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The Wise Man's Fear III [Spoilers and Speculation within]


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#201 Garlan the Gallant

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 02:03 PM

Someone mentioned how dennas song might be for the maer. Here is my thought on that: what if the maer believes lanre to be a hero. What if he believes the opposite of kvothe: chandrian are good amyr are evil. It would explain why dennas song is written the way it is. What if the maer and kvothe both ultimately end up at the stone doors but the maer believes oPening them will do good but kvothe realizes that they will release evil. It would explain the cthathe's "witty" remark.

Thoughts?

#202 Gaston de Foix

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 02:49 PM

In the appendix the months are called Thaw, Equis, Caitelyn, Solace, Lannis, Reaping, Fallow and Dearth. The eleven days are called Luten, Shuden, Theden, Feochen, Orden, Hepten, Chaen, Felling, Reaving, Cendling and Mourning.


that's really interesting. is there anything else in theAppendix apart from this? Like maybe what lies behind the door Valaritas? :0)

An appendix would be kind of out place in this kind of book though. its not an epic multiple POV novel. it's the story of op the.

#203 jurble

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 07:46 PM

When Elodin tries to get his class to guess where he'll throw the stone, the good-at-math people start drawing parabolas and doing calculations, presumably involving velocity, angles, force. Elodin even gives force and direction as part of their clues. This reads like basic calculus to me, the kind of stuff developed alongside Newtonian Mechanics. It might just be a Cartesian plane (slightly anachronistic), but I don't think so. Anyway, Kvothe can't follow along. So he definitely fails at calc. But he has to learn all sorts of equations for Sympathy, any decent equation's going to involve variables, so he has to be somewhat proficient at algebra. And he has at least some knowledge of geometry. In between those and calculus... he gets lost somewhere in trig?


Well, at anyrate, I can confidently say, barring Kvotheworld having unrealistically advanced mathematics,:
I am better than Kvothe the Arcane at math.



How about this:

Manet isn't Aleph, he's actually Iax. At some random point in the past, someone accidentally opened the Stone Door. Iax, having nothing better to do, decides to take up residence in the Fishery, making shit.

Edited by Jurble, 28 March 2011 - 07:48 PM.


#204 ShanRawr

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 08:49 PM

Well, at anyrate, I can confidently say, barring Kvotheworld having unrealistically advanced mathematics,:
I am better than Kvothe the Arcane at math.


Let's start a club!

And just curious if anyone knows:
Is there anything definitive that states Kvothe is the one betrayed or can he be the betrayer?

#205 Thaykora

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 09:02 PM

Why does Chronicler (after long-seconds of thought) refuse to answer Kvothe's question of whether he created the cipher, or not?

#206 Phibbus

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 09:19 PM

First post, here. Hello all.

I noticed the old man's name being Sceop as well, but I thought it might have just been Rothfuss on an Old English tangent, what with Caesura (a latin word, but caesuras are all over Beowulf if I recall) too.

While not much of a speculation as to plot intricacies, there is a little something I noticed while reading WMF regarding the split-line, alliterative verse. Beowulf is a neat example, but I think Rothfuss might have had something a little different in mind. When Fela discovers the Eld Vintic copy of volume 9 of the Facci-Moen ve Scrivani, Sim explains that he has learned to read some Eld Vintic under Puppet's tutelage. He says (pg. 225 in the hardcover):

"Your loss, [...] Eld Vintic poetry is thunderous. It pounds at you."

[...]

"It's like this:

Sought we the Scrivani | word-work of Surthur
Long-lost in ledger | all hope forgotten.
Yet fast-found for friendship | fair the book-bringer

[etc...]


I've stuck in pipes to indicate the caesuras since they aren't clearly represented in this example in the text. While he doesn't follow the strict alliterative rules, Rothfuss is giving a very fair approximation of the meter of Old English verse. The phrasing, however, is closer to Old Norse Eddaic poetry, which shares an identical meter but is much more succinct and "punchy."

The thing that caught my eye was Sim's, "thunderous" and "It pounds at you," which immediately called to mind another example released recently. Tolkien's Sigurd and Gudrun was published in May, 2009, being two lengthy, modern English reworkings of the those Old Norse legends in their original Eddaic meter. As an Introduction, Tolkien's son prefaces the poems with material drawn from his father's lecture notes, which describes the nature of such verse and its almost visceral effect on the reader, as contrasted with Old English verse:

There remains too the impact of first hearing these things after the preliminary struggle with Old Norse is over and one first reads an Eddaic poem getting enough of the sense to go on with. Few who have been through this process can have missed the sudden recognition that they had unawares met something of tremendous force, something that in parts (for it has various parts) is still endowed with an almost demonic energy, in spite of the ruin of its form. The feeling of this impact is one of the greatest gifts that the reading of the Elder Edda gives. If not felt early in the process, it is unlikely to be captured by years of scholarly thraldom; once felt it can never be buried by mountains or molehills of research, and sustains long and weary labour.

This is unlike Old English, whose surviving fragments (Beowulf especially) — such at any rate has been my experience — only reveal their mastery and excellence slowly and long after the first labour with the tongue and the first acquaintance with the verse is over. There is truth in this generalization. It must not be pressed. Detailed study will enhance one's feeling for the Elder Edda, of course. Old English verse has an attraction in places that is immediate. But Old English verse does not attempt to hit you in the eye. To hit you in the eye was the deliberate intention of the Norse poet.

[bolds mine, pp. 17-18]


While I'm no expert on the Eddas, I've read quite a bit, and I've never seen the overall effect described in terms quite so physical, elsewhere. Thus, when I saw Sim using similarly descriptive terms, it made me think Rothfuss might have been captivated enough with some recent reading to insert a little tribute? Sorry to go on at such length on such a minor aspect (and sorry if anyone else has noted this previously.)

#207 thistlepong

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 09:27 PM

Is there anything definitive that states Kvothe is the one betrayed or can he be the betrayer?


"I trouped, traveled, loved, lost, trusted, and was betrayed."

In the appendix the months are called Thaw, Equis, Caitelyn, Solace, Lannis, Reaping, Fallow and Dearth. The eleven days are called Luten, Shuden, Theden, Feochen, Orden, Hepten, Chaen, Felling, Reaving, Cendling and Mourning.


Thanks again!
It occurs to me that it Chaen shouldn't be accurate for a couple reasons:
  • Chaen is Temic, according to Ben in NotWc12; Laurian and Arliden don't know what it means.
  • In Trapis's story, Tehlu catches up to Encanis on the seventh day, That's why seven is a lucky number and why we celebrate on Caenin."


The story works with Ctaeth as a malicious truth telling beast.


I know. It doesn't say kill, though. Your refutation lacked detail /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

Why does Chronicler (after long-seconds of thought) refuse to answer Kvothe's question of whether he created the cipher, or not?


He disregards it, though it is referred to as his repeatedly along with, "There are around fifty different sounds we use to speak. I've given each of them a symol consisting of one or two pen strokes.

Willem mentions cipher once. Simmon mentions cipher once. Kvothe mentions cipher twice. Chronicler's is referred to in the frame story three times. So why is it significant?

The Loeclos box is made from the wood of the rhinna tree (home to the Cthaeh):
It was a sweet smell. It was like smoke and spice and leather and lemon.
What's more, it seemed to be a spicewood. It smelled faintly of... ...something almost like lemon

Speaking of trees, any idea why Denna continually repeats "Master Elm" instead of "Master Ash?" Is it just so Kvothe can correct her and taste bitter ashes?

Edited by thistlepong, 28 March 2011 - 11:10 PM.


#208 unJon

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 09:37 PM

Welcom, Phibbus. I like your catch. PR has done tributes to others in the books, and yours makes some sense to me as well.

#209 ShanRawr

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 09:47 PM

Thanks, thistlepong!

And that's a great explanation, Phibbus.

#210 dbcooper

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 11:41 PM

I've been thinking about Kvothe's conversation with the Cthaeh.. apologies if this idea has already been explored.

"The Maer, however, is quite the extraordinary man. He's already come close to them [the Amyr], though he doesn't realize it. Stick by the Maer and he will lead you to their door." The Cthaeh gave a thin, dry chuckle. "Blood, bracken, and bone, I wish you creatures had the wit to appreciate me. Whatever else you might forget, remember what I just said. Eventually you'll get the joke. I guarantee. You'll laugh when the time comes."


This portion of the conversation seems the most meaningful to me. Name dropping Stormwal, telling Kvothe about how Mr. Ash beats Denna.. these pieces of information are just giving Kvothe the spurs to push him down certain paths. The above information is seemingly only going to be useful after the fact, granted when you're dealing with a malevolent being that knows everything things can be tricky.

Without getting into wild speculation, I think the Loeclos box is going to play some part in leading Kvothe to the Amyr. It fits the criteria of the Maer coming close to it and not knowing what it really is, as to the reference to the Amyr's door.. the Loeclos box could contain a key to a door which leads to wherever the Amyr and hiding or perhaps contains the door itself?

The only thing that doesn't seem to fit is the Cthaeh's reference to it being a joke.. it's would be unexpected but I'm not sure how funny that is going to be. Especially considering if the Cthaeh says it's funny it's probably something terribly painful or extremely ironic. Perhaps it would be a "omfg I just traveled all across the world and killed a ton of people and monsters to find a way to the Amyr and here it was I had it in my hand before rofl" moment.

Any thoughts?

#211 Gaston de Foix

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 12:22 AM

"I trouped, traveled, loved, lost, trusted, and was betrayed."


Speaking of trees, any idea why Denna continually repeats "Master Elm" instead of "Master Ash?" Is it just so Kvothe can correct her and taste bitter ashes?



The thing about the box being made from the Rhinna tree surprised me as well. Does that mean the box was made after contact with the Ctaeth?

Elm/Ash

It's so that PR can somewhat obviously emphasise the fact that Denna has lost a certain amount of her memory for non-OCD readers. Authors have to put more than one hint in where there is such an obvious incongruity and readers go wtf?

#212 CryHavoc

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 01:16 AM

The thing about the box being made from the Rhinna tree surprised me as well. Does that mean the box was made after contact with the Ctaeth?

Elm/Ash

It's so that PR can somewhat obviously emphasise the fact that Denna has lost a certain amount of her memory for non-OCD readers. Authors have to put more than one hint in where there is such an obvious incongruity and readers go wtf?


Well, if the box is related to Iax, who we know went to see the Cthaeth before he stole the moon...

#213 Adept Havelock

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 03:36 AM

"The Maer, however, is quite the extraordinary man. He's already come close to them [the Amyr], though he doesn't realize it. Stick by the Maer and he will lead you to their door." The Cthaeh gave a thin, dry chuckle. "Blood, bracken, and bone, I wish you creatures had the wit to appreciate me. Whatever else you might forget, remember what I just said. Eventually you'll get the joke. I guarantee. You'll laugh when the time comes."


Maybe the Cthaeh's sense of humour is a bit vulgar? The Maer's already CUM close to them, his wife is an agent of the Amyr. It's a little crackpot, but might explain her massive hatred of Kvothe's people, disproportionate to what happened to her sister. Perhaps they know that only someone from that race can open the stone doors and cause the war in the present of the story, and implanted in all there agents how 'evil' they are.

#214 generic

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 04:19 AM

Well, if the box is related to Iax, who we know went to see the Cthaeth before he stole the moon...


Did he? I don't remember. I suspected the Shapers made the Cthaeth for the war. Having a repository of all future knowledge makes winning a war much easier. That would have also explained why everything ended up in ruins.

#215 Gaston de Foix

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 04:23 AM

I know. It doesn't say kill, though. Your refutation lacked detail /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />



Do you accept that when Haliax instructed Cinder to send Kvothe to the "soft painless blanket of his sleep", he wasn't talking about a magical power to put little kids to sleep but essentially telling Cinder to kill Kvothe?

#216 Gaston de Foix

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 04:26 AM

Did he? I don't remember. I suspected the Shapers made the Cthaeth for the war. Having a repository of all future knowledge makes winning a war much easier. That would have also explained why everything ended up in ruins.



Well the Ctaeth bites people. Presumably those it doesn't bite are those who are doing what it wants anyway. So that would mean the maker of the box was someone who embarked on a mission the Ctaeth approved of. Iax seems like a good fit, maybe Iax was married to the original Lady Lackless? "in a box, no lids or locks, Lackless keeps her husband's rocks".

#217 flare

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 07:12 AM

Well, at anyrate, I can confidently say, barring Kvotheworld having unrealistically advanced mathematics,:
I am better than Kvothe the Arcane at math.


I don't think that is a fair assumption.
We get handed everything on a silver platter because we already have a vast knowledge.
I probably know some things that Newton, Euler or Gauß did not but I would not dream of comparing myself to them. They discovered stuff in years of studies. I just use their stuff /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


I think Manet is only dreaming the whole story /wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

#218 thistlepong

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 07:37 AM

Phibbus, that's beautiful. Thank you.

Do you accept that when Haliax instructed Cinder to send Kvothe to the "soft painless blanket of his sleep", he wasn't talking about a magical power to put little kids to sleep but essentially telling Cinder to kill Kvothe?


It's possible. I think I commented on it earlier though. Here's a recap of the salient points:
  • The chapter afterward the "four doors" feature prominently.
  • Haliax dwells on all four in Skarpi's story.
  • The bit of attention the Cthaeh gives Haliax includes, "not a second's sleep."
The difference between them is important to Haliax.
While I have no direct experience, killing a twelve year old probably doesn't take long; and the Seven had the time. Essentially, it makes no sense that Kvothe's still alive. Unless that's a catastrophically wrong decision?


Does that mean the box was made after contact with the Ctaeth?


The timeline we can propose from the information presented:
  • Haliax has been alive and hasn't slept for 5000 years.
  • The estimated age of the box is 3000 years.

So, yes. Is there more than one tree? Is that box a catastrophically wrong decision? Is the Cthaeh the Tinker?
Of course, the age of the box could be much greater. But if we're taking the Cthaeh at face value, then Haliax's age must be hard evidence.

Did he? I don't remember.


He did. Bast says, Iax spoke to the Cthaeh before he stole the moon. I'm pretty sure the shapers weren't mobilizing for war. What we've been told suggests they resided in or were associated with the Fae and war came to them.

The only thing that doesn't seem to fit is the Cthaeh's reference to it being a joke... Any thoughts?


I think the Maer's reasons for leading Kvothe to the door, or the circumstances under which he does so, will be pretty upsetting for Kvothe. If and only if he commissioned Denna's song he's probably sympathetic to the Seven's version.

...What if he believes the opposite of kvothe: chandrian are good amyr are evil... Thoughts?


I don't think the Chandrian are good.. The world, including Bast, still believes them to be a force for destruction. Kvothe's king killing incident seems to be the only bad story, but it's beginning to lend a darker cast to some of the older tales.

For your BS consideration:
Chael
Chaendrian (from the account in the archives
Chaen Temic
Cthaeh ~ C*hae*

Edited by thistlepong, 29 March 2011 - 07:53 AM.


#219 Gaston de Foix

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 08:02 AM

Phibbus, that's beautiful. Thank you.



It's possible. I think I commented on it earlier though. Here's a recap of the salient points:

  • The chapter afterward the "four doors" feature prominently.
  • Haliax dwells on all four in Skarpi's story.
  • The bit of attention the Cthaeh gives Haliax includes, "not a second's sleep."
The difference between them is important to Haliax.
While I have no direct experience, killing a twelve year old probably doesn't take long; and the Seven had the time. Essentially, it makes no sense that Kvothe's still alive. Unless that's a catastrophically wrong decision?




The timeline we can propose from the information presented:
  • Haliax has been alive and hasn't slept for 5000 years.
  • The estimated age of the box is 3000 years.

So, yes. Is there more than one tree? Is that box a catastrophically wrong decision? Is the Cthaeh the Tinker?
Of course, the age of the box could be much greater. But if we're taking the Cthaeh at face value, then Haliax's age must be hard evidence.



He did. Bast says, Iax spoke to the Cthaeh before he stole the moon. I'm pretty sure the shapers weren't mobilizing for war. What we've been told suggests they resided in or were associated with the Fae and war came to them.



I think the Maer's reasons for leading Kvothe to the door, or the circumstances under which he does so, will be pretty upsetting for Kvothe. If and only if he commissioned Denna's song he's probably sympathetic to the Seven's version.



I don't think the Chandrian are good.. The world, including Bast, still believes them to be a force for destruction. Kvothe's king killing incident seems to be the only bad story, but it's beginning to lend a darker cast to some of the older tales.

For your BS consideration:
Chael
Chaendrian (from the account in the archives
Chaen Temic
Cthaeh ~ C*hae*


I think the Amyr are ruthless and the Chandrian are evil (if evil means wanting to destroy the world). I'm not sure if Bast knows the Chandrian's purpose though, it is thought the purpose is actually a fairly high level secret.


Thistle I meant to suggest this to you, why don't we make a short glossary of unknown words (or phrases), suspected meaning, suspected language or confirmed language, page reference? A lot of it i.e. Kote=disaster, Siaru we can work out, but I feel like there may be a chance we can work out other meanings if we do is in a systematic way. Maybe you already have a list like this somewhere, or Teaspoon or SM or someone does. If so, do post it up so we can add amend, guess etc.

Edited by grinachu, 29 March 2011 - 08:02 AM.


#220 Saidin

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 09:35 AM

Hey all, I'm new and just finished going through all 3 threads.

I have a theory on the master archivist working for the Amyr.

1. How could all the master archivists have not noticed the contradictions in all the books in the archive? That there isn't a clear answer for when the Amyr were founded? Because they've been the one pruning that knowledge away.

2. The inscription on the copper doors were something like along the lines of knowledge shaping a man, but the person that translated said that it was an old dialect. So what if it really says knowledge shapes mankind or something of the like. The Amyr could see that the Chandrian are something to be feared so rather than having the world be constantly afraid of when they would strike, they eliminated all knowledge of themselves who's sole purpose is to oppose the Chandrian and the knowledge of the Chandrian in order to keep the peace in the world.

3. Who's in a better position to take away books which contain information on the Amyr or the Chandrian then the Master Archivist who has a group of gillers out scouring the world for books. Then he is the one to choose which books go into the Archives.

4. How come no other students have made the same conclusion as Kvothe seeing that there is no consistent information on the Amyr? Master Lorren came to find him when he had requested the information and fed him the 'Atur story' then dismissed it as a childish fancy.

So my theory is that every Master Archivist for some time has been either part of, or working for the Amyr and has placed all that knowledge behind the doors in the archive.