Southern realms sending men to the Nightswatch, a big incoherence in world building ?

[Lord Freypie]

8000 years.... It's a long time. In the beginning of the story hardly anyone still believe in the threat of the Others.

For most people, Nightswatch is some useless thing of the past, protecting the realm against "grumpkin and snarks", or at most some garrison protecting the North against wildlings.

Thinking about the wildling threat they hardly threaten anyone but the Starks and their vassals. To reach the Riverlands they would have not only to defeat the full force of Winterfell but also to cross the Neck, southern realms would have years to prepare even in the event of a fall of the wall. And the threat is even smaller for kingdoms like the Iron Islands as the wildling have no fleet, or Dorne completely on the other side of the continent.

Still it seems, for thousands of years, the southern realms (not even part of the same Kingdom before targaryan conquest) continued to send people to the watch, for no reason at all, and while the Nightswatch is in decline it's only very recent (Aemon mentions to Sam that by the time of Aegon's conquest the parent of Harren who was lord commander Nightswatch had 10 thousand men under his orders, 10 times more than actually -which is even stranger when you think that the main power of the time, Harren the Black was certainly not sending prisoners to the Watch but using them as slaves to build Harrenhall).

Even more suprising is the mention of Nymeria (someone not even from Westeros) sending vanquished Dornish kings to the watch (was a thousand years ago but still seven thousands after the long night). What could have been the importance of the Watch for Dorne at this time, when there were like 12 kingdoms to cross between the wall and its fronteer ?

Ok the watch can be seen as some kind of gulag every realm found convenient to send prisoners to. But considering the cost to make people cross a whole continent, it's hardly convincing.

Even stranger it seems at the time of the book, when the Watch is in a very logical decline, northerners, who are the main people concerned considering the wildlings are the only acknowledged threat the watch keeps at bay, are only a very small part of the Watch.

When Jon joins it it seems out of Mormont and Benjen, most people there seem to worship the Seven, and so are likely from the south, to the point the septon can repeteadly label the old gods as barbaric without any reaction from their followers, and Jon ends alone with Sam to pronounce his vows in front of the heart tree.

Wouldn't it have been far more logical to have the lords of the north as the main suppliers of men, and so at least half the people there being Old Gods followers ?

Ok everything don't have to be logical in fantasy, but IMO Martin could have done better here.

Only explanation I can find is the belief in the Others only vanished very recently, but I hardly find a reason why people took their threat seriously for 7800 years only to suddenly stop believing in their existence post Targaryan conquest.

It's also rather illogical to think the Watch was well supplied in the era where Westeros was divided between rival kingdoms (and wildlings could be seen as objective allies of any kingdom at war with the Starks), but stopped to be some time after the Seven Kingdom were united and the Wall finally became the whole realm fronteer.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

I always thought that at the very start the Northerners guarded the Wall, but the North is huge and not the most populous so they didn't have enough men to guard the Wall.

Some Southern kingdoms/Houses believed the Northerners that during the Long Night there were Others and wights who could destroy Westeros, so they sent men to take the black in the past and it became a tradition of them, so they regularly sent men to guard the Wall.

And the other Southerns, who thought that there wasn't any Other or wight, realized the potential in taking the black: if a tough father had a weak firstborn son he simply sent him to the Night's Watch and problem was solved (see Randyll Tarly).

Also the Southern regions like the Reach is too populous, I bet that they didn't have enough food a lot of times during history, so they solved it by sending men to the Watch.

Or a lesser Lord had more sons, he couldn't offered to buy proper knight's armor and horse for all of them, so sent the younger one to take the black, and bigger Lords sent their nth son too, coz they wanted to carve their names into the Night's Watch's history.

Or for example after a conquest the victor wanted to show that he knows mercy, so didn't kill the previous rulers, but sent them to the Wall, something like what Nymeria did.

So more and more Southern guys joined the Watch and they slowly outnumbered the Northerners.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

They mostly sent prisoners to the Nights Watch. Some nobles in the South may have volunteered as they were guaranteed a position of power in the Watch, something they might not have gotten hanging around in the South but it was mostly people who had no choice in the matter.

Think of every small war in a region, the losers would be sent to the Wall. In a continent the size of Westeros in the time of multiple kingdoms there would be a multitude of minor conflicts each year. Those political prisoners would add up.

[Lasicka]

Well for the South it´s basically Australia - a self sustainable prison colony.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The Watch started out as a semi-religious order and retained that image until the Targs started meddling. Religious orders rarely lack for volunteers and in a feudal society are a damn important tool of the rulers, to prevent unwanted guys from having heirs and making trouble in the future without lopping off their heads.

Even stranger it seems at the time of the book, when the Watch is in a very logical decline, northerners, who are the main people concerned considering the wildlings are the only acknowledged threat the watch keeps at bay, are only a very small part of the Watch.

When Jon joins it it seems out of Mormont and Benjen, most people there seem to worship the Seven, and so are likely from the south, to the point the septon can repeteadly label the old gods as barbaric without any reaction from their followers, and Jon ends alone with Sam to pronounce his vows in front of the heart tree.

