Did the Others build the walls?

[butterbumps!]

Why the hell should the Others build the Wall?

 

If you happen to believe that humans practice ice magic and that the Others are related to humans such as the Starks (or at least connected in some way), then it makes a whole lot of sense.

 

The WOIAF makes a considerable point of mentioning that the Starks were always fighting the CotF/ warg- related factions.   Brandon of the Bloody Blade in particular went nuts on them, and there's a whole string of CotF and warg- allied factions the Starks continued to fight against for a seemingly long time.

 

That Wall could be "human" (ice wielding humans, and/ or Others, depending on what Others turn out to be) creation used against the CotF and their allies.   Which could explain:

1. why there's no wierwood at the Wall other than what kind of looks like a rogue, hidden one at the Black Gate, which I think might actually exist below the Wall itself
2. why the CotF are all behind that Wall
3. why there's such a hefty concentration of wargs and skinchangers behind it
4. why the Wall doesn't seem to affect wights from animating
5. why the Wall seems to block or at least interfere heavily with warging and skinchanging abilities unless one is stationed directly at a weirwood

 

ETA:  also bear in mind that we don't actually know whether a wight can pass through the Wall.   They un-animate during the day, which is the state the Watchmen found Othor and Jafers in when they carried them through.    We have no idea if they could have walked through the gate-- provided it was actually open-- during their nighttime animation.   So we don't have any indication that wights, other than Coldhands at an enchanted wierwood gate and not the Wall itself, are blocked by the Wall.

[Westorosi Batgirl]

Unless Craster offered them a different pact and they decided to accept it rather than killing him. Why is that impossible?

If you make covenant with a entire race of people and then you make one exception you just broke the covenant with the race as a whole.

[Falcon2908]

No the world of ice and fire has a pic of Giants, men and CoTF building the wall

[Falcon2908]

 

If you happen to believe that humans practice ice magic and that the Others are related to humans such as the Starks (or at least connected in some way), then it makes a whole lot of sense.

 

The WOIAF makes a considerable point of mentioning that the Starks were always fighting the CotF/ warg- related factions.   Brandon of the Bloody Blade in particular went nuts on them, and there's a whole string of CotF and warg- allied factions the Starks continued to fight against for a seemingly long time.

 

That Wall could be "human" (ice wielding humans, and/ or Others, depending on what Others turn out to be) creation used against the CotF and their allies.   Which could explain:

1. why there's no wierwood at the Wall other than what kind of looks like a rogue, hidden one at the Black Gate, which I think might actually exist below the Wall itself
2. why the CotF are all behind that Wall
3. why there's such a hefty concentration of wargs and skinchangers behind it
4. why the Wall doesn't seem to affect wights from animating
5. why the Wall seems to block or at least interfere heavily with warging and skinchanging abilities unless one is stationed directly at a weirwood

 

ETA:  also bear in mind that we don't actually know whether a wight can pass through the Wall.   They un-animate during the day, which is the state the Watchmen found Othor and Jafers in when they carried them through.    We have no idea if they could have walked through the gate-- provided it was actually open-- during their nighttime animation.   So we don't have any indication that wights, other than Coldhands at an enchanted wierwood gate and not the Wall itself, are blocked by the Wall.

Watching Preston Jacobs videos?

[Black Crow]

 

If you happen to believe that humans practice ice magic and that the Others are related to humans such as the Starks (or at least connected in some way), then it makes a whole lot of sense.

 

The WOIAF makes a considerable point of mentioning that the Starks were always fighting the CotF/ warg- related factions.   Brandon of the Bloody Blade in particular went nuts on them, and there's a whole string of CotF and warg- allied factions the Starks continued to fight against for a seemingly long time.

