A Game of Thrones a tad bit Orientalist?

[All-for-Joffrey]

So in anticipation of a soon-ish announcement that Dance is done and the upcoming Mystery Knight novella, I've started a reread of the series and Dunk and Egg novellas. I just finished my reread of AGOT, this is my only reread and the last time I read the book I was about 15. I love ASOIAF to death but on this read through I couldn't help but notice how incredibly off Dany's Dothraki/eastern plot line felt in comparison to the rest of action based in Westeros. Granted, I always felt that Dany's AGOT plot arc was sort of underdeveloped and contrived for writing of Martin's caliber but found it semi-enjoyable nonetheless. However, reading through this time the Dothraki seem so savage and simple.

I understand that they're based on ancient Mongol/Turkic people who were extremely brutal with those they conquered but they just lack the complexity of the European-based Westeros. Martin does an amazing job depicting the savagrey and barbarity in Westeros but he does it in a more "civilized" framework (yes, I am aware of the irony of using the word civilized in a thread dealing with orientalism) where as the Dothraki are depicted as outright savages. They have heart-eating rituals and sack anyone and everyone they can. Nomadic Turks and Mongols usually gave cities and towns a chance to yield, assimilate into their empire and collect their tax wealth and revenue before invading or conquering an area. In Westeros, rape is common enough in times of war but among the Dothraki, they rape their own women for seemingly no reason and have no qualms about nonchalantly killing their own tribesmen. It's almost like a whole horde of Gregor Cleganes. When they do invade an area (the Lhazareeni town) rape seems far more widespread than it does in Westeros (every Dothraki rider seems to feel it's their right to rape a woman where as in Westeros, while rape is still pretty widespread, not every knight goes around raping women). They also massacre everyone, including the old, sick, women and children, having no understanding of "civilized" rules of war (yes, another contradictory term, especially in this series, I know). They have heart-eating rituals and are incredibly incredibly dismissive of women and the elderly, something that, actually, does not jive well with ancient Turkic and Mongol values at all. On top of that, when they speak, it's often in sterotypical broken/awkward English. This is understandable and actually an example of good writing when they're speaking Westerosi or bastardized Valyarian with Dany, Jorah and Viserys but I noted a few points in the texts where they're presumabley speaking Dothraki (on account of the fact that they're speaking with other Dothraki) but still speak awkwardly.

I guess what I'm getting at is that GRRM attempted to create a culture based off of the ancient Turks/Mongols but either his understanding of these people was affected from an orientalist world outlook or he just didn't invest enough time, effort and skill into writing and bringing to life the Dothraki (or likely some combination thereof). Basically, the Dothraki are really just sloppily done characitures based of an entire "eastern" or "other" nomadic, horse-based culture that makes Westerosi society look enlightened and peaceable by comparison. Does anyone else feel this way?

[Horza]

I'm also a bit skeevy of that aspect, but what works me up more is Qarth, which is a completely by-the-numbers Bizarre Oriental Entrepot full of Devious Debauched Potentates and Sinister Magicians into which our Young White Female Protagonist must tread carefully because Danger Lurks Round Every Corner. Every character she meets is Treacherous or a Catamite with the exception of the Inscrutable Qaithe

Seriously, Martin's usually quite good at subverting fantasy tropes but there isn't a bar of it in those chapters, which is quite disappointing.

[All-for-Joffrey]

I'm also a bit skeevy of that aspect, but what works me up more is Qarth, which is a completely by-the-numbers Bizarre Oriental Entrepot full of Devious Debauched Potentates and Sinister Magicians into which our Young White Female Protagonist must tread carefully because Danger Lurks Round Every Corner.

Seriously, Martin's usually quite good at subverting fantasy tropes but there isn't a bar of it in those chapters, which is quite disappointing.

Yeah that was in the back of my mind but I really don't remember those chapters that well except for the House of the Undying part, which was pretty cool. I'm not far enough into Clash to weigh in yet but after I finish the four Dany chapters in that book I'll probably come back and post my thoughts on it.