Wouldn't it have been far more logical to have the lords of the north as the main suppliers of men, and so at least half the people there being Old Gods followers ?

That seems to be due to first Jaeharys intentionally creating strife between the Watch and the Northmen, and much later, when stuff started to get back to normal, Sleepy Jack Musgood fucking up.

Ned and Benjen had a scheme to start fixing things starting next sprin.

[Kaibaman]

While many of its members were criminals and former POWs. A number of people joined the Watch because of the opportunities it offered. Unlike pretty much all of Westeros the Nights Watch is a meritocracy which in theory anybody no matter how lowborn they are can earn positions of honor in its ranks. Also to the very, very poor the thought of being fed and provided for would be quite attractive. Yoren after all did manage to recruit some vagrants in King's Landing with the promise of food.

[Kaibaman]

While many of its members were criminals and former POWs. A number of people joined the Watch on their own accord because of the opportunities it offered. Unlike pretty much all of Westeros the Nights Watch is a meritocracy which in theory anybody no matter how lowborn they are can earn positions of honor in its ranks. Also to the very, very poor the thought of being fed and provided for would be quite attractive. Yoren after all did manage to recruit some vagrants in King's Landing with the promise of food.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I would find the Watch more believable if it was indeed a type of religious warrior order, supported by the Faith. Like the Knights Templar or some such order. Then a cross national belief in its existence could be understood.

But the Faith is not central to the Watch. In fact, it was founded by believers in the Old Gods. And by the time the Faith of the 6 southron kingdoms arrived, the original purpose of the Watch was already lost in time.

I really struggle to understand a commitment of men and resources from all the kingdoms that resulted in a 10000 strong Watch 300 years ago, when the Targaryens first arrived. It really makes no sense.

[EastTymor]

I would find the Watch more believable if it was indeed a type of religious warrior order, supported by the Faith. Like the Knights Templar or some such order. Then a cross national belief in its existence could be understood.

But the Faith is not central to the Watch. In fact, it was founded by believers in the Old Gods. And by the time the Faith of the 6 southron kingdoms arrived, the original purpose of the Watch was already lost in time.

I really struggle to understand a commitment of men and resources from all the kingdoms that resulted in a 10000 strong Watch 300 years ago, when the Targaryens first arrived. It really makes no sense.

The only men and resources that are sent are those that are of negative value. Having third sons, defeated enemies, and criminals running around your kingdom does no good and causes all sorts of problems. If the Night's Watch will take them off your hands, why not?

[Lord Freypie]

The only men and resources that are sent are those that are of negative value. Having third sons, defeated enemies, and criminals running around your kingdom does no good and causes all sorts of problems. If the Night's Watch will take them off your hands, why not?

On the other hand, why not using this labor force for something actually beneffiting your own realm ?

While wildlings threat was only for the North, all the west of Westeros suffered very similar threat with the Iron Islander raids. Why haven't they formed the Coastwatch to defend themselves instead of sending those men to help defend the realms of men the Stark demesnes ?

IMO the support given to the Nightswatch is only logical if there was a profund belief in its purpose (the threat of the others for all the realms), but the problem then is how could that belief that survived 7000+ years suddenly disappear in the very last centuries only (perhaps maester anti-magic culture influence ?).

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I would find the Watch more believable if it was indeed a type of religious warrior order, supported by the Faith. Like the Knights Templar or some such order. Then a cross national belief in its existence could be understood.

But the Faith is not central to the Watch. In fact, it was founded by believers in the Old Gods. And by the time the Faith of the 6 southron kingdoms arrived, the original purpose of the Watch was already lost in time.

I really struggle to understand a commitment of men and resources from all the kingdoms that resulted in a 10000 strong Watch 300 years ago, when the Targaryens first arrived. It really makes no sense.

The Old Gods are still strong. Most people in Westeros are polytheistic and follow both the Old Gods and the New (and a couple oddities). Yes, the New Gods are the more important ones in the South, but sometime after the Andal Invasion, the two faiths have eked out a way to coexist and cooperate on issues such as this.

On the other hand, why not using this labor force for something actually beneffiting your own realm ?

While wildlings threat was only for the North, all the west of Westeros suffered very similar threat with the Iron Islander raids. Why haven't they formed the Coastwatch to defend themselves instead of sending those men to help defend the realms of men the Stark demesnes ?

IMO the support given to the Nightswatch is only logical if there was a profund belief in its purpose (the threat of the others for all the realms), but the problem then is how could that belief that survived 7000+ years suddenly disappear in the very last centuries only (perhaps maester anti-magic culture influence ?).

Because a) thirdborn sons are dangerous, especially if they have offspring, b) there was no semi-religious fundament, c) forging a new order is damn difficult and requires tremendous resources and d) the Others still occasionally posed a threat long after the Andal Invasion or were at least witnessed.

[EastTymor]

On the other hand, why not using this labor force for something actually beneffiting your own realm ?

That would best. But if nothing else is available, addition by subtraction is a valid strategy.

While wildlings threat was only for the North, all the west of Westeros suffered very similar threat with the Iron Islander raids. Why haven't they formed the Coastwatch to defend themselves instead of sending those men to help defend the realms of men the Stark demesnes ?