 

That Wall could be "human" (ice wielding humans, and/ or Others, depending on what Others turn out to be) creation used against the CotF and their allies.   Which could explain:

1. why there's no wierwood at the Wall other than what kind of looks like a rogue, hidden one at the Black Gate, which I think might actually exist below the Wall itself
2. why the CotF are all behind that Wall
3. why there's such a hefty concentration of wargs and skinchangers behind it
4. why the Wall doesn't seem to affect wights from animating
5. why the Wall seems to block or at least interfere heavily with warging and skinchanging abilities unless one is stationed directly at a weirwood

 

ETA:  also bear in mind that we don't actually know whether a wight can pass through the Wall.   They un-animate during the day, which is the state the Watchmen found Othor and Jafers in when they carried them through.    We have no idea if they could have walked through the gate-- provided it was actually open-- during their nighttime animation.   So we don't have any indication that wights, other than Coldhands at an enchanted wierwood gate and not the Wall itself, are blocked by the Wall.

 

Its also worth recalling Melisandre's statement about the magic in the Wall and its being one of the great hinges of the world - not just a physical structure built of blocks of ice and stones - a point rather more forcefully made by Ygritte telling Jon of the blood in the Wall and basically describing it as evil.

 

Which gives me another excuse to recall Jannet Clouston's curse:

 

Blood built it

Blood stopped the building of it

And blood will bring it down

Black will be its fall.

 

I really can't think of a more appropriate few lines

[Mithras]

If you make covenant with a entire race of people and then you make one exception you just broke the covenant with the race as a whole.

 

Craster was not the only one who made a pact with the Others. The World Book revealed that some wildlings on the Frozen Shore worship “gods of snow and ice”. There must be hundreds of Crasters out there sacrificing to the Others.

[butterbumps!]

Watching Preston Jacobs videos?

 

Did you happen to read the WOIAF book, or just look at the pictures?

No the world of ice and fire has a pic of Giants, men and CoTF building the wall

The text doesn't quite align to the happy image of interspecies cooperation you're citing.  In particular, the Starks specifically kept beating up CotF and their allies, for what seems like a very long time after that Pact was allegedly made.    

 

 

Its also worth recalling Melisandre's statement about the magic in the Wall and its being one of the great hinges of the world - not just a physical structure built of blocks of ice and stones - a point rather more forcefully made by Ygritte telling Jon of the blood in the Wall and basically describing it as evil.

 

Which gives me another excuse to recall Jannet Clouston's curse:

 

Blood built it

Blood stopped the building of it

And blood will bring it down

Black will be its fall.

 

I really can't think of a more appropriate few lines

I'm glad you brought up Ygritte's words about the evil Wall.  

[Mithras]

The WOIAF makes a considerable point of mentioning that the Starks were always fighting the CotF/ warg- related factions.   Brandon of the Bloody Blade in particular went nuts on them, and there's a whole string of CotF and warg- allied factions the Starks continued to fight against for a seemingly long time.

 

Not for me. My interpretation of Brandon of the Bloody Blade is totally different.

 

 

“The gods give many gifts, Bran. My sister is a hunter. It is given to her to run swiftly, and stand so still she seems to vanish. She has sharp ears, keen eyes, a steady hand with net and spear. She can breathe mud and fly through trees.

 

“No,” said Meera, “but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear.”

 

Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

 

A small, sly people (some say they are small in stature because they intermarried with the children of the forest, but more likely it results from inadequate nourishment, for grains do not flourish amidst the fens and swamps and salt marshes of the Neck, and the crannogmen subsist largely upon a diet of fish, frogs, and lizards), they are quite secretive, preferring to keep to themselves.

 

The God-Kings of Ib, before their fall, did succeed in conquering and colonizing a huge swathe of northern Essos immediately south of Ib itself, a densely wooded region that had formerly been the home of a small, shy forest folk. Some say that the Ibbenese extinguished this gentle race, whilst others believe they went into hiding in the deeper woods or fled to other lands. The Dothraki still call the great forest along the northern coast the Kingdom of the Ifequevron, the name by which they knew the vanished forest-dwellers.

