make of that? If you like the idea that the BSE created the black dragons then perhaps that's where the wyvern crossing comes in. I can't help but notice all the shadow references.

I don't think Septon Barth is always 100% right, but he's seldom totally wrong. So there must be something to the wyvern connection. But I don't buy firewyrms + wyverns= dragons. I can't see how anyone could control a firewyrn. It's a damn worm that lives underground. This isn't Dune.

Firewyrms and bats live in the darkness of the caves. This type of wyverns hunts at nights. But we know that dragons hunt at daytime and return to their lairs when night falls. Besides, the wyverns have strong beaks whereas dragons have teeth and jaws.

BTW.

Khal Mengo took these gifts gladly … then took the conquered lands as well, burning fields and farms and towns to return the grasslands to their wild state (for the Dothraki consider the earth to be their mother and think it sinful to cut her flesh with plows and spades and axes).

Does not this bolded part look like a belief due to the CotF? Recall that Garth Greenhand tried to teach farming to the CotF but they rejected it.

If so, the Dothraki seem highly perversed from their original beliefs. As we discussed before, the benign Jogos Nhai seem like the true version of the Dothraki.

[Lost Melnibonean]

There are different species of wyverns.

Brindled wyverns, with their distinctive jade-and-white scales, grow up to thirty feet long . Swamp wyverns have been known to attain even greater size, though they are sluggish by nature and seldom fly far from their lairs. Brownbellies, no larger than monkeys, are even more dangerous than their larger kin, for they hunt in packs of a hundred or more. But most dreaded of all is the shadow -wing, a nocturnal monster whose black scales and wings make him all but invisible until he descends out of the darkness to tear apart his prey.

This last species looks like Balerion-Drogon.

That last species looks like Toothless.

[LordImp]

Dont now if this has been brought up but OP suggests that Neds sword ice was Azor Ahais dark lightbringer . Ice is now Two swords: Oathkeeper and Widows Wail. Do you think one of these will be the " bad" sword ? If so who is the bad guy , Jaime? Brienne?

[Voice]

That last species looks like Toothless.

Lol, I was thinking the same...

Just want to point out that Caraxes was known as the Blood Wyrm, and was killed in battle with Vhagar above the Gods Eye. So there's a bit of a blood and firewyrm reference there, fire and blood, firewyrms burrow through stone... might this result in bloodstone? or perhaps dragonglass? both?

Also, searching for wyrms, found this little tidbit in the WB:

In Septon Barth's Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns, he speculated that the bloodmages of Valyria used wyvern stock to create dragons. Though the bloodmages were alleged to have experimented mightily with their unnatural arts, this claim is considered far-fetched by most maesters, among them Maester Vanyon's Against the Unnatural contains certain proofs of dragons having existed in Westeros even in the earliest of days, before Valyria rose to be a power.

[Han Snow]

Westeros even in the earliest of days, before Valyria rose to be a power.

Because GEoDawnians were the ones who first crossbreeded the species way way back.

[LmL]

It seems clear that dragons existed before the Long Noght, before Azor Ahai, before the moon destruction. If they were the result of crossbreeding, yes, it can only have been the GeoDawnians. But I just don't think this is the case. If firewyrms exist on their own and breath fire, then there is no need for dragons to be the creation of man. I tend to suspect the Bloodstone E did something magical with dragons - my ideas are that he created the black dragons, or created the bonding magic the Valyrians use. Perhaps he used the black shadow wyvern to make the black dragons, maybe. I also think the description of the black wyvern may simply be a reader clue about the nature of the black dragons - they are shadow fire dragons who breathe black flame. Dragons always seem to have heavy shadow imagery about them, especially Drogon.

[LmL]

Dont now if this has been brought up but OP suggests that Neds sword ice was Azor Ahais dark lightbringer . Ice is now Two swords: Oathkeeper and Widows Wail. Do you think one of these will be the " bad" sword ? If so who is the bad guy , Jaime? Brienne?