Well, they have a de facto Coastwatch- the regular lords along the coast. They are vastly better armed and supplied, as they have to be to deal with the Ironborn. However, if you're trying to offer a way out of execution for a rebel or get a troublesome third son out of your hair, sending them to the end of the world is preferable to sending them 20 miles over to the coast, where they can still meddle in your affairs.

IMO the support given to the Nightswatch is only logical if there was a profund belief in its purpose (the threat of the others for all the realms), but the problem then is how could that belief that survived 7000+ years suddenly disappear in the very last centuries only (perhaps maester anti-magic culture influence ?).

Multi-millenial histories are troubling, but no more so in this case than any other. I think addition by subtraction in the south and a little self-interest in the North are sufficient explanation.

[Lord Lannister]

Well between the Gift and the fact they have ships capable of trade it's not impossible for them to self-sustain a large force. Honestly I think two things contributed to the decline of the watch.

1) Have no family- Well you pretty much just screw yourself out of the next generation of recruits. The Gift could've sustained villages and families to raise the next generation.

2) They became a joke by constantly cleaning out the dungeons. This in turn caused the general quality of their recruits to go down. The good eggs that volunteer for the Watch were becoming more and more rare. So I imagine the more you draft people, the more are going to desert and the general quality of a conscript's work and fighting skills is going to be less than a volunteer so more casualties over time.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Well for the South it´s basically Australia - a self sustainable prison colony.

This. It's a very convenient place to send inconvenient people.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

8000 years.... It's a long time. In the beginning of the story hardly anyone still believe in the threat of the Others.

For most people, Nightswatch is some useless thing of the past, protecting the realm against "grumpkin and snarks", or at most some garrison protecting the North against wildlings.

Thinking about the wildling threat they hardly threaten anyone but the Starks and their vassals. To reach the Riverlands they would have not only to defeat the full force of Winterfell but also to cross the Neck, southern realms would have years to prepare even in the event of a fall of the wall. And the threat is even smaller for kingdoms like the Iron Islands as the wildling have no fleet, or Dorne completely on the other side of the continent.

Still it seems, for thousands of years, the southern realms (not even part of the same Kingdom before targaryan conquest) continued to send people to the watch, for no reason at all, and while the Nightswatch is in decline it's only very recent (Aemon mentions to Sam that by the time of Aegon's conquest the parent of Harren who was lord commander Nightswatch had 10 thousand men under his orders, 10 times more than actually -which is even stranger when you think that the main power of the time, Harren the Black was certainly not sending prisoners to the Watch but using them as slaves to build Harrenhall).

Even more suprising is the mention of Nymeria (someone not even from Westeros) sending vanquished Dornish kings to the watch (was a thousand years ago but still seven thousands after the long night). What could have been the importance of the Watch for Dorne at this time, when there were like 12 kingdoms to cross between the wall and its fronteer ?

I think you're missing the point. It's not the Watch's importance, it's its unimportance that makes it so attractive. A place where all unwanted element can be dumped, where they'll father no sons, wear no crowns, hold no lands and win no glory. Where they shall live and die at their post, not making trouble in their home land. Perfect.

Whether it's devoted to protecting the realms of men, or, say, documenting mating habits of mollusks, is of secondary importance. "Out of sight" is the Watch's selling point.

[A Bastard Snow]

I think you're missing the point. It's not the Watch's importance, it's its unimportance that makes it so attractive. A place where all unwanted element can be dumped, where they'll father no sons, wear no crowns, hold no lands and win no glory. Where they shall live and die at their post, not making trouble in their home land. Perfect.

Whether it's devoted to protecting the realms of men, or, say, documenting mating habits of mollusks, is of secondary importance. "Out of sight" is the Watch's selling point.

Yea pretty much this.It's a way to exile someone to a place that is in the middle of nowhere where they cant have children and can never leave .Its an easy way to get rid of a problem person that you either can't or don't want to execute

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Whether it's devoted to protecting the realms of men, or, say, documenting mating habits of mollusks, is of secondary importance. "Out of sight" is the Watch's selling point.

(Yes, answering to my own post).

And by the way, wouldn't it be totally awesome if that was the Night's Watch charter? I wonder what their words would be. Something like "I'm the watcher in the grass, the perv with a magnifying glass, the quill that writes snail porn"? Epic.

[Victor227]

The Night's Watch is an excellent medieval 'safety valve' for large noble families (had things proceeded differently, you could bet the instant Walder died, the Night's Watch would be flooded with Freys), and likewise, as a tool for giving incentive for enemies to surrender. Knowing life in prison or a headsman is waiting for you can make a man fight harder. The Night's Watch isn't so bad by comparison.

[Chinoiserie]

What others have said regarding why it was supplied for so long.

The question if why the Watch is no longers as populated as it was at the tile of Aegon's conquest. The explanition I believe is that the warring of the Kingdoms ended and so did the number of the unvanted people ho to decline. I would also like to ad that the Doom of Valyria and the waining of magic might be the reason the Watch became something of a joke. The Others might have been absent for thousands of years but if you know magic is real it is easier to believe in the Others as well.