AGOT Mafia Game n= May 2011.

[House Sunglass]

Edit (says Russian head of Targ). It's "edit" in English.

I hope you won't object if I would occasionally help you and Ernst to fight with language barrier.

I am glad to get any help from you or somebody else.

[House Baratheon]

Mod: Can I use words "lurk", "lurking", "lurked" at all?

[House Sunglass]

Seriously, Edward? Highlighting wishy-washy word choice from Kat? Kat is always wishy-washy in her language. I'm concerned that she may be following too much, though, as you pointed out yesterday; I'm reading back to see if I find any counter-examples.

I suspected both of you.%) Why do you do it right now?

I understand that this post is not too defensive, but:

Both of you suspected me.

She apologized, and you said that you were glad to see me thinking.

Now you protect her.

It can't be a coincidence.%)

[House Dondarrion]

I will do a bit of rereading and give you my opinion on Ernst & Marple shortly. I need to think on it. Posts are kind of blending together and I think have a few questions to address.

Did you ever post your opinion on Ernst and Marple? I might have missed it while catching up but I don't remember seeing it.

You ... are having trouble catching up so you want us to dump enormous posts full of information all over the thread?

That's just so ... you. :P

I don't think I can do 'tiers' of evil-seeming in any meaningful way right now, because my reads on people are sparse enough that I still prefer to prod someone on whom I have no information, rather than accusing someone for whom I have some minor, ill-defined suspicion. I'll try to do 'tiers' of interest-in-investigating though.

Puff: Needs to talk more, AND seems incredibly overdefensive from what we've seen (286 referencing 279).

--

Ernst Blofeld: I need to reread. I'm concerned with how many posts he has when I considered him in my 'quiet liability' category; I need to check to see if that was spurred by the train on him or if he was just posting many times but with little content. Dodging trains deserves some scrutiny, and unlike the Kat or Simba trains I don't particularly remember why this one didn't happen.

--

Edward: Meta reasons. Scarily quiet. Creepy avatar.

Garfield: Needs to talk more, but seems inconsistent with a newbie killer. Still needs to talk more.

Simba: Doesn't match my memory of WJ's play very well (which, I later realized, is probably because the vast majority of games I played with WJ he was alt-hiding at this point.) As I mentioned before, I think Malcolm's early insights have a surprising accuracy (which does not mean over 50%) despite his inabilty to explain them properly, and Malcolm's early insight was against Simba. I can't put my finger on anything he's doing that's specifically suspicious, though.

--- (not currently interested in lynching/pressing below this line)

Humpty Dumpty: Seems meta-consistent with what little I know about her. Behavior doesn't seem particularly evil. Null read on a more vocal person means not currently interested.

Krakatoa: Meta-consistent, not particularly evil behavior. My gut is twitching though, she may be rising a tier.

Miss Marple: Consistent and no read. I need to reread and form an opinion. Barbed cookies are a concern.

The Mummy: As Marple.

--

Showgirl Barbie: Just because you're always wrong amd a liabilty to your team doesn't mean you're evil. Usually the opposite.

Sooty: It's Halo. He can kill himself without my help. If he doesn't do something suicidally bizarre, then I'll start thinking he's evil then, but I'll give him the chance first. Likely to move wherever after I hear Halo's overall thoughts and compare to Sotty's strangeness.

This post is a complete waste. There is nothing in this other than "meta" reasoning and a lot of qualifiers (ie: not particularly evil behaviour). From this, I can't tell if you suspect anyone or if you suspect everyone.

Also, please explain to me why you're not interested in lynching Mummy/Marple? You said you have no read and need a reread to form an opinion yet they're in your no lynch tier. That doesn't make sense to me.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I also sort of felt like your first post might not be totally genuine. Like you were parodying emotions --indecisiveness, frustration, etc.-- that we've all come to expect from innocent Kat.

I agree with you.

My suspicion of Starlin was pretty much the same as you - mostly meta on what I expected from him. My vote was meant as pressure. When I realized just how many people were also pressuring him, I backed off because I didn't really want to lynch him. My rule of thumb with Malc is that by day 3 if I don't get an inno read on him, I put him at the top of my suspect list. I was never really interested in lynching him on Day 1, even though he was ringing some alarms. I did mention him again, but said I was willing to let him ride.

Any reason why you didn't mention any of this until now? You didn't really want to lynch him yet you were willing to let him ride. I assume that means you were willing to lynch him? Was this because we needed a lynch or because you had misgivings about him?

VOTE SIMBA

Any reason you're staying away from him now? I get you voted him because you thought he tied people together (though I have absolutely no idea how that makes him evil) then moved your vote when you found out that you were misreading it wrong. However, you also said there are other things you don't like about him (one of which I remember was when you called him out for bitching at HD). Why have you completely gone off of him? Your suspicion lasted a whole of two minutes then you moved on to Garfield, a person who already had 3 people posting that they were suspicious of her. Seems pretty convenient that your vote is moving from Simba (who was getting a lot of attention) to Garfield (who is now getting a lot of attention).

This bothers me a great deal.

And so do I.

Then why, dammit, we have all alts with the given nicknames from very begining. Not using meta is just not making any sense. Since we all using it, anyways. It's like telling people not to think about white monkey. And since we all thinking about it I say that it would be hypocrite move not to speak of it out loud.

Alts were given so that it'll be easy to search people's posts instead of having to wade through all their other posts in the forum. It was not given out so we could meta it.

Hi, guys.

I' m falling behind you guys. You write too fast for me.%)

Could somebody make a short review of the players thoughts?%)

Right now I am in the university, and I won't be here at the end of the day, because I will be sleeping at that time.

I really want to help as much as I can.)

I suspect Krakatoa and Wonder Woman for some reasons. WW more.

I will write why i think so when I will be at home.

Wonder Woman.

This seems out of left field. Highlighting this because I want to hear more.

I think you are reaching and that last statement has me the most worried

I have a busy day today, but I will make a case on you

The basics are 1) you admit it is not much of a case, yet you are still voting her; and 2) suspecting anyone who suspects Simba? WTF? Simba is ALWAYS evil whether or not he is an FM

I'm fine with voting for Kat but I don't get this. Even if there isn't a big case, I see no reason why you don't vote who you think is guilty. And really, your reasoning for voting Kat is because you think Simba is always evil?

Edward:

In #177 you suspect Kat for doing vote analysis before the lynch is over. Could you explain why you think this is evil (as opposed to unusual) behavior?

In #344 after the WJ/Mina scuffle you proclaim Simba "still" innocent. Unless I'm missing something again, you still haven't told us why you believe this. WJ himself has just said that his rudeness is a null tell, not a sign of innocence (in #515 under the sixth quote).

What's the difference between unusual and evil? We're talking about Kat, she's not really unusual. As for the reasoning, I didn't like that she was setting up those two positions. A vote analysis takes place after the vote for a reason, the spots aren't generally the important but how the lynch takes form. To call out the last two spots before a lynch even happened with no analysis of the train seemed wrong to me. I don't know why an innocent would limit the analysis like that.

[House Yronwood]

Mod: Can I use words "lurk", "lurking", "lurked" at all?

No

You can ONLY use information from INSIDE this thread

[House Dondarrion]

Seriously, Edward? Highlighting wishy-washy word choice from Kat? Kat is always wishy-washy in her language. I'm concerned that she may be following too much, though, as you pointed out yesterday; I'm reading back to see if I find any counter-examples.

No she isn't. She can be wishy-washy on people's alignment but I don't remember her wording being like that at all. It's been awhile since I've played with Kat but when I can find examples like that in pretty much every post, my alarm bells go off. Will vote now that I'm caught up.

Krakatoa

Moving on to the Simba/Mummy spat. I'm of two minds on this. First, I agree with Simba that Mummy has been unusually indecisive. He's right in saying that she normally takes a leadership role when innocent. You can normally tell within the first day if she's innocent or not. My issue lies with the fact that I know how it feels to play catch up and not be directly involved. I can be like this too (hell, have been in this game). It's much easier to be active and insightful when you're in the thick of the action then when you're constantly playing catch up. So to me, it's kind of a null tell.

I will say, that I liked Simba's point about Mummy misrepresenting the case on Ernst. For the time being, I'd like to hear more on who Mummy suspects (besides Simba) and why.

[House Targaryen]

Mod: Can I use words "lurk", "lurking", "lurked" at all?

Theoretically, yes, it isn't forbidden. You may use constructions such as "I've seen somebody lurking" - for example, when town is discussing if there are enough voters for a lynch. But any references to concrete player lurking, direct or indirect, are unappropriate.

And there is old good bridge principle: "when in doubt, pass".

[House Baratheon]

Meh?! That's ridiculous.

Well, bye then! I don't feel that i can make this day without this word. I hope I could find anything better than "lynch all ***" tomorrow.

[Magic Mirror]

I'm back. I've been trying to write a big post in response to several people now...but first, a rant:

...I, um, don't suppose me screaming up and down, "SIMBA IS EVIL. BECAUSE I SAY HE IS. JUST TRUST ME ON THIS ONE. IGNORE HIS REASONABLE DEFENCE POSTS, BECAUSE HE CAN WRITE THEM AS EVIL ALSO" would work, would it.

This is so annoying. There's no way I can actually prove it to this crowd without spending hours and hours on a case, most of which would be just posting random quotes that sound off and going, "Here, look, this is completely different from how innocent!WJ plays." And even if I write one, he's going to bury every point I make against him in thousands and thousands of words to which it'll take me too much energy to respond, and everyone will go, "Obviously, the better debater is ALWAYS innocent!" But can people just trust my crazy intuitions, even though they've never actually been right before?

I'll at least attempt to give examples of my issues with him, because I'll have loads of time until the deadline. But seriously, this game will turn me into Faraday. Ignore all logical cases! Smart players get FM role PMs, too! Just vote for whoever looks scummy on instinct, and repeat over and over again, "Lynch him! Lynch him! Lynch him!" :P

My suspect pool is still Simba, Edward, Dragon, Sooty, and to a lesser extent Garfield. Innocent Mexal is normally a lot more in your face and controversial. This game, he's been very reasonable and safe and low-profile. Even on D1, he didn't try to stir to pot or provoke reactions. And I REALLY don't buy his kneejerk clearing of Simba--maybe it's because I got the exact opposite impression as he did. Either he's symping Simba (seriously, why does Simba seem to have so many symps?), or he's trying to avoid a confrontation with him. Edward is normally much more sceptical and aggressive. Yet I feel he's only focused on a few players this game.

I was actually a bit uneasy about Mummy's earlier posts (although I think Simba is making too big a deal of how "convenient" the votes are), and will agree that she hasn't attained her usual level of blinding innocence. But I'd still like to give her some leeway now that she has more time. (Edit: I should add that her more recent posts look innocent, but not as innocent as she usually does, so I'm waiting for her to step up her game.)

=======================================

Also, Dragon is terrible, terrible, terrible, except WJ's coaching comment isn't something I'd expect from one teammate to another. I feel like there's something off in Simba's reactions to the n00bs (particularly how quickly he dismissed Dragon as innocent, even though he made a big deal about Igor's unexplained innocent reads--almost as an afterthought.)

Hey, Dragon, question. Say Simba wasn't RI. Would he post fewer "important facts and figures"? What do you believe he'd do instead?

Give five examples of "important facts and figures" that Simba has posted.

Also, tell us what preparation you've done for this game. Did you read the wiki? Did you read past games? Did you ask advice from someone?

[House Sunglass]

Why do I suppose that WW and Krakatoa are FMs?

Because their posts are quite strange as for me.

In my opinion:

Both of them don't want to contradict with somebody, so they post "slippery" posts, where they more defend somebody then attack.

And they are good in attacking newbies. Because it's easier to do it.

Maybe something of that wasn't right, but it's my impression of reading their posts.

Why do I choose WW? Because of her quickly revoting against Malc. I don't like her reason, that Malc wanted to spoil voting.

[House Dondarrion]

My suspect pool is still Simba, Edward, Dragon, Sooty, and to a lesser extent Garfield. Innocent Mexal is normally a lot more in your face and controversial. This game, he's been very reasonable and safe and low-profile. Even on D1, he didn't try to stir to pot or provoke reactions. And I REALLY don't buy his kneejerk clearing of Simba--maybe it's because I got the exact opposite impression as he did. Either he's symping Simba (seriously, why does Simba seem to have so many symps?), or he's trying to avoid a confrontation with him. Edward is normally much more sceptical and aggressive. Yet I feel he's only focused on a few players this game.

Feel free to meta me. I haven't played in ages and I play the way my time dictates. Is there anything in what I've said that makes you think I'm suspicious? Go ahead and reread me. I'll wait.

[House Targaryen]

It is day 2.

12 players remain: Edward, Ernst Blofeld, Garfield, Humpty Dumpty, Krakatoa, Miss Marple, Puff the Magic Dragon, Showgirl Barbie, Simba, Sooty, The Mummy, Wonder Woman.

7 votes are needed for a conviction or 6 to go to night.

2 votes for Garfield (Krakatoa, Showgirl Barbie)

1 vote for Puff the Magic Dragon (Wonder Woman)

1 vote for The Mummy (Simba)

1 vote for Simba (The Mummy)

1 vote for Wonder Woman (Ernst Blofeld)

1 vote for Miss Marple (Puff the Magic Dragon)

2 votes for Krakatoa (Miss Marple, Edward.)

3 players have not voted: Garfield, Humpty Dumpty, Sooty.

[Magic Mirror]

Feel free to meta me. I haven't played in ages and I play the way my time dictates. Is there anything in what I've said that makes you think I'm suspicious? Go ahead and reread me. I'll wait.

In all honesty, it's more what you haven't said.

I do agree with some of the observations you've made this game (although I think Kat's tone of posting comes across as innocent on gut. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't she hate being evil? I also don't see her as killing Igor.)

[House Sunglass]

Damn it. Mina, I believe that you are citizen.%)

[House Dondarrion]

In all honesty, it's more what you haven't said.

I do agree with some of the observations you've made this game (although I think Kat's tone of posting comes across as innocent on gut. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't she hate being evil? I also don't see her as killing Igor.)

Yea, she hates being evil. Don't see how that has any relevance though.

Why don't you see her killing Igor?

[Magic Mirror]

Blofeld: :love:

Edward: It has relevance because if she was evil, we'd probably know it by now? But she's been posting a lot, seems relaxed and comfortable in the thread, and says whatever weird theory comes to her mind. Admittedly, I've never seen Kat as evil, so I don't know if she can fake it.

I don't see her killing Igor firstly because he trusted her (possible he nailed her partner, but Igor wasn't really after any player in particular's head). Secondly, her reaction to the death felt very much like, "Why would anyone want to kill that crazy mafiascum guy?"

[House Wythers]

I'll redact my post so you'll see what was the point. I can delete all words in that Garfield's qoute - leaving only this part: " I'd be lying if I said I had a clue."

It's too damn bad worded to come from innocent mouth.

Too bad worded to come from an innocent mouth? Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

@ Garfield:

I'm sure you will be lynched today. How do you feel about that?

Why are you ***? Does this game look too boring for your liking? Why?

Alright. I know we aren't supposed to talk meta, but you have me at a bit of a disadvantage. a bell has been rung here, and I'd like to explain myself, but I don't really understand the nature of the accusation against me. Are you saying I come on here and read sometimes without posting? Is that what you were trying to say? I do. Sometimes I don't have a lot of time and often I don't have anything especially useful to say. When you post just for the sake of posting you start talking sh*t. Not that you'd know anything about that. Anyhow, I've got to go to work. It's going to be another wild day, but I'll do my best to pop in if I get a chance. I'll even make useless check in post if I have nothing important to say. -_-

Ernst Edward - I did give my thoughts on youErnst and Marple. I think it was about an hour or two after I said I would get to it.

[House Baratheon]

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

This is the exact copy of my answer to Mummy's accusations. Usually innocents don't remebmer such sort of small things which others said to each other. Which proves once again a close connection between Garfield and Mummy does exist.

[House Sunglass]

Ernst - I did give my thoughts on you and Marple. I think it was about an hour or two after I said I would get to it.

You mixed me with Edward. He asked you about it.

[Magic Mirror]

Um...this is awkward. Rereading the thread, I'm finding Simba's D1 questions much more natural in context. I also didn't notice Blofeld's vote for Simba and sheeping of Igor's read on Dragon (although I should maybe trust Barbie's judgment that this is how kalaw plays as innocent).

This is depressing. Someone please nightkill me tonight.