Heresy 177

[Melifeather]

Mel's shadow babies resembled Stannis ( davos and Cat both noticed) and the White Walkers we see all look alike so i assume they're all coming from the same "source".   For me they seem very similar just from opposite ends of the spectrum (ice and fire), i could even imagine the White walkers taking a much less solid form (mist)  like the shadow babies if say it wasnt so cold when they came.

 

But what's odd is these shadow magic babies don't come from blood at all but from Stannis' "seed" which has me thinking maybe the W.Walkers come from a similar method.  Which could mean the 13th lord commander was making these White walkers ( ice babies).  And then you have to ask who was the icy woman the 13th commander ran into maybe its the equivalent to Val if she is some icy version of Melisandre

 

 

I have thought about this process before and my opinion is that perhaps we need to consider the opposite properties of Ice and Fire. Tell me what you think of the following thoughts...

 

Shadowbabies are created by drawing life from a living "victim"... Stannis was a victim even though he seemed to go through the process willingly. I believe he was seduced into doing so. Melisandre said the brighter the light the darker the shadow. Does Melisandre actually mean the light from a fire or the sun, or does she mean the living life force of someone yet alive? Melisandre said of Stannis afterwards that "his light grows dim". Are we to understand then that any future shadows taken from Stannis would be weaker?

 

White walkers on the other hand avoid the light so the darker the night the brighter the ???.  I want to insert "reflection" in the previous sentence, because technically they have no color. They're made of ice and ice would reflect and sparkle like a diamond from any minuscule amount of light that happened to be out on any given night. The light from the moon and the stars, or their reflection off the snow is the source of light that creates the camouflaged, dappled appearance that they are described as having. 

 

I believe white walkers are created by sacrificing a life and drawing the spirit out of the bones. It has to be done simultaneously at the time of death, otherwise the dead would simply become wights. With the spirit extracted, the remains cannot also become a wight as wights still have their spirit trapped in the bones. That is why they have some memory from when they were yet alive.

 

Stannis was an adult victim of fire magic, so perhaps Craster's son's were infant sacrifices to ice magic.

[Ser Didymus]

I just watched "7 Days in Hell" starring Andy Samberg and Kit Harrington as rival tennis players. This is a few leaps too many, but I can't resist.

There is a point during the mockumentary when Harrington's character is asked if he is a better tennis player than samberg's character; to which he responds non-chalantly, "...yeah."

The narrator (Jon Hamm) proceeds to say, while the image on the screen is a freeze-frame of Kit Harrington (game of thrones : Jon Snow), "and with a seemingly innocuous statement that should have gone unnoticed, Charles (Harrington) awoke a sleeping dragon."

[WitteRaaf]

Has anyone read - the mythical astronomy of ice and fire? I stumbled across it. I'm new to the forum and am a bit overwhelmed with navigation. Where would I go to read more like it?

[wolfmaid7]

 

 

Its certainly possible, just as in traditional vampire lore the bite passes on whatever it is that turns victims into vampires. Overall though I think that we are seeing the traditional tropes here but re-imagined by GRRM in strange and interesting ways.

 

The Starks and other wargs are werewolves by any other name, but rather than physically changing shape either at will or by moonlight they and wolves switch identities.

 

Vampires also exist, but not necessarily as individuals who emerge by night to get up close and personal, but rather in the form of magic, whether as the old gods in the weirwoods or anywhere else, which feeds upon blood and will do things for those who feed it, whether bringing down the Hammer of the waters or raising the Wall.

 

I think these are great analogies by the way BC.And i agree with you the trees have a lot to do with it.I'm reminded of Stargate-SG1 and the relationship between the Gaould and the human host.There was always the arguement concerning how much of the host survived and the relationship of the Tokra and Gaould differed with their host. The Gaould took host and hit you over the head with nothing of the host survives,while the Tokra insist something of the host does.So in the matter of the Weirwood trees which do get off on blood but only if their's someone to do the sacrifice so in effect its more symbiotic .What happens if they get no more blood? Do they stop stirring?And if according to the WB that a mass sacrifice caused the gods to stir,then maybe something of that nature happened this time around.Maybe beyond the Wall.

Hey guys! Lurker on the forums and brand new to the Heresy pages but it's all really great stuff. 

On the current topic of blood as a catalyst or necessary part of magic, how do you think this relates to the Wall or even some of the other "hinges of the world"? The building of the wall obviously took magic but whose blood would have been sacrificed to build it? And it seems like it would take an extraordinary large amount of magic to build such a colossal structure. I know the Night's King was said to be the 13th LC, but was the wall completed by the time he was in charge? And could his alleged sacrifices be an integral part of the building and completion of the wall? Sorry if this has been discussed before!

Hello there and welcome to the madness....Take your shoes off and enjoy.Good questions.Ygritte for one thinks that blood went into its building and i think she's right.But i think people from who we got the Wildlings had to pay that price.I'll look for it in past Heresies concerning the Wall.But GRRM did say  "the Wall took hundreds of years to buld and thousands of years to complete." I took that to mean the lore and spells were finished in a few hundred years and man just started piling Snow on top of if.Mormont had said each LC tried to make it higher.So they just added physically to what was already magically done.

 

ETA: I think the wws had a hand in building the wall itself thiugh they may not have been the brains behind it.

Mel's shadow babies resembled Stannis ( davos and Cat both noticed) and the White Walkers we see all look alike so i assume they're all coming from the same "source".   For me they seem very similar just from opposite ends of the spectrum (ice and fire), i could even imagine the White walkers taking a much less solid form (mist)  like the shadow babies if say it wasnt so cold when they came.

 

But what's odd is these shadow magic babies don't come from blood at all but from Stannis' "seed" which has me thinking maybe the W.Walkers come from a similar method.  Which could mean the 13th lord commander was making these White walkers ( ice babies).  And then you have to ask who was the icy woman the 13th commander ran into maybe its the equivalent to Val if she is some icy version of Melisandre

 

JNR had proposed that the wws might be a result of shadowbinding,which if you break it down to the nitty gritty there are some parallels and connections that make you say hmmmm.Magically sex and blood magic have a similar component "life" and how the wws come to be is still a matter of debate.

What chance Joramun was a woman? (Pet crackpot. Just throwing it out there.)

 

Snowy, you trying to make people do 'rel' brain work this evening.That would be crazy awesome what sparked that thought?

Has anyone read - the mythical astronomy of ice and fire? I stumbled across it. I'm new to the forum and am a bit overwhelmed with navigation. Where would I go to read more like it?

Try the general section of the main page and look for a a poster "LML" he has links to all his Astronomy stuff.

[Eira Seren]

What chance Joramun was a woman? (Pet crackpot. Just throwing it out there.)

You're just going to leave that there, no explanation?

[WitteRaaf]

Got it. Thanks

[Sly Wren]

 

I think these are great analogies by the way BC.And i agree with you the trees have a lot to do with it.I'm reminded of Stargate-SG1 and the relationship between the Gaould and the human host.There was always the arguement concerning how much of the host survived and the relationship of the Tokra and Gaould differed with their host. The Gaould took host and hit you over the head with nothing of the host survives,while the Tokra insist something of the host does.So in the matter of the Weirwood trees which do get off on blood but only if their's someone to do the sacrifice so in effect its more symbiotic .What happens if they get no more blood? Do they stop stirring?And if according to the WB that a mass sacrifice caused the gods to stir,then maybe something of that nature happened this time around.Maybe beyond the Wall.

I agree that there may have been a big sacrifice or some kind of sacrifice to get things started. Maybe a build-up--Craster hasn't been alive forever. I am very partial to Craster's boys=ww. But if they are sacrificed also or instead--could see the sacrifices building up.

 

But am also circling the scene when Bran tastes the blood from the past sacrifice. I know there are theories that Bran can time travel. But I'm wondering if this is simpler-ish. 

 

Bran tastes the blood because all time and all sacrifices are stored in the trees. Which might mean they don't need a mass of blood to wake--just the waking of magic. "The glass candles are burning" and "the trees have eyes again"--magic is awake. The blood memories in the trees are awake. So, maybe don't need more sacrifices. Maybe.

[Sly Wren]

Shadowbabies are created by drawing life from a living "victim"... Stannis was a victim even though he seemed to go through the process willingly. I believe he was seduced into doing so. Melisandre said the brighter the light the darker the shadow. Does Melisandre actually mean the light from a fire or the sun, or does she mean the living life force of someone yet alive? Melisandre said of Stannis afterwards that "his light grows dim". Are we to understand then that any future shadows taken from Stannis would be weaker?

 

Stannis was an adult victim of fire magic, so perhaps Craster's son's were infant sacrifices to ice magic.

I agree--Stannis chooses the sacrifice himself, though he doesn't seem to fully understand consequences. Reminds me of Dany with Drogo. She offers herself, Mirri says "not you" and "not horse." Dany says, "go for it," apparently knowing that means someone in the vicinity will be sacrificed. Then she balks at the consequences. 

 

Stannis and Mel's shadow babies seem to have that quality. Even Mel seems to have moments of doubt. Perhaps that's why Stannis burns less--he's given something of himself by choice while trying to keep himself. As does Mel--black blood flowing.

 

Craster's sons are given whole and entire against their will--perhaps that's why the result is more substantial walkers vs. shadows.

 

White walkers on the other hand avoid the light so the darker the night the brighter the ???.  I want to insert "reflection" in the previous sentence, because technically they have no color. They're made of ice and ice would reflect and sparkle like a diamond from any minuscule amount of light that happened to be out on any given night. The light from the moon and the stars, or their reflection off the snow is the source of light that creates the camouflaged, dappled appearance that they are described as having. 

 

I believe white walkers are created by sacrificing a life and drawing the spirit out of the bones. It has to be done simultaneously at the time of death, otherwise the dead would simply become wights. With the spirit extracted, the remains cannot also become a wight as wights still have their spirit trapped in the bones. That is why they have some memory from when they were yet alive.

I like the reflection idea. Changeable as the moon and stars. But they seem to rise at twilight, not just dark night. Would be interesting to see if they get stronger as night gets darker. 

 

And I like the idea of drawing spirit out of bones--but something must then go back in. They have "personality." They joke and talk. Given the vampire discussion above, I now have Buffy vampires in my head.

 

Or perhaps the soul is altered--Mel's soul seems altered. Still, human will and agency in these novels is stressed--am thinking you're idea of the soul being drawn out could make more sense than alteration.

[Sly Wren]

Who do you think the Night's Watch( or whoever built it) was sacrificing then? And how would they get that many sacrifices? Could that have a connection to Craster in anyway as we see him sacrificing sons to what seems to be the Others? And we hear that long ago, that joining the Watch was considered an Honor by those of High birth that were second or third sons and had little chance to inherit land. We still see this with Royce and even Jon Snow. But before the conquest could "king's blood" have applied to all those who were born of royalty in their respective parts of the world? And if so could this relate to the "Honor" of joining the watch because you would be used as a sacrifice maybe, as your blood was considered worth more than that of the small folk or a criminal? Or is it that just because the threat to the North was actually a threat way back then? And could this not even connect to Craster and maybe King's blood as he is the "king of his castle" to a degree? 

Welcome, welcome! I'd say "dive on in" but you already have with questions like this, so  :cheers: .

 

I agree with what Tucu, and Black Crow, and Wolfmaid have said above.

 

But would add that we've also seen a modern sacrifice--Jon's pincushion impression. They sacrifice him "for the watch" even though he was ready to risk his life for them--and the North. Built of his blood, too. 

 

What chance Joramun was a woman? (Pet crackpot. Just throwing it out there.)

So--Joramunda?

 

And only just realized it has a similar root to "Jorah" and Jeor." Should have see that this sooner.

 

Any specific reason why this is a pet? I can't see this could go . . .  

[Sly Wren]

Just one more and then no more yapping bird. Just a lot to think about tonight. Apologies for format--haven't yet figured how to quote from locked threads.

 

@Voice of the First Men: Posted Yesterday, 12:38 PM

Mayhaps LS is GRRM's play on the Sword in the Stone? One can hope.

 

@aDanceWithFlagons: Posted Yesterday, 01:25 PM

And perhaps a twist on the Lady of the lake.

 

@Voice of the First Men: Posted Yesterday, 02:33 PM

I could definitely see that. Combine Nimue and the Stone and you have yourself Lady Stoneheart, born from the Lake Trident.

 

Agreed. Have been looking at basic Lady of the Lake stuff when I get the chance because my head keeps looping on Jon as Sword of the Morning. Seems like he has already had a presentation of a sword. And one of the Nimue legends--she takes him into a cave for a marathon tryst.

 

But Stoneheart--seems like a mix of the magic of Nimue via Beric and the AA myth about sacrificing something you love. But since I'm also holding out for a Catelyn redemption--am focusing also on how Martin has let us into her un-dead head. Could also see her sacrificing self in some way. Killing Cat would be devastating to Brienne, but would mirror Jaime's actions with Aerys. But I also think Martin is showing us UnCat's thoughts for a reason. . . 

[TheSmallOther]

 

I think these are great analogies by the way BC.And i agree with you the trees have a lot to do with it.I'm reminded of Stargate-SG1 and the relationship between the Gaould and the human host.There was always the arguement concerning how much of the host survived and the relationship of the Tokra and Gaould differed with their host. The Gaould took host and hit you over the head with nothing of the host survives,while the Tokra insist something of the host does.So in the matter of the Weirwood trees which do get off on blood but only if their's someone to do the sacrifice so in effect its more symbiotic .What happens if they get no more blood? Do they stop stirring?And if according to the WB that a mass sacrifice caused the gods to stir,then maybe something of that nature happened this time around.Maybe beyond the Wall.

Hello there and welcome to the madness....Take your shoes off and enjoy.Good questions.Ygritte for one thinks that blood went into its building and i think she's right.But i think people from who we got the Wildlings had to pay that price.I'll look for it in past Heresies concerning the Wall.But GRRM did say  "the Wall took hundreds of years to buld and thousands of years to complete." I took that to mean the lore and spells were finished in a few hundred years and man just started piling Snow on top of if.Mormont had said each LC tried to make it higher.So they just added physically to what was already magically done.

 

ETA: I think the wws had a hand in building the wall itself thiugh they may not have been the brains behind it.

 

JNR had proposed that the wws might be a result of shadowbinding,which if you break it down to the nitty gritty there are some parallels and connections that make you say hmmmm.Magically sex and blood magic have a similar component "life" and how the wws come to be is still a matter of debate.

 

Snowy, you trying to make people do 'rel' brain work this evening.That would be crazy awesome what sparked that thought?

Try the general section of the main page and look for a a poster "LML" he has links to all his Astronomy stuff.

 

While I like the thought about Wall being protection for the North, not from the North, there are few issues here. E.g., why use magic to build the wall? South will come with steel and fist, it's enough to build strong and high wall.

[Black Crow]

I agree that there may have been a big sacrifice or some kind of sacrifice to get things started. Maybe a build-up--Craster hasn't been alive forever. I am very partial to Craster's boys=ww. But if they are sacrificed also or instead--could see the sacrifices building up.

 

But am also circling the scene when Bran tastes the blood from the past sacrifice. I know there are theories that Bran can time travel. But I'm wondering if this is simpler-ish. 

 

Bran tastes the blood because all time and all sacrifices are stored in the trees. Which might mean they don't need a mass of blood to wake--just the waking of magic. "The glass candles are burning" and "the trees have eyes again"--magic is awake. The blood memories in the trees are awake. So, maybe don't need more sacrifices. Maybe.

 

Or perhaps more likely, something has triggered the awakening of magic - and like anyone else waking up, its hungry...

[wolfmaid7]

 
While I like the thought about Wall being protection for the North, not from the North, there are few issues here. E.g., why use magic to build the wall? South will come with steel and fist, it's enough to build strong and high wall.

I dont think it was meant to prevent steel but just what it said on the box its a ward against that which takes skins.

[Black Crow]

 

While I like the thought about Wall being protection for the North, not from the North, there are few issues here. E.g., why use magic to build the wall? South will come with steel and fist, it's enough to build strong and high wall.

 

This is something we've discussed in the past. The Wall, even allowing for GRRM's comment that he made the Wall too high* isn't a military fortification. It simply exists and as I said above for the first half of its existence when you would expect perceptions of the supposed threat to be greater there were no castles and presumably no garrison. That only changed for some reason [and the only reason we've got so far is the overthrow of the Nights King] thousands of years after it was built - hence one of the oldest theories in Heresy that its a magically raised [and maintained] demarcation line.

 

 

 

 

 

*don't have a link but seemingly he said this on seeing the "half-size" version created by the mummers in an old quarry

[Melifeather]

 

I think these are great analogies by the way BC.And i agree with you the trees have a lot to do with it.I'm reminded of Stargate-SG1 and the relationship between the Gaould and the human host.There was always the arguement concerning how much of the host survived and the relationship of the Tokra and Gaould differed with their host. The Gaould took host and hit you over the head with nothing of the host survives,while the Tokra insist something of the host does.So in the matter of the Weirwood trees which do get off on blood but only if their's someone to do the sacrifice so in effect its more symbiotic .What happens if they get no more blood? Do they stop stirring?And if according to the WB that a mass sacrifice caused the gods to stir,then maybe something of that nature happened this time around.Maybe beyond the Wall.

Hello there and welcome to the madness....Take your shoes off and enjoy.Good questions.Ygritte for one thinks that blood went into its building and i think she's right.But i think people from who we got the Wildlings had to pay that price.I'll look for it in past Heresies concerning the Wall.But GRRM did say  "the Wall took hundreds of years to buld and thousands of years to complete." I took that to mean the lore and spells were finished in a few hundred years and man just started piling Snow on top of if.Mormont had said each LC tried to make it higher.So they just added physically to what was already magically done.

 

ETA: I think the wws had a hand in building the wall itself thiugh they may not have been the brains behind it.

 

JNR had proposed that the wws might be a result of shadowbinding,which if you break it down to the nitty gritty there are some parallels and connections that make you say hmmmm.Magically sex and blood magic have a similar component "life" and how the wws come to be is still a matter of debate.

 

Snowy, you trying to make people do 'rel' brain work this evening.That would be crazy awesome what sparked that thought?

Try the general section of the main page and look for a a poster "LML" he has links to all his Astronomy stuff.

 

 

Sorry Wolfmaid, but I think I linked the wrong quote to comment on...I wanted to expand on the blood sacrifice and feeding the vampiric weirwoods. There's a couple instances where blood is "drank eagerly" either by the ground or the snows, so maybe more present (tense) sacrifices woke the ice magic?

 

 

I agree--Stannis chooses the sacrifice himself, though he doesn't seem to fully understand consequences. Reminds me of Dany with Drogo. She offers herself, Mirri says "not you" and "not horse." Dany says, "go for it," apparently knowing that means someone in the vicinity will be sacrificed. Then she balks at the consequences. 

 

Stannis and Mel's shadow babies seem to have that quality. Even Mel seems to have moments of doubt. Perhaps that's why Stannis burns less--he's given something of himself by choice while trying to keep himself. As does Mel--black blood flowing.

 

Craster's sons are given whole and entire against their will--perhaps that's why the result is more substantial walkers vs. shadows.

 

I like the reflection idea. Changeable as the moon and stars. But they seem to rise at twilight, not just dark night. Would be interesting to see if they get stronger as night gets darker. 

 

And I like the idea of drawing spirit out of bones--but something must then go back in. They have "personality." They joke and talk. Given the vampire discussion above, I now have Buffy vampires in my head.

 

Or perhaps the soul is altered--Mel's soul seems altered. Still, human will and agency in these novels is stressed--am thinking you're idea of the soul being drawn out could make more sense than alteration.

 

 

The white walkers aren't inhabiting the bodies of humans. I'm saying they are a shadow just like the shadows drawn out of Stannis. The spirit which resides in bones is being used to create the shadows in both instances. Fire magic leaves the human alive, while ice magic is drawn from the dead. The dead then have nothing left in the bones. The white walkers of old were eliminated somehow, and the current story white walkers are fairly new. They could be Craster's sons... but they could come from long dead bodies too....we have to consider that, because it should be the opposite of a living human so why not something that is long dead? There also must be someone or something that is drawing out these spirits and creating the white shadows.

[Melifeather]

If it turns out that it is the Children that are creating the white walkers, then it could be that they are collecting Craster's sons and sacrificing their blood to facilitate the drawing of the spirits from the long dead. Then, because they are meat eaters they eat the dead remains, which would account for the tiny bones scattered in their cave.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

You're just going to leave that there, no explanation?

 

Well, yeah.  I have no explanation.

 

  :D

 

 

So--Joramunda?

 

And only just realized it has a similar root to "Jorah" and Jeor." Should have see that this sooner.

 

Any specific reason why this is a pet? I can't see this could go . . .  

 

Oh... Joramunda!  Hadn't thought of that.  That would work.  

 

It first occurred to me as being one possible reason why Joramun is never explicitly identified as a King-beyond-the-Wall.  And ever since, I just sorta thought it would be cool.   B)

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

... i could even imagine the White walkers taking a much less solid form (mist)  like the shadow babies if say it wasnt so cold when they came.

 

But what's odd is these shadow magic babies don't come from blood at all but from Stannis' "seed" which has me thinking maybe the W.Walkers come from a similar method.  Which could mean the 13th lord commander was making these White walkers ( ice babies).  And then you have to ask who was the icy woman the 13th commander ran into...

 

I think this is a good theory, yes.  

[Eira Seren]

 
Well, yeah.  I have no explanation.
 
  :D
 
 
 
Oh... Joramunda!  Hadn't thought of that.  That would work.  
 
It first occurred to me as being one possible reason why Joramun is never explicitly identified as a King-beyond-the-Wall.  And ever since, I just sorta thought it would be cool.   B)

Ah. It's an interesting idea for the omission (unless really it's not an intentional omission... GRRM was busy eating a bagel and just forgot to add that part. Or maybe forgot to type the "a" in Joramunda :) )

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

 

 

I have thought about this process before and my opinion is that perhaps we need to consider the opposite properties of Ice and Fire. Tell me what you think of the following thoughts...

 

Shadowbabies are created by drawing life from a living "victim"... Stannis was a victim even though he seemed to go through the process willingly. I believe he was seduced into doing so. Melisandre said the brighter the light the darker the shadow. Does Melisandre actually mean the light from a fire or the sun, or does she mean the living life force of someone yet alive? Melisandre said of Stannis afterwards that "his light grows dim". Are we to understand then that any future shadows taken from Stannis would be weaker?

 

White walkers on the other hand avoid the light so the darker the night the brighter the ???.  I want to insert "reflection" in the previous sentence, because technically they have no color. They're made of ice and ice would reflect and sparkle like a diamond from any minuscule amount of light that happened to be out on any given night. The light from the moon and the stars, or their reflection off the snow is the source of light that creates the camouflaged, dappled appearance that they are described as having. 

 

I believe white walkers are created by sacrificing a life and drawing the spirit out of the bones. It has to be done simultaneously at the time of death, otherwise the dead would simply become wights. With the spirit extracted, the remains cannot also become a wight as wights still have their spirit trapped in the bones. That is why they have some memory from when they were yet alive.

 

Stannis was an adult victim of fire magic, so perhaps Craster's son's were infant sacrifices to ice magic.

i was thinking the same thing just a different kind of bone.

 I'm leaning towards the Nights King (or someone making the equivalent sacrifices) planting his seed in an icy version of Melisandre and the resulting children being mist babies turned into ice babies because of the cold..... Im bored so im just throwing crap on the wall to see if it sticks