The fabled Sea Snake, Corlys Velaryon, Lord of the Tides, was the first Westerosi to visit these woods. After his return from the Thousand Islands, he wrote of carved trees, haunted grottoes, and strange silences. A later traveler, the merchant-adventurer Bryan of Oldtown, captain of the cog Spearshaker, provided an account of his own journey across the Shivering Sea. He reported that the Dothraki name for the lost people meant “those who walk in the woods.” None of the Ibbenese that Bryan of Oldtown met could say they had ever seen a woods walker, but claimed that the little people blessed a household that left offerings of leaf and stone and water overnight.

 

In the southeast the proud city-states of the Qaathi arose; in the forests to the north, along the shores of the Shivering Sea, were the domains of the woods walkers, a diminutive folk whom many maesters believe to have been kin to the children of the forest;

 

I think the forest-dwellers in the Kingdom of the Ifequevron were human-CotF hybrids similar to the crannogmen. Keeping in mind that wood dancers, woods walkers, crannogmen magic ability to “fly through trees”, consider this:

 

“Some say he [The Night’s King] was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

 

House Woodfoot held Bear Island before the ironmen came. I think House Woodfoot produced some skinchangers and had CotF ancestors too. I also think that the Mormonts are just the same.

 

“No. My children were fathered by a bear.” Alysane smiled. Her teeth were crooked, but there was something ingratiating about that smile. “Mormont women are skinchangers. We turn into bears and find mates in the woods. Everyone knows.”

 

“Dywen says you can find anything beyond the Wall.”

“Aye, Dywen says. And the last time he went ranging, he says he saw a bear fifteen feet tall.” Mormont snorted. “My sister is said to have taken a bear for her lover. I’d believe that before I’d believe one fifteen feet tall. Though in a world where dead come walking . . . ah, even so, a man must believe his eyes. I have seen the dead walk. I’ve not seen any giant bears.” He gave Jon a long, searching look. “But we were speaking of hands. How is yours?”

 

I think some Mormont women occasionally happen to have the gift which comes from their CotF ancestors. This may not be so clear before TWOIAF but we have another perfect example from TWOIAF.

 

ROSE OF RED LAKE, a skinchanger, able to transform into a crane at will— a power some say still manifests from time to time in the women of House Crane, her descendants.

 

House Crane of Red Lake can still produce skinchangers. So, how did the Crane ancestor acquire CotF ancestry?

 

BRANDON OF THE BLOODY BLADE, who drove the giants from the Reach and warred against the children of the forest, slaying so many at Blue Lake that it has been known as Red Lake ever since.

 

Of course, the first impression about this bit says nothing about how the Cranes of Red Lake came to have CotF blood especially after Brandon of the Bloody Blade (who was said to be the ancestor of Starks) supposedly exterminated the CotF at Red Lake.

 

That is so until you remember the metaphor about the bloody blade of another Brandon Stark:

 

“Brandon loved his sword. He loved to hone it. ‘I want it sharp enough to shave the hair from a woman’s cunt,’ he used to say. And how he loved to use it. ‘A bloody sword is a beautiful thing,’ he told me once.”

“You knew him,” Theon said.

The lantern light in her eyes made them seem as if they were afire. “Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I’d later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. And my lord father was always pleased to play host to the heir to Winterfell. My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden’s blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain.

 

Therefore, the truth is that Brandon of the Bloody Blade impregnated a lot of CotF at Red Lake (which was Blue Lake before him) and most of them died while giving birth to his children.

 

He [Winged Knight – a figure from the Age of Heroes] counted giants and merlings amongst his friends, and wed a woman of the children of the forest, though she died giving birth to his son.

 

Because of obvious biological reasons, giving birth to babies fathered by humans is very dangerous (even lethal) for female CotF. That is how Brandon of the Bloody Blade “slew” those CotF and that is how he acquired his nickname. So, House Crane of Red Lake was descended from the progeny of Brandon of the Bloody Blade and CotF that remained at the place.

