Datepalm Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Which is what makes him an awesome villain: the fact that the guy can commit such unpleasant acts and still attract the sympathy of the reader. I briefly considered leaving him out due to him being more of an anti-hero than a villain, but then I realised the same point could be arguably made about Milton's Satan (especially given that Milton's God comes across like a four year old who is annoyed someone else is playing with his toy soldiers).IIRC, Glotka is still pretty firmly on the right side, in as much as those exist in TFL - he's just an awful bastard about it. He's more of a really, really unpleasant (anti)hero than a villain or even an anti-villain. (Which I think of as being a sympathetic character who nevertheless stays firmly against the heroes/general 'right side' of the book. Probably time to bring in TVtropes though.) Theres...Galadan(?) in the Fionovar Tapestry (I think. Read this is a really long time ago.) who's a generally interesting and somewhat cool villain henchman, and for no reason whatsoever, in like the last chapter, has some kind of road to damascus moment and is informed (along with the readers) that really hes been a good guy deep inside all along. WTF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEvilKing Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Daurenja from KJ Parker's Engineer Trilogy. Charming, funny, intelligent, brave, incredibly talented in various skills, and a total sociopath.From ASOIAF there's too many to mention. Littlefinger and Tywin are obviously great, but I also enjoy greatly the zany antics of Viserys and Joff. Euron Crow's Eye is shaping up to be a pretty cool guy too.Captain Kennit from Liveship Traders is one of the best and most complex villains I've ever read, I think, though it's a while since I've read those books.I also really like Aeglyss from Brian Ruckley's Godless World trilogy. Dude steals every scene he's in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Agreed. The problem, I think, is that given that with some rare exceptions (the Auditors, the Queen of the Elves, and Lord Rust are the only ones I can think of off-hand), Pratchett villains are generally one-book-wonders: Pratchett's best characters (Death, Granny Weatherwax, Vetinari, etc) take multiple books to develop.They also tend to fall into either "aristocratic douchebag" or "motiveless psycho". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinDonner Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I also really like Aeglyss from Brian Ruckley's Godless World trilogy. Dude steals every scene he's in.Ugh, no! He's like a whiny emo Kellhus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Nan Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 No way is Glotka a straight up villain. We spend most of the book sympathising with his goals, if not his methods, and at the end he's downright nice. Well, that's not far from true for Littlefinger as well, right? Even if we sympathize and find him nice only to a meager degree, heroism ain't exactly rampant in Westeros.I'd add Bernard from Brave New World. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Kellhus (Bakker) is too unclassifiable, [...]But Bakker does have really good villains in the normal sense. And I’m not even thinking of the wonderful Inchoroi, which I find extremely well-thought out.I’m thinking of both Ikurei Conphas and Xerius III. Both serve as straight-up antagonists in the story. (So they aren’t anti-heroes.) For example when Xerius slaughters a square full of his own population just to make a point with Maitha? I think that’s a marvellous chapter, from the moment he takes the reins to his chariot from a lucky servant.--I do believe that it’s GRRM’s plan to have Tyrion be the best villain of them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I’m thinking of both Ikurei Conphas and Xerius III. Both serve as straight-up antagonists in the story. (So they aren’t anti-heroes.) For example when Xerius slaughters a square full of his own population just to make a point with Maitha? I think that’s a marvellous chapter, from the moment he takes the reins to his chariot from a lucky servant.Good point. I suppose it could be argued that Xerius is possibly derivative of Roman Emperor Tiberius, but that would be nitpicking. I do believe that it’s GRRM’s plan to have Tyrion be the best villain of them all.Here's hoping he can pull it off (personally I'd love to see Jon Snow go evil, but that is probably unlikely). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Well, that's not far from true for Littlefinger as well, right? Even if we sympathize and find him nice only to a meager degree, heroism ain't exactly rampant in Westeros.Yeah, but we're also absoloutely not on his side in whatever he's trying to get done. (Whatever the hell that is, that is.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Here's hoping he can pull it off (personally I'd love to see Jon Snow go evil, but that is probably unlikely).I share your sympathies with that idea, but not only is it unlikely, I think it would be poorly executed. After Book 1, I actually thought he would become the antagonist in the North, joining the wildlings and leading them in an attack on the Wall and fighting his own kin. But his arc turned out to be the exact opposite: he confirms and re-confirms his role as the Good Guy. Tyrion, on the other hand, has actually tried to do the right thing when he was Hand, but everything turned sour. It‘s the opposite arc than Jon’s: tempted by Good, Tyrion becomes Bad. I want to see him riding a stolen dragon, cackllng madly in all his twisted, ugly glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmail Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Baron Vladimir Harkonnen. His plan was well thought out, well executed, and the results would have entirely been in his favor if it had not been for Paul Atriedes. The coming of the ultimate human being tends to put a crimp in the plans of even the best villain. But truly good bad guys are, come to think of it, much harder to find in books than they are in movies. I always had a soft spot for Lord Soth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrownedCrow Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 John Wulgaru/More Dread from Tad William's Otherland. The best depiction of a sociopath in fiction that I'm aware of. I almost liked him despite his murderous sadism. Second place goes to Achilles Desjardins, another murderous sadist, from Peter Watts' Behemoth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gladius Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Inchoroi. Why?Because they aren't villains from a neutral point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yagathai Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Dumbledore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tears of Lys Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I quite like Saruman too as "most interesting" villain. His fall from grace was slow, gradual, and inexorable. And to fall from such a lofty height to land with such a resounding SPLAT was awesome. Gollum made a great villain too. I always hoped he could be redeemed at the end, but we know how THAT turned out. The Inchoroi are fantastic villains, IMO. They're so delightfully despicable. A little-one note, perhaps, but always good for a squeal of distate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMRobM Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 The Lord Ruler from Mistborn I - and his spiked co-workers from all of the books. Pretty scary and, in light of ending of first book, very interesting in terms of motivation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheep the Evicted Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Oh man, I'm reminded of the Use of Weapons. Now that was a great villain.The best, IMO. I wouldn't count the chairmaker in Use of Weapons either, since it retroactively turns out the whole book was his redemption arc. Why can't people just stay bad?I don't think it is. He does what he always did, only now he is doing it for the good guys, he is still the ultimate warrior. Which in real terms means he is as violent and ruthless as you can humanely get. Though its been a while since I read the books. No way is Glotka a straight up villain. We spend most of the book sympathising with his goals, if not his methods, and at the end he's downright nice. He tortures innocent people, that he knows are innocent, to preserve his superior's tyranny. How much more evil do you need to be ?IIRC, Glotka is still pretty firmly on the right side, in as much as those exist in TFL - he's just an awful bastard about it. He's more of a really, really unpleasant (anti)hero than a villain or even an anti-villain. (Which I think of as being a sympathetic character who nevertheless stays firmly against the heroes/general 'right side' of the book. Probably time to bring in TVtropes though.) What right side? We KNOW who Glokta works for and if you think that guy is the "right" side then your moral compass is so screwed up (from mine) that i'm not sure how we'll even be able to discuss it. Everything Glokta does isn't to fight the powah or help people, its all so he doesn't end up losing. He's funny and he's been through hell yes, but he's still evil. Takeshi Kovacs is one for exactly the same reason, only he's a bit more a force of nature. From this thread it seems all the great villians can fit into two groups. People who are fighting for good causes, or against unfair systems, in extreme ways. Littlefinger, Kovacs and Idaan Machi from Betrayal in Winter are all examples of this. Really they are all just sociopaths looking for an excuse. The other type are the aliens; characters so different from ordinary humans that you can sort of see why they do such evil things. Kellhs, The Weaver (though more an antihero) and the Inchoroi are an example of this. And again sociopaths ARE different so ultimately the first kind are a lighter example of the second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I share your sympathies with that idea, but not only is it unlikely, I think it would be poorly executed. After Book 1, I actually thought he would become the antagonist in the North, joining the wildlings and leading them in an attack on the Wall and fighting his own kin. But his arc turned out to be the exact opposite: he confirms and re-confirms his role as the Good Guy. Tyrion, on the other hand, has actually tried to do the right thing when he was Hand, but everything turned sour. Its the opposite arc than Jons: tempted by Good, Tyrion becomes Bad. I want to see him riding a stolen dragon, cackllng madly in all his twisted, ugly glory.Dany could be another candidate for that. Sure, she's tried to become a good queen and means well right now, but those dragons will give her a lot of power and she will have to do some nasty things in order to regain her throne (not everyone will welcome her with open arms, after all), and that power and getting more and more used to doing nasty things might corrupt her to the point that she would become no better ruler than some other mad Targs. ;) And in the end Jaime - as counter-arc re. character development - could add 'Queenkiller' to his titles, wouldn't that be sweet? :DOK, that's not Fantasy, but some good villains are Lady de Winter and her son Mordaunt in The Three Musketeers and its sequel. Or Brian de Bois Guilbert from Ivanhoe, and some others from that sort of books. One of my absolute favourites is Cethegus from A Struggle for Rome*. They have an 'epic badness' that's not often found in more recent Fantasy. Characters like Littlefinger and Laseen are interesting and surely not good guys/girls, but they are still too .... well, human to inspire the awe of a well-written 'evil overlord'-villain like Morgoth. IMHO, of course. * http://lostfort.blogspot.com/2010/03/felix-dahn-struggle-for-rome.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 What right side? We KNOW who Glokta works for and if you think that guy is the "right" side then your moral compass is so screwed up (from mine) that i'm not sure how we'll even be able to discuss it. Everything Glokta does isn't to fight the powah or help people, its all so he doesn't end up losing. He's funny and he's been through hell yes, but he's still evil. Hm, its posiible i'm completely misremembering the balance of power in the series. I wasn't even paying all that much attention as I was reading, to be honest (its not what really interested me in the series) so maybe thats even likely. All I remember is that ultimately theres a kind of stasis reached where Glotka is the power behind the throne and this is more or less ok. Just not, well, nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amun Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Hm, its posiible i'm completely misremembering the balance of power in the series. I wasn't even paying all that much attention as I was reading, to be honest (its not what really interested me in the series) so maybe thats even likely. All I remember is that ultimately theres a kind of stasis reached where Glotka is the power behind the throne and this is more or less ok. Just not, well, nice.By the end of the series Glokta works for Bayaz, and I think most people would consider Bayaz evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuroishi Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Seconding The Mule and Steerpike. The most fascinating scene of that last one to me was when he dances among, IIRC, the twins' bones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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