[Lady Blackfish]

I admit I have trouble with Dany's setting for this reason, not that I'm sure I'd call it Orientalist (maybe he's working off of fantasy conventions with enough awareness to cover that, I don't know). But the setting seems quite flatter than Westeros, yes. I wonder if it's a product of Dany's personal perspective, but I have a feeling that wouldn't cover all of it.

The subversion might come in the form of comparing it to Westeros, viewing her setting as the acknowledged "other" perspective, but I'm not sure where that thought process goes. Anyway, I have a hard time ferreting out individual personalities in her supporting cast sometimes, while the Greyjoys are all distinct despite being quite "savage".

[Mongrel]

I don't think lack of screentime can be blamed for the shallowness of the Eastern setting. Braavos only had 4 chapters taking place in it and IMO, it seems deeper.

I think there are several other factors contributing to that "flatness". From least to most important:

- The setting seems stereotypically Oriental (what the OP said).

- There are no important characters of Eastern origin, so their motives remain opaque to the narrative eye.

- The question of who Dany is and how people interact with her. Everybody worships her, fears her, wants to take advantage of her, lusts after her, or a combination of the former.

[Acid Rainbow]

I agree so much with the OP. I also thought the Dothraki were ridiculous walking caricatures. Even when they're supposedly speaking in their native language, they have wooden dialogue in broken English. The most annoying thing was that Khal Drogo seemed to be the only decent Dothraki in the world, and their annoying little catchphrases.

I really want Dany's Dothraki handmaids to meet Melisandre at some point. Then they can go "You know nothing" - "It is known" back and forth forever.

[gladius]

I don't think lack of screentime can be blamed for the shallowness of the Eastern setting.

It has to be, otherwise Dany Sue would be already dead / irrelevant. It's one of GRRMs faults.

[Ran]

GRRM's depiction of the east beyond the Free Cities draws somewhat on Jack Vance and George Macdonald Fraser, and yeah, it does draw a lot from depictions of the Orient as Edward Said and others have critically examined.

The Dothraki are, certainly, an extremely sketchy culture, and I'd put this down to GRRM having a particular aim and not needing anything but the barest, cliched sketch to fulfill that. I think Meereen and Qarth are much fully fleshed out (the way I figure this out is, perhaps, unique: I wonder, 'So, if I were running a game, could I flesh out what's in the book to make it work as a setting?' I could do this for the slaver cities, Qarth, the Free Cities, but the Dothraki are simply too untethered from realistic detail).

But certainly, a big part of their role is to present obstacles to Dany, who happens to possess the most valuable items in the world (her dragons) and naturally everyone wants to get ahold of them, by hook or by crook; and so we get a rather one-sided perspective. I'm sure had GRRM's intentions for Qarth had been more extensive, we might well have had Qarth fleshed out to the degree that Braavos has been. But he hasn't, so it's better to keep a singular thematic tone to a particular area.

Freeider,

The Dothraki do not speak in broken English when in their own language; GRRM merely formalizes/antiquates their diction to, I think, try and get across when they're speaking Dothraki.

[broken one]

Basically, the Dothraki are really just sloppily done characitures based of an entire "eastern" or "other" nomadic, horse-based culture that makes Westerosi society look enlightened and peaceable by comparison. Does anyone else feel this way?

Agreed. I would also add they are based on stereothype of east. Mongols were much better organised, much more disciplined, open minded, pragmatic, cautious and military efficient than Europeans. Completely different from Dothraki actually, well exept for the peacefullness thing. When Mongols used smoke screen during battle of Leignitz 1241 western knights almost shitted their armours. Now who was enlightened? lol

[wolverine]

Just because Martin bases a culture on a real one it does not mean they have to be the same. There should be differences from the Mongols to the Dothraki, after all they are not even from the same world. Whether or not they work as a culture should not, imo, be determined by how closely the match real Asian groups.

[All-for-Joffrey]

Just because Martin bases a culture on a real one it does not mean they have to be the same. There should be differences from the Mongols to the Dothraki, after all they are not even from the same world. Whether or not they work as a culture should not, imo, be determined by how closely the match real Asian groups.