 

That Wall could be "human" (ice wielding humans, and/ or Others, depending on what Others turn out to be) creation used against the CotF and their allies.   Which could explain:

1. why there's no wierwood at the Wall other than what kind of looks like a rogue, hidden one at the Black Gate, which I think might actually exist below the Wall itself
2. why the CotF are all behind that Wall
3. why there's such a hefty concentration of wargs and skinchangers behind it
4. why the Wall doesn't seem to affect wights from animating
5. why the Wall seems to block or at least interfere heavily with warging and skinchanging abilities unless one is stationed directly at a weirwood

 

This does not explain why many CotF lived south of the Wall for a long time after the Wall was built and why they fought side by side with the First Men against the Andals.

 

ETA:  also bear in mind that we don't actually know whether a wight can pass through the Wall.   They un-animate during the day, which is the state the Watchmen found Othor and Jafers in when they carried them through.    We have no idea if they could have walked through the gate-- provided it was actually open-- during their nighttime animation.   So we don't have any indication that wights, other than Coldhands at an enchanted wierwood gate and not the Wall itself, are blocked by the Wall.

 

I know well enough that Othor and Jafers were fully functional wights under the day light and when the wights attacked Bran’s party, the sun had not set yet. You might have a different interpretation of the texts for these particular cases but I will stick to mine.

[Westorosi Batgirl]

Craster was not the only one who made a pact with the Others. The World Book revealed that some wildlings on the Frozen Shore worship “gods of snow and ice”. There must be hundreds of Crasters out there sacrificing to the Others.

I know this what I am getting at is if the Others didn't want humans north of the wall they wouldn't give them the chance to sacrifice to them.

[TeamRhllor]

Why not? People have access to magic in the world of asoiaf. What is so hard to believe... The height? They have had a heck of a long time to do it! The magic? Many different people use magic of varying sources throughout the series. Why is it so hard to believe that people could build Harrenhal, etc but not the Wall?

It's like thousands of miles (or 300ish) long and 700 feet high. And stone is strong enough to support that massive weight, ice isn't.

[Black Crow]

Three hundred miles long as I recall, but as for the height the higher it is the harder it is to get blocks of ice up there. The business of each Lord Commander leaving it a bit higher is most likely originating in a grim joke about the amount of grit spread on the wallhead each yeart.

[TeamRhllor]

I know this what I am getting at is if the Others didn't want humans north of the wall they wouldn't give them the chance to sacrifice to them.

But why not? It's a mutually beneficial arrangement.

[mywintersong]

It's like thousands of miles (or 300ish) long and 700 feet high. And stone is strong enough to support that massive weight, ice isn't.

 

The Great Wall of China is longer though shorter. Men built it without the aid of giants or magic, just taking a really long time and untold numbers of lost lives. The Wall in ASOIAF is built with magic. I fail to see why the Wall is an impossible construction but Hightower, Harrenhal, the pyramids in Essos, the House the Undying, etc are all possible. 

 

Three hundred miles long as I recall, but as for the height the higher it is the harder it is to get blocks of ice up there. The business of each Lord Commander leaving it a bit higher is most likely originating in a grim joke about the amount of grit spread on the wallhead each yeart.

 

Doesn't Snow mention previous generations of watchmen hauling large blocks of ice from North of the Wall? Do you think this is a legend? I mean, I have a hard time figuring out how they would do it, myself, once it got hundreds of feet high and they had no magic to draw from. 

 

OP, we'd told you why we think the Others DIDN'T build the Wall. Your turn. What textual evidence do you have that they did? I am wracking my brain trying to think of some and I can't. What am I missing? 

[Westorosi Batgirl]

But why not? It's a mutually beneficial arrangement.

In your premise you said the Others and man entered into a covenant that man would stay on the south side of the wall because the Others were stupid and built and made the wall impossible to pass through. We know however that the Others are willing to let humans love North of the wall if they sacrifice their new born sons to them. This second covenant would break and therefore invalidate the previous covenant. Which should mean that anyone can live North of the wall without fear of the Others because the Others stupidly broke the first covenant. Yet the Others still attack which means either your premise is flawed or the Others are idiots.

[Westorosi Batgirl]

Double post

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

Coldhands, a former brother of the nights watch, was not allowed to pass beyond the wall to help Bran. Why? Because he's a wight.

 

He claims he's not allowed...

 

Words are Wind.

[Lisa0527]

Has anyone seen any signs of any technology in Westeros or Essos that could possibly have built the wall? Had to be magic! Maybe the Others? Maybe the CofTF? Not men.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

 

Not for me. My interpretation of Brandon of the Bloody Blade is totally different.

 

 

 

also all the clues of Brandon the builder being a CotF or a half breed, support that interpretation of Brandon of the bloddy blade...

[LmL]

“Why didn’t he come with you?” Meera gestured toward Gilly and her babe. “ They came with you, why not him? Why didn’t you bring him through this Black Gate too?” 

“He … he can’t.” 

“Why not?”

 

“The Wall. The Wall is more than just ice and stone, he said. There are spells woven into it … old ones, and strong. He cannot pass beyond the Wall.” It grew very quiet in the castle kitchen then. Bran could hear the soft crackle of the flames, the wind stirring the leaves in the night, the creak of the skinny weirwood reaching for the moon. Beyond the gates the monsters live, and the giants and the ghouls, he remembered Old Nan saying, but they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong. So go to sleep, my little Brandon, my baby boy. You needn’t fear. There are no monsters here.  (ASOS, Bran)

 

Of course, perhaps Coldhands AND Old Nan are both wrong, but I would place the chances of that at slim to "have you ever fucking read these books?"  We don't know who set the spells or exactly why, but they are a barrier to Coldhands, at the least. And the barrier is NBOT the black gate, it is the Wall itself.  That's made abundantly clear here. 

 

This is a match for the language at Storm's End:

Together they tied off the sail as the boat rocked beneath them. As Davos unshipped the oars and slid them into the choppy black water, he said, “Who rowed you to Renly?” 

“There was no need,” she said. “He was unprotected. But here … this Storm’s End is an old place. There are spells woven into the stones. Dark walls that no shadow can pass— ancient, forgotten, yet still in place.” 

“Shadow?” Davos felt his flesh prickling. “A shadow is a thing of darkness.” 

“You are more ignorant than a child, ser knight. :bs: There are no shadows in the dark. :bs: Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. :bs:  :bs:  :bs: The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows.”   :bs: (ACOK, Davos)

 

As an aside, I've flagged Melisandre's diatribe with BS markers because she is full of it here.  It is objects obstructing light which cast shadows, not light.  Darkness is shadow - if you're in a room that is totally dark, that's because there are objects all around you, blocking the light.  Light, by itself, makes no shadows.  There is light everywhere in the universe except inside of a black hole -  abscense of light means that something is obstructing the light.  When Mel casts shadows, she is light-blocking, in a symbolic sense.  Creating a space for darkness to take life. Yeah, that's creepy, it ain't no "sacred gift of the lord of light." This is a major deception of the Red Temple - they don't understand that they are using shadow fire, not bright fire - all their magic is associated with shadow. But I digress. 

 

R'hllorist theology aside, old spells set into the stones at both locations, and both tied to Brandon the Builder. The idea of not allowing shadows to pass calls to mind that the Others are described as "pale shadows" and "white shadows."  There's also the suggestion that there is a stone foundation beneath the Wall.  That's probably the one built by "Brandon the Builder" or at least the people building with that technology that was attributed to him. 

[falcotron]

If you make covenant with a entire race of people and then you make one exception you just broke the covenant with the race as a whole.

Really? No one in history has ever negotiated an exception to any treaty without invalidating the entire treaty?