It's really hard to say, because it seems like dark light bringer was a scourge to the living when in the hands of Azor Ahai as the Bloodstone Emperor, but later served a critical role to fight the Others. So it was only the "bad" sword to begin with. It may have even been broken and reforged, which would be when the cotf helped the LH and showed him how to infuse dragon glass into the sword, as per Radio Westeros' idea.

As for predicting how thinghs will go this time, I shy away from that. The tricky part is that events replay themselves, but sometimes they are inverted, and sometimes they HAVE to be inverted to bring resolution to the original problem. So I am not sure what exactly is going to happen in that cave with Jaime, Brienne, Stoneheart, and one half of dark Lightbringer, but its going to be pretty fucking dramatic, i am thinking, and that sword will be taking fire, I suspect. Jaime has a bunch of Azor Ahai / LH symbolism about him, as does Brienne, the Evenstar, so I only know that those people being there with that sword is no accident, and something combustible is about to burn. I look forward to this scene in book 6 because I believe it will prove large parts of my theory when that sword takes fire and the flame is black and red. I'm going to leap out of my chair... hopefully I won't be driving at the moment (I do the audiobook thing)

[LmL]

His father glanced up. “I did. Come have a look at this.” A bundle of oilcloth lay on the table between them, and Lord Tywin had a longsword in his hand. “A wedding gift for Joffrey,” he told Tyrion. The light streaming through the diamond- shaped panes of glass made the blade shimmer black and red as Lord Tywin turned it to inspect the edge, while the pommel and crossguard flamed gold.

[...]

“The colors are strange,” he commented as he turned the blade in the sunlight. Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black, as was true here as well. But blended into the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lapped over one another without ever touching, each ripple distinct, like waves of night and blood upon some steely shore. “How did you get this patterning? I’ve never seen anything like it.”

"I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it. And some folds would not take the red at all, as you can see."

[...]

“A crimson sword might flash prettily in the sun, but if truth be told I like these colors better,” said Tyrion. “They have an ominous beauty … and they make this blade unique. There is no other sword like it in all the world, I should think.”

Jaime's Law: what color does the fire of a magic sword take when it takes fire?

As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand’s breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery- blue light, and the gloom pulled back.

That explains why Dawn's light is pale bluish white. What about Dark Lightbringer?

But she had another longsword hidden in her bedroll. She sat on the bed and took it out. Gold glimmered yellow in the candlelight and rubies smoldered red. When she slid Oathkeeper from the ornate scabbard, Brienne’s breath caught in her throat. Black and red the ripples ran, deep within the steel. Valyrian steel, spell- forged . It was a sword fit for a hero. When she was small, her nurse had filled her ears with tales of valor, regaling her with the noble exploits of Ser Galladon of Morne, Florian the Fool, Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, and other champions. Each man bore a famous sword, and surely Oathkeeper belonged in their company, even if she herself did not. (Yes you do, Brienne!) “You’ll be defending Ned Stark’s daughter with Ned Stark’s own steel,” Jaime had promised. Kneeling between the bed and wall, she held the blade and said a silent prayer to the Crone, whose golden lamp showed men the way through life. Lead me , she prayed, light the way before me, show me the path that leads to Sansa . She had failed Renly, had failed Lady Catelyn. She must not fail Jaime. He trusted me with his sword. He trusted me with his honor .

So what color will the flame be when Oathkeeper takes fire, I ask you? :cool4: :cool4: :cool4:

[LmL]

We've seen this pattern a bunch of places, a red and black fire thing next to an icy white or blue thing. Here's one example:

The world was grey darkness, smelling of pine and moss and cold. Pale mists rose from the black earth as the riders threaded their way through the scatter of stones and scraggly trees, down toward the welcoming fires strewn like jewels across the floor of the river valley below. There were more fires than Jon Snow could count, hundreds of fires, thousands, a second river of flickery lights along the banks of the icy white Milkwater. The fingers of his sword hand opened and closed.