I wasn't basing it off of how closely they match the Mongols or ancient Turks, I was merely using them to compare and suggesst wasted potential and ways he could have made the Dothraki more complex or belivable, simply because GRRM has confirmed that that's the culture he based the Dothraki off of. However, that said, he clearly provides a fairly accurate depection of medieval, European feudal society so why can't he be ass accurate about Mongol culture while portraying the Dothraki, who are at least as equally torn from the Mongol tribes as the Westeros is from feudal Europe.

My point, however, was that the Dany chapters reek of orientalism because he provides an exotic, eastern culture that is barbaric, simple and unintelligent and probably is of the mindset that this is ok because they are, after all, eatern nomads. This is particularly striking when you contrast it with the careful, rich world building he uses to craft Westeros and the free cities. Westeros is clearly meant to be the equivalent of "the west" while the Dothraki Sea and beyond are meant to constitute the equivalent of "the east," or "the orient" in Martin's world, thus the world he has created is orientalist in nature because of the way he caricturizes the barbaric, single-minded, stupid Dothraki when they could have been fleshed out and made as complex as the rest of his world.

[raisin]

I'm also a bit skeevy of that aspect, but what works me up more is Qarth, which is a completely by-the-numbers Bizarre Oriental Entrepot full of Devious Debauched Potentates and Sinister Magicians into which our Young White Female Protagonist must tread carefully because Danger Lurks Round Every Corner. Every character she meets is Treacherous or a Catamite with the exception of the Inscrutable Qaithe

Seriously, Martin's usually quite good at subverting fantasy tropes but there isn't a bar of it in those chapters, which is quite disappointing.

This is pretty much exactly how I felt.

The best way I've been able to justify it is that Dany gets some pretty extreme and undiluted exposure to the worst aspects of war (the brutality and raping and such) and leadership (the assassins and deviousness and everyone trying to steal what she has) with no one all that concerned about rules and ethics and such. So basically, if Dany can get by here, she can get by anywhere, because it absolutely can't be worse. Westeros would have a hard time shocking her.

I wish he could have done this some other way, but I'm trying to cling to the hope that it serves some narrative purpose.

[shadow catlady]

Though their part is minor, I would argue the mountain clans that Tyrion befriends are similarly "primitive" and "savage" in Westeros, and that some but not all groups of wildlings north of the wall fit this description. So I sort of understood this as, peoples in the wild places of the world are wilder, vs. more "civilized" cultures of cities and farmlands (and I'd include the ironborn in the latter, though probably more "savage" on the continuum.

I didn't get bothered by cultural stereotypes, though I have to say I always gear myself up for reading anything that fits the medieval European fantasy prototype and in this case I was pleased by the variety of well, everything, compared to other books that fit that mold.

[Errant Bard]

I thinks it's normal everything in the east feels cartoonish, the east is merely a stepping stone for Dany, a way to give her power, it has to be less "realistic" (for lack of another world) than Westeros itself, so it doesn't feel too contrived for her to get so much so fast. Develop the east like Westeros, using more subtlety, and you end up with two unfortunate narrative effects: 1) Dany doesn't get to claim moral high ground for pounding the local into submission 2) Dany doesn't pound the locals into submission, rather she runs into some Littlefinger, Freys, Boltons, Lannisters equivalent and becomes somewhat of a puppet and has to initiate a subtle yet bloody purge if she really wants to get control... All in all, it means less power and less sympathy, and the more power you give her, the less sympathetic you can really make her.

It's also probably worth remembering ASOIAF was to be much shorter, so basic outlines were all that was needed until everything was relocated in Westeros, it's probably good to not develop a part you don't intend to use, from the author's point of view: it doesn't steal attention from the main setting, and it works as long as basic facts are given, so the readers can make mental cliffnotes about Dany's background (like, sold into slavery to savages -the most simply repulsive, the better, no nuance wanted, they are the bad guys, she's the suffering heroine- check, rise from her condition, get dragons, encounters some difficulty along the way: corrupt merchants, mages, whatever, -what's important is she struggles, with no real help, and they must be the bad guys, while she stays the heroine- check) That's her background, the real players are not in it, they are all developed in a zone situated between Braavos and the Iron islands.

I don't think there's really any cultural stereotype, since it feels just like bad guys first, with a pinch of exoticism, because they have to be different somehow. It still sucks having cartoonish villains for the sake of the heroine, but that's another story.

[raisin]

Errant Bard - I didn't even think of the relative moral high ground... that's a really good point. By giving these other cultures almost no morals whatsoever, it's really difficult/impossible for Dany to look worse. I'd be curious how that translates once she finally gets to Westeros.

[Marakesh]

The people of the Summer Isles are as nice as can be! I thought they were very fresh, but, yeah, the east isn't nearly so well done. Its not a stereotype problem to me, the whole thing seems unreal and its the worst part of the series IMHO. As Errant Bard said its like the continent is there for Dany to bounce off of for plot development. The Dothyraki aren't all bad, I kind of liked them. They are barbarians but are they any worse than the wildlings? When they dump gold on Viserys head are you with them or worrying about the poor prince? If only they lived in KL near Joffrey and Cersei ... I thought Drogo was more noble than the guy who replaced him as Khal, I wouldn't say they were all the same barbarian. Mostly, they are minor characters and so don't get filled out. It might be nice if GRRM wrote more scenes for her guard and attendants but this series is getting very long as it is. The horse barbarians have their pluses and minuses, but the more weaselly trader types of Quarth and then the 3 cities Dany takes do seem too unctuous to be believed. The fast-talking foreigner who can't seem to speak directly like a good European - I think that is a negative stereotype this series is guilty of, but fortunately, its not a major part of the plot.

[Daena the Defiant]

I thinks it's normal everything in the east feels cartoonish, the east is merely a stepping stone for Dany, a way to give her power, it has to be less "realistic" (for lack of another world) than Westeros itself, so it doesn't feel too contrived for her to get so much so fast.

For what it's worth, Westeros isn't entirely portrayed in a glowing light, either. Civil war, famine, atrocities committed by the overclass against the peasantry in furtherance for power, a huge, quasi-corrupt class of churchmen, political instability punctuated by cyclical insurrections, etc. Its history is replete with insane monarchs, crusades, and the occasional plague.

Westeros is almost a caricature of medieval European history, only strewn across a larger geographical canvas. IMHO, just as the lands of Essos are a distillation and exaggeration of all that the Medieval European observer would expect, with slavers and catamites and heathens and black sorcery, barbarism, etc.

One supposes that GRRM has lurking in his fecund mind that there is some China analogue off to the east, a huge, sophisticated empire with a highly advanced culture, but taken to the extreme with legions of warrior monks, an extravagantly arcane imperial court, with vizers and concubines etc...

[Artas]

I thinks it's normal everything in the east feels cartoonish

It feels more surreal than cartoonish to me. Cartoonish is Bugs Bunny.

just as the lands of Essos are a distillation and exaggeration of all that the Medieval European observer would expect, with slavers and catamites and heathens and black sorcery, barbarism, etc.

Exactly. I think Orientalism is more or less the point; the East is not supposed to be as fleshed out as Westeros, it's a western fantasy of all that is "eastern" and exotic. "Here Be Dragons" - literally, in this case.

[Kalbear]

It's pretty jarring, especially given how important the old world is compared to Westeros. We're told that the free cities are powerful, that the old world has a ton of power and armies and whatnot, that they knew magic and are the birthplace of the Dragons - but we're only told this. We don't see it. Instead, it feels like we're tourists of a caricature. At least that was my feeling.

I think that's one of the reasons the Dany chapters aren't as interesting to me; the setting is not nearly as remotely realized.

[Ran]

For my part, the cities and more highly developed cultures all feel suitably rich and powerful for me (the Dothraki being the exception). The magic, ancient power, whatever, that I don't care about as much, because as history shows us, power comes and goes, and the signs of the ruins and faded glories of these empires are definitely there in relation to Valyria, Slaver's Bay, and Qarth, anyways.

I'd like to learn more about all of them, and I think GRRM has enough of a sense of them that he could do more if that's what the story was about. The Dothraki, not so much. I think the expedience of the break-neck first novel put him in a corner there where the culture doesn't _really_ hold up under examination.