ASOS, Jon

[LordImp]

It's really hard to say, because it seems like dark light bringer was a scourge to the living when in the hands of Azor Ahai as the Bloodstone Emperor, but later served a critical role to fight the Others. So it was only the "bad" sword to begin with. It may have even been broken and reforged, which would be when the cotf helped the LH and showed him how to infuse dragon glass into the sword, as per Radio Westeros' idea.

As for predicting how thinghs will go this time, I shy away from that. The tricky part is that events replay themselves, but sometimes they are inverted, and sometimes they HAVE to be inverted to bring resolution to the original problem. So I am not sure what exactly is going to happen in that cave with Jaime, Brienne, Stoneheart, and one half of dark Lightbringer, but its going to be pretty fucking dramatic, i am thinking, and that sword will be taking fire, I suspect. Jaime has a bunch of Azor Ahai / LH symbolism about him, as does Brienne, the Evenstar, so I only know that those people being there with that sword is no accident, and something combustible is about to burn. I look forward to this scene in book 6 because I believe it will prove large parts of my theory when that sword takes fire and the flame is black and red. I'm going to leap out of my chair... hopefully I won't be driving at the moment (I do the audiobook thing)

Jaime is indeed a strong candidate for Azor Ahai , not as strong candidate as Jon or Dany but. Im sure Jaime will play a important role in the endgame.

[LmL]

Congrats on pushing this thread over 600 comments and 31 pages... is that a record? It's taken 24 days to get there. You people are all beautiful, your comments have been lovely - there's probably just as much if not more good information in the comments of this thread as the OP. Everything I ever hoped for.. Good discussion. Getting after it. Gods and goddesses, shadow babies and fire swords. Well done people, give yourselves a round of applause.

I posted this on the end of the last page, but it was the last one on the page, so I am re-posting here. This is a sneak preview of the next essay I am going to release, I am pretty sure (several in development at once). It's going to be about the two magic swords, Dawn and Lightbringer.

His father glanced up. “I did. Come have a look at this.” A bundle of oilcloth lay on the table between them, and Lord Tywin had a longsword in his hand. “A wedding gift for Joffrey,” he told Tyrion. The light streaming through the diamond- shaped panes of glass made the blade shimmer black and red as Lord Tywin turned it to inspect the edge, while the pommel and crossguard flamed gold.
[...]
“The colors are strange,” he commented as he turned the blade in the sunlight. Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black, as was true here as well. But blended into the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lapped over one another without ever touching, each ripple distinct, like waves of night and blood upon some steely shore. “How did you get this patterning? I’ve never seen anything like it.”

"I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it. And some folds would not take the red at all, as you can see."
[...]
“A crimson sword might flash prettily in the sun, but if truth be told I like these colors better,” said Tyrion. “They have an ominous beauty … and they make this blade unique. There is no other sword like it in all the world, I should think.”

Jaime's Law: what color does the fire of a magic sword take when it takes fire?

As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand’s breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery- blue light, and the gloom pulled back.

That explains why Dawn's light is pale bluish white. What about Dark Lightbringer?

But she had another longsword hidden in her bedroll. She sat on the bed and took it out. Gold glimmered yellow in the candlelight and rubies smoldered red. When she slid Oathkeeper from the ornate scabbard, Brienne’s breath caught in her throat. Black and red the ripples ran, deep within the steel. Valyrian steel, spell- forged . It was a sword fit for a hero. When she was small, her nurse had filled her ears with tales of valor, regaling her with the noble exploits of Ser Galladon of Morne, Florian the Fool, Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, and other champions. Each man bore a famous sword, and surely Oathkeeper belonged in their company, even if she herself did not. (Yes you do, Brienne!) “You’ll be defending Ned Stark’s daughter with Ned Stark’s own steel,” Jaime had promised. Kneeling between the bed and wall, she held the blade and said a silent prayer to the Crone, whose golden lamp showed men the way through life. Lead me , she prayed, light the way before me, show me the path that leads to Sansa . She had failed Renly, had failed Lady Catelyn. She must not fail Jaime. He trusted me with his sword. He trusted me with his honor .

So what color will the flame be when Oathkeeper takes fire, I ask you? :cool4: :cool4: :cool4: